Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
It's interesting to see what will happen to Unity3D. This great casual game development tool offers support for exporting to iPhone. They are hit by Apple's new developer license - because they generate code - but apparently, apps generated by Unity3D do end up in the Apple store... Now.. Unity 3D is also planning to support Android in the future. I wouldn't be surprised that as soon as you can export games for both iPhone and Android with a simple click, that Apple would prohibit Unity3D generated games, as they have the power with their license agreement, who knows. See e.g. http://blogs.unity3d.com/2010/04/10/unity-and-the-iphone-os-4-0/ The strange thing is: Apple supports HTML5. But with HTML5 one would be able to write (and publish and sell) all kinds of Flash-like games directly on the internet, without Apple having any kind of control over what content gets on the iPhone... So I really don't get it... On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 3:23 AM, John Meacham j...@repetae.net wrote: On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 08:41:02PM -0400, Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote: If this ever gets to court, we may have a criterion imposed on us, possibly one as silly as the distinction between programs and algorithms said to be made in patent-land. I really do agree with your post, but what I dont get is why Apple does not intent anything against George Hotz, who publicly acknowledged having disassembled his iphone for performing FPGA black magic on it, and would sue someone for refusing objects and mallocs in programming. This makes me wonder if they really have the legal means of doing anything. Sure, they have the legal means to simply deny your program access to the App store. They don't need to sue you, you did nothing wrong by writing a haskell-c compiler and writing a game in it. They just won't distribute it. They are already under no obligation to distribute your work or make it available. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
b...@telenet.be writes: Or maybe this would be a nice research topic: how to generate C code that looks like it’s human written… Nah, that's too easy: just add a sprinkling of buffer overflows, undefined behavior, and off-by one index errors. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
There is a enormous bunch of C code out there on the internet. It is not that hard to simply take arbitrary commentaries and variable names from it, then using it to replace GHC's jjaksh34$-like variables in the core. Doing objective-c is a bit harder, as you have to use the objects, or else the choice of objective-c instead of c would look suspicious. This requires to find the rules that make an object programmer happy. El 27/05/2010, a las 02:40, Ketil Malde escribió: b...@telenet.be writes: Or maybe this would be a nice research topic: how to generate C code that looks like it’s human written… Nah, that's too easy: just add a sprinkling of buffer overflows, undefined behavior, and off-by one index errors. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
I think some of us may be missing the point about language identification. It's not a _technical_ question, it's a _legal_ one. Apple's lawyers have available to them exactly the kind of instrument they expect (as lawyers) to have: legal testimony. If you sign up to the new rules, you are entering into a contract, and whether Apple _engineers_ can tell what you originally wrong in or not, if Apple's _lawyers_ are called in, you will find yourself answering: Q: Well, Mr/Ms/Dr/ Developer, did you personally write any of the code in this program? A: Yes. Q: And did you write it directly in one of the programming languages allowed in the contract, or did you use some other programming language? A: The code that was checked into the repository was in C and had never been in any other known programming language, but it was actually generated from a table of player descriptions using a little AWK script. Q: So what you are saying is that you knowingly violated the terms of the contract? Given the code generation and refactoring capabilities of things like NetBeans and Eclipse, notions of written and originally are getting even fuzzier than they always were, which is saying something. If this ever gets to court, we may have a criterion imposed on us, possibly one as silly as the distinction between programs and algorithms said to be made in patent-land. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
If this ever gets to court, we may have a criterion imposed on us, possibly one as silly as the distinction between programs and algorithms said to be made in patent-land. I really do agree with your post, but what I dont get is why Apple does not intent anything against George Hotz, who publicly acknowledged having disassembled his iphone for performing FPGA black magic on it, and would sue someone for refusing objects and mallocs in programming. This makes me wonder if they really have the legal means of doing anything. Cheers, PE___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 08:41:02PM -0400, Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote: If this ever gets to court, we may have a criterion imposed on us, possibly one as silly as the distinction between programs and algorithms said to be made in patent-land. I really do agree with your post, but what I dont get is why Apple does not intent anything against George Hotz, who publicly acknowledged having disassembled his iphone for performing FPGA black magic on it, and would sue someone for refusing objects and mallocs in programming. This makes me wonder if they really have the legal means of doing anything. Sure, they have the legal means to simply deny your program access to the App store. They don't need to sue you, you did nothing wrong by writing a haskell-c compiler and writing a game in it. They just won't distribute it. They are already under no obligation to distribute your work or make it available. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On May 26, 2010, at 03:50 , David Virebayre wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Lyndon Maydwell maydw...@gmail.com wrote: As a side note, how is this project getting around the language restrictions apple put in the developer license agreement? From the project page : This version uses Apple's official iPhone SDK as its back end compiler. You might want to reread that license agreement. Specifically: Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited) -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: You might want to reread that license agreement. Specifically: Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited) Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive. Can they tell the difference though ? David. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
Of course, given that they have no way of determining that short of asking for the source code (and hiring another thousand reviewers to read it) or applying static analysis tools with heuristics to the programs. I really doubt they do the latter, and the former is unrealistic. Most people seem to think the clause is there mostly to discourage large companies like Adobe from making generic tools to translate to the iPhone/iPad. It would be a lot of effort for Apple to actually enforce it strictly. On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: On May 26, 2010, at 03:50 , David Virebayre wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Lyndon Maydwell maydw...@gmail.com wrote: As a side note, how is this project getting around the language restrictions apple put in the developer license agreement? From the project page : This version uses Apple's official iPhone SDK as its back end compiler. You might want to reread that license agreement. Specifically: Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited) -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On May 26, 2010, at 04:14 , David Virebayre wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: You might want to reread that license agreement. Specifically: Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive. Can they tell the difference though ? I suspect GHC-generated code is fairly distinctive even as machine code. But they don't have to go to that extent; all they have to do is use Google to find this thread. :( -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
Hi guys, I don't think this licensing issue will be a problem for us. It's not clear to me that our game violates this new term, and we certainly don't violate any of the principles Steve Jobs used to justify it. If Apple wants to reject our app, they already have a variety of excuses at their disposal, as they've demonstrated on many occasions. Frankly, it'd be their loss; Android is now the fastest-growing smartphone market, and we'll be more than happy to focus on it (and other friendlier markets) if Apple's not interested in having our product on their platform. Ryan Trinkle iPwn Studios On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: On May 26, 2010, at 04:14 , David Virebayre wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: You might want to reread that license agreement. Specifically: Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive. Can they tell the difference though ? I suspect GHC-generated code is fairly distinctive even as machine code. But they don't have to go to that extent; all they have to do is use Google to find this thread. :( -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
Anyway, does the license imply that one can't compile GHC's core language and RTS into objective-c, then compile it with their so great software ? El 26/05/2010, a las 05:51, Ryan Trinkle escribió: Hi guys, I don't think this licensing issue will be a problem for us. It's not clear to me that our game violates this new term, and we certainly don't violate any of the principles Steve Jobs used to justify it. If Apple wants to reject our app, they already have a variety of excuses at their disposal, as they've demonstrated on many occasions. Frankly, it'd be their loss; Android is now the fastest-growing smartphone market, and we'll be more than happy to focus on it (and other friendlier markets) if Apple's not interested in having our product on their platform. Ryan Trinkle iPwn Studios On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: On May 26, 2010, at 04:14 , David Virebayre wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: You might want to reread that license agreement. Specifically: Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive. Can they tell the difference though ? I suspect GHC-generated code is fairly distinctive even as machine code. But they don't have to go to that extent; all they have to do is use Google to find this thread. :( -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
