Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 13:31 schrieben Sie: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 04:36, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 10:03 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; Is rank 1 the best or the worst? The condorcet info page makes it clear that higher is better. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/rp.html So assigning rank 1 to my favorite, as Benjamin suggested, might not be the best idea. :-( I hope, everyone who voted did it the right way. Best wishes, Wolfgang ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Am Donnerstag, 19. März 2009 03:53 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Therefore, rank 1 is the best. This is quite the opposite of what Denis Bueno said. :-( Best wishes, Wolfgang ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Wolfgang == Wolfgang Jeltsch g9ks1...@acme.softbase.org writes: Wolfgang Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 13:31 schrieben Sie: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 04:36, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 10:03 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; Is rank 1 the best or the worst? The condorcet info page makes it clear that higher is better. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/rp.html Wolfgang So assigning rank 1 to my favorite, as Benjamin Wolfgang suggested, might not be the best idea. :-( I hope, Wolfgang everyone who voted did it the right way. I put my favourite choice at rank 1, and ignored all the rest. -- Colin Adams Preston Lancashire ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On 19 mrt 2009, at 11:39, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 13:31 schrieben Sie: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 04:36, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 10:03 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; Is rank 1 the best or the worst? The condorcet info page makes it clear that higher is better. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/rp.html So assigning rank 1 to my favorite, as Benjamin suggested, might not be the best idea. :-( I hope, everyone who voted did it the right way. Rank 1 is the best. A 'higher' rank doesn't mean a 'higher' number. Also see this poll http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/ vote.pl?id=E_5820adef7d6e8733akey=51398305f80ae2cb -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On 19 Mar 2009, at 11:39, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 13:31 schrieben Sie: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 04:36, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 10:03 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; Is rank 1 the best or the worst? The condorcet info page makes it clear that higher is better. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/rp.html I certainly voted the wrong way round then, and the buttons do the wrong thing – pushing move to top (one would assume meaning put this in the top spot) gives something rank 1. Bob___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
37Lenny222 Just noticed that this logo is way too similar to the logo of Techsmith: http://www.techsmith.com/ Regards, CS 2009/3/19 Eelco Lempsink ee...@lempsink.nl On 19 mrt 2009, at 11:39, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 13:31 schrieben Sie: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 04:36, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 10:03 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; Is rank 1 the best or the worst? The condorcet info page makes it clear that higher is better. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/rp.htmlhttp://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/%7Eandru/civs/rp.html So assigning rank 1 to my favorite, as Benjamin suggested, might not be the best idea. :-( I hope, everyone who voted did it the right way. Rank 1 is the best. A 'higher' rank doesn't mean a 'higher' number. Also see this poll http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/%7Eandru/cgi-perl/civs/ vote.pl?id=E_5820adef7d6e8733akey=51398305f80ae2cb -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
IANAL, so would this a problem if this logo won? Deniz 2009/3/19 Cetin Sert cetin.s...@gmail.com: 37Lenny222 Just noticed that this logo is way too similar to the logo of Techsmith: http://www.techsmith.com/ Regards, CS 2009/3/19 Eelco Lempsink ee...@lempsink.nl On 19 mrt 2009, at 11:39, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 13:31 schrieben Sie: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 04:36, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 10:03 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; Is rank 1 the best or the worst? The condorcet info page makes it clear that higher is better. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/rp.html So assigning rank 1 to my favorite, as Benjamin suggested, might not be the best idea. :-( I hope, everyone who voted did it the right way. Rank 1 is the best. A 'higher' rank doesn't mean a 'higher' number. Also see this poll http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/vote.pl?id=E_5820adef7d6e8733akey=51398305f80ae2cb -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On 2009 Mar 19, at 13:12, Deniz Dogan wrote: IANAL, so would this a problem if this logo won? Legally, only if Techsmith complained. Practically, I would wonder about the possibility of confusion. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Deniz Dogan wrote: IANAL, so would this a problem if this logo won? Not necessarily. The Lenny222 entry is distinctly multicoloured unlike TechSmith's which might distinguish it. Trademarks may only apply to a particular industrial sector or geographical region. TechSmith is in computer software and seem to be world-wide so we probably fail on that one. In the UK they seem to have trademarked the word 'TECHSMITH' http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find/t-find-number?detailsrequested=Ctrademark=E2068609 I can't find their image trademarked maybe because the search on that site is confusing. I've tried Google but it's very difficult to find similar abstract images. I'm sure there must be some. If they haven't trademarked the image anywhere it would suggest either they aren't too attached to it or somebody else is using something so close that they can't trademark it. Maybe a search of the US trademark registry would be more productive. Richard. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 04:42, Wolfgang Jeltsch g9ks1...@acme.softbase.org wrote: Am Donnerstag, 19. März 2009 03:53 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Therefore, rank 1 is the best. This is quite the opposite of what Denis Bueno said. :-( Ugh, I'm sorry about this. I've participated in several condorcet elections; and a smaller number is always better. When I said higher was better, that's what I meant; but I realise that is just dumb. I typed the email quickly; sorry about that. I did, however, link to the page explaining things, I think; which ought to be considered over my word. Denis ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:24:28 +0100, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote: [...] Thanks for organizing this, finally I can choose ... Oh my god! How am I supposed to make a vote? Actually, I found the voting process to be fairly straightforward and trivial. Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; then go through the rest of the list, choose your second favorite, and assign rank 2 to it; similarly, repeat until you don't see any more that you like. Each time you assign a rank to a choice, the choice gets sorted to the proper rank location from the top. Then, optionally, choose all the ones that you don't dislike, and give them rank 112 (I skipped this step because I didn't care about any of the ones that I didn't like, and because I was too tired from comparing all the ones that I did like). Finally, leave all the rest with rank 113. The process can take some time, especially at the beginning, since each remaining choice must be compared with all other remaining choices, but is quite thorough. I picked my choices in stages, over a series of time periods, because the entire list was too long to process in one sitting. -- Benjamin L. Russell -- Benjamin L. Russell / DekuDekuplex at Yahoo dot com http://dekudekuplex.wordpress.com/ Translator/Interpreter / Mobile: +011 81 80-3603-6725 Furuike ya, kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto. -- Matsuo Basho^ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:58:12 +0100, Karel Gardas karel.gar...@centrum.cz wrote: Sorry for newcomer silly question, but where is the voting page located? Each voter is assigned a private URL encoding a key for voting. You should have receive a vote in a message entitled CIVS Poll now available for voting: Haskell Logo Competition from Eelco Lempsink, the CIVS poll supervisor, at your e-mail address; if not, ask Lempsink to resend it to you (you can find his e-mail address in his message at the top of this thread). A list of the logos on which to vote is available at http://www.haskell.org/logos/poll.html. You may find it convenient to keep this page open in a separate tab in your browser when voting. -- Benjamin L. Russell -- Benjamin L. Russell / DekuDekuplex at Yahoo dot com http://dekudekuplex.wordpress.com/ Translator/Interpreter / Mobile: +011 81 80-3603-6725 Furuike ya, kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto. -- Matsuo Basho^ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Am Dienstag, 17. März 2009 16:55 schrieb Eelco Lempsink: We'll see. Worst case: nobody votes (with 123 votes at this moment, I don't think that will be the problem). Second worst case: most people don't have/take the time to order a bit, so it turns into a majority vote. Or there are many people like me who won’t vote at all because the process is so difficult and time-consuming. :-( That said, you're absolutely right the visual feedback of the voting system is suboptimal. I'd be very interested in seeing a good UI for this sort of task. I imagine it'd be pretty close to printing everything on small pieces of paper and ordering them by hand ;) A good UI is what we need here. Maybe someone can write a simple app that does the following: * download the logos from the Haskell web server * present the user pairs of logos and let him decide which one of the two presented logos he likes better * shows a progress bar during voting * presents the voting result for easy entering into the webpage Best wishes, Wolfgang ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 10:03 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; Is rank 1 the best or the worst? I thought it would be the worst so I would probably have voted exactly the opposite way than I wanted to. :-( Best wishes, Wolfgang ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Am Dienstag, 17. März 2009 21:08 schrieb Robin Green: However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up. If you announce it on the mailing list, I might use it. By the way, when will the voting period be over? Best wishes, Wolfgang ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Am Mittwoch, 18. März 2009 03:22 schrieb Robin Green: I'm afraid it is entirely terminal-based (i.e. text only), so it doesn't show the pictures. Hmm, this doesn’t help me since I’ve already written a terminal-based app. See attachement. However, no guarantees that this app works as intended. The preferences