Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Looking over the New_logo_ideas page, my vote is for the snowflake logo: http://haskell.org/sitewiki/images/9/98/Haskell-Symstar.png (I would simplify it, though, by removing the motto pure - lazy - fun.) I like this logo because it works well on two different levels. For those in the know, the lambda and = symbols suggest monads and first-class functions, two important features of the language. For those unfamiliar with Haskell or functional programming, the logo still looks pretty cool and manages to suggest mathematical beauty. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Time-for-a-new-logo--tp21004746p21138458.html Sent from the Haskell - Haskell-Cafe mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: intimidating terminology (was: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?)
On 2008 Dec 19, at 4:13, Lennart Augustsson wrote: When accurate names for Haskell concepts already exist we should use them (as we have tried in the past). There has been too much invention of misleading terminology in computing already. If some people can't handle things having the right names, well, maybe they should try another language. (What would happen if we used the new name principle, e.g., in cooking? Oh, cinnamon is a difficult name, I'll call it tangy spice instead.) Cinnamon's already got an accuracy problem anyway: what most people in the US call cinnamon is actually cassia. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: intimidating terminology (was: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?)
When accurate names for Haskell concepts already exist we should use them (as we have tried in the past). There has been too much invention of misleading terminology in computing already. If some people can't handle things having the right names, well, maybe they should try another language. (What would happen if we used the new name principle, e.g., in cooking? Oh, cinnamon is a difficult name, I'll call it tangy spice instead.) -- Lennart On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:23 AM, wren ng thornton w...@freegeek.org wrote: quoth Andrew Coppin: quoth Tristan Seligmann: quoth Andrew Coppin: Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't foundanywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think up some less intimidating terminology? The problem is that less intimidating terminology generally seems to mean inaccurate or misleading terminology. I'm not sure I agree with that. Sure, simplifying things *can* make them less precise. But I don't believe it is always necessarily so. And I think we could try a little bit harder here. (Nothing too radical, just some small changes.) Consider the humble catamorphism (and anamorphism). Can you think of any simple, descriptive, non-ambiguous name for this pattern other than the technical name? An oft used name is fold (and unfold) which is simple, possibly descriptive, but certainly ambiguous. For example: the fold/unfold names are used as jargon for optimization ---in compilers for logic languages and query planning for databases--- for inlining functions and then 'outlining' parts after doing some reorganization. There are other technical uses which are just as different. The problem with simple terms for jargon is that they're all taken. When we take everyday terms like fold, set, list, tree, category, type, kind, sort, variety, domain, group, et cetera and reappropriate them for technical use there are two problems. The first is that all of the simple everyday terms have already been appropriated time and again, so using it will often be ambiguous. The second is that the technical meaning often does not expressly match the daily meaning, which in turn means that these terms will often be confusing or used casually in a way that confuses the daily and technical meanings. It's all well and good for terminology to be non-intimidating, but for technical terminology I think there must be a high premium on correctness as well. Reappropriating terms which have fallen into disuse for their original meanings (e.g. monad) or which are taken or invented from languages the audience is unlikely to be familiar with (e.g. catamorphism) ensures that we don't have to worry about baggage associated with those words. This is good because it means there won't be conflicts of meaning, but it's bad because it means the audience can't intuit an approximate meaning. Pedantic as I am wont to be, I think the benefit outweighs the detriment, but YMMV. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: intimidating terminology (was: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?)
On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 09:13 +, Lennart Augustsson wrote: When accurate names for Haskell concepts already exist we should use them (as we have tried in the past). There has been too much invention of misleading terminology in computing already. There are two possible cases (this applies to any branch of mathematics, or mathematical discipline): a) Use existing words, and give them new meanings. Then you're using a word that already means something else. Best example: series vs. sequence in calculus. b) Invent a new word (probably based on Latin or Greek roots). Then you're using incomprehensible and frightening technical jargon. Best example: catamorphism (apparently). So you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. My solution: stop caring what people think. jcc ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
intimidating terminology (was: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?)
quoth Andrew Coppin: quoth Tristan Seligmann: quoth Andrew Coppin: Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think up some less intimidating terminology? The problem is that less intimidating terminology generally seems to mean inaccurate or misleading terminology. I'm not sure I agree with that. Sure, simplifying things *can* make them less precise. But I don't believe it is always necessarily so. And I think we could try a little bit harder here. (Nothing too radical, just some small changes.) Consider the humble catamorphism (and anamorphism). Can you think of any simple, descriptive, non-ambiguous name for this pattern other than the technical name? An oft used name is fold (and unfold) which is simple, possibly descriptive, but certainly ambiguous. For example: the fold/unfold names are used as jargon for optimization ---in compilers for logic languages and query planning for databases--- for inlining functions and then 'outlining' parts after doing some reorganization. There are other technical uses which are just as different. The problem with simple terms for jargon is that they're all taken. When we take everyday terms like fold, set, list, tree, category, type, kind, sort, variety, domain, group, et cetera and reappropriate them for technical use there are two problems. The first is that all of the simple everyday terms have already been appropriated time and again, so using it will often be ambiguous. The second is that the technical meaning often does not expressly match the daily meaning, which in turn means that these terms will often be confusing or used casually in a way that confuses the daily and technical meanings. It's all well and good for terminology to be non-intimidating, but for technical terminology I think there must be a high premium on correctness as well. Reappropriating terms which have fallen into disuse for their original meanings (e.g. monad) or which are taken or invented from languages the audience is unlikely to be familiar with (e.g. catamorphism) ensures that we don't have to worry about baggage associated with those words. This is good because it means there won't be conflicts of meaning, but it's bad because it means the audience can't intuit an approximate meaning. Pedantic as I am wont to be, I think the benefit outweighs the detriment, but YMMV. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 16 Dec 2008, at 18:40, Darrin Thompson wrote: \\ \\ \\ \\ \| \\ \\ --- \\ \\ // / \ // / \ \| // / /\\ --- // / / \\ Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says Haskell, it's all about monads. Bob ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 Dec 2008, at 18:40, Darrin Thompson wrote: \\ \\ \\ \\ \| \\ \\ --- \\ \\ // / \ // / \ \| // / /\\ --- // / / \\ Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says Haskell, it's all about monads. But it's a very pretty logo. And the idea of computation abstractions, Applicatives and Monads in particular, are a pretty big part of Haskell as a language and as a culture. Haskell, it's not exactly *not* about monads. IOW: ⋄About(Haskell, Monads) Luke ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 17 Dec 2008, at 09:26, Luke Palmer wrote: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 Dec 2008, at 18:40, Darrin Thompson wrote: \\ \\ \\ \\ \| \\ \\ --- \\ \\ // / \ // / \ \| // / /\\ --- // / / \\ Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says Haskell, it's all about monads. But it's a very pretty logo. And the idea of computation abstractions, Applicatives and Monads in particular, are a pretty big part of Haskell as a language and as a culture. Haskell, it's not exactly not about monads. No, I agree, but there's already a large body of literature that implies that Haskell is pretty much only about monads, and I'd hate to see the logo go the same way. Though I do take your point about abstractions being a major part of the language. Bob___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
I agree on what some people say; I see no point in trying to advertise elitism. Let's avoid the same mistake as the linux community made; soon we'll have an internal flame war about which monad is the best (linux distribution flame-wars analog), arguing who's the most 31337 haxxor and so on. In my opinion, true elegance comes from being really good at something without pushing it in the face of others. Let the log say haskell - it's elegant without trying to be posh. /Gf 2008/12/17 Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com: On 17 Dec 2008, at 09:26, Luke Palmer wrote: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 Dec 2008, at 18:40, Darrin Thompson wrote: \\ \\ \\ \\ \| \\ \\ --- \\ \\ // / \ // / \ \| // / /\\ --- // / / \\ Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says Haskell, it's all about monads. But it's a very pretty logo. And the idea of computation abstractions, Applicatives and Monads in particular, are a pretty big part of Haskell as a language and as a culture. Haskell, it's not exactly not about monads. No, I agree, but there's already a large body of literature that implies that Haskell is pretty much only about monads, and I'd hate to see the logo go the same way. Though I do take your point about abstractions being a major part of the language. Bob ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Patience is the last resort for those unable to take action ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
2008/12/17 wman 666w...@gmail.com: 2008/12/17 Tristan Seligmann mithra...@mithrandi.net I really don't think that including a visual pun on the (=) operator translates to Haskell, it's all about monads; you're only likely to recognise the pun after you already know about monads anyway. True, true, and who cares about folks afraid of unknown operators which might do wonderfull stuff ;-))) That's the kind of mentality I am talking about. The we are better than you mentality, should stay with the Java and .NET people. If you have this urge of feeling superior and believe haskell-hacking is some kind of achievement. . Haskell is a tool like any other, it's the ideas you manifest by it that are important. And of course the way you do it. The logo should be attractive; fire sparks of curiosity, represent what haskell is, capture the essence of haskell. Ps: This is no flame, I am making a point. If you feel this is a flame; then I must apologize for the harsh tone. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Patience is the last resort for those unable to take action ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
2008/12/17 Tristan Seligmann mithra...@mithrandi.net I really don't think that including a visual pun on the (=) operator translates to Haskell, it's all about monads; you're only likely to recognise the pun after you already know about monads anyway. True, true, and who cares about folks afraid of unknown operators which might do wonderfull stuff ;-))) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
* Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com [2008-12-16 20:23:50 +]:
I think the accusation is more that Haskell tries to be cryptic and
arcane *on purpose*, just to confuse people.
Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found
anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think
up some less intimidating terminology?
The problem is that less intimidating terminology generally seems to
mean inaccurate or misleading terminology. They aren't concepts that
aren't found anywhere else, they're concepts that *are* found elsewhere
(category theory, among other places), that's why they have those names.
(Also, coroutines? Seriously? That's hardly an obscure term in
programming circles.)
{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
Also much less informative, and less accurate. The fact that Haskell
embraces its mathematical basis instead of trying to completely
obfuscate it away is not a bad thing, in my opinion.
But then, I guess that's what you get for a lanuage designed by a
committee of university professors. ;-)
At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
only theoretical physicists need apply...
I think you're reading way too much into a logo.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
I must agree, the proposal pure . lazy . fun is quite funny and informative at the same time. It will hopefully also supply people with something to laugh about when they have learned enough. :) While being true, it's also subtle. /Gf On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org wrote: Gianfranco Alongi gianfranco.alo...@gmail.com writes: I agree on what some people say; I see no point in trying to advertise elitism. For this reason, my favorite subtitle is pure . lazy . fun. Nice and friendly, with some doulbe meanings for the cognoscenti. (I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to add simple in there with a straight face.) Is it an option to add a \tau to the \lambda? Especially if we go for the lambda in a circle theme - to differentiate from Half-life, Scheme, and other kids' stuff :-) -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants -- Patience is the last resort for those unable to take action ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
* Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com [2008-12-17 09:10:55 +0100]: Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says Haskell, it's all about monads. I don't see anyone complaining about the python logo being something that says Python, it's all about snakes (Python is named after Monty Python). I really don't think that including a visual pun on the (=) operator translates to Haskell, it's all about monads; you're only likely to recognise the pun after you already know about monads anyway. -- mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Gianfranco Alongi gianfranco.alo...@gmail.com writes: I agree on what some people say; I see no point in trying to advertise elitism. For this reason, my favorite subtitle is pure . lazy . fun. Nice and friendly, with some doulbe meanings for the cognoscenti. (I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to add simple in there with a straight face.) Is it an option to add a \tau to the \lambda? Especially if we go for the lambda in a circle theme - to differentiate from Half-life, Scheme, and other kids' stuff :-) -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Jonathan Cast wrote:
{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
No, it's cute. Repulsively so.
