Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Krzysztof Skrzętnicki]

There are quite a few people with working Haskell knowledge in Wroclaw. I'm
sure many of my colleagues (from University of Wroclaw:
http://www.ii.uni.wroc.pl/ )
know Haskell and I think would enjoy working with it.

All best

Christopher Skrzętnicki

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 23:31, Bartosz Wójcik  wrote:

> On Monday 19 January 2009 23:26:09 Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote:
> > We (Credit Suisse) have Haskell developers in both London and NY,
> > although the page only listed NY (I've now corrected it).
>
> If CS had Haskell positions in Wroclaw, Poland I'd apply for it!
> Best,
> Bartek
>
>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Bartosz Wójcik]

On Monday 19 January 2009 23:26:09 Sittampalam, Ganesh wrote:
> We (Credit Suisse) have Haskell developers in both London and NY,
> although the page only listed NY (I've now corrected it).

If CS had Haskell positions in Wroclaw, Poland I'd apply for it!
Best,
Bartek


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Brent Yorgey]

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 04:57:56PM -0800, Jonathan Cast wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 19:14 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> > Jonathan Cast wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2009-01-19 at 21:04 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> 
> > >> I mean, heck, *I* use Haskell at work - and I'm not even supposed to be 
> > >> coding things!
> 
> > > /me feels slightly relieved, if you'll forgive my saying so :)
> 
> > Damn... I didn't think I was *that* bad at using Haskell? o_O
> 
> You have expressed continued bafflement on any number of subjects that
> have been repeatedly explained to you, so yes.

I call Andrew's bluff.  The continued bafflement is just to get
attention.  He's probably not "*that* bad at using Haskell". =)

-Brent
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[George Pollard]

On Fri, 2009-01-23 at 16:19 +1100, Toby Hutton wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jonathan Cast
>  wrote:
> >
> > Not really.  My company *advertises* for Haskell developers, and then
> > when they come in to interview, informs them that the code base is
> > actually written in Perl.  Works, too --- we have several Haskellers
> > working here.  If all you care about is the quality of the developers,
> > and not their productivity once you've got them, you don't actually
need
> > to let them use Haskell after the interview is over...
>
> I saw this trick recently for a job advertised locally to me, in
> Melbourne.  I was initially pretty excited that someone in this city
> was actually advertising for Haskell programmers, until I realised
> they needed to be good at Javascript and Perl so they could work on
> their web apps.  Argh, I didn't bother applying.

I think I saw the same advertisement; unfortunately it was on a joint
Australasian website so I was in the wrong country anyway :)

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Toby Hutton]

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jonathan Cast
 wrote:
>
> Not really.  My company *advertises* for Haskell developers, and then
> when they come in to interview, informs them that the code base is
> actually written in Perl.  Works, too --- we have several Haskellers
> working here.  If all you care about is the quality of the developers,
> and not their productivity once you've got them, you don't actually need
> to let them use Haskell after the interview is over...

I saw this trick recently for a job advertised locally to me, in
Melbourne.  I was initially pretty excited that someone in this city
was actually advertising for Haskell programmers, until I realised
they needed to be good at Javascript and Perl so they could work on
their web apps.  Argh, I didn't bother applying.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Jonathan Cast]

On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 20:02 -0500, Andrew Wagner wrote:
> That's..evil

I know.  I'm evil too, though.  So it's cool.

jcc


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Andrew Wagner]

That's..evil

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Jonathan Cast wrote:

> On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 21:01 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> > Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > So next time I hear the "you can't get the programmers" line I'm going
> > > to respond with something like this:
> > >
> > >"If you post an advert for a Haskell developer you will get 20
> > >applicants.  All of those people will be the kind of developer who
> > >learns new programming languages to improve their own abilities and
> > >stretch themselves, because nobody yet learns Haskell just to get a
> > > job.
> > >
> > >"If you post an advert for a Java developer you will get 200
> > >applicants.  Most of them will be the kind of developer who learned
> > >Java because there are lots of Java jobs out there, and as long as
> > >they know enough to hold down a job then they see no reason to learn
> > >anything."
> >
> > If this isn't an "elevator pitch" for using Haskell then I don't know
> > what the hell *is*!
> >
> > Seriously, this is a pretty damned persuasive argument...
>
> Not really.  My company *advertises* for Haskell developers, and then
> when they come in to interview, informs them that the code base is
> actually written in Perl.  Works, too --- we have several Haskellers
> working here.  If all you care about is the quality of the developers,
> and not their productivity once you've got them, you don't actually need
> to let them use Haskell after the interview is over...
>
> jcc
>
>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Jonathan Cast]

On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 19:14 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Jonathan Cast wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-01-19 at 21:04 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:

> >> I mean, heck, *I* use Haskell at work - and I'm not even supposed to be 
> >> coding things!

