Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
Jason Dagit: The reason I started telling everyone to avoid GHC in apt was the way it was packaged. [..] If they are lucky they figure out which apt package to install. I think people who are too lazy to bother to find out how their distribution works, should avoid any distribution. % apt-cache search foo % sudo apt-get install libghc6-foo\* Erik de Castro Lopo mle...@mega-nerd.com writes: Debian doesn't have 'The Haskell Platform', it has a package named haskell-platform Ubuntu (10.4) doesn't seem to? Is this an omission? -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org writes: I think people who are too lazy to bother to find out how their distribution works, should avoid any distribution. % apt-cache search foo % sudo apt-get install libghc6-foo\* Agreed (to the extent that someone who can't be bothered figuring out an advanced distribution like Gentoo or LFS should try a simpler one first like Ubuntu before completely giving up). Erik de Castro Lopo mle...@mega-nerd.com writes: Debian doesn't have 'The Haskell Platform', it has a package named haskell-platform Ubuntu (10.4) doesn't seem to? Is this an omission? Hasn't been ported yet IIRC. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
Hi Ivan. Excerpts from Ivan Miljenovic's message of Ter Mar 30 00:01:19 -0300 2010: On 30 March 2010 13:55, Jason Dagit da...@codersbase.com wrote: (...) [..] now trying to profile something, oh wait, some problem again. Agreed, if Debian didn't include the profiling libraries with GHC (though is this due to how Debian does packages?). The profiling libraries included in ghc6 are available in the ghc6-prof package. Greetings. (...) -- marcot http://wiki.debian.org/MarcoSilva ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
Joachim Breitner nome...@debian.org writes: The profiling data is put in -prof packages, i.e. ghc-prof, libghc6-network-prof etc. Indeed, there is no easy way to tell the package system: Whenever I install a Haskell -dev package, please install the -prof package as well. One option might to add a fourth package: a virtual package that includes all the others. (E.g. a libghc6-network that would pull libghc6-network-dev, -prof and -doc.) I generally just add a wildcard (apt-get install libghc6-network-\*), though, which isn't a lot harder. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 4:53 AM, Joachim Breitner nome...@debian.orgwrote: Hi, Am Sonntag, den 28.03.2010, 09:04 +0100 schrieb Magnus Therning: I have to say it looks like Debian has gotten their act together somewhat when it comes to Haskel development. Many of the reasons for my deserting Debian seem have been taken care of. so, what is missing for you to come back :-) The reason I started telling everyone to avoid GHC in apt was the way it was packaged. Casual Haskell users would install GHC but get something like 1/10th of the libraries GHC installs when you do a source install and none of the profiled libraries. Everything seems fine and working. A few days later, this casual user tries to build something and cannot find the libraries they need. Usually they would struggle to find them and when when they did find out where to get them the answer was often, It should have come with ghc. They're baffled. If they are lucky they figure out which apt package to install. Now fast forward a few weeks. This casual user is now trying to profile something, oh wait, some problem again. If it had been an install from the ghc source then only additional packages on hackage would need to be hunted down and installed. Basically, it was a monumental headache for casual users to hunt down the full package list to reconstruct what you'd get from the source install. So, at some point, I just started telling all my friends to avoid the ghc in apt and go straight for the tarballs from GHC HQ. This advice seemed to save a lot of head scratching later. To me, until there is one obvious package to install to get the same set of files as a normal ghc install I will continue to discourage people from getting ghc from apt :) I've heard virtual packages could be used to fix the problem. That would be nice as long as the virtual package is easy to find and the name tips people off that it's the GHC they really want. I hope you find my feedback useful :) Jason PS It's been several years since I checked on GHC in debian, maybe my concerns have already been addressed. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
