Re: [h-cost] Dating an image

[Elena House]

Interesting piece!  It's both right up my alley, and out of my area of
expertise.

I've spent a couple of decades collecting images of ads from about
1860-1970, so in that sense it's definitely my thing.  I LOVE old
advertising/marketing/packaging. Frustratingly, though, just knowing when
the image on the glass is from won't really date the piece with certainty.

This looks like the glass bottle packaging of some commercial product (I'm
not familiar with it, but I'm checking my files and will keep checking)--in
other words, not necessarily directly related to or produced by the
military, although probably marketed to it judging by the clothing, which
reminds me of WW1 women's volunteer or reserve uniforms.  The image and
font used is most similar to the styles used starting around 1910, but
still used into the 1930s (and seen to some degree even later).

However, the people who made logos and packaging and so forth back then
made use of clip art just as we do today; the same basic image (sometimes
with minor changes or updates) might be used and re-used in designs
throughout several years, and companies might go years or decades without
updating the design on their packaging.  So, this bottle may have been
designed in the 1910s, but produced and purchased a decade or more later.
It's likeliest that you'd see this in the wartime 1910s (especially
considering the hairstyle; it could be a bob, but is more likely to be a
late 1910s non-bobbed-but-pulled-back-low female style), but it wouldn't
completely shock me if something like this popped up as late as the 1940s.
It'd be unusual, but not impossible.

The area in which I have zero expertise, beyond a few minutes of searching
on Google, is one that might help you narrow it down better than the actual
image: the fact that the image is printed (or painted) in color on glass.
 (Glass bottle packaging is a whole nother area of research than my own
paper-based ad research; there's lots of people who specialize in and
collect that.)  This is an application of technology that might not have
become common as early as the 1910s; it's also possible that an expert on
the subject could tell what technique was used to get that image on the
glass, and come up with a date based on that.

Long story short, gun to my head I'd say late 1910s, but only if I had to
give my last best guess, and the researchers would be well-served by
getting input from people who know about the history of glass packaging.

Hope this helps, and I'm very interested in any conclusions the people
working on this eventually reach about the dating of the site!
-E House

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Cin  wrote:

> Did you send a picture?  If so, it probably wont come thru on this list.
> You'll need to provide a link if you want people to see anything.
>
> --cin
> Cynthia Barnes
> cinbar...@gmail.com
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Hansen, Lia 
> wrote:
>
> > The piece was found in a midden on a military base in Southern California
> > and is from the 20th century.  We're trying to narrow down the decade.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
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[h-cost] 1930s Joan of Arc reenactment (color photos)

[Elena House]

http://mashable.com/2016/04/18/joan-of-arc-festival/
This is a collection of photos from the 1932 Joan of Arc festival
in Compiégne.  The garb is both very nitpickable, and very awesome.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] searching for 1887 misses' fashion illustrations

[Elena House]

Hrm, thank you both--I'll check those ideas, but I suspect that school
photos won't show traveling clothing.  Also, since the late 1880s is Not My
Period, I probably _won't_ be able to properly extrapolate what the back
would look like! :)  The group setting doesn't really matter, but I'll
still follow up on those.  Thanks!

-E House

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:37 AM, michaela de bruce <
michaela.de.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know I have a number of group photos from the 1880s, but they are
> obviously dressed for the photos.
> http://store.doverpublications.com/0486265331.html I think may be one of
> the books, the other was a huge tome, green cover, just trying to remember
> the name.
>
> https://books.google.co.nz/books/about/Dressed_for_the_Photographer.html?id=8vkzLIrwUXYC_esc=y
>
>
> Oh, http://collection.mccord.mcgill.ca/scripts/advanced_search.php?Lang=1
> has a lot, a lot of photos of the era here. And includes groups :)
>
>
> > Okay, I have an overly specific search challenge/request for the list!
> I'm
> > looking for illustrations (of any sort, as long as they're primary or
> > really
> > really accurate secondary sources) of what upper middle class girls of 9,
> > 15, and 19 years old would wear in the summer of 1887 as they're
> boarding a
> > train for a ride across the US.  To be even MORE specific (and this and
> the
> > train aspect are where I've had trouble with my own searches so far) I'm
> > looking for rear, side, and 3/4 rear views.  The 1880s is decidedly not
> my
> > period--can anyone help me?
> >
> > (This is for a book cover illustration, and okay, period accuracy isn't
> > strictly speaking a requirement, because maybe .05% of readers would
> catch
> > any mistakes, but darn it, _I'd_ know!  You know?)
> >
>
>
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[h-cost] searching for 1887 misses' fashion illustrations

[Elena House]

Okay, I have an overly specific search challenge/request for the list!  I'm
looking for illustrations (of any sort, as long as they're primary or
really really accurate secondary sources) of what upper middle class girls
of 9, 15, and 19 years old would wear in the summer of 1887 as they're
boarding a train for a ride across the US.  To be even MORE specific (and
this and the train aspect are where I've had trouble with my own searches
so far) I'm looking for rear, side, and 3/4 rear views.  The 1880s is
decidedly not my period--can anyone help me?

(This is for a book cover illustration, and okay, period accuracy isn't
strictly speaking a requirement, because maybe .05% of readers would catch
any mistakes, but darn it, _I'd_ know!  You know?)

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Charity Sewing

[Elena House]

I'm still here, although taking a nice long break from sewing--I still
enjoy reading the list, though!

I've been away from my computer a lot lately (I also recently moved, from a
180 yr old house in Vermont to a 1 yr old apartment in TX; quite the
change) so the threads of the list have sort of criss-crossed for me; I'm
not sure if I've actually managed to read all of the posts related to this
topic.

My first thought was that it was historical fiction, but not necessarily
modern historical fiction, if that makes sense.  It could have been written
say in the middle of the 20th century, when this practice might possibly
have occurred to someone--or it could be a result of the earlier pulp
fiction years, and possibly written by a male (who wouldn't know this
didn't sound quite right) under a female pen name.

My second thought was that from what I'm thinking is the original post, by
Carol, I couldn't really tell what era this was supposed to be, or what
class the young woman/women were supposed to belong to.  Surely there would
be a class divide between those who are socially expected to do 'pretty'
work to show off their accomplishments, and those who would feel they were
impressing the people they wanted to impress more by showing off their
usefulness...?  A middle-upper class family's daughter in say, 1880s NYC
would certainly sew different things when a guest was there than a farming
family's daughter in Ohio in the 1940s would.

I still find the idea of cutting a hole in NEW stocking a bit of a stretch,
but if it were a plot point in an
Isn't-Our-Heroine-Just-Too-Angelic-For-Words type of 1910s young adult
pulp, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find myself reading about it; it
sounds like the kind of story meant to show off someone's virtue.

-E House


On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Marjorie Wilser  wrote:

> I vote for fiction. It seems wrong on so many levels. You don’t “cut a
> hole" in a (new!) stocking to darn. You cut a thread and let it ravel a
> little. In that day, I suspect making ANY kind of hole would never have
> happened. You wouldn’t destroy new goods for any reason, much less to make
> busy work.
>
> However, the very idea of them darning stockings in a social setting is
> suspect. It just wouldn’t be done in polite circles. Wish I could help on
> the reference.
>
> ==Marjorie Wilser
>
>  @..@   @..@   @..@
> Three Toad Press
> http://3toad.blogspot.com/
>
>
> > On Dec 18, 2015, at 2:05 PM, aqua...@patriot.net wrote:
> >
> > A young woman is visiting a household with other young women, and they
> are
> > darning some stockings. It would not be proper to give her one of the
> > family's stockings to mend, so they cut a hole in a new stocking for her
> > to darn.
> >
> > The whole idea seems silly to me, because it seems that there would be
> > some new clothing to be made or something for her to do that would not
> > require making busy work. That's why it sounds more like historical
> > fiction.
> >
> > Does it sound familiar to anyone?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > -Carol
>
>
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Re: [h-cost] spam (was need help with Butterick B6074)

[Elena House]

Heh, when you put 'spam' in the title, my gmail seems to automatically put
it in the spam folder, as it did with this thread.   That might even
technically be irony!   (I only saw  rescued it because I was looking for
something else.  Apparently when your business is named 'Ambitious Rubbish'
it also sets off the spam filter a bit too often)

-E House

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Emily Gilbert emchantm...@gmail.com
wrote:

 The pirate mouse on my Google account? Yes, I've made a number of little
 costumed mice (although I'm not doing much with them at the moment).
 They're about 5 tall and very cute, if I do say so myself!  : )

 Emily



 On 2/27/2015 6:52 PM, Lynn Downward wrote:

 And I thought it was just my spam in gmail... I check every other day or
 so, or whenever I feel I'm missing part of the conversation.

 Emily, I love your little mouse picture! Is it something you made?
 LynnD

 On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Emily Gilbert emchantm...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  On 2/27/2015 2:12 PM, Sybella wrote:

  Hm. It looks like the list is only sending me some of the messages in
 this
 conversation. Charlene took a quote from Ann's but I never received
 Ann's
 message at all! I wonder what else I'm missing. :(


  Ann's messages tend to go into my spam folder for some reason - Gmail's
 security settings don't seem to like them.  I've taken to checking my
 spam
 every day so I can rescue anything that's not supposed to be in there.

 Emily
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Re: [h-cost] spam (was need help with Butterick B6074)

[Elena House]

We could just go with 'potted meat product.' :)  Although I honestly have
no clue what sets off the pottedmeatproduct filter sometimes, so who knows!
-E House

On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Emily Gilbert emchantm...@gmail.com wrote:

 Oops!  Sorry about that.  Good to know the filter does that - now I know
 not to use spam in a subject line!

