Ryan Ingram ryani.s...@gmail.com writes:
You can emulate mutation with at most O(log(n)) penalty using a map. Given
that memory is of fixed size, log2(n) = 64, so for real-world programs
this becomes O(1).
I'm not sure assuming fixed size memory is a good idea for a theoretical
discussion -
Quoth Jeff Shaw shawj...@msu.edu,
...
I'm thinking that side effects are really only necessary because Haskell
programs expect to mutate the state of a computer outside of the haskell
program.
I'm not a computer scientist, but in English, side effect is an
effect that accompanies some other
On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 5:41 AM, Donn Cave d...@avvanta.com wrote:
I hope the answer is not that in computer science we regard all
effects as side effects because the ideal computer program simply
exists without consequence.
The answer is that side effects has become something of a figure of
Apparently on such solid ground that you hinder their critical thinking
skills by answering for them.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Donn Cave d...@avvanta.com wrote:
Quoth KC kc1...@gmail.com,
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk
jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr wrote:
...
KC comments the posting of Donn Cave referring to the soundness of some
potential approach of software engineers:
Apparently on such solid ground that you hinder their critical
thinking skills by answering for them
Monsieur KC, do you want to discuss, or just to be cute?
In both cases, begin
Quoth Chris Smith cdsm...@gmail.com,
...
The answer is that side effects has become something of a figure of
speech, and now has a specialized meaning in programming languages.
When we're talking about different uses of the word function in
programming languages, side effects refer to any
Christopher,
On 16/03/2012, at 11:23 PM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
there is a question I have been thinking about a bit. In short, we could
simply formulate it like this:
Are there any problems which cannot be solved a side effect-free language
(such as Haskell)? In other words, are
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Christopher Svanefalk
christopher.svanef...@gmail.com wrote:
Are there any problems which cannot be solved a side effect-free language
(such as Haskell)? In other words, are there problems that would explicitly
demand semantics that can only be provided by a
Hi there,
Christopher Svanefalk christopher.svanef...@gmail.com wrote:
there is a question I have been thinking about a bit. In short, we
could simply formulate it like this:
Are there any problems which *cannot *be solved a side effect-free
language (such as Haskell)? In other words, are
Hi,
Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
Are there any problems which *cannot* be solved a side effect-free language
(such as Haskell)?
No. Haskell is expressive enough.
One way to prove that is to implement an interpreter for a language with
side effects in Haskell. Now if there's a program P to
Many thanks for the replies and references all of you! I will continue to
read up on this from here, and you have all boosted my interest in
investigating how complex systems could be developed using functional
languages.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Dimitri Scheftelowitsch
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Felipe Almeida Lessa
felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote:
If you're asking about performance, as in is there a problem that can
be solved in O(f(n)) time in Java but not in Haskell-sans-IO-and-ST?,
then it becomes a harder question. I'm not sure what the answer is.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:43 PM, serialhex serial...@gmail.com wrote:
an interesting question emerges: even though i may be able to implement an
algorithm with O(f(n)) in Haskell, and write a program that is O(g(n))
O(f(n)) in C++ or Java... could Haskell be said to be more efficient if
If the question is when can I have my output, then both are equally
relevant and can be safely conflated.
That said, while some programming problems *are* of this type, I think
most aren't, and your points certainly stand.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Chris Smith cdsm...@gmail.com wrote:
You can emulate mutation with at most O(log(n)) penalty using a map. Given
that memory is of fixed size, log2(n) = 64, so for real-world programs
this becomes O(1). So any program you can implement using mutation can be
implemented in a pure language with the same big-O running time (but much
Ryan Ingram:
Other external state is harder to emulate. For example, communication
over a network most definitely requires some concept of a 'computation
with side effects' since the network's response could change from
request to request.
In GHC, even IO objects are pure, but they
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk
jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr wrote:
... but the question of purity of a program - in my opinion - concerns the
program, and nothing else.
You might be thinking of software engineering purity.
The networking is not expected to break the
Quoth KC kc1...@gmail.com,
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk
jerzy.karczmarc...@unicaen.fr wrote:
... but the question of purity of a program - in my opinion - concerns
the program, and nothing else.
You might be thinking of software engineering purity.
Or software
It is the third or the fourth time that somebody recently puts the
equivalence between the communication with the outer world, and side
effects. I contest that very strongly, perhaps a TRUE guru might
instruct me.
I think there are three key concepts rumbling around in this discussion
that
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