Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-10 Thread Andrew Coppin

On 10/06/2011 01:44 AM, Jason Dagit wrote:

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Andrew Coppin
andrewcop...@btinternet.com  wrote:


Too bad GHC doesn't support inline assembly yet... (Or does it? I know it
supports inline Core now.)


Really?  I found this in the manual so I think either the docs need to
be updated or you are mistaken:


Apparently I am mistaken. It allows inline C-- (as of 6.12.1):

http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.1/html/users_guide/ffi.html#ffi-prim

Of course, C-- is not nearly the same as Core. Sorry about that...

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-10 Thread austin seipp
It's worth mentioning 'foreign prim' is still a bit different from
inline code - while you can certainly write Cmm and have GHC link it
into your program, it is not really inline. GHC has two different
kinds of primitive operations: inline primops, and out of line
primops. foreign primops are currently always out of line. Inline
primops require actual GHC hacking, as they are short code sequences
emitted directly by the code generator, that don't block or require
allocation. As far as I know, GHC will naturally still generate a call
to these out of line primops when you use them - in the form of a
'jmp' instruction, which is all that exists in Cmm (if someone out
there knows more, like Johan perhaps who recently did memcpy inline
primops, please correct me.) GHC will not necessarily have to spill
STG registers (as it would in the case of a true foreign call,) but
the instructions certainly won't be inline.

Truthfully the use case for foreign prim is frighteningly small I
think. It's been around for a while, but currently it's only client is
integer-gmp, which was part of the motivation for the implementation
anyway (to split GMP away from the GHC RTS, so it would be possibly to
build full BSD3 haskell executables for commercial purposes, etc.)
Outside of perhaps, an integer-openssl binding that instead used
OpenSSL bignums, I can't think of many use cases personally. And a
true 64bit GHC port to windows is of course, going to help the
situation much more than any amount of hacking around the issue with
32bits and 8 registers will, while trying to retain some sense of
efficiency.

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Andrew Coppin
andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote:
 On 10/06/2011 01:44 AM, Jason Dagit wrote:

 On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Andrew Coppin
 andrewcop...@btinternet.com  wrote:

 Too bad GHC doesn't support inline assembly yet... (Or does it? I know it
 supports inline Core now.)

 Really?  I found this in the manual so I think either the docs need to
 be updated or you are mistaken:

 Apparently I am mistaken. It allows inline C-- (as of 6.12.1):

 http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.1/html/users_guide/ffi.html#ffi-prim

 Of course, C-- is not nearly the same as Core. Sorry about that...

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-- 
Regards,
Austin

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread Rafael Gustavo da Cunha Pereira Pinto
It is 32 bits, I'm sure.

Besides the 32-bit stack manipulation, it uses eax and ecx to hold two
32-bit parts of the 64-bit number.

Best regards,

Rafael


On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 02:54, Scott Lawrence byt...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 06/09/2011 01:47 AM, Jason Dagit wrote:
  Have you checked this by looking at the generated assembly?  I
  generated some assembly from GHC on windows.  Here is what it looks
  ilke:
  http://hpaste.org/47610
 
  My assembly-fu is not strong enough to tell if it's using 64bit
 instructions.
 
 It would appear to be 32-bit. (pushl instead of pushq  no instances of
 aligning to 8-byte boundaries)


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-- 
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread Rafael Gustavo da Cunha Pereira Pinto
This really sucks.  Not even LLVM is ported to 64-bit Windows.

This is mainly because Windows uses 32-bit pointers for compatibility.
http://archive.gamedev.net/reference/programming/features/20issues64bit/

Atc

Rafael


On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 08:04, Rafael Gustavo da Cunha Pereira Pinto 
rafaelgcpp.li...@gmail.com wrote:

 It is 32 bits, I'm sure.

 Besides the 32-bit stack manipulation, it uses eax and ecx to hold two
 32-bit parts of the 64-bit number.

 Best regards,

 Rafael


 On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 02:54, Scott Lawrence byt...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 06/09/2011 01:47 AM, Jason Dagit wrote:
  Have you checked this by looking at the generated assembly?  I
  generated some assembly from GHC on windows.  Here is what it looks
  ilke:
  http://hpaste.org/47610
 
  My assembly-fu is not strong enough to tell if it's using 64bit
 instructions.
 