> > /me feels slightly relieved, if you'll forgive my saying so :)

> Damn... I didn't think I was *that* bad at using Haskell? o_O

You have expressed continued bafflement on any number of subjects that
have been repeatedly explained to you, so yes.

> > Also, if you don't mind my asking, what *is* your job title?

> Technically, "system administrator". An equally valid description might 
> be "the whole computer department".

> But in reality, my job involves swapping the backup tapes each day, and 
> rebooting people's computers when Word crashes. Obviously, I'd like to 
> be doing something a *tad* more interesting. (Not to mention better 
> paid...!)

Ah, you poor thing.  No *wonder* you're driven to coding!

jcc


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Jonathan Cast]

On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 21:01 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > So next time I hear the "you can't get the programmers" line I'm going 
> > to respond with something like this:
> >
> >"If you post an advert for a Haskell developer you will get 20
> >applicants.  All of those people will be the kind of developer who
> >learns new programming languages to improve their own abilities and
> >stretch themselves, because nobody yet learns Haskell just to get a 
> > job.
> >
> >"If you post an advert for a Java developer you will get 200
> >applicants.  Most of them will be the kind of developer who learned
> >Java because there are lots of Java jobs out there, and as long as
> >they know enough to hold down a job then they see no reason to learn
> >anything."
> 
> If this isn't an "elevator pitch" for using Haskell then I don't know 
> what the hell *is*!
> 
> Seriously, this is a pretty damned persuasive argument...

Not really.  My company *advertises* for Haskell developers, and then
when they come in to interview, informs them that the code base is
actually written in Perl.  Works, too --- we have several Haskellers
working here.  If all you care about is the quality of the developers,
and not their productivity once you've got them, you don't actually need
to let them use Haskell after the interview is over...

jcc


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Andrew Coppin]

Paul Johnson wrote:
So next time I hear the "you can't get the programmers" line I'm going 
to respond with something like this:


   "If you post an advert for a Haskell developer you will get 20
   applicants.  All of those people will be the kind of developer who
   learns new programming languages to improve their own abilities and
   stretch themselves, because nobody yet learns Haskell just to get a 
job.


   "If you post an advert for a Java developer you will get 200
   applicants.  Most of them will be the kind of developer who learned
   Java because there are lots of Java jobs out there, and as long as
   they know enough to hold down a job then they see no reason to learn
   anything."


If this isn't an "elevator pitch" for using Haskell then I don't know 
what the hell *is*!


Seriously, this is a pretty damned persuasive argument...

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Andrew Coppin]

Jonathan Cast wrote:

On Mon, 2009-01-19 at 21:04 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
  
I mean, heck, *I* use Haskell at work - and I'm not even supposed to be 
coding things!



/me feels slightly relieved, if you'll forgive my saying so :)


Damn... I didn't think I was *that* bad at using Haskell? o_O


Also, if you don't mind my asking, what *is* your job title?
  


Technically, "system administrator". An equally valid description might 
be "the whole computer department".


But in reality, my job involves swapping the backup tapes each day, and 
rebooting people's computers when Word crashes. Obviously, I'd like to 
be doing something a *tad* more interesting. (Not to mention better 
paid...!)


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Lionel Barret De Nazaris]

That fits with our experience (gamr7).
We got 20 applicants, all of them very good.
L.

Paul Johnson wrote:

Tom Hawkins wrote:

 Such a database would help me counter by boss's
argument that "it's impossible to find and hire Haskell programmers."

  
There was a thread last week where someone asked who would be 
interested in a hypothetical Haskell job.  He got about 20 positive 
responses.  This agrees with the experience of Microsoft Research in 
2006 when they advertised for a third person to help with GHC 
development.   They also had about 20 applicants.


So next time I hear the "you can't get the programmers" line I'm going 
to respond with something like this:


   "If you post an advert for a Haskell developer you will get 20
   applicants.  All of those people will be the kind of developer who
   learns new programming languages to improve their own abilities and
   stretch themselves, because nobody yet learns Haskell just to get a 
job.


   "If you post an advert for a Java developer you will get 200
   applicants.  Most of them will be the kind of developer who learned
   Java because there are lots of Java jobs out there, and as long as
   they know enough to hold down a job then they see no reason to learn
   anything."

Paul.