 Emily



 On 3/6/2015 12:47 PM, Elena House wrote:

 Heh, when you put 'spam' in the title, my gmail seems to automatically put
 it in the spam folder, as it did with this thread.   That might even
 technically be irony!   (I only saw  rescued it because I was looking for
 something else.  Apparently when your business is named 'Ambitious
 Rubbish'
 it also sets off the spam filter a bit too often)

 -E House

 On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Emily Gilbert emchantm...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  The pirate mouse on my Google account? Yes, I've made a number of little
 costumed mice (although I'm not doing much with them at the moment).
 They're about 5 tall and very cute, if I do say so myself!  : )

 Emily



 On 2/27/2015 6:52 PM, Lynn Downward wrote:

  And I thought it was just my spam in gmail... I check every other day or
 so, or whenever I feel I'm missing part of the conversation.

 Emily, I love your little mouse picture! Is it something you made?
 LynnD

 On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Emily Gilbert emchantm...@gmail.com
 wrote:

   On 2/27/2015 2:12 PM, Sybella wrote:

   Hm. It looks like the list is only sending me some of the messages in

 this
 conversation. Charlene took a quote from Ann's but I never received
 Ann's
 message at all! I wonder what else I'm missing. :(


   Ann's messages tend to go into my spam folder for some reason -
 Gmail's

 security settings don't seem to like them.  I've taken to checking my
 spam
 every day so I can rescue anything that's not supposed to be in there.

 Emily
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Re: [h-cost] New Topic: Is this a Postmortem Photo

[Elena House]

I'm going to vote post mortem as well, and not just from the appearance of
the child in the photo, but also from the story passed down with it--it
makes sense to me that the reason your grandmother was so eager to get
photos of her next child was because the only one she was able to get of
this child was a post mortem one.  I also think that had the child been
disabled, that story would have been passed down as well, and if the
illness leading to his death was so rapid, it seems unlikely that they
would have taken the photo during those few days when he was probably sick
in bed and in no fit shape for visiting photographers.  Furthermore,
expressions during this era of photography weren't quite THAT stiff (they
no longer had to hold still for the camera for so long); there's actual
emotion going on there, not just pose-for-the-camera faces.  The younger
sister... now, that child is freaked out!

-E House

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Jacqueline Johnson 
jacqueline.m.john...@gmail.com wrote:

 I rather think this *is* a post mortem. Yes, I realize the kids are
 standing, but if you've checked other PM pictures, posing them naturally
 was a thing. And from the looks on those kid's faces...the other big one
 was when a mother had died, you'll see these infant pictures with what
 appears to be a woman holding the (ive)baby from under the sheet. Heavily
 symbolic.
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Re: [h-cost] 1880s hair-styling terms: crimps and fedoras

[Elena House]

Those were both part of one continuous passage; in context, she's getting
ready for bed, then waking up in the middle of the night--no hats involved!
In the previous paragraphs, the writer was talking about how girls from
Runover (which seems to be some sort of prep school or college) feel
superior because they're too high-minded to crimp their hair, but spend
just as much time brushing their hair as they would have spent crimping it.


Anyway, in context, definitely not a hat type of fedora, which makes it all
the weirder! :)

It was published in 1886, although it's written as a series of letters;
this one is dated January 1885.

-E House



On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 1:35 AM, Sybella mae...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hm. I see what you mean. In the first reference, the comparison is made
 about the time spent brushing hair vs brushing the hat clean. And in the
 next, she's using the hat to hide her unstyled hair because she was too
 lazy to set it. She was saying that Charlie would be disappointed with
 her for not having her hair done. But it does say two fedoras, and that she
 fell back asleep with one side undone. Unless she's splitting it down the
 middle, doing a quick twisted bun on each side, and putting the hat over, I
 don't know how she'd get two hats on her head.

 What year was that written?? Maybe there was a styling hair tool called a
 fedora.

 And I'm loving the Sarah B story. I'm going to have to research that
 tonight. :D

 I would like to add this though. If you're planning on wearing a hat, you
 do have to style your hair with the hat in mind. The hat influences the
 style, for sure. I'm not sure if there was ever a hair style that was a
 fedora style but depending on the shape of the hat, or where it sits on
 the head, styling it right is everything.


 On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Elena House exst...@gmail.com wrote:

  Thanks; lovely resources.  I'm definitely familiar with the fedora as a
  hat; I've just never heard of it as a hair styling technique before,
 hence
  my curiosity!
 
  Thanks to Google books and the Ngram viewer (hugely useful for
 etymological
  study), I've managed to track down a possible link.  The fedora was named
  after the hat that Sarah Bernhardt wore during an 1882 play called
 Fedora.
   (Meaning that all those manly men in noir movies were wearing a girl's
  hat...) Perhaps the hairstyle she wore during the play ALSO started a
  fashion for a particular style of curls, and the girl in that passage I
  quoted was setting her curls into the particular style that Sarah B wore
  during the play; it sounds like it must have been one really tight curl
 per
  side, covering the forehead.  (Sadly, I've been unable to find a photo of
  Sarah B in the original fedora hat with her fedora curls.)
 
  Also, I've come to the conclusion that 'crimp' and 'curl' were being used
  as interchangeable words.
 
  -E House
 
 
  On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 11:37 PM, Sybella mae...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   OH!! I forgot! I was going to give you one more link...old videos of
  women
   doing their hair. I love this!
  
   http://frazzledfrau.tripod.com/titanic/hair.htm
  
  
   On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 8:29 PM, Sybella mae...@gmail.com wrote:
  
What a fun topic!!! Love vintage hair styling! And since my hair wont
   hold
a heat curl for more than 35 minutes, I've explored a lot of no-heat
  curl
options. :)
   
A fedora is a particular style of hat. It was quite the norm to give
  hats
a little treatment at the end of every use, especially in the case of
suede, felt or velvet, where a brushing not only knocks the dirt off
  but
refreshes the surface texture. People did this with garments too to
  get a
little more wear out of them between washings, or to keep
 non-washable
garments clean.
   
There are quite a number of ways to achieve curls, without modern
  curling
irons, and women have been doing it since the dawn of time. To me,
   crimp
implies more of a folded, zig-zag type curl than a round curl. Or at
  the
very least, tight and small curls. In the 1880s, many irons existed
 for
hair styling many of which would achieve a crimped look. Even a iron
  for
clothes could be used to curl hair. But I agree that the author is
   implying
that it is a set and air dry style...and that the starring character
 is
being lazy with her beauty routine. LOL!
   
What you suggested are all definite possibilities. While bobby pins
  are a
newer invention, standard hair pins have been around since before the
   birth
of Christ. In addition to pinning curls to your head like 40s pin
  curls,
hair pin curls could be achieved in the same way that hairpin crochet
  is
done; take a small strand, wrap it back and forth on the needles, pin
  the
whole thing in place and let it dry.
   
A twist set creates a more crimped look too. Either you take small
sections of hair and twist the sections together tightly

[h-cost] 1880s hair-styling terms: crimps and fedoras

[Elena House]

I'm writing a novella set in 1887 with three teenage girls as the main
characters, and as a result I've been doing research into the slang  pop
culture and so forth of the time period in New England.  The 1880s are Not
My Era, and I've run across a term-and-a-half that confuse me.

Here's the passage, from The Familiar Letters of Peppermint Perkins, with
the terms and phrases ***starred***.

--
I did begin that very night by not ***doing up any crimps.***  I was going
to wear my hair like Clara's.  She never wears any crimps.  Runover girls
never do, though they have never advanced any sufficiently good reason to
me for not crimping it, for they all look like old fuds with it so, and
they spend just as much and more time brushing and smoothing it ***at night
than I do on my Fedoras.***

Well, I was going to say I didn't do up any; but about three o'clock I woke
up and remembered that I had promised to go skating with Charlie Brood out
to Jamaica the next morning, and I knew any amount of self-improvement
wouldn't make up for the absence of crimps in his eyes, so I just snaked
out of bed and ***up with two Fedoras;*** but no sooner had I got them up
than my conscience began to reproach me for my weakness, and after I got
back into bed I determined that even Charlie Brood's criticisms shouldn't
influence me, and I began to take them down; but you see I was so sleepy,
getting up so suddenly (it all was like a dream), that I only got one down
before I dropped to sleep, and the next morning you ought to have seen what
a fright I looked.  You know how high my forehead is, and shiny.  Well,
there I was with all that shining expanse and ***one little bob on the left
temple***, and I overslept on account of getting up so, and was late, and
before I could do anything Charlie Brood was after me.
--

The crimps part I only find partially confusing; I'm familiar with crimping
as something one does to curl one's hair with hot irons, but not as an
overnight treatment.  Is this a reference to putting one's hair in rags?
Leaving it in braids overnight for braid curls?  Something with hairpins?
 Or...?

The one that really confuses me, though, is the Fedoras.  What on earth
are these?  The context makes it seem pretty clear that this is either
another method of creating curls overnight or another name for overnight
crimps, but what is the actual method, and what does the result look like?
 Or, does the name perhaps refer to the location of the resulting curls,
rather than the method?

Any ideas?

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] 1880s hair-styling terms: crimps and fedoras

[Elena House]

Thanks; lovely resources.  I'm definitely familiar with the fedora as a
hat; I've just never heard of it as a hair styling technique before, hence
my curiosity!