Right. So giving things meaningful names is repulsive? No wonder
Haskell has a reputation for being incomprehensible...
At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
only theoretical physicists need apply...
I'd like to hold out, again, for the idea that we get a higher-quality
community by promoting that notion.
In other words, you want to keep Haskell elitist. Well, if that's what
the community in general wants, then fine. Personally, I strongly
disagree with this snobbish point of view. But I am only one voice...
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
andrewcoppin:
Jonathan Cast wrote:
{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
No, it's cute. Repulsively so.
Right. So giving things meaningful names is repulsive? No wonder
Haskell has a reputation for being incomprehensible...
At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
only theoretical physicists need apply...
I'd like to hold out, again, for the idea that we get a higher-quality
community by promoting that notion.
In other words, you want to keep Haskell elitist. Well, if that's what
the community in general wants, then fine. Personally, I strongly
disagree with this snobbish point of view. But I am only one voice...
Chillax peoples. We'll all be able to vote on logos cute or otherwise in
January.
Until Dec 31, continue uploading useful suggestions and variants to the
submissions page
http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 21:31 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
Jonathan Cast wrote:
{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
No, it's cute. Repulsively so.
Right. So giving things meaningful names is repulsive?
I reject your belief that `HiddenTypeVariables' is more meaningful than
`ExistentialQuantification'. Meaning comes from previous usage, and
your neologism doesn't have any.
At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
only theoretical physicists need apply...
I'd like to hold out, again, for the idea that we get a higher-quality
community by promoting that notion.
In other words, you want to keep Haskell elitist.
I think there's value in having elites around.
jcc
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Am Mittwoch, 17. Dezember 2008 22:35 schrieb Jonathan Cast: On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 21:31 +, Andrew Coppin wrote: In other words, you want to keep Haskell elitist. I think there's value in having elites around. Yes, but not if they're elitist :-) Seriously, I hope you're deliberately overstating your point. jcc ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Gianfranco Alongi wrote: That's the kind of mentality I am talking about. The we are better than you mentality, should stay with the Java and .NET people. If you have this urge of feeling superior and believe haskell-hacking is some kind of achievement. . Haskell is a tool like any other, it's the ideas you manifest by it that are important. And of course the way you do it. The logo should be attractive; fire sparks of curiosity, represent what haskell is, capture the essence of haskell. Amen to that! ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Tristan Seligmann wrote:
* Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com [2008-12-16 20:23:50 +]:
Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found
anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think
up some less intimidating terminology?
The problem is that less intimidating terminology generally seems to
mean inaccurate or misleading terminology.
I'm not sure I agree with that.
Sure, simplifying things *can* make them less precise. But I don't
believe it is always necessarily so. And I think we could try a little
bit harder here. (Nothing too radical, just some small changes.)
They aren't concepts that
aren't found anywhere else, they're concepts that *are* found elsewhere
(category theory, among other places), that's why they have those names.
And who knows category theory? Almost nobody. If you insist on naming
stuff after things that nobody will have heard of and which sound highly
technical, you're going to seriously limit your potential audience.
(Hylomorphisms verses epimorphisms. Anybody remember which is which?)
(Also, coroutines? Seriously? That's hardly an obscure term in
programming circles.)
Well now, I'm curios. I've been writing computer programs since I was 9
years old. I hold a diploma *and* an honours degree in computer science.
And I have never even *heard* of a coroutine. To this day I still don't
know what it means. I rather suspect I'm not the only programmer on
earth who finds themselves in this position. ;-)
{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
Also much less informative, and less accurate.
How so?
Turning on this extension allows you to hide a type variable from the
RHS of a data statement from appearing on the LHS. That's *exactly* what
this extension does. What could be more descriptive? (Without launching
into advanced logic theory anyway...)
The fact that Haskell
embraces its mathematical basis instead of trying to completely
obfuscate it away is not a bad thing, in my opinion.
I don't see how having a pronouncible name for something is
obfuscation. It's good that Haskell's mathematical foundations show
through, but it would be bad if Haskell were completely opaque without
first doing a postdoc in category theory. Technical terms are only
useful to those who already know what they mean, after all.
(We don't talk about single-valued total relations, we talk about
functions. Because nobody knows what the heck a single-valued total
relation is, but most people immediately get what a funtion is.)
But then, I guess that's what you get for a lanuage designed by a
committee of university professors. ;-)
At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
only theoretical physicists need apply...
I think you're reading way too much into a logo.
The current logo is basically a circle plus a whole heap of mathematical
symbols. That doesn't really say hey, this stuff is fun, come on in!
