Re: [Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Andrzej Jaworski hims...@poczta.nom.plwrote: I just want to say Hello to let you know that there are some serious entities watching you besides monads and FBI:-) There has been a hell of a discussion recently about logos, languages and religion and I want to add to this. First let me disassociate Haskell from Taoism which to may taste has left us in an unhealthy climate. It suffices to say that Taoism is a school of clever trics and cute aphorisms but without the slightest attempt to explain or generalize let alone produce an abstract idea or a system. That is why its wisdom is non transferable in spite of majority of humans desending from it. Haskell on the contrary is a minority school that implements abstract ideas for problem solving in the most transferable way to date, so that other languages look into it for their share. But don't worry, thay will choke becouse it is them who practice Taoizm. Playing too many tricks will eventually trick them, even if some are powerful enough to brainwash dicent professors to preach interoperability or the like. Every viable complexity needs a single underlying concept to survive, including you and the universe. Microsoft and the like excluding;-) Haskell has all that: consistency, transparency and self-contained concept. I associate Haskell with Zen, due to one of my favorite dialogues: If it's purely functional, how do you *do* anything? You don't ;-) (Courtesy of Conal Elliott) Haskell and Zen both happen to be my favorites in their respective fields (and exactly which field that is for both is somewhat fuzzy) Luke ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
Hi Luke, When neurosurgeons split the brain into left and right hemisphere cutting it along corpus callosum the patient will talk to you with his left half and right half independently - each time unaware what his other half was talking about a moment earlier. I believe Zen emulates such split on a microscopic scale. We all go thru similar state when we conceive an original idea - if we do not write this down or formulate it immediately the discovery will loose its punch and sense of depth. The best documented and most prominent example is Hegel's discovery of dialectical logic - after extensive writing about that at some point he honestly admits loosing the original concept. But if not for his western oververbosity we might not today use the term 'naive' set theory. Every serious mathematician touching foundations is today perfectly aware of the price we pay for formulating things. But I am unaware of any virtue of trying to clap with one hand;-) Regards, -Andrzej ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
Arnaud Bailly kindly exposed my mistake: I cited Leibniz Monadology attributing it to Spinoza. Call me idiot but it wasn't thoughtless mistake, I really mixed up Spinoza's concept of 'modes' with Leibniz's concept of 'monad'. But it is because of my laziness rather than foolishness (at least this time). My argument is that in his final writings Leibniz's 'monads' encompass reality as perceptions and emanate from God as thought emanates from the mind, which is exactly what Spinoza's 'modes' are about. So monads and modes being equal I prefer Spinoza as a patron for Haskell for his purity of cause-effect treatment. Arnold adds another Haskell-Spinoza nicety, I hope he won't mind my including his all letter. Thank you Arnold, it is encouraging to find guys like you. Philosophy is not my thing but I believe every man should tackle it as exercise. Hello Andrzej, Thanks a lot for your bit of rationalism among all these devotions :-) I think however that you are confusing Spinoza with Leibniz in the following assertion. Monads are a concept invented by the latter, together with the famous the best possible world ever mocked by Voltaire in Candide. The comparison between Haskell and spinozism is rather interesting though, especially when one considers that Spinoza's Ethic is based on the idea that the ultimate goal of one self is to increase its power to live, an affect which it calls Joy. Thinking of Haskell as a way to increase one's joy and one's power is a nice thought. Regards, Arnaud Bailly ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
2008/12/22 Luke Palmer lrpal...@gmail.com: Andrzej Jaworski hims...@poczta.nom.pl First let me disassociate Haskell from Taoism... I associate Haskell with Zen... The relationship between Taoism and Zen is actually very close. The notion of stillness practice is essentially Chinese. Indian schools of meditation and schools of Buddhism not originating in China, tend to emphasize an /object/ of meditation -- a God, a candle, what-have-you. The practice of sitting still, doing nothing finds its way into Buddhism when Chan Buddhism is formed in China. It is an adaption of a Taoist practice with a long history -- and in fact, Chan was seen as a Taoist renewal. It is Chan that makes its way to Japan to become the Zen we all know. -- Jason Dusek ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
