Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
On 6 October 2011 18:46, Rob Malpass li...@getiton.myzen.co.uk wrote: Hi all Yes this old chestnut again. Like most of us I guess, I have quite a few old hdds and we're now in chuck away mood. Physically I'll be disposing of these in as environmentally friendly a way as I can but destroying data is, as I remember, a bit tricky. I know data can be recovered even if you wipe the partition etc so here's my plan - any ideas how robust this is?? Essentially without a safe data shredding program, I'm going to use truecrypt to create an encrypted partition over whatever data was there beforehand. AFAIK this must overwrite what was there with a blank drive (not just a new partition table) which could only be accessed if they guessed my truecrypt encrypted password. So at best, someone could only ever get back to the blank encrypted drive - not the ntfs partition that was there before I formatted it with truecrypt. I guess anything's possible but how decent a solution is this? If you really have to erase all trace of the data, you should really have thought about that before writing it to the HD. Normal practice now is to use whole disk encryption. Then, to erase the whole disk, just erase the key. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
I'm not sure the TrueCrypt solution will work. Normally when you create a filesystem/partition, the tools write out the minimum data they can - generally the partition layout in the MBR and the file allocation table at the beginning of the disk (and in a number of backup places throughout the disk in the case of ext3/ReiserFS/any decent modern filesystem). Formatting your drive rarely overwrites all of the data on the drive, it just leaves the file data intact and marks those regions as 'unallocated' so that the system doesn't get confused. TrueCrypt /might/ overwrite the whole drive, but I certainly wouldn't take it for granted - it's intended to protect the data contained within the new filesystem, not the data that was there beforehand. Generally you can tell by how long it takes to format the drive - assuming a sustained average write speed of 150MB/s it would take almost 4 hours to fully overwrite a 2TB drive - with encryption this is likely to take even longer. You could of course create the TrueCrypt partition and then fill it up 100% with whatever data you want, e.g. dd if=/dev/zero of=/mnt/truecrype/file, but this would still leave one piece of data on the drive - your TrueCrypt password - so be sure to set this to something you don't use for anything else ;) I doubt anyone has the resources to use an electron microscope to partially recover some of the data from your drive for teh lulz, so unless you have something serious to hide I'd suggest that just overwriting the drive with zeros using dd is perfectly sufficient - this should erase the MBR and partition layout too, not just the data on the partitions. If I was really worried then I would then smash the drive with a lump hammer to necessitate physical recovery. You are talking about a semi-modern HDD - not a 256MB one - right? Cheers, Benjie. PS: A quick glance at the TrueCrypt 'beginners tutorial' has this note (relating to creating a filesystem in a file): IMPORTANT: Note that TrueCrypt will not encrypt any existing files (when creating a TrueCrypt file container). If you select an existing file in this step, it will be overwritten and replaced by the newly created volume (so the overwritten file will be lost, not encrypted). You will be able to encrypt existing files (later on) by moving them to the TrueCrypt volume that we are creating now.* -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
On 7 Oct 2011, at 09:05, James Courtier-Dutton wrote: If you really have to erase all trace of the data, you should really have thought about that before writing it to the HD. Normal practice now is to use whole disk encryption. Then, to erase the whole disk, just erase the key. That's a valid solution, but not a hugely secure one: since the layout of the filesystem is quite predictable in places you can use this knowledge of the crypted data to help you break the encryption, the only requirement is time. Other weaknesses include key backups and weak passwords. There's also high resource attack methods round the corner such as quantum computers which should be able to decrypt most encryption very quickly. Or even GPU farms which are easily rentable on Amazon's EC2 by the hour, here's some software you might use to break the encryption using these: http://www.elcomsoft.com/edpr.html Personally, I'd dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda even though I have full disk encryption enabled, you never know what's round the corner. If I was really concerned then I'd use shred (or DBAN).-- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