Thanks to Google books and the Ngram viewer (hugely useful for etymological
study), I've managed to track down a possible link.  The fedora was named
after the hat that Sarah Bernhardt wore during an 1882 play called Fedora.
 (Meaning that all those manly men in noir movies were wearing a girl's
hat...) Perhaps the hairstyle she wore during the play ALSO started a
fashion for a particular style of curls, and the girl in that passage I
quoted was setting her curls into the particular style that Sarah B wore
during the play; it sounds like it must have been one really tight curl per
side, covering the forehead.  (Sadly, I've been unable to find a photo of
Sarah B in the original fedora hat with her fedora curls.)

Also, I've come to the conclusion that 'crimp' and 'curl' were being used
as interchangeable words.

-E House


On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 11:37 PM, Sybella mae...@gmail.com wrote:

 OH!! I forgot! I was going to give you one more link...old videos of women
 doing their hair. I love this!

 http://frazzledfrau.tripod.com/titanic/hair.htm


 On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 8:29 PM, Sybella mae...@gmail.com wrote:

  What a fun topic!!! Love vintage hair styling! And since my hair wont
 hold
  a heat curl for more than 35 minutes, I've explored a lot of no-heat curl
  options. :)
 
  A fedora is a particular style of hat. It was quite the norm to give hats
  a little treatment at the end of every use, especially in the case of
  suede, felt or velvet, where a brushing not only knocks the dirt off but
  refreshes the surface texture. People did this with garments too to get a
  little more wear out of them between washings, or to keep non-washable
  garments clean.
 
  There are quite a number of ways to achieve curls, without modern curling
  irons, and women have been doing it since the dawn of time. To me,
 crimp
  implies more of a folded, zig-zag type curl than a round curl. Or at the
  very least, tight and small curls. In the 1880s, many irons existed for
  hair styling many of which would achieve a crimped look. Even a iron for
  clothes could be used to curl hair. But I agree that the author is
 implying
  that it is a set and air dry style...and that the starring character is
  being lazy with her beauty routine. LOL!
 
  What you suggested are all definite possibilities. While bobby pins are a
  newer invention, standard hair pins have been around since before the
 birth
  of Christ. In addition to pinning curls to your head like 40s pin curls,
  hair pin curls could be achieved in the same way that hairpin crochet is
  done; take a small strand, wrap it back and forth on the needles, pin the
  whole thing in place and let it dry.
 
  A twist set creates a more crimped look too. Either you take small
  sections of hair and twist the sections together tightly. Or you take one
  section and twist it around something else. Then, once it is fully try,
 you
  carefully un-twist. It's all the same process, whether you use only your
  own hair or wrap around something else.
 
  The twist out set is done today, usually on kinky curly hair but even
  those with straight hair can achieve a similar look. Do a web search for
  twist out to see what I'm talking about. :)
 
  Or watch this girl. She uses drinking straws and bobby pins to achieve
  no-heat crimpy curls. I love it!
 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBik0XlFZKE
 
 
  And for something older (1700s), check out this lady's video on paper
  curls. I know you were leaning toward no-heat styling, but there's a
  catalogue in the beginning of the video that makes this worth watching
 for
  your book research. A few pages of hair tools are shown.
 
  As an alternative to rolling the hair around a heated rod, one could have
  wrapped the ends in paper, then rolled up the hair and folded the paper
  over the ends to hold it in place. Then, iron it with a flat iron, let it
  cool and pull off the paper to reveal springy curls. I had to hunt but
  here's a youtube link demonstrating it.
 
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP9PJsY5__4
 
 
  On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Elena House exst...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  I'm writing a novella set in 1887 with three teenage girls as the main
  characters, and as a result I've been doing research into the slang 
 pop
  culture and so forth of the time period in New England.  The 1880s are
 Not
  My Era, and I've run across a term-and-a-half that confuse me.
 
  Here's the passage, from The Familiar Letters of Peppermint Perkins,
  with
  the terms and phrases ***starred***.
 
  --
  I did begin that very night by not ***doing up any crimps.***  I was
 going
  to wear my hair like Clara's.  She never wears any crimps.  Runover
 girls
  never do, though they have never advanced any sufficiently good reason
 to
  me for not crimping it, for they all look

[h-cost] Catacombs of Priscilla

[Elena House]

Recently, I was puttering around on the internet, following increasingly
unrelated links.  You know, as one does.  Anyway, I ran into several images
from the Catacombs of Priscilla in Rome.  The catacombs date from the 2nd
to the 5th centuries, but what caught my attention were a couple of
frescoes dated to around the middle of the 3rd century.
This is the first one that caught my attention:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fiery_furnace_01.jpg
which lead me to quickly find this:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/20/article-2510473-1983CD820578-7_634x415.jpg
detail:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/20/article-2510473-1983D8F20578-248_634x402.jpg(It's
the sleeves/sleeveheads that are getting me here.)

Now, 3rd century Italian is definitely not my era/area, but... am I the
only one whose reaction is HUH?!  Early 17th century ain't my period
either, but I'd have a lot easier time believing that was what I was
looking at than -=3rd=- century.

Is anyone particularly familiar with this era/area?  I'd love to know more
about these garments, or anything even vaguely resembling them during this
time period.  Yes, these are religious frescoes, making them automatically
questionable as costume reference pics.  But where would they even come up
with the ideas?  I haven't managed to see images of every other fresco
dating to around the same period in the catacombs, but I've seen many of
them; the clothing in them is much more what my not-my-period eyes would
have expected.  You know, like this:
http://catholicphilly.com/media-files/2013/11/CATACOMBS-GOOGLE1.jpg

Anyway.  Someone please either tell me I'm imagining it.  I mean, I don't
really think I'm looking at the 3 musketeers caught in the act of time
travel; I expect it's probably even possible to kirtle up a tunic into this
silhouette.  But I'd really like to know more about the clothing of this
era/area, and exactly how much they knew about fitting sleeves in Italy in
the 3rd century.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Medieval brides wore red.

[Elena House]

I wonder if the origin of this one lies with the word 'scarlet' rather than
'red'?  Or, alternately, with kermes and cochineal, rather than madder?

Generally speaking, cross-culture and cross-era, a bride is going to wear
her fanciest dress, so it seems quite reasonable that luxury fabrics or
expensive dyes would become associated with wedding gowns.  After all, we
tend to think about silk satin and delicate lace and so forth, don't we?

-E House


On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:32 AM, otsisto otsi...@socket.net wrote:

 The only time I have heard that brides in Medieval times wore red (in a
 vague broad brush way) was a Dear Abby letter that said the fashion
 designer
 Edith Head had told the person who wrote the letter to Abby. There was
 something about in Classical Roman times the bride wore orange/red veils
 that covered the head and body, prior to the medieval statement.


 De

 -Original Message-
 I just read the comment that medieval brides wore red in a book that does
 not attribute any source for the statement but has a bibliography and
 index.
 The book makes me itchy because it is such a hybrid of fact and fiction.

 Anyway, my question is this: is that statement based on fact?  If so, what
 are the sources for this?  Was it true for all cultures?  Only Italy or ...
 ?

 It's an intriguing thing to say, and I would love, please, to learn more
 about bride colors in the Middle Ages, or, rather, specifically for me the
 late eleventh and twelfth centuries in southern Italy, if there is such
 specific information.

 Thanks, all.

 Nancy


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Re: [h-cost] used Bernina

[Elena House]

I missed the start of this thread, so apologies if this has already been
mentioned or doesn't really apply to what you asked!

However, if you want an old Bernina, I highly suggest an 830 Record
Electronic, which in spite of the name is pretty much mechanical, apart
from the fact that you do need to plug it in (apparently the Electronic
part has something to do with how the foot pedal works; the machine is
supposed to have full power at all speeds).  About a year ago, I inherited
one from my grandma-in-law, along with several dozen attachments, and it is
a thing of beauty and a joy forever.

It has 20 mechanical stitches--not all of them merely decorative--along
with zig-zag and straight.  It has 5 needle positions (far left, kinda
left, center, kinda right, far right), and adjustable stitch width and
length, top and bottom tension control, an automatic bobbin winder, and a
knee control presser foot lifter.  It has a basting stitch option, does
darning, has an automatic buttonhole system, and comes with attachments to
help you do eyelets, although not automatically.

It's also strong enough to go through several layers of leather, which is
good, because I'm currently using mine to make the husband a Jim Morrison
style leather jacket.  I know that my Gma-in-law used it a lot while she
had it, and apart from a piece being broken off before I got it, it was
still in excellent condition after all that use.  I took it for repair and
a tuneup, and the guy I took it to went on and on about how strong a
machine it is, and how major an event it must have taken to break that
piece--like a car crash, or something.  (Wish I knew what actually
happened!)  Anyway, although he had to do a bit of work to track down the
replacement part, he was able to do so, and the repair and the thorough
tune-up that I had requested together only came to around $90--I think the
part wound up being around $20.

It was so popular that Bernina revived the name in 2009 for their
top-of-the-line model, but the kind I'm talking about was made in the 1970s
and can be gotten for a few hundred on eBay, whereas the new kind is many
thousands, and nowhere near as tough as my old one. Mine is a '79, and
according to the Bernina site they started making them in '71; the next
model (the 930) came out in '82, and is also good, but doesn't have the
reputation of the 830 Record.