It says this is for maths nerds only. (Which isn't actually true, in
my opinion. But the current logo gives that impression.) I'd like our
new logo to do better in this direction, that's all.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
The current logo is basically a circle plus a whole heap of mathematical symbols. That doesn't really say hey, this stuff is fun, come on in! It says this is for maths nerds only. (Which isn't actually true, in my opinion. But the current logo gives that impression.) I'd like our new logo to do better in this direction, that's all. Please contribute logos. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 23:00 +0100, Daniel Fischer wrote: Am Mittwoch, 17. Dezember 2008 22:35 schrieb Jonathan Cast: On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 21:31 +, Andrew Coppin wrote: In other words, you want to keep Haskell elitist. I think there's value in having elites around. Yes, but not if they're elitist :-) Seriously, I hope you're deliberately overstating your point. I always deliberately over-state my points, it's funnier that way :) jcc ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
And who knows category theory? Almost nobody. If you insist on naming stuff after things that nobody will have heard of and which sound highly technical, you're going to seriously limit your potential audience. If you insist on naming stuff ad hoc, you're going to seriously limit the appeal of the language for those who care about correctness and mathematical concepts. No matter which way you go, there'll be someone who isn't quite content. But there are already a plethora of languages out there that don't care about correctness. Haskell is one of few languages that cater to the scientific community primarily, and it has come where it is today because of that, of staying true to theory instead of taking the pragmatic approach. That's just one reason I prefer Haskell over all the mainstream languages. Also, you're picking examples that make it sound far worse than it really is. I don't have the least clue about category theory, but knowing what a hylomorphism is (which I don't) is hardly something you need to be a proficient Haskell programmer (which I am). Existential quantification on the other hand, that's really something every programmer should know what it is. Programming is an engineering art, and I wouldn't want my programs to be written by someone uneducated in such matters anymore than I would like my lines fixed by a self-taught electrician. We can and should expect something of the practitioners of our discipline. And we should set the bar accordingly, to induce the will to learn rather than a feeling that you don't need to know. That's not elitism, it's pragmatism, for the improvement of programs and programming. Oh, and I really like the \\= logo, very neat! :-) Cheers, /Niklas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Andrew Coppin writes: And who knows category theory? Almost nobody. If you insist on naming stuff after things that nobody will have heard of and which sound highly technical, you're going to seriously limit your potential audience. Speak for yourself, not for almost everybody, or you will going to seriously limit your potential audience (which might be already restricted to those who don't care about seriousness of your statements). ALL mathematicians know CT. All formal papers on Monads touch CT. Well, OK, I know, Monads and you are two different worlds... (Also, coroutines? Seriously? That's hardly an obscure term in programming circles.) Well now, I'm curios. I've been writing computer programs since I was 9 years old. I hold a diploma *and* an honours degree in computer science. And I have never even *heard* of a coroutine. To this day I still don't know what it means. I rather suspect I'm not the only programmer on earth who finds themselves in this position. ;-) If one day I decide to return back to some religion, I will pray for the souls of your teachers. How many microseconds have they spent teaching parallel programming? I suggest that you say goodmorning to Google. Jerzy Karczmarczuk ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
[Names removed as a courtesy] True, true, and who cares about folks afraid of unknown operators which might do wonderfull stuff ;-))) That's the kind of mentality I am talking about. The we are better than you mentality, should stay with the Java and .NET people. The subject is a LOGO (abbreviation of LOGOTYPE or LOGOGRAM (a symbol designed to represent an object, concept, or attitude in simple graphic form, as found in road signs, advertising, and so on)) -- OED, paraphrased slightly. Historically, some company symbols have been very complex. Some have used mathematical symbols: many Prolog people will recognise ⊢≣⊨, for example, even though none of those symbols is actually used in the language. Egyptian hieroglyphs are clearly recognisable pictures. A Haskell hieroglyph could, for example, be turmeric roots arranged to form a lambda. But wait! Folks afraid of unknown operators will be put off by lambdas. To acknowledge that such people *exist* is IN NO WAY to make any claim of superiority. They may be vastly better than us as moral beings, as speakers of many human languages, as singers, in their good looks, in their capacity as parents, in any way you like. The only claim of superiority that can be sustained or even implied is that Haskell programmers are happier with a mathematical approach to programming than say Visual Basic programmers. (I have been known to tell a classroom of students that there are problems for which VB is the right answer, and I was hopping mad when M$oft yanked VBA out of Office for MacOS.) I actually liked the ⋋= logo when I first saw it; and it wasn't until I saw the version with the different shading in the lambda that I realised that it was lambda on top of =. So I can fairly claim to have experienced it in much the same way as someone who had never heard of Haskell before. I liked the look of it, AND I didn't realise that it was a Haskell operator at all. (That's ASCII art for you...) If you know Haskell and you see this logo, it will recall Haskell to you. If you don't know Haskell and you see this logo, it will not suggest anything to you, least of all superiority, BUT it is visually distinctive and memorable. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Hi Andrew, Andrew Coppin wrote: Technical terms are only useful to those who already know what they mean, after all. All terms, whether technical or not, are only useful to those who already know what they mean. So if you want to learn new concepts, then you have to learn new terms. All terms are more or less arbitrarily chosen. I don't see why it should be substantially harder to learn arbitrarily chosen greek terms then to learn arbitrarily chosen english terms. (We don't talk about single-valued total relations, we talk about functions. Because nobody knows what the heck a single-valued total relation is, but most people immediately get what a funtion is.) I strongly disagree for three reasons. First, function as we use it in programming is clearly a technical term, which has to be learned by beginners. Second, function in Haskell means something else as function in, e.g., Java. Third, function is in fact a highly ambiguous technical term, meaning something else in almost every area. In my work, I use at least the following meanings of function: * a special kind of relation * the purpose or utility of a component in a system * a subroutine in a computer program * the role of a person in an organization * the fact that something is working * a symbol in a signature * one feature of a system which offers several I think function is actually an excellent example of an obscure technical term which is hard to understand, which origins from mathematics, which has to be mastered in order to understand Haskell, and which often causes problems for beginners. Therefore, I'm confused why you argue *against* such terms in general, but *for* the term function. I tend to feel confronted by terms which I happen not yet to understand, while