Re: [External Mail] Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply back regarding this - it's very much appreciated. - 5DE7 65CE F99A B8FB 62A3 6613 A792 D15F DA9E F531 Original Message From: Eric Smith - erics at valvesoftware.com (via hlds list) [mailto:hlds@list.valvesoftware.com] Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021, 1:04 AM To: hlds Subject: [External Mail] Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released We don’t have the details yet, but we’re going to look into how we can continue supporting them. -Eric ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
RE: [External Mail] Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
We don’t have the details yet, but we’re going to look into how we can continue supporting them. -Eric From: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com On Behalf Of Naleksuh Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 4:23 PM To: hlds Subject: [External Mail] Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released Hey, thanks. I'm glad you were listening to the previous thread and are willing to consider bringing them back. Will we as server operators have to do anything different with disconnect reasons in the future? Or will they just start working again like they did before? On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:05:42 -0700 Eric Smith - erics at valvesoftware.com (via hlds list) mailto:hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>> wrote We’ve released a mandatory update for TF2. The new version number is 6862056. The notes for the update can be found here: https://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=100603 We’ll look into ways we can support the client disconnect reason for one of the coming updates. Thanks. -Eric ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/ ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/ ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
Hey, thanks. I'm glad you were listening to the previous thread and are willing to consider bringing them back. Will we as server operators have to do anything different with disconnect reasons in the future? Or will they just start working again like they did before? On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 16:05:42 -0700 Eric Smith - erics at valvesoftware.com (via hlds list) wrote We’ve released a mandatory update for TF2. The new version number is 6862056. The notes for the update can be found here: https://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=100603 We’ll look into ways we can support the client disconnect reason for one of the coming updates. Thanks. -Eric ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/ ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
[hlds_linux] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
We've released a mandatory update for TF2. The new version number is 6862056. The notes for the update can be found here: https://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=100603 We'll look into ways we can support the client disconnect reason for one of the coming updates. Thanks. -Eric ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
fwiw, the disconnect server event still contains the reason. Original message From: sigsegv Date: 10/28/21 6:25 PM (GMT-05:00) To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released A quick devil’s advocate argument (more of a food for thought thing, than an attempt to push any particular position really):One could perhaps reasonably argue that you’re already reliant on Steam’s servers being up anyway, even as an independent TF2 community server: if the TF2 GC is down, items don’t function properly; and since the scope of items covers not just cosmetics but large swaths of weapons, it has a pretty significantly deleterious impact on gameplay.So—arguably—you’re sorta already in the dependent-on-Steam-servers situation you’re saying you don’t want to be in; and it wouldn’t necessarily be a substantially different situation in the event that all community servers were required to use SDR.(It’s true though that the GC being up, and the SDR servers being up, aren’t exactly equivalent in impact: items not loading is less impactful than possibly being unable to connect to, or stay connected to, a server. And since these servers are distinct from the GC servers, it’s in reality an additional point of failure / degree of freedom that expands the potential outage “shadow” so to speak, rather than lining up perfectly such that there’s no difference.)Anyway… I just figured that was worth bringing up. Of course, all of this is moot if SDR does not in fact end up being mandatory.I believe CS:GO has been quite a bit ahead of TF2 in adopting SDR; so perhaps surveying the community server situation over there (such as it is) might be a useful exercise.(Incidentally: Now I want to look into the server disconnect reason thing more thoroughly. There’s no doubt the chat messages were being abused; but I’m wondering now if maybe there’s a legitimate reason for removing the rest of it too. (Not giving a convar to revert to the old behavior does seem ill-advised; maybe there were also client-side changes which made that infeasible…? Maybe not, dunno.) Anyhow… time to go dumpster diving into publicly available cheat source code and dig thru all the game-disconnect-related crap…)Justin / sigsegvOn Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 2:15 PM Naleksuh wrote:I'm much more concerned about the SDR thing though. The help pages indicate it'll be available for community server operators and that they (possibly?) plan to route *all* traffic through it. I really do not want this as I prefer to have control over the networking for my servers and I also don't want it to literally become impossible to play the game when Steam servers are downYeah, I thought removing it from the chat message was enough, I don't think it should have been made impossible to send disconnect messages. It's absolutely essential for me as a community server operator for example, people who are using VPNs, people trying to join when the server is full (I have sv_visiblemaxplayers set below maxplayers so the built in message wont show), people banned or trying to use a specific feature, people who are sending too many commands (i.e. PASS time) and dozens more. Now people have no clue why they are