The only truly bad thing I've ever heard about it is that some don't like
the foot pedal, or that the pedal goes bad after a few decades, but can be
replaced with a universal one.  When I first used mine, I hated the pedal,
but after a couple of hours I got used to it and now feel no need to
replace it.  The only other thing that annoys me at all, although I'm
slowly getting used to it, is that in order to go in reverse you push a
lever up, rather than down, unlike all my previous machines.  It slows me
down, but then I don't go in reverse that often, so I can live with it.

Oh, but it is kind of hard to figure out without the manual.  It's not too
hard to find a copy for sale or even for free download online, though.
When I first got mine, I couldn't find the manual, so I looked around and
managed to download it in PDF form somewhere (can't remember where, sadly)
...although of course, shortly thereafter I found the original manual.

I'm keeping my 830 as long as I possibly can!

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Sherlock Holmes

[Elena House]

I watched an interview with Robert Downey Jr. when the first one came out,
and he made the excellent point that there actually was a great deal of
action in the SH stories... it was just written in a very glazed over sort
of way.  They gave chase, or, After a struggle, they apprehended the
culprit, and so forth.  (I paraphrase.)  The action's there, just not
described in the kind of dramatic detail that modern novelists indulge in.
Not even when there's a waterfall involved.

-E House


On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Julie jtkn...@jtknits.cts.com wrote:

 What Charlene said.  I haven't seen the 2nd one but I liked the first one.
  I own all the SH stories and am a big fan.  I hate how the movies make
 Watson out to be a fumbling idiot.  He was a returning Afghanistan war
 veteran.  And they made Holmes out to be a robot.  Also not true.

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Re: [h-cost] Winter flowers for New England?

[Elena House]

As a Vermonter (for at least one more winter) whose back porch door
has been completely taken over by bittersweet vines, I can tell you
that, while very pretty at the right time of year, it won't likely be
too pretty on Dec 29; even now, the berries on mine are already
falling off and shriveling up, and the outer flower-like casing
thingies around the berries themselves look all brownish and nasty
instead of the nice pumpkin orange they are during the pretty part of
fall.

Even if the part of New England you had in mind is further south, say
Connecticut, the bittersweet would almost certainly already be too far
gone for bouquet making.  Some artificial flower-making projects among
the relatives sounds like a lovely idea to me--maybe made of scraps of
shattered/otherwise unusable silk, perhaps with some sentimental value
to them?  I could swear I've run across several sets of
how-to-make-artificial-flowers instructions in Victorian ephemera of
the sort your characters might be likely to have run across, although
I'm not enough of a masochist to try to hunt them down now... =}

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Winter flowers for New England?

[Elena House]

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Elena House exst...@gmail.com wrote:
  I could swear I've run across several sets of
 how-to-make-artificial-flowers instructions in Victorian ephemera of
 the sort your characters might be likely to have run across, although
 I'm not enough of a masochist to try to hunt them down now... =}

...And I just noticed the 1830 bit, so ignore the Victorian part,
please!  Still, it seems like a skill that wouldn't be too outlandish
to find locally--maybe the sister-in-law has a milliner friend.

-E House

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[h-cost] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn

[Elena House via LinkedIn]

LinkedIn





Elena House requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn:
  
--

Suzanne,

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Elena

Accept invitation from Elena House
http://www.linkedin.com/e/-dojq1w-grdsai29-3u/Tx5konoaoeHBw7nw7wQqwt8LNVXiRUO/blk/I1609183779_3/1BpC5vrmRLoRZcjkkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYPnPATdPcUcjAMdz59bRBPqBAQpzdbbP4UcPgOdPgSe3cLrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/

View invitation from Elena House
http://www.linkedin.com/e/-dojq1w-grdsai29-3u/Tx5konoaoeHBw7nw7wQqwt8LNVXiRUO/blk/I1609183779_3/3dvejsTcPwNej0SckALqnpPbOYWrSlI/svi/
 
--

DID YOU KNOW you can showcase your professional knowledge on LinkedIn to 
receive job/consulting offers and enhance your professional reputation? Posting 
replies to questions on LinkedIn Answers puts you in front of the world's 
professional community.
http://www.linkedin.com/e/-dojq1w-grdsai29-3u/abq/inv-24/
 
-- 
(c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation
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[h-cost] (x-post) looking for illuminations of women in armor

[Elena House]

I need help with an image search!  I'm looking for
illuminations/miniatures/tapestries of women in armor, c1330-1530.
Allegories, saints, whatever--the only realism I need in the image is
that it really be what people c1330-1530 thought a woman would look
like, wearing armor!

There's one 15thC image in particular that I'm remembering--a woman in
hip-length gold armor, on horseback, possibly tilting--but even if I
find that exact image, I'm still interested in everything else out
there.  I'm most interested in late 15thC stuff, but the larger
1330-1530 time frame would all work nicely, and if there's anything
especially cool outside of that wider time frame, I'm interested too.
Paintings would probably have too high a level of detail for what I'm
after, but again, if there's a really cool one, I'm still interested!

PS--I've already been through the larsdatter.com collection. =}

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] help identifying picture

[Elena House]

Well, being somewhat familiar with the site in the caption at the
bottom of the image, I'd definitely view it with suspicion, as
evidenced by this:
http://chzhistoriclols.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/funny-pictures-history-disco-duck-what-manner-of-plainchant-be-this.jpg
from the same general site

Still, they must have gotten the image from somewhere, so now I'm curious too.

-E House


 -Original Message-
 http://images.cheezburger.com/imagestore/2010/9/9/330d9013-0b7f-468b-9c3a-b2
 2044bb4e02.jpg
 Julie
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Re: [h-cost] Silly books (was: pouting about R. Wedding coverage)

[Elena House]

Thank you both, and drat!  Thanks to my kindle I am now hopelessly addicted.

-E House

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Jean Waddie
anne.montgome...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Yes indeed - the author is Gail Carriger.

 On 01/05/2011 12:11, Genie wrote:
 Oh, you're talking about the Stempunk/romance series, Soulless I think.
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[h-cost] Silly books (was: pouting about R. Wedding coverage)

[Elena House]

I love very silly books featuring hideous Victorian hats.  Who's the
author and what's the series?

-E House

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Jean Waddie
anne.montgome...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Re hats:  I'm reading a series of (very silly) books at the moment, set in
 Victorian London, where the heroine's best friend is noted for her utterly
 hideous taste in hats.  Perhaps the writer has been watching certain younger
 royals?

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[h-cost] Dating vintage sewing stuff

[Elena House]

Speaking of costume-related inheritances, I recently inherited my
93-year old grandma-in-law's sewing stuff--all of it, including some
stuff she probably should have thrown away 50 years ago!  But since I
find old wooden bobbins with only a couple of feet of thread left on
them fascinating, I'm definitely not complaining.

There are some definite scores.  I now own a Bernina 830 (original,
non-computerized sort) along with 50 zillion accessories, and a beast
of a White 844 that--if sheer weight of the machine is anything to go
by--can probably sew through about 50 layers of heavy upholstery
without even noticing.  I haven't gone through more than about 1/4 of
the fabric (a lot of it is still in storage halfway across the
country) but my linen and silk and bizzaro funky 60s  70s prints
collections have already expanded greatly, along with my vintage
sewing pattern collection (though sadly g-ma-in-law was about a foot
shorter and much much thinner than I--sigh).  And I now have every
different kind of sewing notion imaginable, and cool vintage buttons,
and so many spools of thread that I'm having serious trouble figuring
out how to store it all.  And the amazing antique laces that she
inherited from HER grandmother. oh, it is to drool!  OK, sorry,
I'll stop bragging.

(See, there are advantages to the scarcity of modern seamstresses: if
g-ma-in-law's daughters or nieces or other blood relatives had been
into it, I probably would have lost my chance to go on this fun
treasure hunt.)

Anyway, looking through all these old sewing notions, and having an
interest in history, I can't help but wonder how old some of this
stuff IS.  G-ma-in-law started sewing young, so for all I know some of
these things could be 85+ years old, although I think most of the
oldest stuff is more likely from the 50s and 60s, and I know there's
plenty of stuff from the 80s and early 90s.

So my question is, does anyone have any resources to suggest that
might help me date some of this stuff?  Or any highly specific
memories, such as in 1963 thread stopped coming on wooden spools and
went up to $0.12/50 yds?  Or anything else that could help me to not
throw away something cool?

-E yay! House

PS--as I go through the collection, I plan to start offering stuff
that I don't expect to ever use up for free to anyone who is willing
to pay the shipping.  I expect to move within the next year or two,
and I really really don't want to have to move boxes upon boxes of
quilting fabric or 80s pastel suiting or appliques of someone else's
initials

PPS--uhm, yeah, no, not the antique lace.  Mine. =}
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Re: [h-cost] Are you guys willing to test a Facebook business page?

[Elena House]

I've Liked it as well, and as you probably know, you're well over the
25 fan threshold by now.  So, I tried searching for you, and learned
that while a search for Lavolta Press throws up a bunch of
completely irrelevant results, a search for Lavolta results in your
business page as the first hit.  Likewise, searching for Lavolta
Press [in quotes] leads to only your page.  So, it is a Facebook
problem, just not one caused by 25 fans!
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[h-cost] historical socks

[Elena House]

I am reminded of an advertising pamphlet that I ran across at the LOC
American Memory website:
http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/eaa/ephemera/A01/A0173/A0173-01-72dpi.html
from the late 19thC and which describes the evolution of the cut of
the sock, particularly the heel.

I'm not saying it's a great scholarly source or anything, but on the
other hand, a company who's made socks  stockings for a while would
know a decent amount.  If only they included dates!  And were less
racist!