taking the terms I already understand for granted. However, I try to remind myself not to be stunned by mere words, but instead learn about the concepts and their names which are new to me, and teach others some of the concepts and their names which I already know. There is just no point in complaining that one doesn't understand something, and so much more in learning and teaching. Tillmann ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 18 Dec 2008, at 11:26 am, Andrew Coppin wrote: (Also, coroutines? Seriously? That's hardly an obscure term in programming circles.) Well now, I'm curios. I've been writing computer programs since I was 9 years old. I hold a diploma *and* an honours degree in computer science. And I have never even *heard* of a coroutine. To this day I still don't know what it means. I rather suspect I'm not the only programmer on earth who finds themselves in this position. ;-) Shame on you for not reading Knuth's The Art of Computer Programming, Volume 1, Fundamental Algorithms. The then available three volumes of TAOCP were named among the best twelve physical-science monographs of the century by American Scientist at the end of 1999. (Fasicles 0, 2, 3, and 4 of volume 4 are now available, and parts of fasicle 1 are on-line. Hooray hooray!) Quoting the first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry: In computer science, coroutines are program components that generalize subroutines to allow multiple entry points for suspending and resuming of execution at certain locations. Coroutines are well- suited for implementing more familiar program components such as cooperative tasks, iterators, infinite lists and pipes. The term coroutine was originated by Melvin Conway in his seminal 1963 paper.[1] So coroutine has been standard hacker-type programming terminology since 1963. I was able to use coroutines in Burroughs Extended Algol (designed in the mid to late 60s), Simula 67, and Interlisp-D (80s). Current languages supporting them include (thanks, Wikipedia) Lua, Limbo, JavaScript, Python, and Ruby. Since anything with continuations can do coroutines, we add Scheme and SML/NJ. Sather's iterators may be a more familiar form of coroutine. You will commonly find something like a yield e statement that reports the value of e to the caller without actually returning, and resume c that resumes a coroutine to get the next value. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
jagrhask пишет: What do you think about this logo? I'm not a good painter but just to illustrate idea: lazy lambda taking rest laying under tree and some blinks symbolize how is it. Of course symbolize how clean is it. I hope somebody could draw it better. Don Stewart пишет: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? A new year, and a new mature logo... -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Sorry to disappoint you, but the tree is not the very first thing that comes to mind when you look at this drawing. And, despite that it satisfies Don's condition to be mature (though adult would be a better word), this kind of pornography is NOT, I believe, what most of us want for a Haskell logo. On 16 Dec 2008, at 10:52, jagrhask wrote: What do you think about this logo? I'm not a good painter but just to illustrate idea: lazy lambda taking rest laying under tree and some blinks symbolize how is it. I hope somebody could draw it better. Don Stewart пишет: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? A new year, and a new mature logo... -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe lambda1.jpg___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Miguel Mitrofanov пишет: Sorry to disappoint you, but the tree is not the very first thing that comes to mind when you look at this drawing. And, despite that it satisfies As I already said, I'm not good in drawing, so if somthing bad comes to your mind looking at this tree - just draw it so that it would look like real tree. I'm not a designer I've just wanted to illustrate my idea for sombody who could draw it properly. Don's condition to be mature (though adult would be a better word), this kind of pornography is NOT, I believe, what most of us want for a Haskell logo. If somebody want to find pornography, he'll find it even in blank list. BTW. I would like to know what you found in this sketch (please let me know in private message, to not be sued for prnography distribution :) ). On 16 Dec 2008, at 10:52, jagrhask wrote: What do you think about this logo? I'm not a good painter but just to illustrate idea: lazy lambda taking rest laying under tree and some blinks symbolize how is it. I hope somebody could draw it better. Don Stewart пишет: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? A new year, and a new mature logo... -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe lambda1.jpg___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
It does require a mathematical mind, but does not require that you understand the mathematical language. If mathematics are the basis of computation, and programming is an implementation of computation, then in many ways programming languages are a (less powerful) equivalent language to the language of mathematics as applied to computation. I've been professionally programming for many years, and did it as a hobby since I was very young. I'm not going to say that I'm some kind of super programmer or anything, but I have had a decent amount of programming experience in a variety of languages. That said, Haskell vexed and threw me off for a couple years before I finally sat down and tried to pull aside the curtain of mathematics terms that were (for me) obscuring how to use Haskell. Once I sat down with a ton of examples and just plodded through a bunch of research papers (it seems like all the fun features in Haskell are only described in research papers ;-) ) I saw how what I knew from the other programming languages I knew was doable in Haskell and it increased my understanding, where I can now kind-of maybe understand what those papers are talking about by relating it to how the compiler will implement the code. Of course, now that I get it, Haskell is my favorite compiled language hands-down. It was just a much longer steeper learning curve because I had to learn it and the terms used to describe it simultaneously rather than having a leg up on either from knowing other programming languages. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think that the goal with a language should necessarily be to attract as many people as possible, but don't you feel bad for those poor sots who don't understand how bad off the mainstream of Java, C++, etc is? ;-) Just my 2 cents as a non-math-learned programmer. -Ross On Dec 16, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Malcolm Wallace wrote: Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: To him, apparently, the current logo says Haskell is all about arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think that complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo full of it. If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to learn this language. I think he got the right idea (kind of). To him, mathematics is arcane, but to Haskellers it is the fundamental basis of computation. If someone is not prepared to invest in learning the foundations of the subject of Computer Science, then they have no business becoming a programmer. Would you want someone who disdains mathematics to be responsible for designing the physical aerodynamics of aircraft? Then why would you permit them to program the control software that will fly it? We really must get away from the idea that programming is something any old fool should be able to pick up. Programming correct software is hard, and it requires a mathematical mind. Regards, Malcolm ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Obviously there are a lot of different wills in this discussion, and I propose we take this to the next level by letting people submit all their ideas to the Haskell wiki page, and vote later on. /Gf On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:52 AM, jagrhask jagrh...