Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Good god, man. You spectacularly botched your original proposal. That should have been the end of it. Instead, we all have to suffer through your inability not to have the last word. Or indeed thousand words. That's cruel & unusual collective punishment, that is. To protect you from further poor judgment, I've revoked your posting privileges to these lists. You're not being cancelled. The right to publish to every Guixer's inbox has always been based on whitelists of folks who could be trusted with it. You could still post, though I suggest you give it a rest. You'll just be queued with the spammers & the trolls & occasional new user -- alas, in that order :-) -- pending approval. Since I'll defer to a majority of maintainers for that, I don't imagine it will be swift. Kind regards, T G-R Sent on the go. Excuse or enjoy my brevity.
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Hi, Ludovic Courtès writes: > Taylan, > > You have been asked repeatedly to stop and yet, you just reiterated what > we know has already proven to be hurtful. That’s enough. I agree. Let's put an end to this and related threads that don't further our project in any positive way. The Guix maintainers will meet tomorrow and discuss what can be done to avoid such situation in the future. Taylan, until our decision is made, I'd like to ask you to cease any discussion on this topic in any of the Guix communication spaces. If there's some change you'd like to propose to the CoC, please consult with upstream, and do it respectfully (even if/when they refuse). I offer my apologies to everyone for not reacting earlier. Sincerely, Maxim
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Taylan, You have been asked repeatedly to stop and yet, you just reiterated what we know has already proven to be hurtful. That’s enough. Some things are indeed not up for debate, and the spirit of the code of conduct is one of them. As I return from vacation, I see that long thread that immediately went off-topic, but more importantly evidently turned out to be unwelcoming and hurtful. This has no place in this project. This is the very meaning of the pledge that the project’s code of conduct is. Let’s keep this a place where we can hack the good hack and enjoy each other’s company. Ludo’.
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Taylan, You asked me to take the time to explain the hurt you caused, and I did. I spent a whole day on it. It was not easy. In response you provided a long justification backing up the very thing you were asked not to do, the very thing identified as causing this much hurt. But you've made it, beyond a doubt, abundantly clear that this is exactly what you intended to do, at least. I hope we never see something unfold like this on this, or any related, mailing list again. - Christine
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Just to keep it clear, Taylan, You didn't in any case listen to what I actually said which was that you are forcing us to have this debate. You don't care if we want or we don't. I don't want to have this discussion and you are still pushing. I never said you were wrong or not, just wanted you to stop. I wanted you to stop before it was too late for everyone, and you didn't. I guess *your* views are more important than that. In any case, let me tell you something. You could have been a more intelligent person and just directly propose an update on the CoC that follows what upstream does and you'd get absolutely no opposition. The only reason why Zimoun's update on the CoC had some opposition was because of the noise you provoked before. Instead, you decided to make noise and propose a change that had some discussion upstream. Why? I don't know. That's something only you can explain. If you really wanted to change the CoC, that would be the most intelligent and innocuous way to do it. Even the people who argued with you said they were ok with the update! Seriously, at this point I don't understand what you were expecting from this conversation. You already knew it was a convoluted topic, you knew you were going to hurt people... You did all this *because* of that, not regardless. It's more than obvious you wanted to make the noise. You were poking the community to see how we responded. It's obvious you have personal issues with the topic. But as I already stated, this is a *software project*. This is not a place for your personal fights or for social experiments. The only thing that will remain is that you had the chance to decide and you decided to make this circus. Congratulations. PS: I also want to congratulate Zimoun for the "best apology of the year" prize. I'm completely amazed. The way the apology turns to be you just blaming others... An absolute masterpiece. PS2: Yes, I'm upset.