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Downton Abbey

[Elena House]

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 4:14 PM, WorkroomButtons.com
westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com wrote:
 By everyone,  do you mean major pattern companies?  Is PBS even on the 
 radar of the Big Three?

It's a BBC show, rather than just a PBS show--and it's a popular one!
Wouldn't surprise me if there's a bit of an uptick in interest in that
era among costumers, which suits me just fine, seeing as the 1910s are
my current era of interest.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] white and red cotton

[Elena House]

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 1:44 PM,  snsp...@aol.com wrote:
 You must not mix new cotton with old nor red cotton with white. p.  89
 What does he mean by red cotton?

It seems reasonable that he means the same thing I mean when I sort my
clothes before doing the laundry...  presumably there was some chance
of the dye rubbing off.  They didn't want pink socks and underwear
then, either!

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Uniquely You dress form question [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Elena House]

Mine is only about 5 years old, but did take on the shape of its cover
pretty thoroughly even in that short time... and since I made the
cover lace on rather than zip on, it also had some well-defined lace
impressions on it.  When I took the cover off to wash it, I wound up
leaving it in my sewing room all summer.  This is significant, because
my sewing room is a largish room over my detached garage... and I only
air condition it when I'm actively using it, which I didn't that
summer.

I'd taken the cover off to wash it before, and the form had held the
shape until I put it back on (even when I left it off for several
weeks, because it's a chore to put it back on), but this time it
sprang back (as far as I can remember) to pretty much its original
shape within a few days.  I'm about 90% convinced that it was due to
the heat.  If so, this means that you're in luck there in Oz, what
with summer heat breathing down your neck!

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Sherlock

[Elena House]

Okay, I was about to post a what on earth are you people talking
about post, but several minutes with google and my DVR answered that!
 For anyone else who didn't already know what they were talking about
but is interested, it's a BBC series that will air on PBS starting Oct
24 at  ...as Masterpiece Mystery, which explains why my DVR couldn't
find it as Sherlock.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Value of handmade costumes...

[Elena House]

I haven't done anything about garb, but I was able to write my fabric
stash into my homeowner's insurance, which was definitely a relief.

For the garb, I think you might need to focus on replacement cost--if
you were to hire someone else to re-make these for you, what would
their total charge be?  Sounds like a good excuse to do some fun
window-shopping at websites, vendors, etc.  Even if what they're
selling isn't _exactly_ like what you already have, you should be able
to find something of similar complexity made from materials of similar
cost.

-E House


On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Guenievre de Monmarche
guenie...@erminespot.com wrote:
 Hi!
 This is a slightly off-topic question, but as I'm in the middle of the
 post-Pennsic garb cleaning binge, spending hour cleaning hems and
 steaming wrinkles gives one a lot of time to ponder the value of the
 fabric and time in one's garb. So I started wondering whether I should
 get a rider on my insurance to cover the garb, and realized I had no
 idea how to estimate the value in question. In most cases I know how
 to estimate the fabric cost, but how do I estimate labor, especially
 on things with 100+ hours of embroidery? I'm not a pro seamstress, so
 I'm somewhat at a loss...

 Jennifer aka Guenièvre

 Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...

[Elena House]

I've had to learn way more about copyright law than I ever wanted
because I got into producing royalty free stock illustrations for an
international company.  Dealing with the copyright side of my work
often takes much more time than the actual work.

Since it is a truly international company, contributors have to abide
by ALL international copyright laws, which means that we wind up
having to follow a set of rules that are much stricter than those of
any single country.  Let's say that countries A through Y consider a
sketch made by an artist of an existing work of art to be an original
work of art.  However, country Z considers this to be copyright
infringement, therefore no artists contributing to this company can
sell sketches of an existing work of art.  OK, fine, but multiply that
by about 1978302187091, and you'll get some idea of the thorniness of
the situation.

Even if I create a work of art without reference to absolutely
anything including live models, in my own uninfluenced style, I am
still open to prosecution in some countries if the end result reminds
someone of some work of art they saw somewhere.  An examination of
previous copyright infringement lawsuits indicates that to be legally
safe, artists should simply never ever ever look at anyone else's
artwork, period, because if they can prove that you reasonably could
have seen the existing work of art (not DID, but could have) then you
are screwed.

Now, I want to protect my intellectual property.  I've had it stolen
in the past, and I didn't like it.  I put in the painfully
time-consuming research time to make sure that I'm not violating
copyright.  But I read the draconian copyright laws that my fellow
artists either A) want to implement or B) incorrectly think have
already been implemented, and it makes me want to find another
business entirely.  Many--not all, but many--basically take the
attitude that if anyone so much as thinks about their artwork, much
less sees it, they should get a whopping big payment for it.  It's
insane, and it's killing art.

Traditionally, artists have been encouraged to look at as much art as
possible.  While being trained, we're told to copy this painting or
that style, to get a feel for how it was done.  This has been going on
for centuries, and has produced great works of art.  If you
study--even very off-handedly--the artists that, for example, we
costume people spend a lot of time with, like Holbein or Duerer or Da
Vinci, you'll find that they were copying each other left and right.
This does not mean that the product of that copying was any less an
original work of art.  This does mean that by today's standards, every
single great artist for the past umpteen number of centuries has been
a copyright violator, and in today's courts would be metaphorically
drawn and quartered for it.

It makes me want to heave.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] 20th c. Men's Hats

[Elena House]

Wikipedia has a decent little pictorial glossary of hat styles,
although some of their definitions don't necessarily match up with
modern usage.  (Beanies of the propeller type, for example, are not
what you're likely to find for sale when you shop for beanies on the
interweb...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat#Hat_styles

-E House, who feels naked unless she's wearing one of her newsboy
caps, or at the very least a fedora.  If only I could find my old
Greek fisherman's cap Oh, how I loved that cap!
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Re: [h-cost] A question on sewing fur

[Elena House]

Rather than shaving the seam allowances, I leave out the seam
allowances entirely (well, ok, maybe a teeny allowance--whatever it
takes to keep the sinew from pulling through).  Then I push the fur
away from the edges, put the pieces together fur to fur, and
whip-stitch by hand.  (Don't pull the stitches tight; leave them loose
enough that they don't pull the leather and that they allow wiggle
room to pull apart and flatten the two pieces.)  I'm not saying it's
fun, but it's faster, the end result is smoother, and for many eras
it's a period practice.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Silk velvet

[Elena House]

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Traci tr...@crimsonvision.net wrote:
 I found my velvet at a small private store (not a chain and not online) in
 the fabric district near me (Dallas)

As someone who has tons of family in and around Dallas, I'd like very
much to know more about this small private store...

-E House
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[h-cost] Mysterious spots on cotton

[Elena House]

Well, this is a first for me... I washed some brand new natural
colored cotton coutil, and burgundy spots popped up all over it.
Looks like some dye powder got on it before it was shipped to me, and
now I'm stuck wondering:  does dye remover weaken cotton?  I've got a
bunch of the stuff sold by Dharma Trading, and for any other purpose I
wouldn't hesitate to use it on cotton, but the whole point of coutil
is that it should be as strong as possible.  I was planning to dye
this fabric anyway, so I don't mind if it changes colors on me...

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Mysterious spots on cotton

[Elena House]

I would do that in other cases, but this is for a client--they want a
light peachy-tan color, so I've got to lighten up the spots somehow!

I just emailed the seller (Lost Coast) in the hopes that they can at
least tell me what the spots ARE...

-E House


On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.com wrote:
 Why bother with dye remover? Personally, I'd just dye the fabric some color
 darker than the spots.  Burgundy or purple sounds ideal.

 Fran
 Lavolta Press
 Books on historic costuming
 http://www.lavoltapress.com


 Elena House wrote:

 Well, this is a first for me... I washed some brand new natural
 colored cotton coutil, and burgundy spots popped up all over it.
 Looks like some dye powder got on it before it was shipped to me, and
 now I'm stuck wondering:  does dye remover weaken cotton?

 snip

 I was planning to dye

 this fabric anyway, so I don't mind if it changes colors on me...

 -E House
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Re: [h-cost] Mysterious spots on cotton

[Elena House]

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.com wrote:
 Or else maybe replace the flawed fabric with one guaranteed not break out in
 spots?

I can but hope...

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

Yeah, I rechecked my source, and apparently it's flax _for linseed
oil_ that y'all are the biggest producer/exporter of.  I think you
should do something about that =}

-E House


On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Audrey Bergeron-Morin
audreybmo...@gmail.com wrote:
 Right now, Canada is by far the biggest producer and exporter of flax,


 We are? Wow, I wish it was sold *here*! Unless it's flax for oil and other
 uses, and not fabric...
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

I _think_ the Skraelings wore animal skins; the Inuit the Norse met
did.  There were bighorn sheep in the Rockies, but that's probably a
bit far for an early colony!  So yeah, good point; without importing
some sheep or bringing in some flax seed (how easy is it to grow flax
from seed?) they would have had to get real friendly with furs and
leather real fast.  But wikipedia says that Columbus brought some on
his 2nd voyage (and there were sheep in the Greenland colony) so maybe
sheep aren't terribly hard to transport...?  And there may have been
native hemp, although that may have been a bit further south.

