Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 21/09/2005 18:03 At 17:30 21/09/2005, you wrote: Suzi Clarke wrote: The learning and teaching of history in Britain is getting worse and worse Yes - I was amazed on Saturday when watching the TV quiz Who wants to be a millionaire. Despite all the recent programmes about Henry VIII, very few people knew which wife he married after seeing a flattering portrait of her by Holbein. I've known that story since I was a schoolgirl! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
snip Have you ever read Hunnisett's explanation of the costs asscoiated with making the Ditchley gown for the Elizabeth R series? Why does every production of anything having to do with history have to be perfectly accurate down to the seams? Should the have to go all the way and have reproduction everything? Consider the targeted audience. Most people wouldn't notice any of the detail you speak of. Do your clients? That anyone is producing history films at all is a boon in my mind. If absolute costume accuracy were the criteria, all we would ever see is contemporary films...it would be all that was affordable. Just my two cents Sg snip but seams are the easiest and cheapest thing to get right, no matter how shoestring your budget is princess seams are no cheaper than a period cut (in fact they would be marginally more expensive as they take up more fabric) I can understand things like substituting synthetics for authentic fabrics, so long as it looks OK on film and for any costume that's not going to be seen close up synthetics will probably be fine. But if there were curved seams going over the bust that will throw off the entire silhouette which is blatantly obvious to everyone, admittedly only a small proportion of the viewers will know it's wrong but if the argument that only a small proportion of the viewers will know that it's wrong is the basis for all the decisions then why try for any base in fact if only a few viewers will know they got it wrong. But the viewers who already know the facts are not the ones to be concerned about, it's the people who are learning history from this film who will take it as fact and be wrong. Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
Excatly my words... Bjarne - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth In a message dated 9/21/2005 5:17:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What particularly infuriates me, personally, is when something is grossly inaccurate when doing it accurately would _NOT_ have been any more expensive or difficult. And all it would have taken to do it right would be ten minutes' worth of asking around among people who actually do know. * Or the costume designer thinks he's a fashion designer who can make up whatever he wants and then put it on Wolfgang Amadeus Mozartor whomever. A costume designer's job is not the same as a fashion designer's. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
Elizabeth Walpole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But seams are the easiest and cheapest thing to get right, no matter how shoestring your budget is princess seams are no cheaper than a period cut (in fact they would be marginally more expensive as they take up more fabric) I can understand things like substituting synthetics for authentic fabrics, so long as it looks OK on film and for any costume that's not going to be seen close up synthetics will probably be fine. But if there were curved seams going over the bust that will throw off the entire silhouette... My guess would be that the biggest reason for inaccurate costumes is simply that it's easier for costumers to make something familiar. If their experience is entirely with modern cuts and fitting, those techniques are going to seem easier to them because there's nothing to learn -- whether they are, in fact, easier or not. And if they're in a hurry, or under pressure (as who in the industry isn't...) familiarity may win out. Now mind you, for a historical film, especially one that aspires to accuracy, taking this route qualifies in my book as laziness. But I can see how it could happen, and I'm not completely unsympathetic. I just wish producers would stop claiming accuracy for things that aren't and educational value for things that distort history. One of my costuming friends commented about the film Elizabeth that the film's website actually said that the director _forbid_ the costumers to consult historic sources for costume, because he wanted a fresh vision. The amusing thing, my friend said, is that the director clearly didn't know enough about the period portraits to spot when the costumers _did_ lift something straight out of a well-known historical source :) 0 Chris Laning | [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Davis, California ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
In a message dated 9/22/2005 1:05:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of my costuming friends commented about the film Elizabeth that the film's website actually said that the director _forbid_ the costumers to consult historic sources for costume, because he wanted a fresh vision. The amusing thing, my friend said, is that the director clearly didn't know enough about the period portraits to spot when the costumers _did_ lift something straight out of a well-known historical source :) Ignorance is always fun, isn't it? A fresh vision??? Then do a Sci-fi film and leave history to those who like it. Stupid director! Why the producers [who have control] let him get away with this stupid BS idea is beyond me. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