getting disconnected. It made sense to remove it from the chat as clients were abusing it but it shouldn't just be completely impossible for servers to send disconnect reasons. And this was not just for matchmaking servers but all servers including community servers. Please bring it back. On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:04:56 -0700 Tohru Adachi wrote SDR is intended for Casual MM it seems - in the simplest terms it's like Cloudflare but for gameservers. Other games eg CS:GO already use the system for official MM. While I'd be interested in seeing what they do with it, I don't think it's going to be rolled out to server operators. Can't say for sure because I'm not Eric or John (or whoever else still contributes to TF2). As a sidenote, I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of chat over Valve removing disconnect reasons for clients (all disconnects are now "Client Disconnect" instead of whatever the server sends, regardless of Casual or non-casual server). Would very much like to see it back as it's useful for informing clients. Original Message From: Naleksuh [mailto:nalek...@naleksuh.com] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021, 9:57 PM To: hlds Subject: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released So just to clarify. Using the SDR will remain optional right? I'd ideally like to not require a dependency on Steam servers to play the game as they are frequently down and some people might prefer connecting directly ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/ ___To unsubscribe, edit your list
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
From my own findings re. disconnect messages, the client still accepts the buffer from the server on net_disconnect, it just overrides the reason regardless. It's a bit of a hack job considering that there's non-user disconnect behaviour that uses that function (eg srcds quit) to display a different disconnect reason. I'm not sure why there isn't a convar check in there to see if the server is part of the MM pool - I'm fairly sure there's similar checks for some client behaviour such as activating contracts on the client. It is true that most SrcDS games are, to a degree, somewhat dependent on Steam servers eg. master server for server browser, GC/items and so forth. On the flipside, those can be mitigated to an extent by serverside mods and some convar changes, although you could also argue that with virtually all gameserver traffic directed at Valve through the use of Casual MM, it doesn't really matter much either way in regards to the current atmosphere and image of community-run game servers. That's a whole other topic though, so I won't delve into that... - 5DE7 65CE F99A B8FB 62A3 6613 A792 D15F DA9E F531 - Original Message From: sigsegv [mailto:sigs...@sigpipe.info] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021, 11:24 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released A quick devil’s advocate argument (more of a food for thought thing, than an attempt to push any particular position really): One could perhaps reasonably argue that you’re already reliant on Steam’s servers being up anyway, even as an independent TF2 community server: if the TF2 GC is down, items don’t function properly; and since the scope of items covers not just cosmetics but large swaths of weapons, it has a pretty significantly deleterious impact on gameplay. So—arguably—you’re sorta already in the dependent-on-Steam-servers situation you’re saying you don’t want to be in; and it wouldn’t necessarily be a substantially different situation in the event that all community servers were required to use SDR. (It’s true though that the GC being up, and the SDR servers being up, aren’t exactly equivalent in impact: items not loading is less impactful than possibly being unable to connect to, or stay connected to, a server. And since these servers are distinct from the GC servers, it’s in reality an additional point of failure / degree of freedom that expands the potential outage “shadow” so to speak, rather than lining up perfectly such that there’s no difference.) Anyway… I just figured that was worth bringing up. Of course, all of this is moot if SDR does not in fact end up being mandatory. I believe CS:GO has been quite a bit ahead of TF2 in adopting SDR; so perhaps surveying the community server situation over there (such as it is) might be a useful exercise. (Incidentally: Now I want to look into the server disconnect reason thing more thoroughly. There’s no doubt the chat messages were being abused; but I’m wondering now if maybe there’s a legitimate reason for removing the rest of it too. (Not giving a convar to revert to the old behavior does seem ill-advised; maybe there were also client-side changes which made that infeasible…? Maybe not, dunno.) Anyhow… time to go dumpster diving into publicly available cheat source code and dig thru all the game-disconnect-related crap…) Justin / sigsegv ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
A quick devil’s advocate argument (more of a food for thought thing, than an attempt to push any particular position really): One could perhaps reasonably argue that you’re already reliant on Steam’s servers being up anyway, even as an independent TF2 community server: if the TF2 GC is down, items don’t function properly; and since the scope of items covers not just cosmetics but large swaths of weapons, it has a pretty significantly deleterious impact on gameplay. So—arguably—you’re sorta already in the dependent-on-Steam-servers situation you’re saying you don’t want to be in; and it wouldn’t necessarily be a substantially different situation in the event that all community servers were required to use SDR. (It’s true though that the GC being up, and the SDR servers being up, aren’t exactly equivalent in impact: items not loading is less impactful than possibly being unable to connect to, or stay connected to, a server. And since these servers are distinct from the GC servers, it’s in reality an additional point of failure / degree of freedom that expands the potential outage “shadow” so to speak, rather than lining up perfectly such that there’s no difference.) Anyway… I just figured that was worth bringing up. Of course, all of this is moot if SDR does not in fact end up being mandatory. I believe CS:GO has been quite