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Hi Christine & co., This will be my last mail on this topic. It's addressed to everyone. Thank you for putting so much time into your response. I'm responding late because I had too much anxiety to open my mail client, and it looks like my gut feeling was not wrong. I'm sad to say that I have to disagree with many aspects of your message, and it seems we will simply have to leave it at disagreement. If I were to start enumerating all the things that I disagree with, we would be right back at square one, and nobody wants that. At the same time, I must provide some reasoning as to why I'm responding in such a way after we've both put an enormous amount of effort into building up empathy. Of course, I will continue to have respect and empathy for you as a person; it's just our perspectives on the matter at hand that seem impossible to reconcile, and I will try to express why I've come to that conclusion. --- The way I've experienced this whole situation is as follows. Despite my repeated attempts to focus on the principle of mutual respect for different world-views, others seem mainly interested in trying to explain why the world-view around sex-based discrimination is somehow wrong and bad, and should not be respected. At the same time, it was made very clear that, had I attempted to argue against the notion that said view is wrong and bad, it would have been seen as proof that I'm trying to argue for a wrong and bad view and thereby hurt people in the community. In essence, it comes down to "it's wrong, and it's not up for debate, because it's wrong." --- Let me clarify again that I understand and acknowledge that a debate on the views themselves would be deeply hurtful. That's why I've tried so hard to avoid that, and asked what part of my mails gave the wrongful impression that I even had any such intention. And frankly, I find your answer to that somewhat convoluted. Yes, I've mentioned in passing that I agree with radfem views. That was for the sake of transparency, as pretending to be a neutral third party would have been manipulative. I can see that I shouldn't have used the phrase "male-born people." Something like "people who don't know what it's like being born with a female body" might have been more appropriate, but I doubt that changing that one part of that one email would have made that much a difference. (There's also a point to be made about brevity but anyway.) All in all, I've gotten the impression that the issue with my mails was less that I've said something to invalidate trans experiences, and more that I've dared to suggest that a view based on different experiences should be respected equally. Of course, if you look closer into said views based on other experiences, you won't take long before finding claims that invalidate yours, but that goes both ways. Such are conflicting philosophies. It's not different with views on religion or politics. Such is a pluralistic society. --- Now one might ask, why am I so "fixated" on this topic, when clearly the view I've offered is considered hostile. If people feel *so* strongly about those views being hurtful, why not just drop it? It's very easy to just paint me as "this weird guy obsessed with controversial views." Well, I've tried to explain, but now that I think about it I might not have been clear, as I was trying to avoid debate and keep my messages brief. I will touch on one specific thing, to serve as an example. Morgan introduced the term "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist" (TERF) and you've used it throughout your message... By the way, Morgan, I'm sorry for not addressing you directly earlier, it's just that I was trying to avoid debate on the subject matter itself and your message seemed mainly like a debate starter. Responding to Christine, on the other hand, seemed urgently necessary. But now I want to use the term "TERF" as a demonstration as to why I feel so strongly about mutual respect for both views in this whole debacle, insofar we want the Guix community to be inclusive to everyone who wants to improve Guix. --- I know feminists who, as part of being labeled as "TERF" and subsequent treatment by "pro-trans" (in name only IMO) activists, have: - Been forced out of their job (firing, or forced resignation) - Had torrents of physical (and sexualized) threats sent their way - Had their meetings disrupted by mobs of masked individuals - Been straight up physically assaulted (resulting in charges) - Had said assault be publicly celebrated on social media - Have been followed by people shouting "I hope you get r*ped" And more. Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter had the words "Kill TERFs" written on the windows of a building they used, and the carcass of a rodent nailed on the door frame. Vancouver Women's Library was met with a group of vandals upon their opening, who wrote similar things on their door and damaged books. (I'm too tired for citation-collecting but feel free to ask
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Okay. Now a longer reply. I am taking a substantial portion of my day to do this. I think there is a lot more going on here than even appears at the surface. So I have re-read everything that has been said so far and am doing my best to take care in what I write here. I hope it's of some greater help and contribution for the health and well being of this community, which I cherish. Taylan Kammer writes: > Hi Christine, > > Thank you for opening up. It was definitely not apparent to me that you > had such a reaction to the thread. As we know, text doesn't convey the > nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial > emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed. Had I realized > that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have > responded differently. For whatever it's worth, at the point that I composed the email, I was anxious. > My heartfelt apologies in that regard. Apology (personally) accepted. I can't speak for others of course, but it is my hope that we as a community can find healing and understanding and move forward. And I believe you when you say this was not your intent. I also appreciate you being open and thoughtful throughout the rest of this email. Know that this, and the previous, emails were not easy for me to write. I wrote them from a position of disclosure and vulnerability. But not writing them would be worse. I am glad I did write it, because (and obviously, I won't talk about the specifics), I received replies from some folks in private saying they felt their experiences mirrored and it may have affected their participation in Guix, and had already affected their feeling of safety and self-identity. Not to mention my own felings. > For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in > the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things > as well. Certainly not a thing requied to do, but I appreciate it. > Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the > thread might ever think. I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as > well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an > important role in the development of my severe chronic depression. > > I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as > open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me > much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into > too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments > throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of > severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago. I'm sorry to hear it. > The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in > the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have > not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on, > which might be why I was able to respond a few more times... I am sorry, again, to hear about your dealing with depression, or that you have had to undergo any breakdowns at all. As for "partly hostile responses", I'd like to respond to this more later, at the end of this thread. > I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015. Near (then byuu) helped me > revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's > built. After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also > briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him. > We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and > respect for him. The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me. > > Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind > the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has > a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a > potential future bullying target or something. So far I've been spared, > but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web > search away. > > All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at > no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone. I'm truly sorry you had to experience that. Nobody deserves that. Though (and not to undo the previous two sentences) I will say, the choice of "he" for Near gave me most pause in this email, given the thread's existing context of gender consierations, and that Near identified as nonbinary as far as I understand, and that this and their autism were partly why they were bullied into suicide... > I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending > the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be > respected on equal regard to the one that's already correctly respected. > > The reason I've felt strongly about that, pressing me to reiterate the > position in the subsequent thread by Zimoun, was of course not some > twisted wish to cause hurt. Rather,
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Thank you for this response and for sharing some of your own experiences. I just want to address this issue: >The key reason the thread / my mails have caused hurt seems to be that >they've come across as an attempt to debate transgender experiences. >What I've not been able to understand is how that happened, since I >actually tried very hard from the beginning to make it as clear as >possible that I had no such intention. I think that the main reason that this thread turned contentious is the body of rhetoric you were referencing. In an earlier part of the thread, you said: >Not to hide anything: personally, I ascribe to views (broadly, radical >feminism) which contradict some key aspects of the transgender movement. >However, that's irrelevant in this context. Whatever your intentions were, the rhetoric you were using to argue your point comes from the discourse of Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism, that is not irrelevant in this context. You were using the same talking points that people use to bully and harass trans people in person and online and others in positions of power in my country and across the globe are actively using to reject the lived experiences of transgender individuals and deny them basic human rights (like access to health care). This is why your proposal elicited a trauma response for some people. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that this was not your intention but for many people in the world and in the Guix community your argument cannot be separated from this context. For my own part, conversations about what benefits [cis-]women in a community without including any [cis-]women in the conversation (though from my persepctive as a feminist, I would argue that Liliana and Christine's input as women should have been heeded as such) ties into a centuries-long patriarchal trend of talking around women about their best interests instead of speaking with them about their needs. I hope you do not view this as an attack, I am merely framing this conversation within broader contexts that led this thread to cause harm to members of the community since you asked us why it had this unintended impact. Best, Morgan On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:03 PM Taylan Kammer wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Thank you for opening up. It was definitely not apparent to me that you > had such a reaction to the thread. As we know, text doesn't convey the > nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial > emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed. Had I realized > that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have > responded differently. > > My heartfelt apologies in that regard. > > For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in > the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things > as well. > > --- > > Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the > thread might ever think. I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as > well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an > important role in the development of my severe chronic depression. > > I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as > open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me > much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into > too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments > throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of > severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago. > > The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in > the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have > not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on, > which might be why I was able to respond a few more times... > > I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015. Near (then byuu) helped me > revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's > built. After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also > briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him. > We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and > respect for him. The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me. > > Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind > the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has > a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a > potential future bullying target or something. So far I've been spared, > but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web > search away. > > All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at > no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone. > > I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending > the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be > respected