Andrzej Jaworski hims...@poczta.nom.pl wrote: First let me disassociate Haskell from Taoism which to may taste has left us in an unhealthy climate. It suffices to say that Taoism is a school of clever trics and cute aphorisms but without the slightest attempt to explain or generalize let alone produce an abstract idea or a system. That is why its wisdom is non transferable in spite of majority of humans desending from it. Taoist religion in China is very much a popular religion, closely associated with festivals, weddings and magic tricks. As a popular religion, Taoism is indeed deeply compromised; but then again, so is Zen in Japan, Christianity in Europe and indeed, most popular religions in the place where they became popular. As a philosophy, Taoism is more concerned with doubt than knowledge; with humility than pride of understanding; of course it makes litte attempt to explain or generalize. An essential notion in Taoism is that signs and symbols do not communicate the truth -- to appreciate Taoist practice, you must engage in the practice of Taoism for a spell. Thus it is in practical arts -- Chinese medicine, Taiji, strategy -- that one comes to appreciate the Way and its Power. -- Jason Dusek ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
On Mon, 2008-12-22 at 17:14 -0800, Jason Dusek wrote: Andrzej Jaworski hims...@poczta.nom.pl wrote: First let me disassociate Haskell from Taoism which to may taste has left us in an unhealthy climate. It suffices to say that Taoism is a school of clever trics and cute aphorisms but without the slightest attempt to explain or generalize let alone produce an abstract idea or a system. That is why its wisdom is non transferable in spite of majority of humans desending from it. ... Thus it is in practical arts -- Chinese medicine, Taiji, strategy -- that one comes to appreciate the Way and its Power. But nonetheless, Haskell is not a practical art, no more than theoretical physics or abstract algebra. jcc ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
Jonathan Cast jonathancc...@fastmail.fm wrote: Jason Dusek wrote: Thus it is in practical arts -- Chinese medicine, Taiji, strategy -- that one comes to appreciate the Way and its Power. But nonetheless, Haskell is not a practical art, no more than theoretical physics or abstract algebra. I guess the question is whether we are treating Haskell as a means to appreciate Taoism or as Taoism itself. -- Jason Dusek ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] A hell of a question
I just want to say Hello to let you know that there are some serious entities watching you besides monads and FBI:-) There has been a hell of a discussion recently about logos, languages and religion and I want to add to this. First let me disassociate Haskell from Taoism which to may taste has left us in an unhealthy climate. It suffices to say that Taoism is a school of clever trics and cute aphorisms but without the slightest attempt to explain or generalize let alone produce an abstract idea or a system. That is why its wisdom is non transferable in spite of majority of humans desending from it. Haskell on the contrary is a minority school that implements abstract ideas for problem solving in the most transferable way to date, so that other languages look into it for their share. But don't worry, thay will choke becouse it is them who practice Taoizm. Playing too many tricks will eventually trick them, even if some are powerful enough to brainwash dicent professors to preach interoperability or the like. Every viable complexity needs a single underlying concept to survive, including you and the universe. Microsoft and the like excluding;-) Haskell has all that: consistency, transparency and self-contained concept. However Haskell is also somehow asynchronic with the Bible as it is condemned to perpetual purity only to be saved from it via monads, which according to Spinoza are arranged by God in a perfect order which ascends to God, the supreme monad!!!. Thus we can look at Haskell's purity as a kind of harmless attempt to play God by means of incapsulating the world only to ignor it. This could somehow put it in the same boat with the devil. They both prefer your brain to Turing machin:-) I would leave with the eternal question what the hell Haskell is? and with my Santa Close emphasising Haskell's purity and my simplicity. Here: http://haskell.org/sitewiki/images/7/79/WCF.Andrzej.Jaworski.gif Have fun, -Andrzej Jaworski ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