On Thursday 22 September 2005 4:29 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 9/22/2005 1:05:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of my costuming friends commented about the film Elizabeth that the film's website actually said that the director _forbid_ the costumers to consult historic sources for costume, because he wanted a fresh vision. The amusing thing, my friend said, is that the director clearly didn't know enough about the period portraits to spot when the costumers _did_ lift something straight out of a well-known historical source :) That's interesting--and sad too. But it certainly explains what I found to be so strange about the movie. I was puzzled by the fact that some of the gowns were quite historical in design (though not necessarily period for the late 1550s, when Elizabeth actually first took the throne) while others were only historically inspired, and still others looked like bad, distant imitations of historical designs. Your friend's comment explains the phenomenon quite well. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a general rule, if end users want to smash something repeatedly with a sledgehammer, that's a sign of bad UI.--Bram Cohen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
Suzi Clarke wrote: I quote David Starkey explains why, sometimes, artistic licence is better for drama than authenticity. (Says who?) I assume this explanation occurs in the film itself and not the article? I'd like to hear what he has to say. The interest for us will no doubt be the costumes. Well, I'm getting my b*tch in first. Helen Mirren is posing with Jeremy Irons (great so far) in a gown that has seams which curve into the armhole. Do you mean in the front? They had them in the back for sure. Wish we could see the photo. And the underskirt is an embroidered dupion which is extraordinarily like 18th century flower embroidery. (I used it for my 18th century bride recently.) The braid is a braid I buy in a local shop, and would never have considered for Elizabeth - far too plain. There is a collar of glass jewels and pheasant feathers in which Helen Mirren gives Queen Elizabeth's Armada speech. I will no doubt watch, as I adore Jeremy Irons, but I don't anticipate much joy from the costumes. I spend a lot of time working to get things looking as near accurate as I can for my customers, but really, sometimes I wonder why I bother. Suzi Have you ever read Hunnisett's explanation of the costs asscoiated with making the Ditchley gown for the Elizabeth R series? Why does every production of anything having to do with history have to be perfectly accurate down to the seams? Should the have to go all the way and have reproduction everything? Consider the targeted audience. Most people wouldn't notice any of the detail you speak of. Do your clients? That anyone is producing history films at all is a boon in my mind. If absolute costume accuracy were the criteria, all we would ever see is contemporary films...it would be all that was affordable. Just my two cents Sg I am sure this is not the article you speak of, but it does have some pictures. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2005/09/10/bflizzie10.xml ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
At 17:30 21/09/2005, you wrote: Suzi Clarke wrote: I quote David Starkey explains why, sometimes, artistic licence is better for drama than authenticity. (Says who?) I assume this explanation occurs in the film itself and not the article? I'd like to hear what he has to say. No, this is in the article. It is a drama, not a documentary. The interest for us will no doubt be the costumes. Well, I'm getting my b*tch in first. Helen Mirren is posing with Jeremy Irons (great so far) in a gown that has seams which curve into the armhole. Do you mean in the front? They had them in the back for sure. Wish we could see the photo. No I don't - I mean in the front, over the bust. I spend a lot of time working to get things looking as near accurate as I can for my customers, but really, sometimes I wonder why I bother. Have you ever read Hunnisett's explanation of the costs asscoiated with making the Ditchley gown for the Elizabeth R series? I was taught by Jean Hunnisett, and I know what she went through. The courses she taught were to show costume makers how original garments were made wherever possible, (using original garments in museums where available) and then to reproduce them to the best of their ability. Her whole ethos was to make everything look as accurate as possible, using modern techniques and fabrics. She hated costume that did not look right, and in particular was horribly disappointed with David Starkey, whose documentary series on Elizabeth used her original costumes for Elizabeth R but for the wrong dates. (For example, clothes made for the 1570's were worn during the 1590's and vice versa.) She even wrote to him with her complaint. Why does every production of anything having to do with history have to be perfectly accurate down to the seams? Should the have to go all the way and have reproduction everything? Consider the targeted audience. Most people wouldn't notice any of the detail you speak of. Do your clients? That anyone is producing history films at all is a boon in my mind. If absolute costume accuracy were the criteria, all we would ever see is contemporary films...it would be all that was affordable. The learning and teaching of history in Britain is getting worse and worse, in part because TV series and films show inaccurate details. People in this country believe what they see on the TV and do not know enough to get it right. If TV companies have the money to produce costume drama, how much more expensive is it to do the research (as the costume person is said to have done) and to get it right. I have worked on film too, and it is no more expensive - at least when I have made costumes. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
Suzi, I take it you applied for this costuming job, but didn't get it? Fran snip he hated costume that did not look right, and in particular was horribly disappointed with David Starkey, whose documentary series on Elizabeth used her original costumes for Elizabeth R but for the wrong dates. (For example, clothes made for the 1570's were worn during the 1590's and vice versa.) She even wrote to him with her complaint. snip I have worked on film too, and it is no more expensive - at least when I have made costumes. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