If I was really concerned then I'd use shred (or DBAN).-- Given how easy it is to use DBAN (or nwipe if you want to use it in a more familiar setting), I'm surprised we're arguing over the relative strengths of unproven erase strategies... Vic. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
On 7 October 2011 09:19, Benjie Gillam ben...@jemjie.com wrote: On 7 Oct 2011, at 09:05, James Courtier-Dutton wrote: If you really have to erase all trace of the data, you should really have thought about that before writing it to the HD. Normal practice now is to use whole disk encryption. Then, to erase the whole disk, just erase the key. That's a valid solution, but not a hugely secure one: since the layout of the filesystem is quite predictable in places you can use this knowledge of the crypted data to help you break the encryption, the only requirement is time. Other weaknesses include key backups and weak passwords. There's also high resource attack methods round the corner such as quantum computers which should be able to decrypt most encryption very quickly. Or even GPU farms which are easily rentable on Amazon's EC2 by the hour, here's some software you might use to break the encryption using these: http://www.elcomsoft.com/edpr.html Personally, I'd dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/sda even though I have full disk encryption enabled, you never know what's round the corner. If I was really concerned then I'd use shred (or DBAN). True on some points. The trick is to choose the right encryption algorithm. Of the encryption algorithms in the Linux kernel, does anyone know how they score, on a easy to hard to crack scale? -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
Good morning group, On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 09:05 +0100, James Courtier-Dutton wrote: On 6 October 2011 18:46, Rob Malpass li...@getiton.myzen.co.uk wrote: Hi all Yes this old chestnut again. Like most of us I guess, I have quite a few old hdds and we're now in chuck away mood. Physically I'll be disposing of these in as environmentally friendly a way as I can but destroying data is, as I remember, a bit tricky. I know data can be recovered even if you wipe the partition etc so here's my plan - any ideas how robust this is?? If you really have to erase all trace of the data, you should really have thought about that before writing it to the HD. Normal practice now is to use whole disk encryption. Then, to erase the whole disk, just erase the key. Despite the popular media connotations and mention of TLA organisations, with regards to spurious data stored on hard disk drives, this issue shouldn't be marred. What is very valuable in this new economy, is BI - business intelligence. An obvious example of BI is customer data. Less obvious is evidence of marketing objectives. For example, after I have been on contract, during which, if my own hardware was used to undertake tasks - then the hardware gets wiped or stronger, depending on agreed or implied NDA levels. Insurance is also a consideration. Best Damian -- Interlinux Engineering Foundation http://www.interlinux.org.uk Central, non-trading, administration, governance and dissemination of foundation intellectual property and know-how. GPG 8A7E551C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
On 7 October 2011 10:19, Damian L Brasher l...@interlinux.org.uk wrote: Good morning group, On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 09:05 +0100, James Courtier-Dutton wrote: On 6 October 2011 18:46, Rob Malpass li...@getiton.myzen.co.uk wrote: Hi all Yes this old chestnut again. Like most of us I guess, I have quite a few old hdds and we're now in chuck away mood. Physically I'll be disposing of these in as environmentally friendly a way as I can but destroying data is, as I remember, a bit tricky. I know data can be recovered even if you wipe the partition etc so here's my plan - any ideas how robust this is?? If you're throwing it away, a sledgehammer has always worked for me! Chris. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
On 6 October 2011 18:46, Rob Malpass li...@getiton.myzen.co.uk wrote: I guess anything's possible but how decent a solution is this? Use DBAN and get on with your life :D Al. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
On 7 Oct 2011, at 10:30, Alan Pope wrote: Use DBAN and get on with your life :D Get on with your life after the many hours it takes to run... Assuming you're not intending to reuse or redistribute it, and that you have or can borrow a sledgehammer: sledgehammer it and get on with your life, it's not just faster, but cheaper and easier too, and better for the environment... and more fun! :D -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