If you guys get a nice library layer going between the Java APIs and Android NDK Haskell, I would very much like it if you could post it up somewhere. I think the entire community could benefit. Cheers. ~Liam On 26 May 2010 19:51, Ryan Trinkle ryan.trin...@ipwnstudios.com wrote: Hi guys, I don't think this licensing issue will be a problem for us. It's not clear to me that our game violates this new term, and we certainly don't violate any of the principles Steve Jobs used to justify it. If Apple wants to reject our app, they already have a variety of excuses at their disposal, as they've demonstrated on many occasions. Frankly, it'd be their loss; Android is now the fastest-growing smartphone market, and we'll be more than happy to focus on it (and other friendlier markets) if Apple's not interested in having our product on their platform. Ryan Trinkle iPwn Studios On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: On May 26, 2010, at 04:14 , David Virebayre wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: You might want to reread that license agreement. Specifically: Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive. Can they tell the difference though ? I suspect GHC-generated code is fairly distinctive even as machine code. But they don't have to go to that extent; all they have to do is use Google to find this thread. :( -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:51 AM, Ryan Trinkle ryan.trin...@ipwnstudios.comwrote: Hi guys, I don't think this licensing issue will be a problem for us. It's not clear to me that our game violates this new term, and we certainly don't violate any of the principles Steve Jobs used to justify it. If Apple wants to reject our app, they already have a variety of excuses at their disposal, as they've demonstrated on many occasions. Frankly, it'd be their loss; Android is now the fastest-growing smartphone market, and we'll be more than happy to focus on it (and other friendlier markets) if Apple's not interested in having our product on their platform. Steve Jobs has been quite clear that apps written in other languages, even ones that are interpreted in, compiles down to or otherwise generate objective c source code, don't comply with the changes in section 3.3.1 of their license, so I'm not sure that you have much of a case. “We’ve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.” Read more: http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/10/steve-jobs-responds-to-iphone-sdk-complaints-intermediate-layers-produce-sub-standard-apps/#ixzz0p3gfoNZI Haskell definitely qualifies as an 'intermediate layer', just like MonoTouch, and just like the Flash-to-Objective-C compiler that provoked the original response from Apple. http://www.taoeffect.com/blog/2010/04/steve-jobs-response-a-brief-followup/ Heck, even libraries that may contain scripting and modeling utilities like Unity3d are in jeopardy, due to this cockamamie restriction, which threatens to send the art of level design and game programming for the iphone technologically clear back into the early 90s, though at least there they appear to be treading lightly, since Unity has been useful in providing the iphone with a lot of high end content. http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/7408/is-unity3d-banned-by-new-apple-sdk-licence But, there are other numerous discussions floating around in the blogosphere involving previously approved applications written in scheme (even compiled via objective c), c#, or other middleware languages having their applications removed from the app store. So, sadly, I think your chances of shipping your a title written in Haskell on the iPhone are shot to hell. -Edward Kmett ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On May 26, 2010, at 10:17 , Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote: Anyway, does the license imply that one can't compile GHC's core language and RTS into objective-c, then compile it with their so great software ? As I read it, yes; it says that the calls to their APIs must *originate* from permitted languages, and specifically prohibits using those languages via translation layers. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
So, sadly, I think your chances of shipping your a title written in Haskell on the iPhone are shot to hell. +1 for the android version. Disclaimer: biased google employee :P Unfortunately then you get another cockamamie restriction in the whole JVM vs. tail calls thing... but if you can get around that then lots of people will like you a lot. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
Well in this case I'd be really interested in seeing how the can tell the difference, be it only from a simple complexity theoretic point of view ! I understand they may look for common patterns in their compiler code to tell the difference between GHC's generated code and theirs, but pretending they can do it in this case only shows that Apple lawyers never communicate with the engineers. El 26/05/2010, a las 15:32, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH escribió: On May 26, 2010, at 10:17 , Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote: Anyway, does the license imply that one can't compile GHC's core language and RTS into objective-c, then compile it with their so great software ? As I read it, yes; it says that the calls to their APIs must *originate* from permitted languages, and specifically prohibits using those languages via translation layers. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
wouldn't they just want to have TCO happen during the compilation into java? why would you want to output java that has recursion? -Dan On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Evan Laforge qdun...@gmail.com wrote: So, sadly, I think your chances of shipping your a title written in Haskell on the iPhone are shot to hell. +1 for the android version. Disclaimer: biased google employee :P Unfortunately then you get another cockamamie restriction in the whole JVM vs. tail calls thing... but if you can get around that then lots of people will like you a lot. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On May 26, 2010, at 17:22 , Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote: Well in this case I'd be really interested in seeing how the can tell the difference, be it only from a simple complexity theoretic point of view ! I understand they may look for common patterns in their compiler code to tell the difference between GHC's generated code and theirs, but pretending they can do it in this case only shows that Apple lawyers never communicate with the engineers. No clue how they might be planning to enforce it, but it's not like the lawyers care; it's up to Apple to decide if they want to pursue any individual possible case of infringement, and Jobs to figure out what kind of hole he's dug himself into. :) -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 01:17:00PM -0700, Evan Laforge wrote: Unfortunately then you get another cockamamie restriction in the whole JVM vs. tail calls thing... but if you can get around that then lots of people will like you a lot. Working on it... :) John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Pierre-Etienne Meunier pierreetienne.meun...@gmail.com wrote: Well in this case I'd be really interested in seeing how the can tell the difference, be it only from a simple complexity theoretic point of view ! I understand they may look for common patterns in their compiler code to tell the difference between GHC's generated code and theirs, but pretending they can do it in this case only shows that Apple lawyers never communicate with the engineers. I think it is more a matter of Jobs trying to find any way he could to quickly block Adobe's attempted end-run around his blockade against Flash apps. While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code, all they need is to raise the spectre of doubt, and they have practically gutted all concern of a cross platform development environment emerging, because no sound business plan can be built on I hope my major and only possible distributor doesn't figure out what I'm doing! -Edward Kmett ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On 27/05/2010, at 9:01 AM, Edward Kmett wrote: While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code... Uh, desire:tmp benl$ cat Hello.hs main = putStr Hello desire:tmp benl$ ghc --make Hello.hs desire:tmp benl$ strings Hello | head Hello base:GHC.Arr.STArray base:GHC.Arr.STArray base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq failed to read siginfo_t failed: Warning: select buildFdSets: file descriptor out of range ... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
Next up, binary obfuscation! Apple already uses these extensively in their Fairplay code. Surely it isn't against the rules (yet?) to apply them to your program before submitting it to the store? :P On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Ben Lippmeier b...@ouroborus.net wrote: On 27/05/2010, at 9:01 AM, Edward Kmett wrote: While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code... Uh, desire:tmp benl$ cat Hello.hs main = putStr Hello desire:tmp benl$ ghc --make Hello.hs desire:tmp benl$ strings Hello | head Hello base:GHC.Arr.STArray base:GHC.Arr.STArray base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq failed to read siginfo_t failed: Warning: select buildFdSets: file descriptor out of range ... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
Objects in the heap also have a very regular structure. They all have code pointers as their first word, which point to info tables that also have a regular structure [1]. GHC produced code is probably one of the easiest to identify out of all compiled languages... http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Rts/Storage/HeapObjects Ben. On 27/05/2010, at 1:15 PM, Daniel Peebles wrote: Next up, binary obfuscation! Apple already uses these extensively in their Fairplay code. Surely it isn't against the rules (yet?) to apply them to your program before submitting it to the store? :P On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Ben Lippmeier b...@ouroborus.net wrote: On 27/05/2010, at 9:01 AM, Edward Kmett wrote: While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code... Uh, desire:tmp benl$ cat Hello.hs main = putStr Hello desire:tmp benl$ ghc --make Hello.hs desire:tmp benl$ strings Hello | head Hello base:GHC.Arr.STArray base:GHC.Arr.STArray base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq failed to read siginfo_t failed: Warning: select buildFdSets: file descriptor out of range ... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Ben Lippmeier b...@ouroborus.net wrote: While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code... Uh, ∀p (PieceOfCode(p) - CanIdentifySourceLanguage(p)) is clearly false, while ∃p (PieceOfCode(p) - CanIdentifySourceLanguage(p)) is clearly true. Natural language does a rather poor job of making quantification unambiguous. - C. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On May 26, 2010, at 23:23 , C. McCann wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Ben Lippmeier b...@ouroborus.net wrote: While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code... Uh, ∀p (PieceOfCode(p) - CanIdentifySourceLanguage(p)) is clearly false, while ∃p (PieceOfCode(p) - CanIdentifySourceLanguage(p)) is clearly true. Natural language does a rather poor job of making quantification unambiguous. If you really want to get jiggy with the corner cases, ask what counts as a transformation. /bin/cat? sed 's/a/b/g'? sed 'y/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba/'? unlit? cpp? -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Work on Video Games in Haskell
On May 27, 2010, at 00:20 , Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: On May 26, 2010, at 23:23 , C. McCann wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Ben Lippmeier b...@ouroborus.net wrote: While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code... Uh, ∀p (PieceOfCode(p) - CanIdentifySourceLanguage(p)) is clearly false, while ∃p (PieceOfCode(p) - CanIdentifySourceLanguage(p)) is clearly true. Natural language does a rather poor job of making quantification unambiguous. If you really want to get jiggy with the corner cases, ask what counts as a transformation. And the best, if obsolescent, example of all: cfront. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