On 30 March 2010 13:55, Jason Dagit da...@codersbase.com wrote: The reason I started telling everyone to avoid GHC in apt was the way it was packaged. Casual Haskell users would install GHC but get something like 1/10th of the libraries GHC installs when you do a source install Is that because Debian didn't bundle the extralibs with GHC? If so, then that's a fallacy that people thought those libraries came with GHC (so much so that with 6.10.4 a lot of people were complaining that GHC no longer shipped with network, when technically it never did). [..] they would struggle to find them and when when they did find out where to get them the answer was often, It should have come with ghc. No, they shouldn't have. These libraries should be packaged individually, especially since Hackage started being used a lot. [..] now trying to profile something, oh wait, some problem again. Agreed, if Debian didn't include the profiling libraries with GHC (though is this due to how Debian does packages?). If it had been an install from the ghc source As in a custom compile from source? In that case there would definitely not have been any extralibs unless you explicitly added them. To me, until there is one obvious package to install to get the same set of files as a normal ghc install I will continue to discourage people from getting ghc from apt :) Unless it still doesn't provide profiling libraries, the extralibs problem is no more. There is, however, the Haskell Platform (which Debian seems to have almost had complete support for until the new one came out; now they've got to start again... _ ). -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
Ivan Miljenovic wrote: [..] now trying to profile something, oh wait, some problem again. Agreed, if Debian didn't include the profiling libraries with GHC (though is this due to how Debian does packages?). The haskell packages for Debian (I am one) have decided to stick to a pattern where if an upstream Haskell library is called 'foo' then: - The source code package will be called haskell-foo. - The library will be called libghc6-foo-dev. - The profiling version will be called libghc6-foo-prof - The documentation will be called libghc6-foo-doc. There might still be a small number of packages doing a variation on the above (especially for the source and doc packages). To me, until there is one obvious package to install to get the same set of files as a normal ghc install I will continue to discourage people from getting ghc from apt :) Unless it still doesn't provide profiling libraries, the extralibs problem is no more. There is, however, the Haskell Platform (which Debian seems to have almost had complete support for until the new one came out; now they've got to start again... _ ). Actually not quite correct. Debian does not strictly follow the Haskell Platform, mainly because some libraries in Debian were already at a later version when the first platform was released. The current situation can be seen here: http://wiki.debian.org/Haskell/Platform However, installing the Debian haskell-platform package should get close enough to the official Haskell Platform for most users not to notice. Erik -- -- Erik de Castro Lopo http://www.mega-nerd.com/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
On 30 March 2010 14:33, Erik de Castro Lopo mle...@mega-nerd.com wrote: The haskell packages for Debian (I am one) You are a Haskell _package_? :p - The source code package will be called haskell-foo. Is this an actual installable package (so you're installing the actual source code?) ? Debian does not strictly follow the Haskell Platform, mainly because some libraries in Debian were already at a later version when the first platform was released. Hence the almost complete: you can't say to have Platform support unless you have all of those exact packages. (Whilst Gentoo has meta-ebuilds for the platform, they're not exactly encouraged: we're going to be using them more as a basis of future stabilisation efforts rather than as something users should install. Note also that at least since I've been using it, Gentoo hasn't used extralibs and has installed made those libraries available separately.) -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
Ivan Miljenovic wrote: On 30 March 2010 14:33, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote: The haskell packages for Debian (I am one) You are a Haskell _package_? :p s/packages/packagers/ Although I speak for me, not the group. - The source code package will be called haskell-foo. Is this an actual installable package (so you're installing the actual source code?) ? The command: apt-get source haskell-foo will grab the haskell-foo source package bundle which includes the original source tarball, a diff.gz that gets applied to that tarball to make it into a debian package and a crypto signed file with md5 and sha1 signatures of the previous two files. It will then check the signatures and if they are ok, extract the original tarball and apply the diff. Debian does not strictly follow the Haskell Platform, mainly because some libraries in Debian were already at a later version when the first platform was released. Hence the almost complete: you can't say to have Platform support unless you have all of those exact packages. Debian doesn't have 'The Haskell Platform', it has a package named haskell-platform which conforms as closely as is reasonably possible to the former. For instance, if the Platform specifies Foo-1.0 and that has a security vulnerability but Foo-1.1 doesn't, then Debian is highly likely to ship Foo-1.1 instead. Erik -- -- Erik de Castro Lopo http://www.mega-nerd.com/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