On 7 October 2011 10:53, Benjie Gillam ben...@jemjie.com wrote: On 7 Oct 2011, at 10:30, Alan Pope wrote: Use DBAN and get on with your life :D Get on with your life after the many hours it takes to run... I wouldn't advocate watching that particular pot boil, no. Assuming you're not intending to reuse or redistribute it, and that you have or can borrow a sledgehammer: sledgehammer it and get on with your life, it's not just faster, but cheaper and easier too, and better for the environment... and more fun! :D Why would you not reuse or redistribute it once you've wiped it? I fail to see how smashing a working device up is better for the environment than anything. I can see how it can be fun though :) Al. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Data Destruction
On 7 October 2011 10:55, Alan Pope a...@popey.com wrote: On 7 October 2011 10:53, Benjie Gillam ben...@jemjie.com wrote: On 7 Oct 2011, at 10:30, Alan Pope wrote: Use DBAN and get on with your life :D Get on with your life after the many hours it takes to run... I wouldn't advocate watching that particular pot boil, no. Assuming you're not intending to reuse or redistribute it, and that you have or can borrow a sledgehammer: sledgehammer it and get on with your life, it's not just faster, but cheaper and easier too, and better for the environment... and more fun! :D Why would you not reuse or redistribute it once you've wiped it? I fail to see how smashing a working device up is better for the environment than anything. I can see how it can be fun though :) Al. I bought a mobile phone on ebay. It works very nicely, but unfortunately, it contained a lot of rather interesting photos of the previous owner. I could have had a lot of fun on facebook with them! But, I am not that sort of person. For this situation, simply zeroing out the phone storage partition that contained the pictures would have been enough. I would not have bothered to try any forensic techniques on the device. Interestingly, now days, it is far more easy to recover previously deleted/overwritten data on flash sticks than HDs. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
[Hampshire] remote assistance software for blind users.
Hi, This email is in regards to remote assistance software. I am looking for a remote assistance tool that does not require the user requesting assistance, to have to accept a connection or have to enter any type of code. The reason I am asking is due to one of the users being blind and his screen reading software not picking up acceptance requests or pop-ups. Do you know of any such software? Kind Regards James -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] remote assistance software for blind users.
On 7 October 2011 11:24, James Courtier-Dutton james.dut...@gmail.com wrote: This email is in regards to remote assistance software. I am looking for a remote assistance tool that does not require the user requesting assistance, to have to accept a connection or have to enter any type of code. The reason I am asking is due to one of the users being blind and his screen reading software not picking up acceptance requests or pop-ups. Do you know of any such software? What platform? For my mum I have registered a dynamic DNS hostname and pointed it at her machine, which updates using ddclient. I opened an ssh port through to her Ubuntu desktop and set it up to use key based logon only for security. I configured the GNOME based remote desktop server built into Ubuntu to just let me connect with no prompt, and set a password. My mum phones me when she needs help. I just go to my computer and do this:- vncviewer -via mumsmachine.dyndns.org localhost This sets up an SSH tunnel to her computer and then connects to the vnc server on her pc and prompts me for the vnc password. I type that and instantly see her desktop. Easy peasy. Al. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] remote assistance software for blind users.
On 7 October 2011 11:28, Alan Pope a...@popey.com wrote: On 7 October 2011 11:24, James Courtier-Dutton james.dut...@gmail.com wrote: This email is in regards to remote assistance software. I am looking for a remote assistance tool that does not require the user requesting assistance, to have to accept a connection or have to enter any type of code. The reason I am asking is due to one of the users being blind and his screen reading software not picking up acceptance requests or pop-ups. Do you know of any such software? What platform? For my mum I have registered a dynamic DNS hostname and pointed it at her machine, which updates using ddclient. I opened an ssh port through to her Ubuntu desktop and set it up to use key based logon only for security. I configured the GNOME based remote desktop server built into Ubuntu to just let me connect with no prompt, and set a password. My mum phones me when she needs help. I just go to my computer and do this:- vncviewer -via mumsmachine.dyndns.org localhost This sets up an SSH tunnel to her computer and then connects to the vnc server on her pc and prompts me for the vnc password. I type that and instantly see her desktop. Easy peasy. Al. Sorry, I posted to the wrong forum. This is a windows problem. Not related to Linux in any way. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] remote assistance software for blind users.