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
I'll just add my five cents here and leave the conversation: > Reading over my mails, I just don't understand why they might have been > misunderstood so badly. If you could shed some light on that, I would be > very grateful! It would certainly help me avoid mistakes in the future, > if I were to talk about these matters in a different place. It's what happens when you over-rationalize other people's feelings or you talk freely about some subjects people is not comfortable with. You didn't take a good decision, you didn't evaluate it and you are still surprised for what it happened. Don't think, feel instead, and you'll understand. The problem is not the tone or the content in my opinion, but the noise, and (in purpose or not) you made a lot of it. This thread made people feel uncomfortable and questioned, which might be right for conversations you have with your friends or when there's a consent from both sides, but this is a *software* project and you forced people to see messages they probably didn't expect or they didn't want to read. Even with that some had the courage to tell you to stop, and here we are still... What I don't understand is why is people surprised. This thread was born to blow up since the very first message (and sadly, it's not the only one this week). Best, Ekaitz
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Taylan, thank you for the thoughtful response and to listening to what I said. It's too close to bedtime for me to be able to respond coherently, but I will do so tomorrow. Just wanted to leave this hear in the meanwhile so it was clear you were heard. - Christine Taylan Kammer writes: > Hi Christine, > > Thank you for opening up. It was definitely not apparent to me that you > had such a reaction to the thread. As we know, text doesn't convey the > nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial > emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed. Had I realized > that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have > responded differently. > > My heartfelt apologies in that regard. > > For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in > the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things > as well. > > --- > > Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the > thread might ever think. I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as > well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an > important role in the development of my severe chronic depression. > > I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as > open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me > much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into > too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments > throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of > severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago. > > The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in > the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have > not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on, > which might be why I was able to respond a few more times... > > I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015. Near (then byuu) helped me > revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's > built. After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also > briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him. > We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and > respect for him. The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me. > > Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind > the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has > a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a > potential future bullying target or something. So far I've been spared, > but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web > search away. > > All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at > no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone. > > I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending > the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be > respected on equal regard to the one that's already correctly respected. > > The reason I've felt strongly about that, pressing me to reiterate the > position in the subsequent thread by Zimoun, was of course not some > twisted wish to cause hurt. Rather, it was because that perspective is > based on the experiences of countless AFAB people who have been hurt in > countless ways, just like the perspective that is currently rightfully > encoded in the CoC is based on the experiences of trans people. (I've > also found the sex-based perspective to have strong explanatory power > w.r.t. my personal problems, although I've come to see that as almost > irrelevant in the face of everything else I've learned.) > > --- > > There's one thing I've not been able to understand. I don't know if you > wish to respond any further, but if so, please note that the following > is a completely genuine inquiry, and not meant in any confrontational > manner at all, just like the rest of this email. I think it would be > very helpful for the future if you could help me with this: > > The key reason the thread / my mails have caused hurt seems to be that > they've come across as an attempt to debate transgender experiences. > What I've not been able to understand is how that happened, since I > actually tried very hard from the beginning to make it as clear as > possible that I had no such intention. > > For example, I had said things like: > > "I can assure you that I'm 100% fine with the CoC mentioning gender > identity and, for example, if someone were to make inflammatory > remarks towards the worldview of transgender people in this community, > I wouldn't hesitate opposing that." > > And in the summary: > > "I sincerely have no issue with the CoC protecting people based on > gender identity or other transgender status, and am equally > disinterested as others in having debates about that topic." > > Yet something seems to