I think you are being extreme in your response. I am not suggesting doing everything in jeans and tee-shirts, nor going on the cheap for props etc. I have too have worked on theatrical costuming, and I beg to differ that doing the research, and absolutly accurate reproduction of clothing is no more expensive than using resonable fabrics, trims etc. Try outfitting a whole cast with lace trim for instance. I can only imagine what it would cost for using reproduction fabrics. I think you are being rather high and mighty. My father was a dramaturg and I used to give him a hard time for his inability to enjoy a production he was veiwing, away from his work, for what it was. As Suz responded, this is drama not a documentary, and its target is a generally costume DETAIL ignorant group of people, not a bunch of costumers who think far too much of their talents and experiences, and that they should be imposed on every production that ever gets made. As to cutting the thing wrong, I would bet my paycheck that if we can find shaping seams in the back of the garment, then we could probably find them in at least one example in the front. And again, in a large scale production, where many gowns are being made, fitting that type of garment _is_ faster and easier. Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
In a message dated 9/21/2005 2:49:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you are being rather high and mighty. I am. But don't take it too personally. The no one will notice argument is one of my pet peeves. The No one will notice or cares argument is no help at all. Look at it this way. A show runs a mere 3 times. The small house only holds 100. At least 300 people can see the show. Are you telling me out of 300 people, NO ONE will know? Besides I know it's wrong. There's one! As far as expenseafter a certain professional level...if you don't have the bucks, then don't do it. I can't tell you how many garments and costumes I've made out of a sows ear and made it look like silk. With a little thinking and, yes, extra effort, it can be done. I was asked to do a southern belle for the March of Dimes little fund raiser skit. I bought lace cafe curtains by the pound, got donated polyester taffeta bolt ends I pieced together for an underskirt, and cut an accurate gown [even though the fabric wasn't] that looks so good, the designer of a film I did for The Family Channel insisted on using it on Jane Curtin in a major scene...where they talk about the dress! [it's dubbed the Jane Curtin Curtain Dress]. Now I don't really mean to toot my own horn so muchI am not the do all and end all in costuming. But that's my point! I'm just a cutter draper in Wilmington, NC...not even LA or NYC. If I can do it, why can't others? My own experience tells me this. The problem with your argument is that most lousy costuming has nothing to do with budget in the major motion picture and TV industry. It's usually a designer who just doesn't get itor cronyismor both. There, end of rant. It's not personal...but nix the No one will know rap. You are correct about accuracy not working every time. I am not a accuracy nut...but I like RESPECT for the period. Take Sleepy Hollow and Interview with the Vampire. Both take great liberties with fabrics and color. But things are cut accurately and there's a respect for the period...adjusted to fit the fantasy of the drama. Great costumes! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
AlbertCat said: The problem with your argument is that most lousy costuming has nothing to do with budget in the major motion picture and TV industry. It's usually a designer who just doesn't get itor cronyismor both. I agree. What particularly infuriates me, personally, is when something is grossly inaccurate when doing it accurately would _NOT_ have been any more expensive or difficult. And all it would have taken to do it right would be ten minutes' worth of asking around among people who actually do know. Common sense, of course, also enters into it: if something is only going to be seen from 20 feet away, make it look good at 20 feet. That's often more a matter of color and silhouette than what actual materials are used. So shortcuts, timesavers and so forth are perfectly reasonable (no one's going to see the bodice and skirt are held together by giant snaps!). On the other hand, if you're doing closeups that show someone's sleeve cuffs on screen from four inches away at 300% of life size, they had better look good from four inches away. That usually means going with more authentic materials and construction. And if a movie bills itself as fiction, of course they can dress their characters in whatever they want. What was most annoying about the film Elizabeth, a few years ago, is that they did lots of things in counter-historical fashion AND billed the movie as educational, with study guides and everything. I have no idea how many people came away thinking that Sir Francis Walsingham actually _did_ go to Scotland and murder Mary of Guise after sleeping with her (or whatever it was the movie said he did) -- when in fact I don't think he was ever _in_ Scotland. 0 Chris Laning | [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Davis, California ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
Dear Suzi I concur about the falling standards of UK history programmes - they seem to be aimed at those with gnat-like attention spans and clips of 'reenactments' are repeated ad nauseam just in case you forgot what happened the last time the presenter mentioned Henry VIII... all of one minute ago. My particular peeve was with a national historic body (who will remain nameless) advertising sites in Scotland using one character who was supposed to be a warrior from Bannockburn but was instead Billy Connolly's double from Braveheart. When I wrote and complained to both the organisation and advertising agency, I was told that all that mattered was making the public 'aware of their sites' by using recognisable images.Honestly. I too was bemused by the princess seams on Elizabeth's very dowdy doublet dress. Surely everyone who makes costumes at that kind of level has access to patterns of fashion?? I also think that people should not say anything unless they have something supportive /informative /nice to say or a question to ask that other people can help with. Sniping is a waste of bandwidth and everyone's time. Katherine ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