-E House


On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 10:48 AM,  tearo...@aol.com wrote:
 What kinds of fibers would the scraelings have had to weave with? They didn't 
 have sheep for wool, did they? And linen is an Old World crop and cotton 
 doesn't grow that far north, as far as I know. I am completely ignorant of 
 Native American costume from that region, so what would they have made 
 clothes and blankets out of?
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

2009/9/30 Käthe Barrows kay...@gmail.com:
 The Mexican natives (Aztec, Maya, etc.), and those south of them
 (Inca), wove of something like wool - goat? mountain sheep? - pre
 European conquest.

The Inca used llama, alpaca, and vicuña!  A weaving industry started
to appear in the area around 600-700 BC among the Colla tribe; they
were the empire before the Inca.  (Can you tell that my mother wrote a
book on Bolivian highland weaving, which is currently open on my lap?
=} )  In the first millenium AD and for a wee short time after, there
was an extensive trade network in place with the Mississippian
culture, but I don't know if it made it far enough south to trade with
the Inca.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Kim Baird kba...@cableone.net wrote:
 However, once they learned to weave from the Vikings, who knows what they
 might have created? Look what the Navajo did once they got some sheep.

Right now, Canada is by far the biggest producer and exporter of flax,
so I bet that a Vinland industry would have taken off!  Canada also
produces a good deal of hemp, so between the two I think it's safe to
guess that my Vinland fashionistas would have worn at least some
linen.

I don't think it would have taken more than a couple of centuries for
sheep to spread across the Americas.  I have a feeling they would have
been a big hit with the locals, once all the technical aspects had
been passed along.

The Norse managed to travel pretty far in the other hemisphere, both
by water and by land--I wonder how far they might go, to trade in the
Americas?  It wouldn't shock me to see some trade with South American
indigenous people.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

Everyone, please feel free to use this idea!  I'd really love to see
what someone other than me is picturing.  =}

-E House


On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ann Catelli elvestoor...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Whatever your conclusions--draw them up quickly  send them in to the Future 
 Fashion Folio for Costume-Con 28 http://www.cc28.org/futurefolio.php; the 
 deadline is September 30 (postmark or email).
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

2009/9/29 Käthe Barrows kay...@gmail.com:
 And I was thinking how they would look by the 21st century.
[snip]

I'm aware of minor differences between modern dress (mostly having to
do with the level of formality people consider appropriate for
everyday things) but yeah, I'm picturing the modern day results as
being pretty similar.  But going back a bit further, I wonder if
materials that only became common in the 20th century would have been
more common earlier?

I'm thinking especially of leather; there's been a lot of discussion
of leather being used for this, that, or the other historical garment,
and the general concensus seems to be either, shyeah, right or later
on, maybe once in a blue moon, but not typically.  Right now I'm
picturing a deerskin redingote (or better yet, schaube) and liking
it...

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

Well, I'm interested both in the modern day effects of a successful
Vinland colony, and--since it's my favorite clothing era--in 14thC and
15thC Vinland fashions!  But I'll take anything I can get. =}

-E House


2009/9/29 Käthe Barrows kay...@gmail.com:
 Assuming some influence from both sides of the merger, what would the
 resulting mixed-race culture have worn, several hundred years in?

 As stated, they'd probably look a lot like we do now, 2009 being
 several hundred years in.  How many years into the development did
 you really want?

 --
 Carolyn Kayta Barrows
 --
 “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.”   -William 
 Gibson
 --
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

2009/9/29 Käthe Barrows kay...@gmail.com:
 Hmm.  Within a couple of centuries regular trade should have been
 established.  And fur would be a major export to Europe.

I'm sure that the parts of Europe where it was forbidden to hunt deer
would have loved all that imported deerskin!  Although maybe with that
much being imported, deer would have been huntable again?  And imagine
cochineal and cotton being available centuries earlier, not to mention
chocolate  The poor beaver would probably be extinct by now,
though.

 Hey - by the 14th-15th centuries there could easily have been more
 colonists/colonies from more European countries.  That would have
 Europeanized fashion.  And there might not be an America as we know it
 by the 19thC.

Yeah, I don't really think that British colonies would have taken such
a strong hold--British immigrants, yeah, but not colonies.  I think
there may have been some successful Spanish colonies in the south
still, though.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

I can definitely see that typical colonial reaction of anything from
the homeland being better, but sheer scarcity would surely lead the
colonists to make use of what's around them.  I'm also thinking,
though, about the many types of native clothing that European
frontiersmen adopted, and how American Indians accessorized with trade
goods

-E House


On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com wrote:
 I would think that would depend on the mindset of the colony. Would the
 European influences be more or less valued by the western colony? Maybe
 there would be a snob factor to Viking things vs. what could be put
 together from the local supplies, etc.
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[h-cost] Viking alternate history--14thC/15thC Vinland?

[Elena House]

Ok, here's a challenge for the list's imagination--maybe you can help
me out with a little thought experiment.

Let's say that the whole c1000 Vinland expedition thing resulted in a
viable colony; one that actually got along pretty well with the
indigenous people (Skraelings) yet stayed in contact with Greenland,
Iceland, and points east through a north Atlantic trade route.

Assuming some influence from both sides of the merger, what would the
resulting mixed-race culture have worn, several hundred years in?  If,
for example, there were a Vinlander GFD, what would it have looked
like?  What would the men wear in cold weather?  What kind of shoes
would people wear?  And so on.

-E House

PS--From my brief research, it looks like the Narragansett tribe does
descend from that meeting, but of course there was no continuous
interaction with European culture in the real timeline; what I'm
looking for is the effect that interaction might have!
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Re: [h-cost] Color dye mixing

[Elena House]

Ooo, lots of options there!  If you were to use a bright, saturated
blue, then yeah, you'd go purple.  Or purplish, or purpler.  If you
were to use a dark blue with a lot of black to it, like a navy, you'd
get something along the lines of a plum color, which could pass for
burgundy.  If you were to overdye with a burgundy of the shade you
wanted in the first place, you'd get a darker and more saturated
version of that shade.

If it were me, I'd overdye with brown--anything from a bright rust, to
a sepia, depending on how bright you want the burgundy to turn out.
If you want to sadden/desaturate the fuchsia a lot, add some green
into the mix.

Generally speaking, if you want a redder/warmer burgundy as the end
result, use something with some yellow in your overdye; if you want a
purpley burgundy, use something with blue in it.  If you want a
saddened/desaturated result, use something that's either the opposite
color (green) or has a lot of black in it (dark anything).  If you
want a result that's just as saturated, only darker, over dye with
something that's about halfway in between what you have and what you
want.  (Awkward phrasing.  For example, if you had fuchsia, and wanted
a really vibrant and saturated plum, you would overdye the fuchsia
with a vibrant maroon.)

-E House


On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Alexandria Doyle garbaho...@gmail.com wrote:
 I have a length of wool that is a fushia color that I would like to
 take to burgundy.  any suggestions on the colors to add to the fushia
 to get burgundy?  I was thinking blue, but don't want to go purple...

 alex

 --
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Re: [h-cost] custom made brocades

[Elena House]

I'm terribly interested, but I probably won't be able to afford it
until fall/winter.  I'd be happy to design several dozen patterns that
I want as soon as I have a speck of spare time, though! =}

-E House, who just spent her fabric budget for the year on the most
recent-but-one Adobe software suite, and therefore will have no spare
time when it arrives in the mail tomorrow hurryhurryhurryhurry...


On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Kathy Stormberg ksto...@hotmail.com wrote:
 ... I would be interested in doing a silk brocade if maybe some
 others want to go in on it for a nice medieval pattern.
 -Kathy
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Re: [h-cost] custom made brocades

[Elena House]

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Zuzana Kraemerova
zkraemer...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Price: pattermanikg fee: 10$ per cm**2 (you pay for the size of one pattern 
 that is to be repeated on the fabric.)

Wow, you know, this just suddenly put the whole medieval textile
industry into perspective for me, since the type of design I most want
to see in brocade is on average at least 50cm x 150cm repeat.  You do
the math for the cost on that one (Hint: I could get one of my
dream cars for less!)  Now I truly feel what the average housewife
would have felt, while watching the nobles walk past.

That said, I am deliriously happy to hear this, and will be saving up. =}

-E House
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[h-cost] Fabric search solution--design your own

[Elena House]

So, my desperate search for a specific print turned up a gem:
http://www.spoonflower.com
where you can design your own fabric.  Right now you can only get it
printed on either quilting fabric or light-weight upholstery fabric,
but I have a feeling that a lot of people here could make great use of
this.  It does cost more than I'd normally consider spending on a
cotton print ($18/yd for quilting, $35/yd for upholstery) but compared
with the designer fabrics I've been looking at lately, it ain't half
bad.

In order to be able to print on the upholstery fabric, you have to
sign up as a tester:
http://blog.spoonflower.com/2009/04/upholsteryweight-testers.html
It's a 10oz cotton sateen 55 wide.

-E House
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[h-cost] OT fabric search: obnoxious 50s/60s/70s print in avocado orange

[Elena House]

When I was around 16 or 17, I made my first bust supporting fitted
gown. It was made out of some sort of slightly drapey wanna-be-linen
cotton fabric with the most spectacularly obnoxious retro print I
could find--and this being the height of the grunge era, I cannot
begin to describe how much I enjoyed wearing that dress with my neon
orange polyester raincoat as I sat in front of Cafe Insomnia in
Austin, TX, and competed with my fellow drag-rats to come up with the
most annoying and/or ridiculous panhandling plea.

I don't particularly care to relive my homeless glory days, but darn
it, I loved that dress.  It has disappeared at some point during my
past half a dozen moves though, and even if I could find it again I am
no longer as scary skinny as I was whilst spending what little money I
panhandled on espresso and cigarettes rather than food.

