Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell is a scripting language inspiredby Python.
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org wrote:
Luke Palmer lrpal...@gmail.com writes:
To us, scripting meant short, potent code that rolled off your
fingers and into the computers mind, compelling it to do your job with
reverence to the super power you truly are.
Just when I thought, oh, there are two definitions for scripting
language, another one pops out. So scripting languages can be three
things:
1) A language for controlling ('scripting') an application (e.g. TCL, VBA)
2) A language for controlling the running of various applications
(e.g. shell scripts)
3) An agile language for making short programs (e.g. Perl)
More definitions of scripting language:
a) too slow to do real work
b) Also they don't scale well
I think Haskell can be fast enough to do 'real work', and although I
haven't really written any large programs in Haskell, I don't see why it
should scale worse than other languages.
here's another definition:
a script is what you give the actors, but a program is what you give
the audience
-- Ada Lovelace according to Larry Wall
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Larry_Wall#The_State_of_the_Onion_11
Like most Larry quotes, it is immediately loveable.
one of Haskell creators calls Haskell an advanced scripting language:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/emeijer/ErikMeijer.html
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell is a scripting language inspiredby Python.
On 05/11/2010, at 4:11 PM, Luke Palmer wrote: Also they don't scale well, which I guess means that they don't make it inconvenient to design badly. And they don't communicate enough information about the preconditions/postconditions of their functions to easily allow large programs to remain correct? That is, the types expected and returned.___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell is a scripting language inspiredby Python.
Quoth Luke Palmer lrpal...@gmail.com, ... Scripting language strikes me as one of those terms that is used in heated arguments despite having no meaning (meaningless terms seem to proliferate as the heat is turned up). I dunno, I just don't think it is a big deal. Everybody seems to be calling Haskell a DSL-writing language, but that can just as easily be taken as a point for and against it. If people find Haskell useful for scripting, then it is a scripting language. No need to be offended. It _does_ have a meaning, if only anyone cared. Some discussion here just in the last couple days that explored use of Haskell for scripting, and it's really quite an interesting notion though apparently far from practical at this time. Interesting because, among other reasons, a scripting language is aimed at people whose expertise is in the scripted application, not so much the theory and practice of computer programming, and Haskell seems to the casual observer very heavy on the latter. My guess is it isn't necessarily that bad - you might have to understand the type system well enough to implement an instance of Ord, for example, but you wouldn't need that the first day. You'd have to get used to the IO monad the first day, though. Donn ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell is a scripting language inspiredby Python.
Luke Palmer lrpal...@gmail.com writes:
To us, scripting meant short, potent code that rolled off your
fingers and into the computers mind, compelling it to do your job with
reverence to the super power you truly are.
Just when I thought, oh, there are two definitions for scripting
language, another one pops out. So scripting languages can be three
things:
1) A language for controlling ('scripting') an application (e.g. TCL, VBA)
2) A language for controlling the running of various applications
(e.g. shell scripts)
3) An agile language for making short programs (e.g. Perl)
Although Haskell is quite expressive, programs tend to need a bit of
'wrap' (module declaration, imports, etc), making it a bit more
heavyweight than Perl or AWK for #3. For #2, I think running other
programs are a bit too cumbersome, but perhaps this is just a library
problem? I haven't really looke at #1, I think we lack a small, easily
embeddable interpreter.
So, I wouldn't really call Haskell a scripting language in its current
state in any of these senses, although it's close for #3. I think you
see more of an advantage for slightly larger programs - ones that you
perhaps need to maintain - though.
More definitions of scripting language:
a) too slow to do real work
b) Also they don't scale well
I think Haskell can be fast enough to do 'real work', and although I
haven't really written any large programs in Haskell, I don't see why it
should scale worse than other languages.
-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell is a scripting language inspiredby Python.