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--
Best Regards,
lionel Barret de Nazaris,
Gamr7 Founder & CTO
=
Gamr7 : Cities for Games
http://www.gamr7.com




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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Creighton Hogg]

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> Tom Hawkins wrote:
>>
>>  Such a database would help me counter by boss's
>> argument that "it's impossible to find and hire Haskell programmers."
>>
>>
>
> There was a thread last week where someone asked who would be interested in
> a hypothetical Haskell job.  He got about 20 positive responses.  This
> agrees with the experience of Microsoft Research in 2006 when they
> advertised for a third person to help with GHC development.   They also had
> about 20 applicants.
>
> So next time I hear the "you can't get the programmers" line I'm going to
> respond with something like this:
>
>   "If you post an advert for a Haskell developer you will get 20
>   applicants.  All of those people will be the kind of developer who
>   learns new programming languages to improve their own abilities and
>   stretch themselves, because nobody yet learns Haskell just to get a job.
>
>   "If you post an advert for a Java developer you will get 200
>   applicants.  Most of them will be the kind of developer who learned
>   Java because there are lots of Java jobs out there, and as long as
>   they know enough to hold down a job then they see no reason to learn
>   anything."

Also, as an employee, I have to admit that any company that can say it
uses Haskell for even part of its codebase immediately goes up in my
esteem & puts it on the shortlist for where to send my resume.  The
same way that programmers knowing Haskell implies a certain interest
in CS beyond "I want ma money", an employer using Haskell implies
technically interesting software & a stronger commitment to quality
over expediency.
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Paul Johnson]

Tom Hawkins wrote:

 Such a database would help me counter by boss's
argument that "it's impossible to find and hire Haskell programmers."

  
There was a thread last week where someone asked who would be interested 
in a hypothetical Haskell job.  He got about 20 positive responses.  
This agrees with the experience of Microsoft Research in 2006 when they 
advertised for a third person to help with GHC development.   They also 
had about 20 applicants.


So next time I hear the "you can't get the programmers" line I'm going 
to respond with something like this:


   "If you post an advert for a Haskell developer you will get 20
   applicants.  All of those people will be the kind of developer who
   learns new programming languages to improve their own abilities and
   stretch themselves, because nobody yet learns Haskell just to get a job.

   "If you post an advert for a Java developer you will get 200
   applicants.  Most of them will be the kind of developer who learned
   Java because there are lots of Java jobs out there, and as long as
   they know enough to hold down a job then they see no reason to learn
   anything."

Paul.

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Jason Dusek]

  At my former employer, I wrote a couple of internal tools in
  Haskell that shipped to Linux, OS X and Windows. The relative
  ease of binary preparation was a selling point of Haskell.

--
Jason Dusek
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Andrew Wagner]

> Such a database would help me counter by boss's
> argument that "it's impossible to find and hire Haskell programmers."
>

Err, people actually say such things? And they say _we're_ out of touch with
the real world?
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Tom Hawkins]

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Andrew Coppin
 wrote:
>
> Like many people I'm sure, I'd like to get paid to code stuff in Haskell.
> But I can't begin to imagine how you go about doing that...

At Eaton, we're using Haskell to design automotive control systems
(see http://cufp.galois.com/).  In a 3 month span we went from 98K
lines of Simulink, Matlab, and VisualBasic to 4K lines of Haskell.
The system is now in vehicle testing and is going to production mid
this year.  In addition to tuning control laws and fault monitors,
other fun things we are using Haskell for is to integrate our
environment with an SMT solver for infinite state, bounded model
checking.

Unfortunately, due to economic conditions, all new openings have been
temporarily put on hold.  However, we expect new reqs to open as soon
as conditions improve.  When this happens, it would be nice if we had
a single source to find qualified people.

Maybe the community should consider building a database to help people
who want to write Haskell for a living get in touch with employers who
want to hire them.  Such a database would help me counter by boss's
argument that "it's impossible to find and hire Haskell programmers."

-Tom
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Thomas DuBuisson]

> Hmm, interesting... So lots happening in Portland, Oregon. Lots in
> Cambridge, MA. A few things in Europe. And nothing at all in the UK...

Nothing in the UK?  Lets not forget MSR and Well-Typed!
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Jonathan Cast]

On Mon, 2009-01-19 at 21:04 +, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
> > Its proabably a little harder to find a company that wants a
> > Haskell hacker than  it is to find a company where Haskell and
> > other sane languages can be worked  in over time.
> >   
> 
> I think you're probably right about that. ;-)
> 
> I mean, heck, *I* use Haskell at work - and I'm not even supposed to be 
> coding things!

/me feels slightly relieved, if you'll forgive my saying so :)  Also, if
you don't mind my asking, what *is* your job title?

jcc


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RE: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Sittampalam, Ganesh]

Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Andrew Wagner wrote:
>> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry could be of
>> interest to you
> 
> Hmm, interesting... So lots happening in Portland, Oregon. Lots in
> Cambridge, MA. A few things in Europe. And nothing at all in the
> UK...  

We (Credit Suisse) have Haskell developers in both London and NY,
although the page only listed NY (I've now corrected it).

Two other companies without locations listed - Barclays Capital and
Standard Chartered - also have at least some Haskell development in
the UK, and I think that's where Amgen's development is based too.