... Sorry, I posted to the wrong forum. I for one am glad you made this mistake. This is just the thing I'll need to do soon on my Mum's machine. (Which is running Ubuntu 10.10) Thanks James, Al ! :) Bob. -- Bob Beattie Senior Technical Support Engineer Camera Development Systems, MP RD, Nokia Southwood, UK Tel : +44 (0)1252 866452 www.nokia.com -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] remote assistance software for blind users.
Hi On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 11:28 +0100, Alan Pope wrote: My mum phones me when she needs help. I just go to my computer and do this:- vncviewer -via mumsmachine.dyndns.org localhost This sets up an SSH tunnel to her computer and then connects to the vnc server on her pc and prompts me for the vnc password. I type that and instantly see her desktop. Easy peasy. Neat, funny enough, my Mum wants to invest in the internet. As a brand new user she is not addicted to the the Windows OS. She will probably hesitate if offered a dead man's tablet, OSX (my Dell ceasing is a dull as it was 5 years ago, no duller), she will probably love Ubuntu. Damian -- Interlinux Engineering Foundation http://www.interlinux.org.uk Central, non-trading, administration, governance and dissemination of foundation intellectual property and know-how. GPG 8A7E551C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Domestic ADSL ISPs
This is my exchange in westhoughton lancashire http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LCWES There seems to be only a few LLU looking at that list which are: LLU operator presence: AOL: Enabled O2 / Be: Enabled CW / Bulldog: Enabled as of 13/06/2006 So if i want to bypass talktalk in moving ie not require a MAC code Be would the best of the three LLU operators? Martin N At 06:30 05/04/2011, you wrote: Hi, One note to think about when changing ISP's is that if you are chaning to an LLU ISP you do NOT need to get a MAC code from your current ISP :-) Richard On 5 April 2011 00:35, Martin N mailto:marti...@bluebottle.commarti...@bluebottle.com wrote: At 11:15 04/04/2011, you wrote: Hi, I currently have Talk-Talk as my ISP at home, originally starting with Nildram and as them changed hands many times (Pipex - Tiscali - TalkTalk). It's fair to say that the customer service standard has dropped with each take over and while the monthly cost has fallen a little. I'm coming to towards the end of my most recent 12-month contract and I'm considering alternatives. I am in a similar boat having joined pipex initially for a better service but i have frequent disconnects with tiscali and talk talk . Their help line is in India as well. :( It would be good to know how talk talk handle the MAC code? transfer to another ISP. I heard a while ago that talk talk are poor at cooperating with ISP switch overs away from them. I dont want to be without broadband for weeks or maybe months just because talk talk drag their feet. This is why i haven't switched yet. Martin N Running MorphOS v2.6 (Nov 2010) on Mac Mini, Moderator of MiniDisc,amithlonopen,bwfc Yahoogroups -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Domestic ADSL ISPs
This is my exchange in westhoughton lancashire http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LCWES There seems to be only a few LLU looking at that list which are: LLU operator presence: AOL: Enabled O2 / Be: Enabled CW / Bulldog: Enabled as of 13/06/2006 So if i want to bypass talktalk in moving ie not require a MAC code Be would the best of the three LLU operators? Martin N At 06:30 05/04/2011, you wrote: Hi, One note to think about when changing ISP's is that if you are chaning to an LLU ISP you do NOT need to get a MAC code from your current ISP :-) Richard On 5 April 2011 00:35, Martin N mailto:marti...@bluebottle.commarti...@bluebottle.com wrote: At 11:15 04/04/2011, you wrote: Hi, I currently have Talk-Talk as my ISP at home, originally starting with Nildram and as them changed hands many times (Pipex - Tiscali - TalkTalk). It's fair to say that the customer service standard has dropped with each take over and while the monthly cost has fallen a little. I'm coming to towards the end of my most recent 12-month contract and I'm considering alternatives. I am in a similar boat having joined pipex initially for a better service but i have frequent disconnects with tiscali and talk talk . Their help line is in India as well. :( It would be good to know how talk talk handle the MAC code? transfer to another ISP. I heard a while ago that talk talk are poor at cooperating with ISP switch overs away from them. I dont want to be without broadband for weeks or maybe months just because talk talk drag their feet. This is why i haven't switched yet. Martin N Running MorphOS v2.6 (Nov 2010) on Mac Mini, Moderator of MiniDisc,amithlonopen,bwfc Yahoogroups -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Domestic ADSL ISPs
