Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Greetings, I'm pretty sure you speaking of: Hearn, Karen. Marcus Gheeraerts II: Elizabethan Artist in Focus. London: Tate Publishing, 2002. It's a small book but the exhibition itself was only one room, IIRC. Worth picking up if you can find it. cheers, Danielle At 02:01 PM 1/26/2006, you wrote: Thanks so much. I haven't seen that one before, and, yes, it surely does look like Eleanora. In 1999 I went to London with some friends. While there we attended a Study Day at the VA. It was originally intended to be lead by Janet Arnold, but she had passed away the previous autumn. So it turned into a kind of rememberance of her. Anyway, one of the curators from the Tate said that she was working gathering images of pregnant ladies for (I believe) a book. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't an exhibition. Has anyone heard or seen anything about this? Just curious. And thanks again, Susan. With regards, kate PS: Does anyone know if there is a publication date for Janet Arnold's book on underwear? That was one other thing that was discussed that day. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Thanks so much. I haven't seen that one before, and, yes, it surely does look like Eleanora. In 1999 I went to London with some friends. While there we attended a Study Day at the VA. It was originally intended to be lead by Janet Arnold, but she had passed away the previous autumn. So it turned into a kind of rememberance of her. Anyway, one of the curators from the Tate said that she was working gathering images of pregnant ladies for (I believe) a book. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't an exhibition. Has anyone heard or seen anything about this? Just curious. And thanks again, Susan. With regards, kate PS: Does anyone know if there is a publication date for Janet Arnold's book on underwear? That was one other thing that was discussed that day. - Original Message - From: Susan B. Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays Quoting Ailith Mackintosh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, please! I'd love to see possible Eleanor of Toledo. The tinyurl is the link to the same page . Well, it's definately Eleanora (I found this one on the web somewhere, and seem to have misplaced the information. If it's yours, please let me know) just look at that pregnant face ... http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/bronzinoFollower_EleanorToledo.jpg http://tinyurl.com/9fn48 and she certainly looks pregnant to me! Bianca Capello -- found this one on the web too http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/unNoted_BiancaCapello.jpg http://tinyurl.com/css6h Wife of John Thynne -- found this one on the web as well http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/english_WifeJohnThynne-euh02108.jpg http://tinyurl.com/b8vw9 Maegherita of Austria http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/gonzalez_MargheritaAustria.jpg http://tinyurl.com/8rqty The 2 by Marcus gheeraerts, I found here http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ArtistWorks?cgroupid=99961artistid=206 The Pearly Queen http://www.tate.org.uk/collection/T/T07/T07699_9.jpg and protrait of a woman in red http://www.tate.org.uk/collection/T/T03/T03456_9.jpg That last one is from 1620. Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
At 20:01 26/01/2006, you wrote: Thanks so much. I haven't seen that one before, and, yes, it surely does look like Eleanora. In 1999 I went to London with some friends. While there we attended a Study Day at the VA. It was originally intended to be lead by Janet Arnold, but she had passed away the previous autumn. So it turned into a kind of rememberance of her. Anyway, one of the curators from the Tate said that she was working gathering images of pregnant ladies for (I believe) a book. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't an exhibition. Has anyone heard or seen anything about this? Just curious. And thanks again, Susan. With regards, kate PS: Does anyone know if there is a publication date for Janet Arnold's book on underwear? That was one other thing that was discussed that day. I have not heard of a book specifically on pregnant fashion. I try to get updates from various friends of Janet's in the Museum world, and so far no-one has a sniff of a date. There were two books at the 4th draft stage, according to Janet, before she died, one of which was the underwear book. The other was kind of filling the gap between 1620 and 1660, she told me, but with all the other stuff from earlier that she had found since writing the other books. Her literary executors are writers and lecturers in their own right, and presumably don't have time to spend on her books as they might wish. I will ask again after this weekend, when I will have 4 Tudor dresses being worn (not finished - I need the three weeks they brought the deadline forward by to do that), but wearable - thank God for theatre training!! Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Quoting Ailith Mackintosh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: *snippage Anyway, one of the curators from the Tate said that she was working gathering images of pregnant ladies for (I believe) a book. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't an exhibition. Has anyone heard or seen anything about this? No, I hadn't, but that would just be too cool. Of course there are a lot from the earlier medieval period, but they're all of The Virgin Mary. I know that the one of Margherita of Austria was the first one that I ever saw. I was looking through the museum booklet from that Splendor in Italy exhibit where they replicated garb from some paintings -- and it was *wow* She's *pregnant* -- that's the painting that started me looking for Pregnant Women. Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Gah! I think that's the one that that came to mind for me as well, she is literally covered in pearls, right? I did a quick search on Lady Burghley and couldn't find the painting. I'll have to do a little more digging. She however is an example of nobility, rather than middle class, which is where the focus of my efforts are. But.. it's a start. I know that there's a portrait of Lady Burghley in a very pregnant state wearing a kirtle and surcoat. :-) I appreciate the concern, however I personally can't event *get* pregnant anymore, so miscarriage is not a concern of mine. It is indeed a concern to the person I would be making it for, however. The Gestational stays that I am thinking of have expansion lacing in the front so as not to constrict the belly. This is something of a nosy bit of research to see how such a thing was handled at the time. Hi Kathy, First off, let me warn you not to wear stays during your pregnancy, I know from my research in Venetian dress, indeed, they wore what amounted to a muumuu type.. thing... chiton? sort of affair in the last days when nothing will fit. This is however, in the stages of full confinement when no one will see her except immediate family. Since breast binding wasn't an unheard of thing, it is possible that they bound, just enough for support and wore looser clothing. This is a logical assumption, it's a question of what happens after they outgrew their stays - did they have a soft pair of bodies? Or, is it like the pattern I have described and has expansion lacing in a say, quilt-stiffened corset? Or as you suggest, and bound? I'm thinking to, that quite possibly they loosened their stays as they got bigger, until the point they couldn't wear them. then again too, Elizabethan corsetry wasn't designed to be tightened severely. That's a Victorian convention. as in tight lacing... Kathy Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Well, I didn't do a whole lot of research into it, but I was in the last trimester of my pregnancy last year during Faire, and simply wore a very good supporting bra under my loose kirtle and surcoat. My character is solidly middle-class. With the kirtle/surcoat outfit, you really don't need stays or hoops underneath to achieve the right look - using a stiff facing at the bottom of the kirtle achieved the needed stick-out-ness without any petticoats or hoops (which wouldn't fit over an ever-expanding belly :-) My second outfit was based on a Flemish working-woman kirtle and front-laced overgown. This worked well, as I could let out the laces as needed, or dispense with the overgown if the day was really hot. (Same with the surcoat above). If the undergown is fitted correctly, it is supposed to support without any corsetry at all. I, however, have never been able to do this fitting on myself satisfactorily, and so again wore a bra during pregnancy, and wear reed-boned stays otherwise. I have photos, but nowhere to put them up online. I can send them to you directly if you would like - let me know. *** Rebecca Schmitt aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence Bristol Renaissance Faire My arms are too short to box with God. --Johnny Cash *** ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Quoting Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gah! I think that's the one that that came to mind for me as well, she is literally covered in pearls, right? I did a quick search on Lady Burghley and couldn't find the painting. I'll have to do a little more digging. She however is an example of nobility, rather than middle class, which is where the focus of my efforts are. But.. it's a start. I know that there's a portrait of Lady Burghley in a very pregnant state wearing a kirtle and surcoat. I don't think that's the correct name for the covered in pearls painting; I couldn't find it under that name either. I've found about a half dozen or so paintings of pregnant women late in the SCA period -- including one that's just out of period. I can see about getting them posted somewhere if y'all are interested; one of them appears to be a pregnant Eleanor of Toledo! Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Yes, please! I'd love to see possible Eleanor of Toledo. Thanks. kate - Original Message - From: Susan B. Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays Quoting Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gah! I think that's the one that that came to mind for me as well, she is literally covered in pearls, right? I did a quick search on Lady Burghley and couldn't find the painting. I'll have to do a little more digging. She however is an example of nobility, rather than middle class, which is where the focus of my efforts are. But.. it's a start. I know that there's a portrait of Lady Burghley in a very pregnant state wearing a kirtle and surcoat. I don't think that's the correct name for the covered in pearls painting; I couldn't find it under that name either. I've found about a half dozen or so paintings of pregnant women late in the SCA period -- including one that's just out of period. I can see about getting them posted somewhere if y'all are interested; one of them appears to be a pregnant Eleanor of Toledo! Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Quoting michaela [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I know that there's a portrait of Lady Burghley in a very pregnant state wearing a kirtle and surcoat. I have a picture of Mildred Coke, Lady Burghley, 1562-3, oil on panel. She is wearing a surcoat, what look to be black/red worked sleeves and partlet (it's a black and white image but this seems a reasonable assumption) and an unusual garment underneath. There is a girdle around her expanding middle and above that are diagonal lines of scalloped trim. Below the girdle is a plain skirt. There is also a very narrow horizontal line just below her breasts. Her sleeves reflect the scallop shape, but they are upside down and rather more ornate. Cool. Where did you find this wonderful picture? Jerusha - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Hi -- The Eleonora painting was auctioned off at Sotheby's this past year. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Susan B. Farmer Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:54 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays Quoting Ailith Mackintosh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, please! I'd love to see possible Eleanor of Toledo. The tinyurl is the link to the same page . Well, it's definately Eleanora (I found this one on the web somewhere, and seem to have misplaced the information. If it's yours, please let me know) just look at that pregnant face ... http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/bronzinoFollower_EleanorTole do.jpg http://tinyurl.com/9fn48 and she certainly looks pregnant to me! Bianca Capello -- found this one on the web too http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/unNoted_BiancaCapello.jpg http://tinyurl.com/css6h Wife of John Thynne -- found this one on the web as well http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/english_WifeJohnThynne-euh02 108.jpg http://tinyurl.com/b8vw9 Maegherita of Austria http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/gonzalez_MargheritaAustria.j pg http://tinyurl.com/8rqty The 2 by Marcus gheeraerts, I found here http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ArtistWorks?cgroupid=99961artistid=206 The Pearly Queen http://www.tate.org.uk/collection/T/T07/T07699_9.jpg and protrait of a woman in red http://www.tate.org.uk/collection/T/T03/T03456_9.jpg That last one is from 1620. Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Quoting monica spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi -- The Eleonora painting was auctioned off at Sotheby's this past year. That's right! Thanks. Jerusha (busily making a note ...) - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
The painting of Lady Burley can be found in Roy Strong's The English Icon-- however it is in BW. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ailith Mackintosh Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 4:05 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays Yes, please! I'd love to see possible Eleanor of Toledo. Thanks. kate - Original Message - From: Susan B. Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays Quoting Kathy Page [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gah! I think that's the one that that came to mind for me as well, she is literally covered in pearls, right? I did a quick search on Lady Burghley and couldn't find the painting. I'll have to do a little more digging. She however is an example of nobility, rather than middle class, which is where the focus of my efforts are. But.. it's a start. I know that there's a portrait of Lady Burghley in a very pregnant state wearing a kirtle and surcoat. I don't think that's the correct name for the covered in pearls painting; I couldn't find it under that name either. I've found about a half dozen or so paintings of pregnant women late in the SCA period -- including one that's just out of period. I can see about getting them posted somewhere if y'all are interested; one of them appears to be a pregnant Eleanor of Toledo! Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Quoting monica spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The painting of Lady Burley can be found in Roy Strong's The English Icon-- however it is in BW. *chuckle* We have 30 books by Roy Strong at my university library. The English Icon is *not* one of them! Jerusha - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Rebecca, Please do. The more references we have, the happier we will be. :-) Kathy I have photos, but nowhere to put them up online. I can send them to you directly if you would like - let me know. Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Susan, That would be great! I am asking as a part of a team for a costuming competition, so having a link with several useful things on it would be grand. :-) We are planning a middle class English/Flemish loose gown. The model is planning a pregancy, so we wanted to make sure we had all the accomodation for it - it would add an interesting touch to the research. Kathy I've found about a half dozen or so paintings of pregnant women late in the SCA period -- including one that's just out of period. I can see about getting them posted somewhere if y'all are interested; one of them appears to be a pregnant Eleanor of Toledo! Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert Its never too late to be who you might have been. -George Eliot For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it. -Ivan Panin __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Gestational Stays
Sorry if this has already been posted, I have only briefly been skimming these emails. :-) This should be one of the paintings everyone has been discussing: http://www.tate.org.uk/magazine/issue4/pearlyqueen_image1.htm Here's another one by the same artist: (you may have to cut and paste) http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=99961workid=5136searchid=9046 I had saved a copy of the first picture to my hard drive some time ago and I thought it should still be up somewhere. I googled images under 'pearly queen'. Sheridan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