 It would appear to be 32-bit. (pushl instead of pushq  no instances of
 aligning to 8-byte boundaries)


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 --
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-- 
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread Andrew Coppin

On 09/06/2011 06:54 AM, Scott Lawrence wrote:

On 06/09/2011 01:47 AM, Jason Dagit wrote:

Have you checked this by looking at the generated assembly?  I
generated some assembly from GHC on windows.  Here is what it looks
ilke:
http://hpaste.org/47610

My assembly-fu is not strong enough to tell if it's using 64bit instructions.


It would appear to be 32-bit. (pushl instead of pushq  no instances of
aligning to 8-byte boundaries)


The general register naming scheme on x86 is:

  AL, AH: 8 bits
  AX: 16 bits
  EAX: 32 bits
  RAX: 64 bits

There's a lot of code there, but from what I can see, it's all operating 
on 32-bit registers. So I'd say this is 32-bit code.


On the other hand, I still think it would be worth actually benchmarking 
this stuff to see how much difference it makes. Wouldn't surprise me if 
the CPU designers did some clever trickery with pipelining and 
superscalar execution to make two adjacent 32-bit instructions execute 
the same way as a single 64-bit instruction would...


(I've seen various sources claim that running software in 64-bit mode 
only gives you a 2% speedup. Then again, they presumably aren't testing 
with chess software which heavily utilises explicit 64-bit operations.)


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread Nicu Ionita

Am 09.06.2011 19:44, schrieb Andrew Coppin:

On 09/06/2011 06:54 AM, Scott Lawrence wrote:

On 06/09/2011 01:47 AM, Jason Dagit wrote:

Have you checked this by looking at the generated assembly?  I
generated some assembly from GHC on windows.  Here is what it looks
ilke:
http://hpaste.org/47610

My assembly-fu is not strong enough to tell if it's using 64bit 
instructions.



It would appear to be 32-bit. (pushl instead of pushq  no instances of
aligning to 8-byte boundaries)


The general register naming scheme on x86 is:

  AL, AH: 8 bits
  AX: 16 bits
  EAX: 32 bits
  RAX: 64 bits

There's a lot of code there, but from what I can see, it's all 
operating on 32-bit registers. So I'd say this is 32-bit code.


On the other hand, I still think it would be worth actually 
benchmarking this stuff to see how much difference it makes. Wouldn't 
surprise me if the CPU designers did some clever trickery with 
pipelining and superscalar execution to make two adjacent 32-bit 
instructions execute the same way as a single 64-bit instruction would...


(I've seen various sources claim that running software in 64-bit mode 
only gives you a 2% speedup. Then again, they presumably aren't 
testing with chess software which heavily utilises explicit 64-bit 
operations.)


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For a chess engine this is for sure not true. I guess that this is one 
of very few domains where it really matters! The most (basic) operations 
with bitboards are anding, oring, xoring, shifting and (for magic 
bitboards) multiplying 64 bits values. When using 32 bits you need for 
some of these more then double time to achieve the same.


I was wondering if there is a possibility to support 64 bit native codes 
without other stuff (calling conventions, win64 specific system calls 
etc). This could be perhaps a first step to full 64 bit support. But 
from the code of ghc I could not understand what this would mean.


Nicu

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread Andrew Coppin

On the other hand, I still think it would be worth actually
benchmarking this stuff to see how much difference it makes. Wouldn't
surprise me if the CPU designers did some clever trickery with
pipelining and superscalar execution to make two adjacent 32-bit
instructions execute the same way as a single 64-bit instruction would...

(I've seen various sources claim that running software in 64-bit mode
only gives you a 2% speedup. Then again, they presumably aren't
testing with chess software which heavily utilises explicit 64-bit
operations.)



For a chess engine this is for sure not true. I guess that this is one
of very few domains where it really matters! The most (basic) operations
with bitboards are anding, oring, xoring, shifting and (for magic
bitboards) multiplying 64 bits values. When using 32 bits you need for
some of these more then double time to achieve the same.


I'm still left wondering if using 32-bit instructions to manipulate 
64-bit values is actually that much slower. Back in the old days of 
non-pipelined, uniscalar CPUs, it would certainly have been the case. 
Today's processors are far more complex than that. Things like cache 
misses tend to have a way, way bigger performance hit than anything 
arithmetic-related.



I was wondering if there is a possibility to support 64 bit native codes
without other stuff (calling conventions, win64 specific system calls
etc). This could be perhaps a first step to full 64 bit support. But
from the code of ghc I could not understand what this would mean.


