Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
In case anyway was worried, I *have* been following this thread, and purposely not sticking my nose in to see what people's opinions are. I've really appreciated the discussion; let me give my overall response to everything: It's good to remember that a user can always add whatever information they want to their self-description. The main reason for the skills list is so that employers and anyone else seeking Haskellers can easily get a list of people. As such, the skills should be something informative that people really want to search for. I'm pretty convinced that Mathematics as-is is a bad idea. I can't imagine *anyone* saying I want a Haskeller who knows math (maths for you Brits), it just doesn't say anything. We also need to make things much more explicit. Cabal, packaging, build and distribution tools really doesn't explain whether it means I can tweak Cabal, or if I can write a cabal file, or if I can build something that's on Hackage. The breakdown John Lato gave (Cabal internals and Software packaging/distribution tools) sounds good to me. On this one you may call be biased, but I think keeping Happstack and Yesod on their own makes perfect sense. If I were an employer looking to hire someone to work on a project, I would be looking to see that they can use my tool of choice. Obviously we need to draw a line somewhere; putting up that you can use the failure package seems silly (I'm purposely picking on one of my own packages). But the web frameworks are entire ecosystems of their own, and I think it makes sense to keep them as-is. The issue of having to judge something in which I'm not an expert is definitely true. I don't have any experience with Attribute Grammar, for instance, and so feel ill-equipped to make a judgement on that. I'll trust the list on this, which seems to indicate leaving it in. I'll probably need to ask similar questions in the future. I also like the idea of dropping skills that everyone has. Algorithmic Problem Solving may very well fit in that category. Finally, the idea of a certification process is great. But I'm not going to do it ;). If I don't hear any major complaining in the next few hours, I'll implement what I've said above. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: On this one you may call be biased, but I think keeping Happstack and Yesod on their own makes perfect sense. If I were an employer looking to hire someone to work on a project, I would be looking to see that they can use my tool of choice. For the web development frameworks I think it makes sense to be able to specify which ones you are comfortable with. It also seems like it would make sense for them to be a sub-category of general web development. A large portion of web develop knowledge is portable from one framework to another. So, if you are hiring someone for a full-time position, the amount of time it would take for them to learn a different framework would be small in the big picture. But if you want to hire someone to do a few hours of work, then already knowing the framework could be critical. But, I am not sure if sub-categories make sense for other skills. So, adding that for sake of just one skill would be ugly. - jeremy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
OK, after reviewing the list again, here's some more that are on the chopping block, given the new outlook we've been establishing here. Speak up if you want it saved: Denotational design Programming using Arrows Transactional business applications development Categorical Programming On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: In case anyway was worried, I *have* been following this thread, and purposely not sticking my nose in to see what people's opinions are. I've really appreciated the discussion; let me give my overall response to everything: It's good to remember that a user can always add whatever information they want to their self-description. The main reason for the skills list is so that employers and anyone else seeking Haskellers can easily get a list of people. As such, the skills should be something informative that people really want to search for. I'm pretty convinced that Mathematics as-is is a bad idea. I can't imagine *anyone* saying I want a Haskeller who knows math (maths for you Brits), it just doesn't say anything. We also need to make things much more explicit. Cabal, packaging, build and distribution tools really doesn't explain whether it means I can tweak Cabal, or if I can write a cabal file, or if I can build something that's on Hackage. The breakdown John Lato gave (Cabal internals and Software packaging/distribution tools) sounds good to me. On this one you may call be biased, but I think keeping Happstack and Yesod on their own makes perfect sense. If I were an employer looking to hire someone to work on a project, I would be looking to see that they can use my tool of choice. Obviously we need to draw a line somewhere; putting up that you can use the failure package seems silly (I'm purposely picking on one of my own packages). But the web frameworks are entire ecosystems of their own, and I think it makes sense to keep them as-is. The issue of having to judge something in which I'm not an expert is definitely true. I don't have any experience with Attribute Grammar, for instance, and so feel ill-equipped to make a judgement on that. I'll trust the list on this, which seems to indicate leaving it in. I'll probably need to ask similar questions in the future. I also like the idea of dropping skills that everyone has. Algorithmic Problem Solving may very well fit in that category. Finally, the idea of a certification process is great. But I'm not going to do it ;). If I don't hear any major complaining in the next few hours, I'll implement what I've said above. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