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Hi Christine, Thank you for opening up. It was definitely not apparent to me that you had such a reaction to the thread. As we know, text doesn't convey the nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed. Had I realized that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have responded differently. My heartfelt apologies in that regard. For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things as well. --- Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the thread might ever think. I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an important role in the development of my severe chronic depression. I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago. The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on, which might be why I was able to respond a few more times... I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015. Near (then byuu) helped me revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's built. After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him. We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and respect for him. The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me. Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a potential future bullying target or something. So far I've been spared, but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web search away. All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone. I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be respected on equal regard to the one that's already correctly respected. The reason I've felt strongly about that, pressing me to reiterate the position in the subsequent thread by Zimoun, was of course not some twisted wish to cause hurt. Rather, it was because that perspective is based on the experiences of countless AFAB people who have been hurt in countless ways, just like the perspective that is currently rightfully encoded in the CoC is based on the experiences of trans people. (I've also found the sex-based perspective to have strong explanatory power w.r.t. my personal problems, although I've come to see that as almost irrelevant in the face of everything else I've learned.) --- There's one thing I've not been able to understand. I don't know if you wish to respond any further, but if so, please note that the following is a completely genuine inquiry, and not meant in any confrontational manner at all, just like the rest of this email. I think it would be very helpful for the future if you could help me with this: The key reason the thread / my mails have caused hurt seems to be that they've come across as an attempt to debate transgender experiences. What I've not been able to understand is how that happened, since I actually tried very hard from the beginning to make it as clear as possible that I had no such intention. For example, I had said things like: "I can assure you that I'm 100% fine with the CoC mentioning gender identity and, for example, if someone were to make inflammatory remarks towards the worldview of transgender people in this community, I wouldn't hesitate opposing that." And in the summary: "I sincerely have no issue with the CoC protecting people based on gender identity or other transgender status, and am equally disinterested as others in having debates about that topic." Yet something seems to have gone wrong. There was one email, my response to Liliana, in which I've touched on the debate itself, but that was even before your emails so I don't think it was that... Reading over my mails, I just don't understand why they might have been misunderstood so badly. If you could shed some light on that, I would be very grateful! It would certainly help me avoid mistakes in the future, if I were to talk about these matters in a different place. I
Re: An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Hello! I am Morgan Lemmer-Webber, a cis-gendered woman who is a guix user (though not a developer). I have been an active member of the FOSS world, am co-host of a FOSS podcast, and overall have had delightful interactions with the guix community. As Christine said, I do also have a PhD in Art History with a focus on the social history of women, and therefore am well versed in feminist theory. That being said, I have zero interest in being the tolken cis-woman in any group of people. In fact, this type of gender-essentialist conversation being raised by men in an attempt to speak for women (who may or may not want to join a community) without actually consulting women (who may or may not already be in that community) is exactly the type of interaction that would make me take pause before joining a community. On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 6:34 PM Christine Lemmer-Webber < cweb...@dustycloud.org> wrote: > Taylan, I respect you and your work. I don't think you realize how much > hurt you've caused here, and I want to take your contributions at good > faith. But this has continued for days and it has definitely hurt a > lot. > > I just got out of a presentation that I've been in crunchmode preparing > for all week. It was a technically intense presentation with a demo > that required a lot of engineering effort to get there. I was stressed > enough. But the demo went well. Everyone was excited, including me. > > I got off the call, and normally what I would feel after something ended > like that was relief. But I didn't feel relieved. I felt... tired. > > And then I started crying uncontrollably for over an hour. Because the > pressure of the presentation was so great that I had to push down and > push down all the feelings I had about what was happening on this > thread, but when it was over, they overflowed. > > And I don't believe, I don't want to believe, you meant to cause harm or > hurt. You have several messages recently clearly indicating that you > feel you have been accused of things. This is not an accusation. This > is an appeal to empathy. > > Normally I would have left this be quiet, or send an email one-on-one, > when things reached this stage. But I tried to help this conversation > end in quiet, and it hasn't happened, and it's been days. So I'm > relaying my experiences here. > > Taylan Kammer writes: > > > On 24.02.2022 14:21, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote: > >> > >>> I suspect you haven't properly read any of my mails and jumped to > conclusions > >>> based on a quick skim, or something like that. > >> > >> Well, I've been reading them and some people told you to stop and you > still > >> continue. People already told you were bothering them. > > > > I haven't posted anything after Andy and Oliver asked to take it > off-list, > > other than responding to Blake's accusation of course. > > > > Before that, nobody told me to stop or that I was bothering them, unless > I > > missed it? > > I did... > > And