I'm wondering if you could write the operations you want is small C stub 
functions, and FFI to them and do it that way. I don't really know 
enough about this sort of thing to know whether that'll work...


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread austin seipp
On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Andrew Coppin
andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote:
 I'm still left wondering if using 32-bit instructions to manipulate 64-bit
 values is actually that much slower. Back in the old days of non-pipelined,
 uniscalar CPUs, it would certainly have been the case. Today's processors
 are far more complex than that. Things like cache misses tend to have a way,
 way bigger performance hit than anything arithmetic-related.


The problem is you're probably going to need to spill things
(somewhere) in order to operate on the upper 32bits of any given
register in the non trivial case. x86 already is pathetic in its 8 GP
registers. amd64 brings it up to 16. GHC already has to put a
significant amount of stuff on the stack on x86 because of that, IIRC
(I think only 3 STG registers are actually pinned, and the remaining 5
are for use by the register allocator.)

 I'm wondering if you could write the operations you want is small C stub
 functions, and FFI to them and do it that way. I don't really know enough
 about this sort of thing to know whether that'll work...

It's highly unlikely that the cost of a foreign call (even an unsafe
one) in terms of just CPU cycles will be cheaper than executing a few
primitive arithmetic ops on the CPU. GHC will at least need to spill
to the stack before and reload after every call. If the arithmetic ops
were to somehow pipeline, that would be even worse in your favor,
because the cycle count for your core operation would go *down* as a
result of the pipelining, making the foreign call that much more
expensive.

Furthermore, GHC will invoke the C compiler on a FFI'd .c file to
produce an object file. It's unlikely the linker will be able to
inline copies of the function at call sites at link time, so if you
use C, the function will likely exist as object-code far away from the
call sites, and that will probably hurt your L1i cache locality a bit.

-- 
Regards,
Austin

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread Andrew Coppin

On 09/06/2011 08:44 PM, austin seipp wrote:

On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Andrew Coppin
andrewcop...@btinternet.com  wrote:

I'm still left wondering if using 32-bit instructions to manipulate 64-bit
values is actually that much slower.


The problem is you're probably going to need to spill things
(somewhere) in order to operate on the upper 32bits of any given
register in the non trivial case. x86 already is pathetic in its 8 GP
registers. amd64 brings it up to 16.


Well, that's true enough.

Given that AMD64 adds more registers, I'm surprised that this apparently 
makes such a small difference to wall-clock run-times. (But perhaps it 
makes a bigger difference for GHC. I don't know.)



I'm wondering if you could write the operations you want is small C stub
functions, and FFI to them and do it that way. I don't really know enough
about this sort of thing to know whether that'll work...


It's highly unlikely that the cost of a foreign call (even an unsafe
one) in terms of just CPU cycles will be cheaper than executing a few
primitive arithmetic ops on the CPU.


Yeah, you're probably right there actually.

Too bad GHC doesn't support inline assembly yet... (Or does it? I know 
it supports inline Core now.)


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread Antoine Latter
On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 4:06 PM, Andrew Coppin
andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote:

 Too bad GHC doesn't support inline assembly yet... (Or does it? I know it
 supports inline Core now.)

Is this new in 7.2?

Antoine

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-09 Thread Jason Dagit
On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Andrew Coppin
andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote:

 Too bad GHC doesn't support inline assembly yet... (Or does it? I know it
 supports inline Core now.)

Really?  I found this in the manual so I think either the docs need to
be updated or you are mistaken:
http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/ext-core.html

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-08 Thread Jason Dagit
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Nicu Ionita nicu.ion...@acons.at wrote:

 Yes, I was a little bit unclear, I wanted to say: the generated code does
 not use the 64 bit instructions (i.e. 1 instruction for .., for example).
 Of course, it works, but I suppose, much slower then it could (3-4 times,
 for that part?)

Have you checked this by looking at the generated assembly?  I
generated some assembly from GHC on windows.  Here is what it looks
ilke:
http://hpaste.org/47610

My assembly-fu is not strong enough to tell if it's using 64bit instructions.

Jason

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-08 Thread Scott Lawrence
On 06/09/2011 01:47 AM, Jason Dagit wrote:
 Have you checked this by looking at the generated assembly?  I
 generated some assembly from GHC on windows.  Here is what it looks
 ilke:
 http://hpaste.org/47610
 
 My assembly-fu is not strong enough to tell if it's using 64bit instructions.
 