shown by the app are currently meant to stand for better logos if they are lower. So 1 is the winner, not 113. Well, the terminal-based app is still not enough for me since it’s way too time-consuming to always lookup the pictures. You should have a GUI showing the pictures and allowing you to select the better one of a pair by a single click. Best wishes, Wolfgang module Main ( main ) where import List hiding (sort) main :: IO () main = do putStr Number of items: itemCount - fmap read getLine sorted - sort (\val1 val2 - do putStr $ Is++ show val1 ++ better than ++ show val2 ++ ? initAnswer - getLine getDecision initAnswer) [1..itemCount] putStr $ unlines [show val ++ has preference ++ show rank | (val,rank) - sortBy (\(val1,rank1) (val2,rank2) - compare val1 val2) $ zip sorted [1..itemCount]] getDecision :: String - IO Bool getDecision n = return False getDecision y = return True getDecision _ = do putStr Illegal answer. Try again. answer - getLine getDecision answer sort :: (Monad monad) = (val - val - monad Bool) - [val] - monad [val] sort compare []= return [] sort compare [val] = return [val] sort compare vals = let (part1,part2) = dissociate vals in do sorted1 - sort compare part1 sorted2 - sort compare part2 merge compare sorted1 sorted2 dissociate :: [val] - ([val],[val]) dissociate [] = ([],[]) dissociate [val]= ([val],[]) dissociate (val1 : val2 : vals) = let (subpart1,subpart2) = dissociate vals in (val1 : subpart1,val2 : subpart2) merge :: (Monad monad) = (val - val - monad Bool) - [val] - [val] - monad [val] merge compare [] [] = return [] merge compare vals1 [] = return vals1 merge compare [] vals2 = return vals2 merge compare (val1 : vals1) (val2 : vals2) = do before - compare val1 val2 if before then do subresult - merge compare vals1 (val2 : vals2) return (val1 : subresult) else do subresult - merge compare (val1 : vals1) vals2 return (val2 : subresult) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Firstly, apologies to everyone for sending the same message to the list five times, yesterday! The mailserver I use kept timing out, and I had thought that my mail client would handle attempts to resend an email appropriately, but apparently not. Time to put a paper bag over my head! On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:43:26 +0100 Wolfgang Jeltsch g9ks1...@acme.softbase.org wrote: If you announce it on the mailing list, I might use it. I'm afraid it is entirely terminal-based (i.e. text only), so it doesn't show the pictures. Someone could try and convert it into a web app and display the pictures, but I have no plans to do that. It is not working at the moment, but I hope to get it working and announce it later this week. By the way, when will the voting period be over? The polling page says The poll ends March 24, 2009 at 12:00 UTC. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:36:15 +0100, Wolfgang Jeltsch g9ks1...@acme.softbase.org wrote: Am Mittwoch, 18. Marz 2009 10:03 schrieb Benjamin L.Russell: Just go through the list, choose your top favorite, and assign rank 1 to it; Is rank 1 the best or the worst? On your voting page referenced in a message, entitled CIVS Poll now available for voting: Haskell Logo Competition from Eelco Lempsink, the CIVS poll supervisor (which should have been sent to your e-mail address), the following paragraph describes the meaning of the ranks: Give each of the following choices a rank, where a smaller-numbered rank means that you prefer that choice more. For example, it would make sense to give your top choice (or choices) the rank 1. You may give choices the same rank if you have no preference between them. You do not have to use all the possible ranks. All choices are initially given the lowest possible rank. Therefore, rank 1 is the best. -- Benjamin L. Russell -- Benjamin L. Russell / DekuDekuplex at Yahoo dot com http://dekudekuplex.wordpress.com/ Translator/Interpreter / Mobile: +011 81 80-3603-6725 Furuike ya, kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto. -- Matsuo Basho^ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Eelco Lempsink wrote: Hi there! I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the (former) number 31. Other than that, there was nothing standing in the way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition. By now, I suppose everybody should have received their ballot. If you think you should have received it but didn't, please report it, I can resend the invitation. Also, for people not directly subscribed to the haskell-cafe mailing list, you can still send ballot requests until the end of the competition (March 24, 12:00 UTC). Make sure the message contains 'haskell logo voting ballot request' (e.g. in the subject). Depending on the winner of this voting round we can decide whether we need to continue with variations. Jared Updike already offered to donate a bit of time to help create several variations. But for now, good luck with sorting those options! :) Thanks for organizing this, finally I can choose ... Oh my god! How am I supposed to make a vote? I can barely remember 3 of the 113 logos, let alone memorize that #106 is the narwhal. There are lots of very good or just good candidates and I would like to order them all to my liking, but without instant visual feedback on the voting ballot, this is a hopeless task. Since I have about 10 minutes to spare for voting, I'm just going to pick 5 candidates at random and order these? Actually, I think I prefer to be completely paralyzed by the overwhelming choice instead and not vote at all. Alternatively, it seems that it's possible to upload rankings from a file. But which format? And is there a zip file with the logo proposals so I can try to arrange them via dragdrop in some picture gallery application? A simple majority vote is clearly inadequate for this vote, but I'm afraid that without assisting technology (instant and visual feedback), the voting process will more or less deteriorate to that due to the difficulty of creating quality input votes. Regards, apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:24:28 +0100 Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote: A simple majority vote is clearly inadequate for this vote, but I'm afraid that without assisting technology (instant and visual feedback), the voting process will more or less deteriorate to that due to the difficulty of creating quality input votes. Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this form almost unusable! -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On 17 Mar 2009, at 15:24, Heinrich Apfelmus wrote: Eelco Lempsink wrote: Hi there! I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the (former) number 31. Other than that, there was nothing standing in the way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition. By now, I suppose everybody should have received their ballot. If you think you should have received it but didn't, please report it, I can resend the invitation. Also, for people not directly subscribed to the haskell-cafe mailing list, you can still send ballot requests until the end of the competition (March 24, 12:00 UTC). Make sure the message contains 'haskell logo voting ballot request' (e.g. in the subject). Depending on the winner of this voting round we can decide whether we need to continue with variations. Jared Updike already offered to donate a bit of time to help create several variations. But for now, good luck with sorting those options! :) Thanks for organizing this, finally I can choose ... Oh my god! How am I supposed to make a vote? I can barely remember 3 of the 113 logos, let alone memorize that #106 is the narwhal. There are lots of very good or just good candidates and I would like to order them all to my liking, but without instant visual feedback on the voting ballot, this is a hopeless task. Since I have about 10 minutes to spare for voting, I'm just going to pick 5 candidates at random and order these? Actually, I think I prefer to be completely paralyzed by the overwhelming choice instead and not vote at all. Alternatively, it seems that it's possible to upload rankings from a file. But which format? And is there a zip file with the logo proposals so I can try to arrange them via dragdrop in some picture gallery application? A simple majority vote is clearly inadequate for this vote, but I'm afraid that without assisting technology (instant and visual feedback), the voting process will more or less deteriorate to that due to the difficulty of creating quality input votes. I have to agree that the UI for voting is not the best I've ever seen. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to select the few logos that you like, and push them all to the top, select the ones you'd accept, and push them up just below, and finally select the ones you absolutely don't like and push them all the way down. That at least is what I did. Bob ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:11:54 +0100 Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: I have to agree that the UI for voting is not the best I've ever seen. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to select the few logos that you like, and push them all to the top, select the ones you'd accept, and push them up just below, and finally select the ones you absolutely don't like and push them all the way down. That at least is what I did. Did you check that code bugs hadn't reordered your votes? I am worried about this destroying the validity of the election. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
I am also concerned that the default behaviour of the buttons will lead to arbitrary preference rankings favouring those with entries that start more towards the top or bottom of the list. You shouldn't have to go to a lot of extra effort to create a tie between several entries, if you can't decide (or don't want to decide) between them. However, this isn't as significant as the buggy reordering behaviour I'm seeing. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
And we thought butterfly ballots were bad. I just went through the logo page and wrote down my favorite 20 logos in one column, and gave them a rank in the other. Then translated that into the voting list using the combo boxes (not the buttons). The total process took 20 minutes. I am on FF3 on windows and didn't notice any reordering aside the (un?)expected reordering by rank. On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Robin Green gree...@greenrd.org wrote: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:11:54 +0100 Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: I have to agree that the UI for voting is not the best I've ever seen. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to select the few logos that you like, and push them all to the top, select the ones you'd accept, and push them up just below, and finally select the ones you absolutely don't like and push them all the way down. That at least is what I did. Did you check that code bugs hadn't reordered your votes? I am worried about this destroying the validity of the election. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On 17 mrt 2009, at 15:24, Heinrich Apfelmus wrote: Eelco Lempsink wrote: I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the (former) number 31. Other than that, there was nothing standing in the way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition. Thanks for organizing this, finally I can choose ... Oh my god! How am I supposed to make a vote? I can barely remember 3 of the 113 logos, let alone memorize that #106 is the narwhal. There are lots of very good or just good candidates and I would like to order them all to my liking, but without instant visual feedback on the voting ballot, this is a hopeless task. Since I have about 10 minutes to spare for voting, I'm just going to pick 5 candidates at random and order these? Actually, I think I prefer to be completely paralyzed by the overwhelming choice instead and not vote at all. I can imagine that, it's a daunting and (optionally) time consuming task. The burden of democracy ;) Alternatively, it seems that it's possible to upload rankings from a file. But which format? Good question. I don't know and couldn't find it in the CIVS FAQ either. And is there a zip file with the logo proposals so I can try to arrange them via dragdrop in some picture gallery application? Well, actually, there is, since the files were moved to the main Haskell server after the community server couldn't bear the load anymore (Igloo saving the day! ;). You can get all the files from http://haskell.org/logos/logos.tar.gz . Note that there are probably a couple of files in there that are not in the competition, but artifacts from before (re)grouping some of the logos. A simple majority vote is clearly inadequate for this vote, but I'm afraid that without assisting technology (instant and visual feedback), the voting process will more or less deteriorate to that due to the difficulty of creating quality input votes. We'll see. Worst case: nobody votes (with 123 votes at this moment, I don't think that will be the problem). Second worst case: most people don't have/take the time to order a bit, so it turns into a majority vote. That said, you're absolutely right the visual feedback of the voting system is suboptimal. I'd be very interested in seeing a good UI for this sort of task. I imagine it'd be pretty close to printing everything on small pieces of paper and ordering them by hand ;) -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On 17 mrt 2009, at 16:33, Rick R wrote: I just went through the logo page and wrote down my favorite 20 logos in one column, and gave them a rank in the other. Then translated that into the voting list using the combo boxes (not the buttons). The total process took 20 minutes. Yeah, the combo boxes are terribly slow. I tried them with a smaller poll, and there seems to be a bit of exponential behavior. If you want to do it this way (pick x, rank them), I suggest you start with putting the ones you ranked lowest on top first, using the 'to top' button, and then move the up your list to put the next one on top until you reached the top one. -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
Hi, Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this form almost unusable! I guess it works like this: Move down on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's current value. This may require changing more than one number, for example if we have: (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: D ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: D) of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is doing this wrongly ;) Btw, I really think the logos should be on the same page as the voting form. Hotkeys for the buttons would be good too. It's usable though if you (incorrectly) consider the numbers as a sort of reverse star rating to make a O(n) pass, possibly finetuning later. Greetings, Daniel ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
(correction of the example) (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: E) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
QED 2009/3/17 Daniel Schüssler anotheraddr...@gmx.de (correction of the example) (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: E) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - A. Einstein ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tuesday 17 March 2009 21:03:21 Rick R wrote: QED Hmm? Maybe if confusingness was to be demonstrated, but not bugginess. Both possibilities will result in the same total preordering (defined by (x `betterThanOrEq` y) iff (numberInCombobox x = numberInCombobox y)), and (AFAIK) only this ordering matters for condorcet. Greetings, Daniel ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 04:03:21PM -0400, Rick R wrote: QED Only relative ordering matters for condorcet, not the absolute rank. e.g., ranking A, B and C rank 1, and D, E and F rank 6 is exactly the same as ranking e.g., ranking A, B and C rank 2, and D, E and F rank 3. In both cases below, moving X down is moving X from the same rank as B to a new rank between B and C,D. Presumably moving it down a second time would merge the X and C,D ranks. Personally, I found assigning ranks with the dropdown list to be easiest. I first sorted them into approx 8 buckets (using ranks like 10,20,40,60,80,100 as buckets, although some ended up between two buckets), and then sorted my highly ranked buckets (where high is the end near 10). 2009/3/17 Daniel Schüssler anotheraddr...@gmx.de (correction of the example) (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: E) Thanks Ian ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100 Daniel Schüssler anotheraddr...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this form almost unusable! I guess it works like this: Move down on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's current value. This may require changing more than one number, for example if we have: (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: D ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: D) of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is doing this wrongly ;) Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down, and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed down to the bottom. Scarily bad. However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100 Daniel Schüssler anotheraddr...