maybe you missed it, but I definitely did. I *definitely* did. > This was on Monday, it is now Friday. Here's what I said across my > two emails: > > - I had already expressed that my very first reaction was wanting to >support broader language but NOT to have a debate about trans > experiences: > >> My first thought when looking at the top of this thread was, >> 'well I would be okay with adding a word if it isn't an *entry point* >> for debating trans experiences on list' but it looks like it's likely >> to be so > > - And then I said that, as a person affected, I didn't feel comfortable >debating these topics on a technical mailing list: > >> I'm a transwoman with intersex characteristics. I've certainly >> read a ton about sexual and gender therory, have read plenty of >> books on it and I can say without a doubt that I really just don't >> feel comfortable debating these topics on a technical mailing list. > > - And then, when I saw your email where you had pulled back, I tried >to help everything close in a way that was friendly: > >> Ah okay, hadn't seen this post before I replied. >> >> It seems the issue is closed then. Look forward to everyone getting >> back to hacking. :) > > Shortly thereafter I stepped away from my computer and went downstairs > and went downstairs to prepare lunch. Morgan, my wife (who is also a > Guix user, btw) said, "Are you okay? You look stressed." > > And I relayed what happened on this thread. > > "Is *that* what's being debated on this list? I'm not a Guix > *developer*, but I am a Guix *user*. That kind of gender essentialism > makes me both really want to join the mailing list so I can weigh in > and really *not* want to have to weigh in because I don't want to have > to deal with all that. That's not the kind of community I want to > participate in." > > We co-presented at the FOSDEM room together in the "Lisp but Beautiful, > Lisp for Everyone" talk. A major portion of the
An appeal to empathy on actual hurt caused by this thread
Taylan, I respect you and your work. I don't think you realize how much hurt you've caused here, and I want to take your contributions at good faith. But this has continued for days and it has definitely hurt a lot. I just got out of a presentation that I've been in crunchmode preparing for all week. It was a technically intense presentation with a demo that required a lot of engineering effort to get there. I was stressed enough. But the demo went well. Everyone was excited, including me. I got off the call, and normally what I would feel after something ended like that was relief. But I didn't feel relieved. I felt... tired. And then I started crying uncontrollably for over an hour. Because the pressure of the presentation was so great that I had to push down and push down all the feelings I had about what was happening on this thread, but when it was over, they overflowed. And I don't believe, I don't want to believe, you meant to cause harm or hurt. You have several messages recently clearly indicating that you feel you have been accused of things. This is not an accusation. This is an appeal to empathy. Normally I would have left this be quiet, or send an email one-on-one, when things reached this stage. But I tried to help this conversation end in quiet, and it hasn't happened, and it's been days. So I'm relaying my experiences here. Taylan Kammer writes: > On 24.02.2022 14:21, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote: >> >>> I suspect you haven't properly read any of my mails and jumped to >>> conclusions >>> based on a quick skim, or something like that. >> >> Well, I've been reading them and some people told you to stop and you still >> continue. People already told you were bothering them. > > I haven't posted anything after Andy and Oliver asked to take it off-list, > other than responding to Blake's accusation of course. > > Before that, nobody told me to stop or that I was bothering them, unless I > missed it? I did... And maybe you missed it, but I definitely did. I *definitely* did. This was on Monday, it is now Friday. Here's what I said across my two emails: - I had already expressed that my very first reaction was wanting to support broader language but NOT to have a debate about trans experiences: > My first thought when looking at the top of this thread was, > 'well I would be okay with adding a word if it isn't an *entry point* > for debating trans experiences on list' but it looks like it's likely > to be so - And then I said that, as a person affected, I didn't feel comfortable debating these topics on a technical mailing list: > I'm a transwoman with intersex characteristics. I've certainly > read a ton about sexual and gender therory, have read plenty of > books on it and I can say without a doubt that I really just don't > feel comfortable debating these topics on a technical mailing list. - And then, when I saw your email where you had pulled back, I tried to help everything close in a way that was friendly: > Ah okay, hadn't seen this post before I replied. > > It seems the issue is closed then. Look forward to everyone getting > back to hacking. :) Shortly thereafter I stepped away from my computer and went downstairs and went downstairs to prepare lunch. Morgan, my wife (who is also a Guix user, btw) said, "Are you okay? You look stressed." And I relayed what happened on this thread. "Is *that* what's being debated on this list? I'm not a Guix *developer*, but I am a Guix *user*. That kind of gender essentialism makes me both really want to join the mailing list so I can weigh in and really *not* want to have to weigh in because I don't want to have to deal with all that. That's not the kind of community I want to participate in." We co-presented at the FOSDEM room together in the "Lisp but Beautiful, Lisp for Everyone" talk. A major portion of the talk was about Guix. Another major portion of the talk (since "who's representing feminism" keeps coming up) was about Morgan's experiences *writing her dissertation using a markup language which is secretly a lisp dialect* on "Women and Wool Working in Ancient Rome". Her PhD, Masters, Major, and Minor were all embedded in gender and sexual analysis through the lived experiences of women, primarily cisgender, throughout history. No matter how many books you and I have read on gender and sexuality, I can guarantee you Morgan has read more. Anyway if there are any other cisgender women who have presented about Guix in a video presentation I would be pleased, but as far as I know, she's the only one I've seen do so. Corrections extremely welcome. Active steps to pull more women into our community, strongly encouraged. But at the time I said, "Oh, I think it wrapped up. The person who raised it backpedaled and I tried to be friendly in softening the closing by saying 'cool let's all get back to hacking!' so I don't think we have to worry about it