It would appear to be 32-bit. (pushl instead of pushq  no instances of
aligning to 8-byte boundaries)



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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-07 Thread Andrew Coppin

On 06/06/2011 09:34 PM, Nicu Ionita wrote:


Hi,

Just to double check: that means, today it's not possible to generate 64
bit operations under Windows, including bit level .., .|. a.s.o. (from
Data.Bits), and this situation will stay like this for a while.

I'm asking this because I'm currently writing a pure Haskell chess
engine based on bitboards. The bitboards are 64 bit wide and the basic
operations are critical for speed, which is always critical in chess
engines.

Then it looks I'll have to implement these operations in C and use FFI
to link them.


No, 64-bit integer operations will /work/ just fine, regardless of what 
platform you're on. Whether it will take advantage of 64-bit operations 
at the machine-code level is another matter entirely.


I'm not especially sure, but I think even in 32-bit mode, the x86 line 
of processors supports performing 64-bit operations via MMX, SSE or 
similar. Whether GHC is using that, I couldn't tell you.


I suppose the ultimate answer is: Benchmark it, and see how fast it is.

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-07 Thread Nicu Ionita

Am 07.06.2011 19:37, schrieb Andrew Coppin:

On 06/06/2011 09:34 PM, Nicu Ionita wrote:


Hi,

Just to double check: that means, today it's not possible to generate 64
bit operations under Windows, including bit level .., .|. a.s.o. (from
Data.Bits), and this situation will stay like this for a while.

I'm asking this because I'm currently writing a pure Haskell chess
engine based on bitboards. The bitboards are 64 bit wide and the basic
operations are critical for speed, which is always critical in chess
engines.

Then it looks I'll have to implement these operations in C and use FFI
to link them.


No, 64-bit integer operations will /work/ just fine, regardless of 
what platform you're on. Whether it will take advantage of 64-bit 
operations at the machine-code level is another matter entirely.


I'm not especially sure, but I think even in 32-bit mode, the x86 line 
of processors supports performing 64-bit operations via MMX, SSE or 
similar. Whether GHC is using that, I couldn't tell you.


I suppose the ultimate answer is: Benchmark it, and see how fast it is.

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Yes, I was a little bit unclear, I wanted to say: the generated code 
does not use the 64 bit instructions (i.e. 1 instruction for .., for 
example). Of course, it works, but I suppose, much slower then it could 
(3-4 times, for that part?)


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-06 Thread Nicu Ionita

Am 23.05.2011 13:32, schrieb Simon Marlow:

On 18/05/2011 19:22, Jason Dagit wrote:
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:50 AM, John Sneerjohnsn...@operamail.com  
wrote:

Hello all,

  I know it is not probably good question to this list, but anyway,
  could anyone point me to some more detailed how to where is
  described building of Haskell Platform natively to 64bit Windows?


If you figure out how to do this, I would like to know as well.  I
could also benefit from 64bit Haskell on windows.


There is no port of GHC to 64-bit Windows yet.  Various people have 
expressed an interest in having one, but it is a significant chunk of 
work to implement (plus extra work to maintain and build 
distributions), so we don't have any plans to do it in the short term.


You can track progress (or lack thereof) by adding your email to the 
CC on the ticket:


http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/1884

If you want to help out, join cvs-...@haskell.org and we can help with 
pointers to what needs to be done.


Cheers,
Simon

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Hi,

Just to double check: that means, today it's not possible to generate 64 
bit operations under Windows, including bit level .., .|. a.s.o. (from 
Data.Bits), and this situation will stay like this for a while.


I'm asking this because I'm currently writing a pure Haskell chess 
engine based on bitboards. The bitboards are 64 bit wide and the basic 
operations are critical for speed, which is always critical in chess 
engines.


Then it looks I'll have to implement these operations in C and use FFI 
to link them.


Nicu

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-06-06 Thread Jason Dagit
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Nicu Ionita nicu.ion...@acons.at wrote:
 Am 23.05.2011 13:32, schrieb Simon Marlow:

 On 18/05/2011 19:22, Jason Dagit wrote:

 On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:50 AM, John Sneerjohnsn...@operamail.com
  wrote:

 Hello all,

  I know it is not probably good question to this list, but anyway,
  could anyone point me to some more detailed how to where is
  described building of Haskell Platform natively to 64bit Windows?

 If you figure out how to do this, I would like to know as well.  I
 could also benefit from 64bit Haskell on windows.

 There is no port of GHC to 64-bit Windows yet.  Various people have
 expressed an interest in having one, but it is a significant chunk of work
 to implement (plus extra work to maintain and build distributions), so we
 don't have any plans to do it in the short term.