My $.02 follows: From: Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com There's only two skills which I think absolutely must go: Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler tool building Agreed that both should go. There are 11 skills I'm leaning towards dropping, all because they fall in the too vague/too general category. Your input is requested on these. They are: Attribute Grammar Keep as Attribute Grammars Cabal, packaging, build and distribution tools This should be two categories: Cabal internals and Software packaging/distribution tools. Keep Cabal internals, possibly keep the other Categorical Programming Denotational design Digital Forensics keep Fault Tolerant Server Software Mathematics drop (possibly keep FTSS, maybe change the name) Programming using Arrows Possibly keep with a different name Proving observational equivalence between Haskell programs drop Transactional business applications development I'm not entirely sure what this means, specifically if it's business transactions or db/software transactions. UNIX Scripting and Tool Authoring keep as UNIX Scripting Of the remaining 32 skills, some of them fall in the too specific range just a bit (software transactional memory, property based testing), but I'm inclined to let it slide. These 32 are: Advanced type-level programming (GADTs, TypeFamilies, proofs, etc.) Algorithmic Problem Solving Bioinformatics Concurrent Haskell DSL Design Darcs internals Foreign Function Interface (FFI) Formal Verification Functional graphics programming (2D, 3D, GPU) GHC internals Generic Programming Graphical User Interfaces Happstack Web Framework Hardware Acceleration DSLs Haskell on embedded devices High Assurance Software Development High-performance Haskell Metaprogamming via Template Haskell Natural Language Processing (tagging, parsing, translation,...) Physics Simulation Programming language translation Property based testing (QuickCheck) Purely functional data structures — design and implementation Reverse Engineering Robotics and Automation Signal Processing Software Transactional Memory Teaching Haskell Web development (HTML, CSS and Javascript) Yesod Web Framework I would argue for keeping most of these. I do think that skills based on specific packages (Happstack, Yesod, STM?) perhaps should be dropped, except for packages that are integral to the Haskell universe (compilers, Cabal, Darcs?, QuickCheck?). For these packages, I think the -internals categories are the most useful. What about rolling Happstack, Yesod, etc. into Haskell Web Frameworks, and possibly also keeping the Web Development (HTML, CSS and Javascript) category? John ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On 20 October 2010 21:38, John Lato jwl...@gmail.com wrote: Cabal, packaging, build and distribution tools This should be two categories: Cabal internals and Software packaging/distribution tools. Keep Cabal internals, possibly keep the other What does Cabal internals refer to? Actually using Cabal as a library? Developing Cabal itself? Fault Tolerant Server Software Mathematics drop (possibly keep FTSS, maybe change the name) Why drop mathematics? (I'd prefer it to be split up, but mathematically-oriented programming is a large/important subset of Haskell skills IMHO, though I admit I'm biased). UNIX Scripting and Tool Authoring keep as UNIX Scripting What's wrong with Tool Authoring? To some, scripting implies quick+dirty temporary applications/scripts as opposed to a well-engineered tool. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On 20 October 2010 21:52, Henning Thielemann lemm...@henning-thielemann.de wrote: On Wed, 20 Oct 2010, John Lato wrote: Mathematics I'd be interested in how many Haskellers refer to Category Theory here, and how many to other mathematical subjects. :-) I for one refer to other stuff; my understanding of CT is almost non-existant. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 20 October 2010 21:38, John Lato jwl...@gmail.com wrote: Cabal, packaging, build and distribution tools This should be two categories: Cabal internals and Software packaging/distribution tools. Keep Cabal internals, possibly keep the other What does Cabal internals refer to? Actually using Cabal as a library? Developing Cabal itself? Developing Cabal itself. Fault Tolerant Server Software Mathematics drop (possibly keep FTSS, maybe change the name) Why drop mathematics? (I'd prefer it to be split up, but mathematically-oriented programming is a large/important subset of Haskell skills IMHO, though I admit I'm biased). Mathematics is far too broad to be useful. I agree that subsets of math would be informative (e.g. statistical modelling, linear algebra, graph theory, dif. eq., etc.), but how do you break up Mathematics and assign users who listed it as a skill to its constituent parts? UNIX Scripting and Tool Authoring keep as UNIX Scripting What's wrong with Tool Authoring? To some, scripting implies quick+dirty temporary applications/scripts as opposed to a well-engineered tool. Again, Tool Authoring is too broad to be useful. What else do software developers do but author tools? Contrast to UNIX Scripting, which means familiarity with at least a shell and likely one or more of awk, perl, python, regexes, ... I don't make quality judgements just from the term scripting, and I'd certainly rather use a well-engineered script over a quick+dirty tool. John ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On 20 October 2010 12:30, John Lato jwl...