I would vote for Be here or Andrews and Arnolds over a Be line. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Domestic ADSL ISPs
This is my exchange in westhoughton lancashire http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LCWES There seems to be only a few LLU looking at that list which are: LLU operator presence: AOL: Enabled O2 / Be: Enabled CW / Bulldog: Enabled as of 13/06/2006 So if i want to bypass talktalk in moving ie not require a MAC code Be would the best of the three LLU operators? Martin N At 06:30 05/04/2011, you wrote: Hi, One note to think about when changing ISP's is that if you are chaning to an LLU ISP you do NOT need to get a MAC code from your current ISP :-) Richard On 5 April 2011 00:35, Martin N mailto:marti...@bluebottle.commarti...@bluebottle.com wrote: At 11:15 04/04/2011, you wrote: Hi, I currently have Talk-Talk as my ISP at home, originally starting with Nildram and as them changed hands many times (Pipex - Tiscali - TalkTalk). It's fair to say that the customer service standard has dropped with each take over and while the monthly cost has fallen a little. I'm coming to towards the end of my most recent 12-month contract and I'm considering alternatives. I am in a similar boat having joined pipex initially for a better service but i have frequent disconnects with tiscali and talk talk . Their help line is in India as well. :( It would be good to know how talk talk handle the MAC code? transfer to another ISP. I heard a while ago that talk talk are poor at cooperating with ISP switch overs away from them. I dont want to be without broadband for weeks or maybe months just because talk talk drag their feet. This is why i haven't switched yet. Martin N Running MorphOS v2.6 (Nov 2010) on Mac Mini, Moderator of MiniDisc,amithlonopen,bwfc Yahoogroups -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Domestic ADSL ISPs
On Thursday 06 October 2011 15:29:41 Martin N wrote: This is my exchange in westhoughton lancashire http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/LCWES There seems to be only a few LLU looking at that list which are: LLU operator presence: AOL: Enabled O2 / Be: Enabled CW / Bulldog: Enabled as of 13/06/2006 Be a little wary of Samknows, and check any data that you actually mind about. I have just checked my exchange, out of interest. The results were pure fiction, and exceed even my wildest dreams. Even had us able to have Virgin cable superfast!! And did not mention the ones I know for a fact we can get. Actual conversations with ISPs/BT: When may our exchange be local loop unbundled? Don't know. There are no plans at present. When may we hope to get cable? Don't know. We have no plans at present. My ISP the day before yesterday: You're not even 21Cn enabled! The government says that the whole country will have superfast broadband by 2015. So I have hopes for 31-12-2015. ;-) But the information on Samknows was total rubbish. Lisi -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Domestic ADSL ISPs
Seconded. BE ADSL lines are less prone to BT provided ones. No DLM for one. James Bensley jwbens...@gmail.com wrote: I would vote for Be here or Andrews and Arnolds over a Be line. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] Domestic ADSL ISPs
Less prone as in less reliable on BT servicing the line if anything goes wrong and the included wait? DLM? what is that? Download Load Management? as a guess. Martin N At 18:45 07/10/2011, Ian Grody wrote: Seconded. BE ADSL lines are less prone to BT provided ones. No DLM for one. James Bensley jwbens...@gmail.com wrote: I would vote for Be here or Andrews and Arnolds over a Be line. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk -- Running MorphOS v2.6 (Nov 2010) on Mac Mini, Moderator of MiniDisc,amithlonopen,bwfc Yahoogroups -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