@gmail.com wrote: Miguel Mitrofanov пишет: Sorry to disappoint you, but the tree is not the very first thing that comes to mind when you look at this drawing. And, despite that it satisfies As I already said, I'm not good in drawing, so if somthing bad comes to your mind looking at this tree - just draw it so that it would look like real tree. I'm not a designer I've just wanted to illustrate my idea for sombody who could draw it properly. Don's condition to be mature (though adult would be a better word), this kind of pornography is NOT, I believe, what most of us want for a Haskell logo. If somebody want to find pornography, he'll find it even in blank list. BTW. I would like to know what you found in this sketch (please let me know in private message, to not be sued for prnography distribution :) ). On 16 Dec 2008, at 10:52, jagrhask wrote: What do you think about this logo? I'm not a good painter but just to illustrate idea: lazy lambda taking rest laying under tree and some blinks symbolize how is it. I hope somebody could draw it better. Don Stewart пишет: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? A new year, and a new mature logo... -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe lambda1.jpg___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Patience is the last resort for those unable to take action ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
We could take the HL2 logo and replace the 2 with 6. I'm sure there's some trademark issue here, but i like the idea. /jve On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Michael Giagnocavo m...@giagnocavo.netwrote: Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. While lambda in a circle is quite powerful, it's also quite similar to the logo for the rather popular game Half-Life (especially if orange is used). I'm not sure if this is relevant. http://images.google.com/images?q=half+life+logo -Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe attachment: hl2.png___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
My $0.02 us: Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this: \\ \\ \\ \\ \| \\ \\ --- \\ \\ // / \ // / \ \| // / /\\ --- // / / \\ -- Darrin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote: To him, apparently, the current logo says Haskell is all about arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think that complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo full of it. If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to learn this language. I think he got the right idea (kind of). To him, mathematics is arcane, but to Haskellers it is the fundamental basis of computation. If someone is not prepared to invest in learning the foundations of the subject of Computer Science, then they have no business becoming a programmer. Would you want someone who disdains mathematics to be responsible for designing the physical aerodynamics of aircraft? Then why would you permit them to program the control software that will fly it? We really must get away from the idea that programming is something any old fool should be able to pick up. Programming correct software is hard, and it requires a mathematical mind. Regards, Malcolm ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Malcolm Wallace wrote:
Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote:
To him, apparently, the current logo says Haskell is all
about arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think
that complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo full
of it. If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to learn
this language.
I think he got the right idea (kind of). To him, mathematics is arcane,
but to Haskellers it is the fundamental basis of computation. If
someone is not prepared to invest in learning the foundations of the
subject of Computer Science, then they have no business becoming a
programmer.
We really must get away from the idea that programming is something any
old fool should be able to pick up. Programming correct software is
hard, and it requires a mathematical mind.
I think the accusation is more that Haskell tries to be cryptic and
arcane *on purpose*, just to confuse people.
Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found
anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think
up some less intimidating terminology?
{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
But then, I guess that's what you get for a lanuage designed by a
committee of university professors. ;-)
At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
only theoretical physicists need apply...
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 20:23 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
Malcolm Wallace wrote:
Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com wrote:
To him, apparently, the current logo says Haskell is all
about arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think
that complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo full
of it. If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to learn
this language.
I think he got the right idea (kind of). To him, mathematics is arcane,
but to Haskellers it is the fundamental basis of computation. If
someone is not prepared to invest in learning the foundations of the
subject of Computer Science, then they have no business becoming a
programmer.
We really must get away from the idea that programming is something any
old fool should be able to pick up. Programming correct software is
hard, and it requires a mathematical mind.
I think the accusation is more that Haskell tries to be cryptic and
arcane *on purpose*, just to confuse people.
Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found
anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think
up some less intimidating terminology?
If we thought up that terminology, that would be a legitimate complaint.
But we didn't; we're just trying to honor our fore-bearers by using
their terminology and crediting them when we use their ideas.
{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
No, it's cute. Repulsively so.
But then, I guess that's what you get for a lanuage designed by a
committee of university professors. ;-)
At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
only theoretical physicists need apply...
I'd like to hold out, again, for the idea that we get a higher-quality
community by promoting that notion.
jcc
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 15 Dec 2008, at 2:57 pm, Eelco Lempsink wrote: haskell-logo.png By the way, the font used (Kautiva) is not free. That's fine, I wouldn't take it as a gift. It looks horrible. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Darrin Thompson darri...@gmail.comwrote: My $0.02 us: Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this: \\ \\ \\ \\ \| \\ \\ --- \\ \\ // / \ // / \ \| // / /\\ --- // / / \\ -- Darrin I really like this idea. It incorporates two important ideas and is simple enough to look good at different sizes; plus, it doesn't look like the Half-life logo. My biggest concern is that to someone not already familiar with Haskell syntax, it might be confusing. (That may or may not be an actual problem.) Nathan Bloomfield ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 16 Dec 2008, at 1:24 am, Álvaro Vilanova Vidal wrote: One more concept. haskell_infinitylambda_logo.svg haskell_infinitylambda.svghaskell_infinitylambda.png The hybrid lambda/infinity sign looks more like a bra advertisement and the lettering is unpleasant. For one thing, the language is called Haskell, so a logo should not call it haskell. (The language cares very much about case, after all.) Admittedly lambda signifies functions to us, but there are probably more people who know what A - B means than who know what lambda means. Arguably Haskell → → → → conveys something of the language (we do write f :: a - b - c - d - e for a multiparameter function) and also suggests something dynamic and forward-looking. Indeed, the multiple arrows even suggest concurrency, which is true. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo? - Haskell logo as a stamp!