And now, I would like to relive that dress!  Therefore I am looking
for a similarly obnoxious fabric, preferably in linen, hemp, tencel,
or rayon. (Well, ideally in worsted wool, but I just can't see that
happening.)  The original had a retro print (although since I may have
gotten it at a thrift store it might just have been old rather than
retro) in a very 70s looking avocado green with orange accents, on a
cream or ecru background.  It was a very busy print, with the
background receding almost completely; the green was dominant, but the
orange was still noticeable.

So, if anyone should happen to run across a retro print in avocado and
orange, on a fabric that could be used for a bust-supporting fitted
gown (read: NOT quilting fabric) please let me know!

-Bob
(E House)
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[h-cost] 20s-ish dress was: Peacock Wedding Dress

[Elena House]

Wow, this is one of the very very few celebrity retro-wannabe dresses
I've ever liked:
http://snipurl.com/fy932

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] 20s-ish dress was: Peacock Wedding Dress

[Elena House]

Well, yeah. I was more quoting the article than dating the gown--the
movie it was inspired by(? or a costume from?) is supposed to be
1920s.  Either way, it doesn't look like it's supposed to be a repro
to me--it looks inspired by.

I do see that silhouette in films of the very late 20s, though.  This
dress could probably pass as '29 or even high fashion '28 to my eye,
which admittedly hasn't been trained through actual serious study of
the period, but rather through my fascination with silent movies. =}

-E
PS--there are ever so many silent film clips on YouTube
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Re: [h-cost] Hook Eye closures (was Club for enthusiasts o...)

[Elena House]

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 10:15 PM,  ladybeanofbun...@aol.com wrote:
 I don't know if any of you have ever come across these, but on one of my
 period gowns from the 1880's the bodice closes with little black hooks and
 eyes that are quite unsual, and hard to explain, but the hook slides over
 and the eyes or bars have like a flap so that when the hook slides over it
 catches with ease and closes automatically and holds it tight so it won't
 pop open again!

Any chance you could upload pictures?

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Patterns date question

[Elena House]

On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Becky Rautine zearti...@hotmail.com wrote:
 It might even be worth something to them.

I must admit, the Cash in the Attic watcher in me saw dollar signs.
If I owned this scrapbook, though, I don't think I'd be able to part
with it... thanks so much for photographing it and sharing it with us!

-E House
(drat my limited bandwidth satellite internet connection...)
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Re: [h-cost] silent film era scrap book

[Elena House]

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Michelle Plumb mpl...@wideopenwest.com wrote:
 Wah!  I wanna see all those lovely films but I live in Michigan!

Ditto, except I'm in Vermont!  (And strongly dislike California,
having lived there twice.)  But hey, there's 4 silent movies on TCM
tonight...

8:00 PM Navigator, The (1924)
In this silent film, two members of the idle rich have to move fast
when they're stranded on an abandoned luxury liner. Cast: Buster
Keaton, Frederick Vroom, Kathryn McGuire. Dir: Donald Crisp, Buster
Keaton. BW-60 mins, TV-G
9:15 PM Mabel and Fatty's Wash Day (1915)
In this silent short, a henpecked husband's innocent friendship with a
married woman leads to chaos. Cast: Roscoe Fatty Arbuckle, Mabel
Normand, Alice Davenport. Dir: Roscoe Fatty Arbuckle. BW-13 mins,
TV-G
10:45 PM He Did and He Didn't (1916)
In this silent short, when a doctor eats too much, he dreams that his
wife is unfaithful. Cast: Roscoe Fatty Arbuckle, Mabel Normand, Ben
Turpin. Dir: Roscoe Fatty Arbuckle. BW-21 mins, TV-G
3:15 AM Fatty and Mabel's Simple Life (1915)
In this silent short, a farmhand defies his boss to court the man's
daughter. Cast: Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle, Mabel Normand, Al S. John.
Dir: Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle. BW-24 mins, TV-G

It's a shame they seem to have abandoned the whole Silent Sundays
thing that they used to do!

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Patterns date question

[Elena House]

I love this period--been doing a lot of research on it, and saving a
lot of images.  They're on a different computer and I'm too lazy to
walk all the way upstairs, though, so I'll make do down here...

WWI in the Netherlands is a bit general: there are a lot of changes in
fashion during those years.  Also, I'm not sure how much the
Netherlands setting affects the question--would they be behind the
times, fashion-wise, or are they close enough to France that they'd be
getting new trends before the US?  One of my favorite books (although
useless for the project I've been researching) is a Dover reprint of a
1914 what-are-the-newest-trends type magazine; the intro explains that
American fashion correspondents are reporting on the latest Paris
trends. The reason the book is useless for my research is that a lot
of these trends just plain didn't make it over to the US, or didn't
show up until a year or three after 1914, but it might actually be
useful for the Netherlands.  The book is:
http://www.amazon.com/Home-Pattern-Company-Fashions-Catalog/dp/0486286886/

Anyway, I really just have a few general comments.  The first and
foremost is this: HATS.  They are essential to the costume.  Looking
through the fashion plates, the only people I see not wearing hats are
the ones who are also modeling lingerie or housecoats.  Unless the
characters are planning to spend all day inside, they need a matching
hat.

Also, the hairstyle is so very definitive of the era--I hope someone
involved is good at doing those nice poufy up-dos, or that you have
some great wigs.  Here's a book that I want, but not badly enough to
spend that much on it:
http://www.amazon.com/Hairstyles-Fashion-Hairdressers-History-1910-1920/dp/1859732224/

Third, undergarments: they're less of a struggle in this era. The
frumpy, poufy, blousy look lets you go bra-less with impunity (and get
a more accurate look; bras existed but weren't worn much, and the high
firm bust of today's bras just doesn't work) and although girdle-like
corsets are still worn, the main impact they have on the outer look is
to keep your clothing from getting wrinkled and rumpled around the
waist if you spend time sitting throughout the day.  In other words,
you don't need something tight around the waist, just something firm.
Hips and rear ends are worn rather straight and flat even in the
flared-skirt portion of this era; a girdle can help a bit with that,
but it's more a matter of how the skirts are cut.  The slightly raised
waistline also helps mask the swell of the hips.

Fourth, this is an era where you start seeing everyday clothes that
are actually comfortable become fashionable. If you're a bit chilly,
throw on a sweater or cardigan.  Riding?  Try pants instead of a
skirt.  Working in the garden?  Put on a pair of overalls. Sleeves are
loose and relatively roomy; necklines are low or loose enough to be
comfortable (if shocking to the older generation).  Other than perhaps
the shoes, no part of the outfit should be tight enough to be
constricting in any way.  The fitness culture that we have today had
already begun and spread to females before this era; people understood
that exercise was necessary for both sexes, and by this era, women
were starting to wear clothing that was actually comfortable for
physical activity.

(Speaking of which, the whole 'hobble skirt' thing was a fashion
flash-in-the-pan that fizzled specifically because it was so hard to
live with, and most women were no longer interested in putting up with
that.  The look stayed popular and reappeared off and on throughout
the era, but after a very short time--during which only a few women
wore the style for more than just weddings or other highly formal
events--skirts were most often only made to _look_ that tight around
the calves and ankles.  The use of clever pattern-making and tailoring
tricks, and a few well-placed pleats and slits made walking easy, even
if the skirts still _looked_ like they might hobble you.  By 1914, the
flash-in-the-pan part was over, and very few skirts had a built-in
speed limit.)

You should be able to find several patterns that will work at Past
Patterns; my favorites and the ones I think look most typical by year
are:
1914--
http://www.pastpatterns.com/6053.html (This dress could be pulled off
throughout the era.)
http://www.pastpatterns.com/8480.html (The sheer frilliness of this
one makes it a bit more specific to the earlier part of the era, but
still wearable throughout, especially by a teenager.)
http://www.pastpatterns.com/6909.html (Note the frilly stuff at the
upper thighs; you see that everywhere in 1914)
http://www.pastpatterns.com/8390.html (This is a great example of how
drape and optical illusions are used to give the _look_ of a skirt
that would hobble you, without actually hobbling you.)

1915--
http://www.pastpatterns.com/9395.html (Another typical look is the
blouse you see here, with the neckline/collar dropping straight down
into an open front over a 

Re: [h-cost] Patterns date question

[Elena House]

PS--a few minutes with Google or the American Memory section of the
Library of Congress website should help you find plenty of silent
movie footage from the era.

One thing to watch out for (or perhaps take notes on--you could use it
for your costuming choices) is the fact that the filmmakers were
already making use of costume as cultural shorthand.  For example, you
can always pick out the female heroine/ingenue by her frilly white
dress made of soft, semi-sheer fabric, and often by the fact that her
hair isn't up (signalling youth).  The evil soul-sucking vamp female
wears dark fabrics, often of expensive-looking heavy or shiny silks,
and more flashy accessories and jewelry (because if she's a vamp,
she's also a gold-digger, see).  The frumpy old woman might show up in
Victorian clothing.  Just like today we'd immediately be able to
identify an aged-out hippie or a nerd from the clothing, this would
have immediately conveyed the character's traits.

To get the imagery down, you might have fun at:
http://www.silentladies.com/Ladies.html
It's not terribly easy to find people there by date, but there were
plenty of stars (such as Mary Pickford, Lillian  Dorothy Gish,
Blanche Sweet, Florence Lawrence, Mabel Normand, Alice Joyce, Clara
Kimball Young, Pearl White, and more) who are on here that were
already famous 1914-18. By the way, Lucile (Lady Duff Gordon) was a
very popular film costume designer at the time.