In a message dated 9/21/2005 5:17:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What particularly infuriates me, personally, is when something is grossly inaccurate when doing it accurately would _NOT_ have been any more expensive or difficult. And all it would have taken to do it right would be ten minutes' worth of asking around among people who actually do know. * Or the costume designer thinks he's a fashion designer who can make up whatever he wants and then put it on Wolfgang Amadeus Mozartor whomever. A costume designer's job is not the same as a fashion designer's. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
katherine sanders wrote: Dear Suzi snip! Sniping is a waste of bandwidth and everyone's time. Hear, hear! -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
So, Adele, what did that famous monk Georgeus Gershwinus say? My Latin is nonexistant. LynnD On 9/21/05, Adele de Maisieres [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: katherine sanders wrote: Dear Suzi snip! Sniping is a waste of bandwidth and everyone's time. Hear, hear! -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am. But don't take it too personally. Why would I take it personally? Sounds like it's your problem. The no one will notice argument is one of my pet peeves. There, end of rant. It's not personal...but nix the No one will know rap You are either not understanding what I am saying, or are mis-representing it. It isn't that no one will notice, or know the difference. It is a matter of how many people will notice, and for how many people it will be a detraction. Is your one opinion (or another few) worth so much more than the rest of the 299? The economic answer is no. As far as expenseafter a certain professional level...if you don't have the bucks, then don't do itThe problem with your argument is that most lousy costuming has nothing to do with budget in the major motion picture and TV industry. This argument is myopic. A film production can't afford to be historically accurate in every way, and there is an self-imagined expert for every aspect. I think for instance of: period armor, weaponry, carriages, saddlery, tack, furniture, food presentation, livestock, geography etc. One could go on and on. Do you really think it would be better to have none at all if it can't be perfectly accurate in every way? I don't. A film, even a drama, can be educational without being historically accurate in every way. Maybe this film won't be the best example of that, but again, I think of another production. There is a German film production of Luther which is staged entirely in old church. The stage is set up in such a way that it represents everything from Luther's private home to the Vatican in Rome, to a mill where many people were slaughtered and hung. Is it entirely accurate?-obviously not-but effective and educational-yes. BTW-the costuming isn't perfect in that flick either. I'm done. Since we are being accused of sniping it is time to take any further discussions off-list. Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
of course. LynnD Covering my face in embarassment. Now I know what it means, it's obvious. On 9/21/05, Adele de Maisieres [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lynn Downward wrote: So, Adele, what did that famous monk Georgeus Gershwinus say? My Latin is nonexistant. I've got rhythm - I've got music. I've got my man. Who could ask for anything more? -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
In a message dated 9/21/2005 7:15:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since we are being accused of sniping it is time to take any further discussions off-list. We're not snipping. Anywaymuch of what you say is quite rightPractically all of it. We really don't disagree. It's that Elizabeth context...which was inaccurate for no reason really. We both agree that accuracy is no guarantee of anything...and indeed impossible. Not even a film like Dangerous Liaisons is accurate, but it strives for a type of accuracy. What it is is completely convincing. Perhaps convincing is a better criteria to follow. It's that no one will know thingie that starts me off... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
This is made by Channel 4 for British TV but will no doubt make its way elsewhere. Helen Mirren plays Elizabeth in the years after the Armada to her death, and the advisor was the historian David Starkey. After praising its authenticity in an article in the Radio Times a tv listings magazine, he then proceeds to list at least 5 anomalies. I quote David Starkey explains why, sometimes, artistic licence is better for drama than authenticity. (Says who?) The interest for us will no doubt be the costumes. Well, I'm getting my b*tch in first. Helen Mirren is posing with Jeremy Irons (great so far) in a gown that has seams which curve into the armhole. And the underskirt is an embroidered dupion which is extraordinarily like 18th century flower embroidery. (I used it for my 18th century bride recently.) The braid is a braid I buy in a local shop, and would never have considered for Elizabeth - far too plain. There is a collar of glass jewels and pheasant feathers in which Helen Mirren gives Queen Elizabeth's Armada speech. I will no doubt watch, as I adore Jeremy Irons, but I don't anticipate much joy from the costumes. I spend a lot of time working to get things looking as near accurate as I can for my customers, but really, sometimes I wonder why I bother. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A New Programme to watch out for - Elizabeth
In a message dated 9/20/05 7:06:15 PM GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I spend a lot of time working to get things looking as near accurate as I can for my customers, but really, sometimes I wonder why I bother. Suzi God, I know that feeling!!! Debbie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