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Henning Thielemann wrote: On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Don Stewart wrote: And anyone who does a version, place put it on the wiki. It'll be lost if you only post to the list. I propose we gather submissions and vote on the best for a new logo in 2009. Whatever logo someone prefers: I have written a program using HPDF which creates stamps for the German post (see http://www.internetmarke.de/) with custom images: http://code.haskell.org/~thielema/internetmarke/ Try it out now: http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/internetmarke ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Dec 16, 2008, at 17:40:27 GMT, Darrin Thompson wrote: My $0.02 us: Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this: I love this ASCII-art version. I tried to make a vector version of it in Photoshop, and I came up with this [1]. Any critiques/suggestions? I'm thinking about a second version that more obviously defines the second '' with color from the bottom-right part of the lambda. Jeff Wheeler [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 12:40 -0500, Darrin Thompson wrote: My $0.02 us: Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this: \\ \\ \\ \\ \| \\ \\ --- \\ \\ // / \ // / \ \| // / /\\ --- // / / \\ --- / / / \ / / / /\ \ / / --- / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ --- \ \ \ \ \ \/ / \ \ \/ --- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Dec 15, 2008, at 9:03 AM, Don Stewart wrote: And anyone who does a version, place put it on the wiki. It'll be lost if you only post to the list. I propose we gather submissions and vote on the best for a new logo in 2009. I'm a big fan of those posted by FalconNL. I showed the whole page to a professional graphic designer and brand strategist, and she thought that the Haskell ones were the best of the complete designs, by far, from a design standpoint. I'm not sure which of the three I like best, though. She also really liked the recent symbol inspired by Darrin Thompson's ASCII art. Some variant of FalconNL's original designs with that symbol in place of the might look nice. The symbol could also be used on its own, which is a plus. Finally, she much preferred Officina Sans over Fonce Sans. It's sad that there are so few good free fonts to choose from, but I'd say it's better to go for the one that looks good. It can be embedded into a vector graphic. Aaron ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 15 Dec 2008, at 03:27, Don Stewart wrote: Could you attach it to the web page, http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas I've stuck a contender up there too. Bob ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 15 dec 2008, at 03:31, Derek Elkins wrote: On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 02:57 +0100, Eelco Lempsink wrote: I'm not a graphic designer, but that doesn't prevent me giving a try. By the way, the font used (Kautiva) is not free. You might recognize it from Tupil's logo ;) Someone would pay for that font? It literally hurts my eyes. Oh, I'm terribly sorry, I didn't mean to cause any harm. To sooth your eyes, I created another variation, which also features a tagline that, in my opinion, captures more closely the gist of the impression Haskell makes on most programmers. inline: haskell-logo-funny.png This one is dedicated to you, Derek. Good luck with your eyes. -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Something incorporating λ∀ perhaps martin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Call me conservative, but I like the current logo more than the new suggestions. Why isn't it shown big on the welcome page of haskell.org? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Looks, good, actually among the top of the ones I like, should we not have some kind of voting mechanism for selecting a logo? And also some kind of last date for when entries are accepted.. Of course this requires a call for logos and so forth. 2008/12/15 Jeff Heard jefferson.r.he...@gmail.com: My entry... 2008/12/15 Martin DeMello martindeme...@gmail.com: Something incorporating λ∀ perhaps martin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Patience is the last resort for those unable to take action ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
So far this one is still the best, although the kerning between the s and the k seems off, so that would need fixing first. In terms of slogan purely functional, lazy with class, or lazy. pure. functional. look ok. The rest, not so much. 2008/12/14 Don Stewart d...@galois.com: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? A new year, and a new mature logo... -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Push the envelope. Watch it bend. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
One more concept. attachment: haskell_infinitylambda_logo.svgattachment: haskell_infinitylambda.svgattachment: haskell_infinitylambda.png___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
And anyone who does a version, place put it on the wiki. It'll be lost if you only post to the list. I propose we gather submissions and vote on the best for a new logo in 2009. -- Don nominolo: So far this one is still the best, although the kerning between the s and the k seems off, so that would need fixing first. In terms of slogan purely functional, lazy with class, or lazy. pure. functional. look ok. The rest, not so much. 2008/12/14 Don Stewart d...@galois.com: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? A new year, and a new mature logo... -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Push the envelope. Watch it bend. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 15 Dec 2008, at 12:43, Henning Thielemann wrote: On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Call me conservative, but I like the current logo more than the new suggestions. Why isn't it shown big on the welcome page of haskell.org? Are you referring to this logo? inline: Haskell.png In which case, it is shown on Haskell.org, unless there's another logo that I don't know about? Personally, this logo I find cluttered, and complicated, which I suspect conveys something to people thinking about using Haskell. Bob___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo? - Haskell logo as a stamp!