 You can track progress (or lack thereof) by adding your email to the CC on
 the ticket:

 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/1884

 If you want to help out, join cvs-...@haskell.org and we can help with
 pointers to what needs to be done.

 Cheers,
    Simon

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 Hi,

 Just to double check: that means, today it's not possible to generate 64 bit
 operations under Windows, including bit level .., .|. a.s.o. (from
 Data.Bits), and this situation will stay like this for a while.

Seems to work okay for me on windows:
Prelude Data.Word Data.Bits (1 :: Word64) `shiftL` 62
4611686018427387904

Jason

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-05-23 Thread Simon Marlow

On 18/05/2011 19:22, Jason Dagit wrote:

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:50 AM, John Sneerjohnsn...@operamail.com  wrote:

Hello all,

  I know it is not probably good question to this list, but anyway,
  could anyone point me to some more detailed how to where is
  described building of Haskell Platform natively to 64bit Windows?


If you figure out how to do this, I would like to know as well.  I
could also benefit from 64bit Haskell on windows.


There is no port of GHC to 64-bit Windows yet.  Various people have 
expressed an interest in having one, but it is a significant chunk of 
work to implement (plus extra work to maintain and build distributions), 
so we don't have any plans to do it in the short term.


You can track progress (or lack thereof) by adding your email to the CC 
on the ticket:


http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/1884

If you want to help out, join cvs-...@haskell.org and we can help with 
pointers to what needs to be done.


Cheers,
Simon

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-05-23 Thread Jason Dagit
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 4:32 AM, Simon Marlow marlo...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 18/05/2011 19:22, Jason Dagit wrote:

 On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:50 AM, John Sneerjohnsn...@operamail.com
  wrote:

 Hello all,

  I know it is not probably good question to this list, but anyway,
  could anyone point me to some more detailed how to where is
  described building of Haskell Platform natively to 64bit Windows?

 If you figure out how to do this, I would like to know as well.  I
 could also benefit from 64bit Haskell on windows.

 There is no port of GHC to 64-bit Windows yet.  Various people have
 expressed an interest in having one, but it is a significant chunk of work
 to implement (plus extra work to maintain and build distributions), so we
 don't have any plans to do it in the short term.

 You can track progress (or lack thereof) by adding your email to the CC on
 the ticket:

 http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/1884

Thanks!  I'm trying to add myself to the ticket but I'm having some
issues.  I've had lots of account issues on the ghc trac over the
years.  I've created several usernames but never been able to login
consistently with them so I normally use the guest account.  To add
myself to that ticket I think I need a non-guest account.

Here is what seems to be happening:
  * I try to login with 'dagit' but I don't know the password
  * I try to reset the password but I can't seem to get the right
username/email combo
  * I try to create a new account (the error message in the previous
step is ambiguous enough that I thought maybe the 'dagit' account
doesn't exist), but it says the account exists.
  * I'm asking for assistance in #ghc but no one has helped me yet

On a side note, the captcha for account creation is VERY hard to read
(I got it wrong 3 times in a row, and as far as I know I'm human).


 If you want to help out, join cvs-...@haskell.org and we can help with
 pointers to what needs to be done.

I think I'm on that list already.  I'm very happy to help in anyway
that I can.  Do you already have a build machine for testing a 64bit
build?

Thanks,
Jason

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[Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-05-18 Thread John Sneer
Hello all,

  I know it is not probably good question to this list, but anyway,
  could anyone point me to some more detailed how to where is
  described building of Haskell Platform natively to 64bit Windows?

  I have no problem using 32bit version until I need more than 2GB of
  RAM.

  I went through some older threads, but description like:

  1) install gcc
  2) install ghc
  3) build platform

is something that didn't work well. Is there some more detailed
description or recommended versions etc?  If there is none then there is
no need to respond.

  Thanks, regards

J.


-- 
  John Sneer
  johnsn...@operamail.com

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Building Haskell Platform natively for 64bit Windows

2011-05-18 Thread Jason Dagit
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:50 AM, John Sneer johnsn...@operamail.com wrote:
 Hello all,

  I know it is not probably good question to this list, but anyway,
  could anyone point me to some more detailed how to where is
  described building of Haskell Platform natively to 64bit Windows?

If you figure out how to do this, I would like to know as well.  I
could also benefit from 64bit Haskell on windows.

Thanks,
Jason

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