Quoth Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com, ... I didn't get to see the Amiga 600 until at least five or six years later than that. (It's actually news to me that the Amiga line is that old.) And I spent most of my time programming it in Pascal (or AMOS BASIC - but that's not really BASIC any more). And between that, there was Borland Turbo Pascal 5.5 for MS-DOS, if you were forced to use a PC. It's scary to think that even way back then, vastly superior languages were being used in secret... I imagine it's the same in most areas of human endeavor. When the Amiga came out, I remember a somewhat effusive article in a major magazine (BYTE, I think?), enough that it sure would have been my choice (had I the funds and need for a computer.) But of course, for all it's obviously vast superiority, never really went anywhere. Haskell has a lot going for it, too, but that doesn't make much difference in the big picture. Is it because merit just doesn't count? Tough question. The Amiga had some great stuff, but also some rough edges, and while it may have all been about marketing and herd behavior, you can't totally discount the possibility that people just know what they like, and that wasn't it. Surely it's the same with Haskell in some ways. I don't care about whether Python had any influence, but I'd sure like to stamp out the scripting language rumor. For that matter, I propose that there is hardly any such thing as a scripting language per se, but rather that it's a relative notion - if I have an application X, then I may enhance it with a scripting language Y, but outside of that context it's a programming language, not a scripting language. I know this contradicts common usage to a considerable extent, but it's an ignorant and foolish common usage. I suppose the confusion may begin with system scripting languages, like the UNIX shell or REXX, where the parallel between an OS and an application may not be as obvious (unless you're an Amiga geek!) as the resemblance between the shell and other interpreted programming languages. Donn Cave, d...@avvanta.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell is a scripting language inspiredby Python.
On 5/11/2010, at 1:00 PM, Donn Cave wrote: I don't care about whether Python had any influence, but I'd sure like to stamp out the scripting language rumor. In this case it may be the Haskell community to blame. Google for Haskell script and you will find, for example, Learn you a Haskell for Great Good! where the introduction page says GHC can take a Haskell script (they usually have a .hs extension) and compile it. That author is not alone in habitually calling .hs files scripts. I remember trying to get a certain academic to call Haskell programs *programs*, but he insisted that scripts was the only right word. That Google search finds plenty of other sites using the same terminology. I think I even found it in a book once. And need I remind you that www.haskell.org/cabal/proposal/x444.html calls Setup.lhs the setup *script*? I suppose the confusion may begin with system scripting languages, like the UNIX shell or REXX, where the parallel between an OS and an application may not be as obvious In fact the Korn shell *is* an application scripting language. The debugger in Solaris uses ksh as a scripting language, and ATT used it for many other things. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell is a scripting language inspiredby Python.
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Donn Cave d...@avvanta.com wrote: I don't care about whether Python had any influence, but I'd sure like to stamp out the scripting language rumor. You all are talking about calling Haskell a scripting language like it's a bad thing. Coming from a Perl background, I learned that when a culture made stuck-up claims about its language being a real programming language, what it meant was that it would be verbose, dry, and no fun. To us, scripting meant short, potent code that rolled off your fingers and into the computers mind, compelling it to do your job with reverence to the super power you truly are. Programming meant a system with 100,000 lines of boring code that reinvents a broken dialect of LISP because it was too rigid to get the job done naturally. I also have a C++ background and a C# foreground. This large, inert culture views Programs with a capital P as large, complete tools like Photoshop (also with a capital P). Their #1 stigma against scripting languages is that they are too slow to do real work. Also they don't scale well, which I guess means that they don't make it inconvenient to design badly. Haskell is a language in which it is possible to write short, potent code (I use it at the command line). It is fast enough to do real work. It is inconvenient to design badly. It is fun. It is also dry sometimes. Scripting language strikes me as one of those terms that is used in heated arguments despite having no meaning (meaningless terms seem to proliferate as the heat is turned up). I dunno, I just don't think it is a big deal. Everybody seems to be calling Haskell a DSL-writing language, but that can just as easily be taken as a point for and against it. If people find Haskell useful for scripting, then it is a scripting language. No need to be offended. Luke ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