-E House, devoted Harold Lloyd fan...
http://www.haroldlloyd.com/
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Re: [h-cost] Mary I ???

[Elena House]

Kimiko got it!  Tudor Costume and Fashion by Herbert Norris, p. 430.
 Google books has a preview copy of it online:
http://snipurl.com/cy2vn  -or-
http://books.google.com/books?id=ynMUvGdHZhUC
Well, they call it a preview, but it seems to be almost the whole
book; just missing a page or two here and there.  Anyway, page 430 is
there.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Corset boning with zip ties

[Elena House]

They do work well; they just have different properties than other
types of boning.  Zip/cable ties provide much lighter support and
stiffening than steel of the same thickness.  They bend more easily,
which makes them ideal for the areas of a corset where you want the
corset to shape itself to the body rather than the other way around
(like the bust of an overbust fashion corset). They're great as a
cheap alternative to real or faux whalebone in a fully boned pair of
stays--you can stuff the stays full of boning, without adding pounds
to the weight.  They don't breathe, but then again neither do most of
the options.  They're incredibly easy to cut to size.

The only real problem I've had with them is that in order to get them
longer than about 14, you have to go up to a thicker/wider tie (or
order off the interweb).  Personally, I can't stand the thicker/wider
ones, but that's mostly an aesthetic thing; I like the narrower bone
channels and I don't like the way the thicker ones look under
clothing.  If I want the stiffness of the thicker ones, I just use a
steel bone instead.  Speaking of which, using both types in the same
corset works really well, especially in Victorian corsets; you only
need a few key steel bones to get the right shape, and then can use
several ties to keep things firm and the fabric unwrinkled.

-E House



On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Penny Ladnier pe...@costumegallery.com wrote:
 There is an interesting topic on the USITT costume designers email list about 
 using zip ties for stays in corsets.  Has anyone tried this?  Here is a URL 
 for an example:
 http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/CaraGreenleaf/Chain%20and%20Dresses/?action=viewcurrent=Corsetbonesuncut.jpg

 The professors say that it works very well.

 Penny Ladnier
 Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
 www.costumegallery.com
 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history
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Re: [h-cost] Vietnamese loom

[Elena House]

Well, I can't resist hawking my mother's book:
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Bolivian-Highland-Weaving-Traditional/dp/0823002640
since the Bolivians make extensive use of the backstrap loom (and
similar adaptations, along with other interesting primitive looms).
The book focuses more on what's woven in the looms rather than the
looms themselves, though.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] looking for a website about a 13th century spanish burial

[Elena House]

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Mary mary_m_haselba...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Please help save my sanity. I saw a website about a year ago  about a 13th 
 century
 Spanish burial of a young girl. She had on a yellow silk overdress with blue 
 horizontal
 stripes.

I don't know this website, but I think you may mean the saya from
Burgos, shown Marc's site:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/burgsite.html

About halfway down this page:
http://www.virtue.to/articles/extant.html
Cynthia Virtue has a pellote from the same find.  Also from the same
find is a male infant's pellote that's yellowish beige with horizontal
dark blue stripes (I have an image of it in my files, listed as
belonging to Fernando, son of Alfonso X).  I also have a color photo
of Leonora of Aragon's saya, but it's not a very good quality--the
saya looks generally brown, with black or blue gores.

The images I have are from:
http://www.kostym.cz/ which for some reason no longer seems to allow
direct links, and is otherwise being weird.  Clink on the UK flag,
then on European Medieval... 88, then click on next until you see
something likely.  This site also mentions a c1235 surcotte belonging
to the infanta Marie at the Museo de Traje in Madrid, which you might
also want to look at.

Anyway, this might at least give you a bit of a start at finding the
website!  From looking at Marc's site, you might want to search for
the Museo de Telas Medievales in Burgos, Spain.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Ladies Clothing - gentry, c. 1503

[Elena House]

What area?  I've got tons from the continent, but very little (other
than the occasional royals) for England.

-E House


On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Suzi Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Does anyone have  web sites, or recommendations as to where I can find
 pictures for this period. One of my regular customers needs information, and
 it is not a period I do.

 Suzi

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Re: [h-cost] Ladies Clothing - gentry, c. 1503

[Elena House]

I'll give you a quick general run-down; I haven't got it in me right
now to look up all the documentation.  Hopefully this'll give you a
good starting point. I'm guessing you're interested in English styles,
so I'll try to slant it that way, but I'll have to refer heavily to
continental styles because A) they're so much better documented and B)
a few years later when English fashions get easier to document, they
match up reasonably well with what the Franco-Flemish were doing 10-15
years earlier.  So, when I get continental, I'll try to describe what
they were wearing c1488-1493.

Monumental brasses will be your best resource for c1500 English
fashions.  They're not the most accurate source, but they're loads
better than almost nothing you'll find in the portraits arena.
However, Elizabeth of York's c1500 portrait shows what seems to be a
pretty typical style for the era/area, even if it is in much more
luxurious fabrics than your average gentlewoman would have been
wearing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Elizabeth_of_York.jpg
Henry the VIII's sisters, Mary Tudor--who went on to queen it in
France--and Margaret Tudor, who queened Scotland, have a few
illuminations floating around; they were famous beauties.  (The
portraits I've found of them are probably wrong for your project,
though there's a painting of Margaret that's only a few years too
late, and a sketch of Mary that's only a tad too French.)  Catherine
of Aragon has at least one great portrait from c1505, during her
widowhood:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Michel_Sittow_002.jpg
though again, the style she's wearing is not terribly English.  Stick
with the brasses.

If you search through google books, you'll find some transcripts of
descriptions of coronations, inventories, etc from around that time.
For example, here's the privy purse expenses of Elizabeth of York:
http://books.google.com/books?id=p91CIAAJprintsec=frontcoverdq=%22elizabeth+of+york%22
(Sorry, this is just the first one I ran into in my bookmarks.
There's lots more good stuff there.  The Victorians may have been
horrible costume historians in a lot of ways, but they were great at
transcribing.)

On to the overall style.  I read one great description in a
Spaniard-visits-the-Engligh-court travelogue from the mid 1500s; even
though it's the wrong date, it pretty well sums up the English
fashions c1500: frumpy and ill-fitting, making the women look
shapeless and sloppy.  Franco-Flemish high fashion in the last years
of the 15th century had a well-fitted 4-panel square-necked overgown
over a bust-supporting 4-panel undergown (directly descended from the
GFD).  The English c1500 most likely also wore a bust-supporting
undergown, but rather than fitting like a glove, their overgowns
tended to fit like a brown paper bag.

(I'll be making sweeping generalizations here.  This is not the only
style nor the only way it was done.  It's just the most common,
stereotypical style.)

For illustration purposes (but not documentation, since I don't know
exactly when this is from... but it's the right style), here's a
typical c1500 English outfit:
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/trivick02.jpg
Here's a c1504 English brass--not as detailed, but more dateable:
http://www.thurrock-community.org.uk/historysoc/brasses/stiff2.jpg

For the overgown, start by picturing a non-bust-supporting GFD that
skims over the body but doesn't fit it closely.  Give it a front
placket opening down to hip level, hiding a hook-and-eyes closure.
The neckline should be cut square (when you cut it square, it'll slip
off the shoulders a bit when worn and no longer look square--this is
the correct look) and high; up to about collarbone level.  Much like
the French and Flemish in the 1490s, the English c1500 sometimes put
an angled-up peak at the center front of the neckline, like in that
second link.  A fabric guard, most often shown as black, was usually
applied to the neckline and front opening.  Most or all of the
overgowns seem to have been lined in some type of fur, which may be
part of the reason for the high frumpiness level.

(Apart from the frumpiness, the overgown is very very similar to that
worn in the 1490s on the continent.  There are quite a lot of
Franco-Flemish paintings  illuminations that show it.)

On the continent, they were experimenting with waist seams across the
back that had pleats below, but not in England--no waist seams on this
style there yet.  On most of the brasses, the length of the gown is
past-the-floor, but that's not necessarily realistic.  The sleeves are
usually relatively closely fitted, with a large turned-up fur-lined
cuff at the end, often with a slit.

The one non-typical feature of the top image I linked to is the
chemise; a more typical look would be a sheer white scarf with the
ends tucked down into the overgown's neckline.  (Just make a basic,
tunic-style, not-meant-to-be-seen chemise.) The belt, however, is very
typical; big, bulky, long, decorative, and buckled 

Re: [h-cost] Ladies Clothing - gentry, c. 1503

[Elena House]

Ahh, with Margaret you're in a bit of luck:
http://tudorhistory.org/people/margaret/marsketch.jpg

From what you've said, I think that what I wrote about English
fashions pretty much carries over, especially if you're dealing with
Margaret's court.

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Flat bottomed (and other) armholes

[Elena House]

Why do you people have to have a discussion that I'm really interested
in and would love to jump feet first into with a ridiculously long
illustrated post, at a time when I have so much work I have to do
instead that at 1 am, I still have many hours worth of work to do
before I can sleep?  Spoilsports!

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!

[Elena House]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Kass McGann
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I was referring to the discussion about the 15th century armholes as
  illustrated in Houston and the Jeu de Hache pictures.  They just make so
  much sense to me!

  Kass
   http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/

Not surprised to hear that, since they've always reminded me of the
Moy Bog gown's sleeves.  Not quite the same thing, but if you can
build one, you can build the other!

-E House
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