My choice is latest packages available throug package manager and I use Fedora 12 as of now. Fedora 13 is coming out with ghc 6.12 By the way did you find out any packaged rpms for ghc on Centos? I remember a thread from haskell beginners on this where somebody was trying to get ghc installed on Centos and was doing it from sources. On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Gour g...@gour-nitai.com wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:13:04 -0500 Jeff == Jeff Wheeler j...@nokrev.com wrote: Jeff A bunch of stuff is packaged by dons for Arch; you can see a lot Jeff of links to the Arch packages on Hackage. It might be worth Jeff looking into. +1 for Arch. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Regards Lakshmi Narasimhan T V ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
On 28/03/10 08:50, Gour wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:13:04 -0500 Jeff == Jeff Wheeler j...@nokrev.com wrote: Jeff A bunch of stuff is packaged by dons for Arch; you can see a lot Jeff of links to the Arch packages on Hackage. It might be worth Jeff looking into. +1 for Arch. Add one more for Arch. I have to say it looks like Debian has gotten their act together somewhat when it comes to Haskel development. Many of the reasons for my deserting Debian seem have been taken care of. /M -- Magnus Therning(OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4) magnus＠therning．org Jabber: magnus＠therning．org http://therning.org/magnus identi.ca|twitter: magthe signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
Hi, Am Sonntag, den 28.03.2010, 09:04 +0100 schrieb Magnus Therning: I have to say it looks like Debian has gotten their act together somewhat when it comes to Haskel development. Many of the reasons for my deserting Debian seem have been taken care of. so, what is missing for you to come back :-) Greetings, Joachim (with his Debian-Haskell-Group member hat on) -- Joachim nomeata Breitner Debian Developer nome...@debian.org | ICQ# 74513189 | GPG-Keyid: 4743206C JID: nome...@joachim-breitner.de | http://people.debian.org/~nomeata signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
On 28/03/10 12:53, Joachim Breitner wrote: Hi, Am Sonntag, den 28.03.2010, 09:04 +0100 schrieb Magnus Therning: I have to say it looks like Debian has gotten their act together somewhat when it comes to Haskel development. Many of the reasons for my deserting Debian seem have been taken care of. so, what is missing for you to come back :-) Well, maybe I should qualify that a bit. There were a few issues with Haskell in Debian in the past. Most noticeably the lack of packages in the standard repos. This seems to have been addressed. The other thing, that bit me at the time, and witch really pushed me over the edge was the lack of speed in adopting new upstream versions of ghc and some of the very basic packages. That Debian has started picking up more packages is noticeable in Hackage. However, an increase in speed wouldn't really be noticeable to a non-Debian user. So you might have improved considerably in that area too... I just wouldn't know :-) /M -- Magnus Therning(OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4) magnus＠therning．org Jabber: magnus＠therning．org http://therning.org/magnus identi.ca|twitter: magthe signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
Magnus Therning wrote: Well, maybe I should qualify that a bit. There were a few issues with Haskell in Debian in the past. Most noticeably the lack of packages in the standard repos. This seems to have been addressed. The other thing, that bit me at the time, and witch really pushed me over the edge was the lack of speed in adopting new upstream versions of ghc and some of the very basic packages. That Debian has started picking up more packages is noticeable in Hackage. However, an increase in speed wouldn't really be noticeable to a non-Debian user. So you might have improved considerably in that area too... I just wouldn't know :-) Above all else, what has changed in Debian wrt Haskell is improved process. Improved process is something that makes handle of new upstream releases far easier than it was before and hence, we should be seeing the benefits of this improved process for many years to come. Erik -- -- Erik de Castro Lopo http://www.mega-nerd.com/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell-friendly Linux Distribution
2010/03/28 Ertugrul Soeylemez e...@ertes.de However, as always there is a catch. Gentoo is a source distribution, which means that you compile the entire system from scratch. On modern computers this is quite fast, but sometimes it can hammer on your patience. To be fair, Gentoo has a well thought out system for bundling up an installed build and creating a binary package for installation on other nodes. -- Jason Dusek ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
