Re: [h-cost] Embroidery dating
This sounds really exciting. What an experience to be able to see and handle such stuff! . and am I the only one in a peculiar mood today, or did anyone else look at the subject line and think, "Embroidery dating -- how to help your embroidery find its perfect soul mate?" I think it's entirely too close to Valentine's Day 0 Chris Laning | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> + Davis, California ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Embroidery dating - more info on the banners.
Thank you to everyone who has helped so far: there is a lot of gold work that fits in with the or nue technique, so here is a more detailed description. (I have rejigged the photos - 1 to 8 is banner one, 9 onwards banner two). There are two banners and I forgot to measure them when I 'met' them on Monday. They are maybe less then 1m long and no more than 25-30cm wide. One has been surrounded by braid and velvet which I do not think is original but could be old-ish. What I found intriguing is the construction which you can partly see because the linen backing is loose where the thread has disappeared. There are two banners, one of which is more complex than the other. 1. Photos 1 to 8. This has not been bordered by the velvet. There are TWO layers of fabric embroidered - the top one has the geometric design and stumpwork, as well as the couched gold thread. Some thread is silver? (and has turned black) but there is a lot of gold. The background around the figures is in a diamond or herringbone textured pattern, while a lot of the figures has been sewn through the two layers in the colourful silk which you can see in pictures on the figures clothing and hair. Stumpwork forms the uprights of the architectural columns but I think this was covered in metal thread - it looks like crazy fine wire now blackened. The bottom figure which is only waist length is part of a different piece of fabric - you can feel the join - and there is no 'temple' design above it. Also the colour of the thread is different. The cords down the border edge of this panel are couched down and you can see bits of gold on them. The shots of the 'ghostly' figures are actually the back of this panel, rather than one unfinished. The silk hasn't faded here and there are some shockingly strong crimsons as well as peachy reds. Between the two layers of this is a crackled paste which seems to join and stiffen the original fabric - linen? Banner two has been joined loosely to the green velvet which is worn in places so re-used. I'm not aware of velvet vestments in my own (Orthodox) church but perhaps other traditions vary? There is no stumpwork an much less gold. The style of the haloes is very different and the background although still geometric, is not so elaborate as the first. Here there are also two layers joined by a (now cracked) paste but I don't want to open it more than a few stitches which have already dissolved. I hope this is of help for those knowledgeable souls who've been kind enough to help so far! Thanks again, Katherine "A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright ___ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice
Katherine, my "gut instinct" on the waistcoat is late 18th century, but I'm no expert. The curator of the Valentine museum in Richmond, VA (whose name is escaping me at the moment, it's been a few years) was quite studied on men's shirts and waiscoats of the 18th and 19th centuries and could probably give a more educated time frame. HTH-- LuAnn (who agrees these items are absolutely lovely...thanks for sharing) - Original Message - From: katherine sanders<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: h-costume@mail.indra.com<mailto:h-costume@mail.indra.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:36 AM Subject: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice Hi everyone! I've been asked to help stabilise some VERY old tapestry banners - if there are any embroiderers who think they have more of a clue than "north european, possibly 17h century" I'd be very happy to answer queries on them. More relevantly, the owner also has an exquisite embroidered waistcoat - I get a feeling it is early 19C but it is so vibrant I can't quite believe it. The construction is well illustrated by the photos as is the embroidery. It is still wearable but I've suggested it should be cleaned and packed away from light and other clothes in an acid-neutral environment. Anyone else - who knows more about men's costume - have more of an idea? It feels inspired by India but I couldn't tell you why... http://couthiecouturegallery.fotopic.net/<http://couthiecouturegallery.fotopic.net/> They're yummy to look at, even if you don't feel you can help :-) Katherine the vague, in a very sunny and cold Edinburgh "A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright ___ Yahoo! Photos - NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com<http://uk.photos.yahoo.com/> ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com<mailto:h-costume@mail.indra.com> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume<http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume> ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice
On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 09:36:49 + (GMT), katherine sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've been asked to help stabilise some VERY old tapestry banners - if there are any embroiderers who think they have more of a clue than "north european, possibly 17h century" I'd be very happy to answer queries on them. http://couthiecouturegallery.fotopic.net/ From what I can see in the photoes, I'd hassard that the first one might be maybe as early as 1350, but most likely 15thC. The colors are more or less compatible with mid 14thC english embroideries in the V&A.On the other hand, there is the golden/apricot color and what looks like orange. Do you have any idea if the golden shades might be faded madder reds or if it was golden all along ? I can't make out the stitches properly, but it looks like an Opus Anglicanum piece from what I see. The goldwork background used here seems to be a more common feature of the 15thC than the 14th from what I've seen over the years. There is a cope in Historisk Museum her in Oslo with an embroidered band bearing a superficial resemblance to this piece btw. The halfdone or very worn banner is hard to tell due to the stitches not being very visible.And too little of the pattern and colors are seen. Is it the back piece of the one above ? Or a separate one ? The 3rd one is the first I've seen with green velvet. Lots of apricot or faded madder reds, but too blurry to tell much. Opus Anglicanum work and couched gold background in different patterns ? The colors look more french than english to me, but as I can't see the details close enough... Thanks for posting these, I'd love to see these close up. Do you have any better detailed photoes ? Know anything about their history or origin ? Gunvor -- "Jeg har sagt ja og nei og DA får du lov" Anders (nesten 4 år) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice
Hi Katherine, Yum yum, thanks for posting the link. Oh god, i cant stand those embroideries :-) Its a mans waistcoat 1780-90 my guess. Feather patterns was very sheek in the 80ies. Cant help with the tappestries. Even though it looks very inspired from India it could have ben made anywhere in Europe, perhaps France? Bjarne - Original Message - From: "katherine sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:36 AM Subject: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice Hi everyone! I've been asked to help stabilise some VERY old tapestry banners - if there are any embroiderers who think they have more of a clue than "north european, possibly 17h century" I'd be very happy to answer queries on them. More relevantly, the owner also has an exquisite embroidered waistcoat - I get a feeling it is early 19C but it is so vibrant I can't quite believe it. The construction is well illustrated by the photos as is the embroidery. It is still wearable but I've suggested it should be cleaned and packed away from light and other clothes in an acid-neutral environment. Anyone else - who knows more about men's costume - have more of an idea? It feels inspired by India but I couldn't tell you why... http://couthiecouturegallery.fotopic.net/ They're yummy to look at, even if you don't feel you can help :-) Katherine the vague, in a very sunny and cold Edinburgh "A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright ___ Yahoo! Photos - NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice
At 01:36 AM 2/8/2006, you wrote: Hi everyone! I've been asked to help stabilise some VERY old tapestry banners - if there are any embroiderers who think they have more of a clue than "north european, possibly 17h century" I'd be very happy to answer queries on them. More relevantly, the owner also has an exquisite embroidered waistcoat - I get a feeling it is early 19C but it is so vibrant I can't quite believe it. The construction is well illustrated by the photos as is the embroidery. It is still wearable but I've suggested it should be cleaned and packed away from light and other clothes in an acid-neutral environment. Anyone else - who knows more about men's costume - have more of an idea? It feels inspired by India but I couldn't tell you why... http://couthiecouturegallery.fotopic.net/ They're yummy to look at, even if you don't feel you can help :-) Katherine the vague, in a very sunny and cold Edinburgh "A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright I can't view anything but the indices and the first picture of each set. The one picture of the waistcoat gives me the impression that it is later 18th rather than early 19th century (I'm no expert in this area, so take my impression for what it's worth :-D). Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice
At 13:38 08/02/2006, you wrote: The waistcoat looks late 18th Century to me. the vibrant colours were popular then too, and if pack away from light for the last couple of hundred years, would retain it's colour. It looks in fabulous condition! I would lightly vacum it, with a low power vacume like ones used in museums, but that's all before packing it away properly. "cleaning" often confuses people into washing it in water, which might damage the garment. No matter the condition, it shouldn't be worn any more. At the end of the 18th Century, fashions were becomming inspired by the near east. Archeaoligical digs in Egypt and expansion into the Medeterrianian and Eastward by England were influencing a new Classical era. That may be why you feel it's inspired by India. Looks yummy! Kelly in Nova Scotia Hi everyone! I've been asked to help stabilise some VERY old tapestry banners - if there are any embroiderers who think they have more of a clue than "north european, possibly 17h century" I'd be very happy to answer queries on them. More relevantly, the owner also has an exquisite embroidered waistcoat - I get a feeling it is early 19C but it is so vibrant I can't quite believe it. The construction is well illustrated by the photos as is the embroidery. It is still wearable but I've suggested it should be cleaned and packed away from light and other clothes in an acid-neutral environment. Anyone else - who knows more about men's costume - have more of an idea? It feels inspired by India but I couldn't tell you why... http://couthiecouturegallery.fotopic.net/ They're yummy to look at, even if you don't feel you can help :-) Katherine the vague, in a very sunny and cold Edinburgh It looks about 178- to me. I have half a waistcoat front from that era, and it has not faded at all - the silks were obviously very well dyed. I would suggest you contact a conservator at one of the many fine museums in Scotland, and ask for advice. I cannot remember where she works, but Naomi Tarrant is/was curator of costume at a Museum there - Shambellie House maybe? Sortry, I'm being vague too!! Suzi in sunny London, although clouding over as I type. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice
The waistcoat looks late 18th Century to me. the vibrant colours were popular then too, and if pack away from light for the last couple of hundred years, would retain it's colour. It looks in fabulous condition! I would lightly vacum it, with a low power vacume like ones used in museums, but that's all before packing it away properly. "cleaning" often confuses people into washing it in water, which might damage the garment. No matter the condition, it shouldn't be worn any more. At the end of the 18th Century, fashions were becomming inspired by the near east. Archeaoligical digs in Egypt and expansion into the Medeterrianian and Eastward by England were influencing a new Classical era. That may be why you feel it's inspired by India. Looks yummy! Kelly in Nova Scotia - Original Message - From: "katherine sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 5:36 AM Subject: [h-cost] Embroidery dating advice Hi everyone! I've been asked to help stabilise some VERY old tapestry banners - if there are any embroiderers who think they have more of a clue than "north european, possibly 17h century" I'd be very happy to answer queries on them. More relevantly, the owner also has an exquisite embroidered waistcoat - I get a feeling it is early 19C but it is so vibrant I can't quite believe it. The construction is well illustrated by the photos as is the embroidery. It is still wearable but I've suggested it should be cleaned and packed away from light and other clothes in an acid-neutral environment. Anyone else - who knows more about men's costume - have more of an idea? It feels inspired by India but I couldn't tell you why... http://couthiecouturegallery.fotopic.net/ They're yummy to look at, even if you don't feel you can help :-) Katherine the vague, in a very sunny and cold Edinburgh "A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright ___ Yahoo! Photos - NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Embroidery dating advice
Hi everyone! I've been asked to help stabilise some VERY old tapestry banners - if there are any embroiderers who think they have more of a clue than "north european, possibly 17h century" I'd be very happy to answer queries on them. More relevantly, the owner also has an exquisite embroidered waistcoat - I get a feeling it is early 19C but it is so vibrant I can't quite believe it. The construction is well illustrated by the photos as is the embroidery. It is still wearable but I've suggested it should be cleaned and packed away from light and other clothes in an acid-neutral environment. Anyone else - who knows more about men's costume - have more of an idea? It feels inspired by India but I couldn't tell you why... http://couthiecouturegallery.fotopic.net/ They're yummy to look at, even if you don't feel you can help :-) Katherine the vague, in a very sunny and cold Edinburgh "A positive attitude may not solve all of your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort" - Herm Albright ___ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