Ganesh

==
Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications 
disclaimer: 

http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html
==

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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Andrew Coppin]

Andrew Wagner wrote:
http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry could be of 
interest to you


Hmm, interesting... So lots happening in Portland, Oregon. Lots in 
Cambridge, MA. A few things in Europe. And nothing at all in the UK...


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Andrew Coppin]

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:

Its proabably a little harder to find a company that wants a
Haskell hacker than  it is to find a company where Haskell and
other sane languages can be worked  in over time.
  


I think you're probably right about that. ;-)

I mean, heck, *I* use Haskell at work - and I'm not even supposed to be 
coding things!


Like many people I'm sure, I'd like to get paid to code stuff in 
Haskell. But I can't begin to imagine how you go about doing that...


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[John Goerzen]

Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Is it possible to earn money using Haskell? Does anybody here actually 
> do this?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know... ;-)

I work for a company that designs, builds, and sells lawn mowers
(hustlerturf.com).  We use quite a bit of Haskell, especially as a "glue
language" for tying together data from different manufacturing-related
systems.  We also use it for some web apps that are deployed to our
dealer network.  There are also some uses for it doing sysadmin
automation, such as adding/removing people from LDAP servers and the like.

-- John
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Jeff Heard]

Haskell's all I use at work, although no-one requires it.  I know that
Ravi Nanavati's company uses Haskell pretty exclusively, and there's
also Galois and a couple of financial houses.  I was pretty impressed
with the professional turnout for ICFP 2008.

-- Jeff

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Andrew Coppin
 wrote:
> Is it possible to earn money using Haskell? Does anybody here actually do
> this?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know... ;-)
>
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Don Stewart]

And of course, there's at least half a dozen people on this list at
working at Galois.

And all documented on the wiki,

http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry

See you guys at CUFP 09!

http://cufp.galois.com/

-- Don

pbeadling:
> Barclays Capital use it for Equity Derivative modeling and pricing - it's a
> small team at the moment, but the whole project is in Haskell.
> 
> I don't work on it myself so I couldn't give you any details (plus I would
> get fired for blabbing!), I work in an adjacent group.  Haskell certainly
> lends itself to complex financial maths simulation tho, so I think they've
> made a good choice.
> 
> 
> On 19/01/2009 19:34, "Andrew Coppin"  wrote:
> 
> > Is it possible to earn money using Haskell? Does anybody here actually
> > do this?
> > 
> > Inquiring minds want to know... ;-)
> > 
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:

> Monad Reader  7 article helped). Fortunately my manager is a really
> bright byg, was open to new ideas and already trusted my judgement.

Ooops, typo. He's a "really bright guy".

Erik
-- 
-
Erik de Castro Lopo
-
"Hey, I've re-dorkulated." -- Prof. Frink (The Simpsons)
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

Andrew Coppin wrote:

> Is it possible to earn money using Haskell? Does anybody here actually 
> do this?

Its proabably a little harder to find a company that wants a
Haskell hacker than  it is to find a company where Haskell and
other sane languages can be worked  in over time.

I work for a small venture capital funded started. My early work
was all C and C++. However we did have problems where these two 
langauges were not a good fit (too much reinventing the wheel and
boilerplate required) and I made the case for Ocaml (Yaron  Minsky's
Monad Reader  7 article helped). Fortunately my manager is a really
bright byg, was open to new ideas and already trusted my judgement.

We now hae a number of vital components of our flagship product
written in Ocaml. I am currently learning Haskell and intend to
introduce that as well.

HTH,
Erik
-- 
-
Erik de Castro Lopo
-
"life is too long to be an expert at harmful things, including
such evilness as C++ and perl." -- Erik Naggum
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Phil]

Barclays Capital use it for Equity Derivative modeling and pricing - it's a
small team at the moment, but the whole project is in Haskell.

I don't work on it myself so I couldn't give you any details (plus I would
get fired for blabbing!), I work in an adjacent group.  Haskell certainly
lends itself to complex financial maths simulation tho, so I think they've
made a good choice.


On 19/01/2009 19:34, "Andrew Coppin"  wrote:

> Is it possible to earn money using Haskell? Does anybody here actually
> do this?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know... ;-)
> 
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[David Leimbach]

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Andrew Coppin  wrote:

> Is it possible to earn money using Haskell? Does anybody here actually do
> this?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know... ;-)
>

I'm using it at work in simulations... not shipping anything with it yet,
but we do ship Erlang :-)

Haskell may work it's way in eventually too.


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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Employment

[Andrew Wagner]

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry could be of interest
to you

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Andrew Coppin
wrote:

> Is it possible to earn money using Haskell? Does anybody here actually do
> this?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know... ;-)
>
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