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Don Stewart wrote: And anyone who does a version, place put it on the wiki. It'll be lost if you only post to the list. I propose we gather submissions and vote on the best for a new logo in 2009. Whatever logo someone prefers: I have written a program using HPDF which creates stamps for the German post (see http://www.internetmarke.de/) with custom images: http://code.haskell.org/~thielema/internetmarke/ It needs a bit generalization, though, and will then be uploaded to Hackage, of course. So a dedicated Haskell stamp is close to German Haskell users! ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
If there is someone interested in playing around with the logo Don posted, I made a gimp-version out of it. http://frosch03.de/haskell/Haskell.xcf http://frosch03.de/haskell/Haskell.png -- Matthias ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Could you upload it to the logo contest page: http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas jefferson.r.heard: My entry... 2008/12/15 Martin DeMello martindeme...@gmail.com: Something incorporating λ∀ perhaps martin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? A new year, and a new mature logo... Well overdue, IMHO. I showed the current logo to Mr C++ (who, obviously, is slightly biased). To him, apparently, the current logo says Haskell is all about arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think that complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo full of it. If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to learn this language. Obviously, that's a rather negative image to be projecting. And obviously, his opinion is biased. To me, the logo just looks a) rather cluttered, and b) home-made. It doesn't have that professional glitter to it. (I have no idea how to fix that though - maybe ask a professional??) I see lots of people posting various logos, but they all seem to consist essentially of a lambda and the word Haskell. I guess it depends on what you want from a logo. Is our logo going to be just a lambda symbol in a specific typeface with specific colours? Or do we want something more particular? (Looking at what other languages have... well Ruby has a gemstone. Duh. And Python has two snakes nicely stylised. Oh well!) But yeah, certainly I think having a neat T-shirt to wear would be fun! (Note that the lambda was the symbol for the LGBT folks though!) (Actually, just noticing... Ruby's front page says Hello World is trivial - here it is! We can do that too, eh?) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
RE: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. While lambda in a circle is quite powerful, it's also quite similar to the logo for the rather popular game Half-Life (especially if orange is used). I'm not sure if this is relevant. http://images.google.com/images?q=half+life+logo -Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
mgg: Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. While lambda in a circle is quite powerful, it's also quite similar to the logo for the rather popular game Half-Life (especially if orange is used). I'm not sure if this is relevant. http://images.google.com/images?q=half+life+logo Haskell and Scheme have been using lambda in a circle for 20+ years, also... -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Alvaro's infinity lambda is awesome! The fancy treatments -- shadows, reflections, and the funny haskell font can all go, but the infinity lambda is distinctive, conceptually clear, and conveys the notion that we're not just the lambda calculus, but the lambda calculus to the power of our type system. Speaking of which, maybe the lambda cube could be the basis for a logo? --S ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 18:25 -0500, Sterling Clover wrote: Alvaro's infinity lambda is awesome! The fancy treatments -- shadows, reflections, and the funny haskell font can all go, but the infinity lambda is distinctive, conceptually clear, and conveys the notion that we're not just the lambda calculus, but the lambda calculus to the power of our type system. Speaking of which, maybe the lambda cube could be the basis for a logo? Haskell sits in the middle of one of the faces of the lambda cube, possibly even a bit in the volume, though I don't think so. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
okay, I want a t-shirt like this (but with all the greek letters and formatting) back: \t. 2^-t kg is equally[or: sometimes] bothered by math front: \gbtq is [sometimes] bothered by acronyms :-) or, sometimes likes each of them :-) -Isaac ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? A new year, and a new mature logo... -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 10:15 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. I like it. I prefer the thick lambda over the script one and the circle provides nice framing. I'm no graphics designer though. Cheers, Johan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
? attachment: cover.jpg signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
http://i35.tinypic.com/mjon83.png used this: http://www.simwebsol.com/ImageTool/Default.aspx 2008/12/14 George Pollard por...@porg.es: ? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png I'd buy one, but I'm not seeing it on spreadshirt.net. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
brianchina60221: On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png I'd buy one, but I'm not seeing it on spreadshirt.net. http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Merchandise ? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
Don Stewart d...@galois.com writes: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Nice. For some more hubris, replace 'A' with 'The'. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
ketil: Don Stewart d...@galois.com writes: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Nice. For some more hubris, replace 'A' with 'The'. I had the very same thought :) Stamp it home. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 2008 Dec 14, at 16:50, sam lee wrote: http://i35.tinypic.com/mjon83.png used this: http://www.simwebsol.com/ImageTool/Default.aspx Win from the visually interesting angle, but massive lose from the legibility angle. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: ketil: Nice. For some more hubris, replace 'A' with 'The'. I had the very same thought :) It certainly wouldn't do to let, say, the existence of Concurrent Clean get in the way of our self-promotion. /g -- I am in here ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On 14 dec 2008, at 22:15, Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? I'm not a graphic designer, but that doesn't prevent me giving a try. inline: haskell-logo.png (Transparant PNG, for best results view on a white background.) By the way, the font used (Kautiva) is not free. You might recognize it from Tupil's logo ;) -- Regards, Eelco Lempsink PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
eelco: On 14 dec 2008, at 22:15, Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? I'm not a graphic designer, but that doesn't prevent me giving a try. (Transparant PNG, for best results view on a white background.) By the way, the font used (Kautiva) is not free. You might recognize it from Tupil's logo ;) Could you attach it to the web page, http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 02:57 +0100, Eelco Lempsink wrote: On 14 dec 2008, at 22:15, Don Stewart wrote: I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today, http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png Simple, clean and *pure*. Instead of the we got lots going on of the current logo. Any graphic designers want to try some variations on this theme of purity? I'm not a graphic designer, but that doesn't prevent me giving a try. (Transparant PNG, for best results view on a white background.) By the way, the font used (Kautiva) is not free. You might recognize it from Tupil's logo ;) Someone would pay for that font? It literally hurts my eyes. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
I like the proposed logo even more now that you've pointed out the similarity. :-) -Corey O'Connor 2008/12/14 George Pollard por...@porg.es: ? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Could you attach it to the web page, http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas I tossed up a quickie candidate there as well. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Time for a new logo?
J. Garrett Morris jgmor...@cecs.pdx.edu writes: Nice. For some more hubris, replace 'A' with 'The'. I had the very same thought :) It certainly wouldn't do to let, say, the existence of Concurrent Clean get in the way of our self-promotion. Well, they get to make T-shirts with Clean - the /other/ purely functional language. Seriously though - thet text can be interpreted as Haskell, the purely functional language to distinguish it from Haskell, the county in Texas, or Haskell, the Indian Nations Universityor for that matter Haskell, the logician. To avoid any hard feelings, I suggest either putting Haskell the logician (with a picture of same) on the back of the shirt, or replacing the text with just purely functional or similar. At any rate, A is to weak, and suggests just one of the crowd. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