@gmail.com wrote: [SNIP] Again, Tool Authoring is too broad to be useful. Who are the skills lists for? Recruiters, other Haskellers to form strike forces, something else? For the recruiters I think they are somewhat obscure unless Well-Typed or Galois were searching. Trivia - I did once apply for a job that listed 'attribute grammars' as a requirement - as far as I could tell it was compiler development / maintenance for a special purpose chip, but I never heard back so I guess I missed the mark on the other skills. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: Algorithmic Problem Solving I think this needs to go, because I'm really having a hard time imagining any programmer who doesn't do this. High Assurance Software Development This sounds vague to me and/or the same as other skills (cf. Formal Verification). Again, I'm not sure how many people would describe their software as low assurance. Robotics and Automation Would be tempted to drop Automation from here. Web development (HTML, CSS and Javascript) I wonder if these parentheses are necessary, or if they hint at the fact that this isn't really one skill. I have a suspicion that being competent at website and stylesheet *design* (i.e. knowledge of good design principles and application to HTML/CSS) is an entirely different sort of thing from *implementation* in terms of JavaScript technologies like AJAX and JSON and who-knows-what. Overall, I think it would be nice to have a consistent idea about how concrete or abstract we allow skills to be, and as someone else mentioned what the target audience is for them. We have skills that relate to specific libraries and then skills that are nebulous and abstract. Maybe we could ask a narrower question, or have two fields: what can you use, and what interests you. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Ben Millwood hask...@benmachine.co.uk wrote: Robotics and Automation Would be tempted to drop Automation from here. That name was deliberately chosen, and is appropriate for people in the area, http://www.ieee-ras.org/ I have my own opinions on a lot of these tags, but haskell-cafe doesn't seem like the right forum for this polling. A difficulty is that while we may all be qualified to debate the merits of Mathematics as a discriminative label for programmers, some of these tags (such as the one above) are domain specific. We don't want people outside of an area of interest governing name choices that lessen the value of the tags. As a strawman for people to beat up on, what if each tag linked to a wiki description? Such a description could include a couple sentences of exposition, and perhaps links to relevant resources. Another alternate is that if a tag becomes *too* popular (i.e. more than x% of haskellers check it off), then perhaps there should be a poll to have it removed and its spirit embedded in the general site text. Tags like Algorithmic Problem Solving might fall into this category. Anthony ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
I just want to throw out 2 extreme case solutions to think about while this problem doesn't really seem to be heading anywhere: 1) Drop the skills options in favor of the simple text box already in use. This would of course would have a big impact on attempting to search for haskellers. 2) A formal Haskell certification system that would be of great use outside of haskellers.com too and recognized and trusted by employers all over the world. Java developers can certifiably in individual areas through thishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Certified_Professionalfor example. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On 10/20/10 9:12 AM, Anthony Cowley wrote: We don't want people outside of an area of interest governing name choices that lessen the value of the tags. To be honest, when the thread first came up, I was afraid NLP (or AG) would end up on the cutting block because of that... As a strawman for people to beat up on, what if each tag linked to a wiki description? Such a description could include a couple sentences of exposition, and perhaps links to relevant resources. +1. As an additional strawman, perhaps the I can use X (package, program, markup language,...) stuff should be broken out separately from the skills, just like package authorship is. There seems to be a tension here between resume-esque listing of every competence with some acronym-of-the-day, vs listing larger areas of overall knowledge (NLP, RA, mathematics,...) Another alternate is that if a tag becomes *too* popular (i.e. more than x% of haskellers check it off), then perhaps there should be a poll to have it removed and its spirit embedded in the general site text. Tags like Algorithmic Problem Solving might fall into this category. +1. Another option which may be interesting to pursue is to make the skills list hierarchical, so that when Algorithmic Problem Solving gets broken up into Foo, Bar, and Zot, we get the new skills listed as checkable subskills of uncheckable Algorithmic Problem Solving. ...Though that might just be delaying the garbage collection until later (witness Data.*). -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