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this form almost unusable! I guess it works like this: Move down on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's current value. This may require changing more than one number, for example if we have: (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: D ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: D) of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is doing this wrongly ;) Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down, and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed down to the bottom. Scarily bad. However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100 Daniel Schüssler anotheraddr...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this form almost unusable! I guess it works like this: Move down on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's current value. This may require changing more than one number, for example if we have: (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: D ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: D) of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is doing this wrongly ;) Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down, and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed down to the bottom. Scarily bad. However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100 Daniel Schüssler anotheraddr...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this form almost unusable! I guess it works like this: Move down on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's current value. This may require changing more than one number, for example if we have: (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: D ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: D) of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is doing this wrongly ;) Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down, and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed down to the bottom. Scarily bad. However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote: Eelco Lempsink wrote: Hi there! I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the (former) number 31. Other than that, there was nothing standing in the way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition. By now, I suppose everybody should have received their ballot. If you think you should have received it but didn't, please report it, I can resend the invitation. Also, for people not directly subscribed to the haskell-cafe mailing list, you can still send ballot requests until the end of the competition (March 24, 12:00 UTC). Make sure the message contains 'haskell logo voting ballot request' (e.g. in the subject). Depending on the winner of this voting round we can decide whether we need to continue with variations. Jared Updike already offered to donate a bit of time to help create several variations. But for now, good luck with sorting those options! :) Thanks for organizing this, finally I can choose ... Oh my god! How am I supposed to make a vote? I can barely remember 3 of the 113 logos, let alone memorize that #106 is the narwhal. There are lots of very good or just good candidates and I would like to order them all to my liking, but without instant visual feedback on the voting ballot, this is a hopeless task. Indeed, I thought each entry would contain a thumbnail for the logo itself, but I guess it doesn't support HTML? This is pretty arduous... -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100 Daniel Schüssler anotheraddr...@gmx.de wrote: Hi, Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this form almost unusable! I guess it works like this: Move down on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's current value. This may require changing more than one number, for example if we have: (105: ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E ) (110: ) moving down X will result in either (105: A) (106: B) (107: X ) (108: C,D) (109: D ) (110: ) or equivalently (105: ) (106: A) (107: B ) (108: X ) (109: C,D) (110: D) of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is doing this wrongly ;) Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down, and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed down to the bottom. Scarily bad. However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
The main problems I had with the voting system were (1) In order to choose a rank, I had to scroll *up* over 100+ unwanted ranks. If only the scrolling started at the *top* -- for the simple reason that few people will want to rank all 113 choices, so almost all of the ranks people want will be near the top -- it would have taken a lot less time. It would have taken FAR less time to just type the numbers of the things I liked in the order I wanted them. (2) Whenever I chose something, the browser spun its wheels for a *long* time. Why is moving something in a list so hard? (3) It would have been *much* easier for me to just shuffle the pictures. I had to constantly flick between two windows *and* scroll each of them differently to see what I was choosing. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!
There are larger versions of most of them here: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas 30 should probably have been split up by typeface. My votes: 68, 58, 59, 30, 6, 61, 3, 37, 34, 36, rest. I had trouble choosing between my top four. Note that votes cannot be modified after being cast. Probably I'll be the one to update most appearances on haskell.org once we have a winner, though I think the logo appears in a number of places around the web. -- Ashley Yakeley ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