2010/10/18 Andrew Coppin andrewcop...@btinternet.com: ...I thought *I* was the only person who's ever heard of Rexx? ... and thanks to you, I now know some people here have heard of Amiga :) David. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
Alright, adding skills is now only possible by an admin. In the place where we previously had add a skill, we now have request a new skill. That's the easy part. Now we need to determine which skills stay, and which ones go. I think the vast majority of them are fine, so I'll leave them at the end of this email. If anyone thinks I'm being to generous by allowing a specific still to say, just say so. There's only two skills which I think absolutely must go: Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler tool building There are 11 skills I'm leaning towards dropping, all because they fall in the too vague/too general category. Your input is requested on these. They are: Attribute Grammar Cabal, packaging, build and distribution tools Categorical Programming Denotational design Digital Forensics Fault Tolerant Server Software Mathematics Programming using Arrows Proving observational equivalence between Haskell programs Transactional business applications development UNIX Scripting and Tool Authoring Of the remaining 32 skills, some of them fall in the too specific range just a bit (software transactional memory, property based testing), but I'm inclined to let it slide. These 32 are: Advanced type-level programming (GADTs, TypeFamilies, proofs, etc.) Algorithmic Problem Solving Bioinformatics Concurrent Haskell DSL Design Darcs internals Foreign Function Interface (FFI) Formal Verification Functional graphics programming (2D, 3D, GPU) GHC internals Generic Programming Graphical User Interfaces Happstack Web Framework Hardware Acceleration DSLs Haskell on embedded devices High Assurance Software Development High-performance Haskell Metaprogamming via Template Haskell Natural Language Processing (tagging, parsing, translation,...) Physics Simulation Programming language translation Property based testing (QuickCheck) Purely functional data structures — design and implementation Reverse Engineering Robotics and Automation Signal Processing Software Transactional Memory Teaching Haskell Web development (HTML, CSS and Javascript) Yesod Web Framework Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
Hey JP, It's a tough question you're asking. I think areas directly applicable with Haskell, such as bioinformatics, games, physics simulations, are a pretty easy yes. Some more complicated things would be related skills, such as knowing other programming languages, system administration, etc. I would like to hear the cafe's opinion on that; my gut feeling is a yes is moderation. Having a web programming skill seems OK, but I wouldn't want to put in HTML5, Javascript, CSS 3 and so on as separate skills. Michael On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 3:45 PM, JP Moresmau jpmores...@gmail.com wrote: Are skills only Haskell related? I mean, are they only subcategories of haskell programming. Because bioinformatics is there, and in that case it shouldn't be. If skills include any application domain where people might use Haskell, the list will be much bigger, and surely the Hackage categories can be of use (for example, for me, I would request Games, Artificial Intelligence...). And, thanks for doing haskellers, great work! One day I want to really do a web application in Haskell and I'll sure give a go to yesod. JP On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: Alright, adding skills is now only possible by an admin. In the place where we previously had add a skill, we now have request a new skill. That's the easy part. Now we need to determine which skills stay, and which ones go. I think the vast majority of them are fine, so I'll leave them at the end of this email. If anyone thinks I'm being to generous by allowing a specific still to say, just say so. There's only two skills which I think absolutely must go: Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler tool building There are 11 skills I'm leaning towards dropping, all because they fall in the too vague/too general category. Your input is requested on these. They are: Attribute Grammar Cabal, packaging, build and distribution tools Categorical Programming Denotational design Digital Forensics Fault Tolerant Server Software Mathematics Programming using Arrows Proving observational equivalence between Haskell programs Transactional business applications development UNIX Scripting and Tool Authoring Of the remaining 32 skills, some of them fall in the too specific range just a bit (software transactional memory, property based testing), but I'm inclined to let it slide. These 32 are: Advanced type-level programming (GADTs, TypeFamilies, proofs, etc.) Algorithmic Problem Solving Bioinformatics Concurrent Haskell DSL Design Darcs internals Foreign Function Interface (FFI) Formal Verification Functional graphics programming (2D, 3D, GPU) GHC internals Generic Programming Graphical User Interfaces Happstack Web Framework Hardware Acceleration DSLs Haskell on embedded devices High Assurance Software Development High-performance Haskell Metaprogamming via Template Haskell Natural Language Processing (tagging, parsing, translation,...) Physics Simulation Programming language translation Property based testing (QuickCheck) Purely functional data structures — design and implementation Reverse Engineering Robotics and Automation Signal Processing Software Transactional Memory Teaching Haskell Web development (HTML, CSS and Javascript) Yesod Web Framework Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- JP Moresmau http://jpmoresmau.blogspot.com/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On 18/10/2010 09:59 PM, Magnus Therning wrote: On 18/10/10 21:56, Andrew Coppin wrote: ...I thought *I* was the only person who's ever heard of Rexx? Every amiga user is very likely to have heard of rexx, as a close relative to it was included in AmigaOS at some point. ...and I had of course assumed that I was the only person to have ever heard of the Amiga too. (Not that I suppose it matters 10 years later...) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 10/19/10 13:09 , Andrew Coppin wrote: On 18/10/2010 09:59 PM, Magnus Therning wrote: On 18/10/10 21:56, Andrew Coppin wrote: ...I thought *I* was the only person who's ever heard of Rexx? Every amiga user is very likely to have heard of rexx, as a close relative to it was included in AmigaOS at some point. ...and I had of course assumed that I was the only person to have ever heard of the Amiga too. Not to mention us old geekosaurs, some of whom have used (a) OS/2 (b) IBM VM/SP, for which REXX was the standard scripting language. (Fun stuff: extending XEDIT with REXX code.) - -- brandon s. allbery [linux,solaris,freebsd,perl] allb...@kf8nh.com system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] allb...@ece.cmu.edu electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university KF8NH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAky+U+EACgkQIn7hlCsL25VJAQCgzKsfXsTJ26r0Dlkhfb+eiMPq XKMAn3D0ygw74Y4YbqKiNtVVkEa1W/cm =/WfD -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On 10/19/10 9:32 AM, Michael Snoyman wrote: There are 11 skills I'm leaning towards dropping, all because they fall in the too vague/too general category. Your input is requested on these. They are: Attribute Grammar Categorical Programming Denotational design Proving observational equivalence between Haskell programs Taking all these together, they seem like they're trying to make more specific what someone means when they say they know mathematics. Bisimulation, denotational semantics, category theory, and AG are all popular mathematical techniques for writing robust functional programs. Perhaps they should be renamed to be a bit clearer to the uninitiated, but I see no reason to remove them. Perhaps something about domain theory should be added to the list. Mathematics Definitely too general IMO. Do we mean analytical mathematics (calculus, analytic geometry,...), discrete mathematics (sets, automata,...), algebraic mathematics (group theory, rings,...), or what? It might be worth having my more specific examples for folks who want to advertise having mathematics degrees, but just Mathematics is too vague. Cabal, packaging, build and distribution tools This seems like a good one to keep. There's a difference between knowing a language itself, and knowing the ecosystem well enough to be an effective developer in a team setting. This is the kind of skill that employers really like to see, since it distinguishes hobbyists from folks who have used the language in a professional setting. For example, I've known Java well enough to write programs in it for a long time. But I've only recently learned how to use Ant, PMD, FindBugs, TestNG, etc. Knowing those latter skills is what makes me a Java developer; not knowing the language. Similarly, one could consider knowing C++ vs knowing Boost etc. UNIX Scripting and Tool Authoring I think this one absolutely needs to stay. *nix scripting is a whole field of work, even though it's not generally recognized as such. This is what *nix sysadmins do all day (when they're not fighting fires). And it's one of the reasons why current NLP/SMT research is so painful (the lack of people writing the appropriate tools). Half of web development, in practice, often ends up being about this kind of thing too. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Daniel Peebles wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. Also it seems that 'tool building' is written lower case and thus at the last position at http://www.haskellers.com/skills/. What does 'tool building' mean? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Daniel Peebles pumpkin...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. I concur that we need to switch the skills list to moderated. My plan is to lock out the ability to add skills by non-admins, then do a manual cleanup myself. After that, if you want a skill added to the list, you'll need to ask an admin to do it (there will be an automated request form, just like with verified user status). Just so everyone knows what it means to be an admin: admin powers are very limited, it's basically a glorified moderator. That means that admins don't have the power to change your profile or anything like that. Except for me, what with having database write permissions, but that's kind of unavoidable ;). So in general, I think I'm going to have to take out all of those overly-general and overly-specific ones, and clarify some of the others. Such as explaining what tool building is (thanks, Chris!). Michael PS: I can't believe no one added a Write a monad tutorial skill. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On 18/10/2010 07:47 PM, Daniel Peebles wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com http://haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. ...I thought *I* was the only person who's ever heard of Rexx? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On 18/10/10 21:56, Andrew Coppin wrote: On 18/10/2010 07:47 PM, Daniel Peebles wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com http://haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. ...I thought *I* was the only person who's ever heard of Rexx? Every amiga user is very likely to have heard of rexx, as a close relative to it was included in AmigaOS at some point. /M -- Magnus Therning(OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4) magnus＠therning．org Jabber: magnus＠therning．org http://therning.org/magnus identi.ca|twitter: magthe signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Daniel Peebles pumpkin...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. I concur that we need to switch the skills list to moderated. My plan is to lock out the ability to add skills by non-admins, then do a manual cleanup myself. After that, if you want a skill added to the list, you'll need to ask an admin to do it (there will be an automated request form, just like with verified user status). Why don't you simply display only the most-used skills in the overview or listing of all skills? That way it isn't a manual process. Just so everyone knows what it means to be an admin: admin powers are very limited, it's basically a glorified moderator. That means that admins don't have the power to change your profile or anything like that. Except for me, what with having database write permissions, but that's kind of unavoidable ;). So in general, I think I'm going to have to take out all of those overly-general and overly-specific ones, and clarify some of the others. Such as explaining what tool building is (thanks, Chris!). Michael PS: I can't believe no one added a Write a monad tutorial skill. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Andrew Coppin wrote: On 18/10/2010 07:47 PM, Daniel Peebles wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. ...I thought *I* was the only person who's ever heard of Rexx? I even know ARexx! ;-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Daniel Peebles pumpkin...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. I concur that we need to switch the skills list to moderated. My plan is to lock out the ability to add skills by non-admins, then do a manual cleanup myself. After that, if you want a skill added to the list, you'll need to ask an admin to do it (there will be an automated request form, just like with verified user status). Why don't you simply display only the most-used skills in the overview or listing of all skills? That way it isn't a manual process. I already do, but look at how many people have selected tool building and Mathematics (myself included). Once the skill is in the list, people *will* choose it so they don't look like they don't know how to do something. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Daniel Peebles pumpkin...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. I concur that we need to switch the skills list to moderated. My plan is to lock out the ability to add skills by non-admins, then do a manual cleanup myself. After that, if you want a skill added to the list, you'll need to ask an admin to do it (there will be an automated request form, just like with verified user status). Why don't you simply display only the most-used skills in the overview or listing of all skills? That way it isn't a manual process. I already do, but look at how many people have selected tool building and Mathematics (myself included). Once the skill is in the list, people *will* choose it so they don't look like they don't know how to do something. Maybe you could not offer suggestions on the Edit your profile page? Then the list of frequent tags would only show up on a search or drill-down page. Antione ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskellers.com skills list moderation?
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:16 AM, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Daniel Peebles pumpkin...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Might it be worthwhile to take the elected superusers on haskellers.com and let them police the skills list? It's become rather messy, with overly broad terms like Mathematics in it, as well as overly specific ones like Other languages I know: C# .NET, XSLT, Microsoft SQL Server, XML, SQL, CSS, C, C++, Java, HTML, Visual Basic Script, Pascal, Rexx, Basic and assembler. I concur that we need to switch the skills list to moderated. My plan is to lock out the ability to add skills by non-admins, then do a manual cleanup myself. After that, if you want a skill added to the list, you'll need to ask an admin to do it (there will be an automated request form, just like with verified user status). Why don't you simply display only the most-used skills in the overview or listing of all skills? That way it isn't a manual process. I already do, but look at how many people have selected tool building and Mathematics (myself included). Once the skill is in the list, people *will* choose it so they don't look like they don't know how to do something. Maybe you could not offer suggestions on the Edit your profile page? Then the list of frequent tags would only show up on a search or drill-down page. I think that'll just make the problem worse: one person will type Template Haskell, another Template haskell someone else Metaprogramming via TH, and we'll have a true mess on our hands. Michael ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