a bit ahead of TF2 in adopting SDR; so perhaps surveying the community server situation over there (such as it is) might be a useful exercise. (Incidentally: Now I want to look into the server disconnect reason thing more thoroughly. There’s no doubt the chat messages were being abused; but I’m wondering now if maybe there’s a legitimate reason for removing the rest of it too. (Not giving a convar to revert to the old behavior does seem ill-advised; maybe there were also client-side changes which made that infeasible…? Maybe not, dunno.) Anyhow… time to go dumpster diving into publicly available cheat source code and dig thru all the game-disconnect-related crap…) Justin / sigsegv On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 2:15 PM Naleksuh wrote: > > I'm much more concerned about the SDR thing though. The help pages > indicate it'll be available for community server operators and that they > (possibly?) plan to route *all* traffic through it. I really do not want > this as I prefer to have control over the networking for my servers and I > also don't want it to literally become impossible to play the game when > Steam servers are down > > Yeah, I thought removing it from the chat message was enough, I don't > think it should have been made impossible to send disconnect messages. It's > absolutely essential for me as a community server operator for example, > people who are using VPNs, people trying to join when the server is full (I > have sv_visiblemaxplayers set below maxplayers so the built in message wont > show), people banned or trying to use a specific feature, people who are > sending too many commands (i.e. PASS time) and dozens more. Now people have > no clue why they are getting disconnected. It made sense to remove it from > the chat as clients were abusing it but it shouldn't just be completely > impossible for servers to send disconnect reasons. And this was not just > for matchmaking servers but all servers including community servers. Please > bring it back. > > > > > > On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:04:56 -0700 *Tohru Adachi >* wrote > > SDR is intended for Casual MM it seems - in the simplest terms it's like > Cloudflare but for gameservers. Other games eg CS:GO already use the > system for official MM. > > While I'd be interested in seeing what they do with it, I don't think > it's going to be rolled out to server operators. Can't say for sure > because I'm not Eric or John (or whoever else still contributes to TF2). > > As a sidenote, I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of chat over Valve > removing disconnect reasons for clients (all disconnects are now "Client > Disconnect" instead of whatever the server sends, regardless of Casual > or non-casual server). Would very much like to see it back as it's > useful for informing clients. > > Original Message > From: Naleksuh [mailto:nalek...@naleksuh.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021, 9:57 PM > To: hlds > Subject: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released > > So just to clarify. Using the SDR will remain optional right? I'd > ideally like to not require a dependency on Steam servers to play the > game as they are frequently down and some people might prefer connecting > directly > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/ > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/ > ___ To unsubscribe, edit
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
I'm not too sure over Valve forcing operators to use SDR - this would require optimised routing pathing in almost every major hosting provider and owned/rented hardware there from Steam for users to route from within each AS for a lot of providers. I can see major providers who aren't yet on the list such as OVH next in line for SDR nodes as they'll likely be working on where to place nodes with good routing and peering for near-identical latency. I don't see this being forced because it would be impossible to get sufficient coverage with latency at or around identical non-SDR pathings, especially in under-networked areas such as APAC/Aus/South America et cetera. I could be completely wrong, though. I just hope I'm not, in this case. Original Message From: Naleksuh [mailto:nalek...@naleksuh.com] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021, 10:14 PM To: hlds Subject: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released I'm much more concerned about the SDR thing though. The help pages indicate it'll be available for community server operators and that they (possibly?) plan to route *all* traffic through it. I really do not want this as I prefer to have control over the networking for my servers and I also don't want it to literally become impossible to play the game when Steam servers are down Yeah, I thought removing it from the chat message was enough, I don't think it should have been made impossible to send disconnect messages. It's absolutely essential for me as a community server operator for example, people who are using VPNs, people trying to join when the server is full (I have sv_visiblemaxplayers set below maxplayers so the built in message wont show), people banned or trying to use a specific feature, people who are sending too many commands (i.e. PASS time) and dozens more. Now people have no clue why they are getting disconnected. It made sense to remove it from the chat as clients were abusing it but it shouldn't just be completely impossible for servers to send disconnect reasons. And this was not just for matchmaking servers but all servers including community servers. Please bring it back. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
I'm much more concerned about the SDR thing though. The help pages indicate it'll be available for community server operators and that they (possibly?) plan to route *all* traffic through it. I really do not want this as I prefer to have control over the networking for my servers and I also don't want it to literally become impossible to play the game when Steam servers are down Yeah, I thought removing it from the chat message was enough, I don't think it should have been made impossible to send disconnect messages. It's absolutely essential for me as a community server operator for example, people who are using VPNs, people trying to join when the server is full (I have sv_visiblemaxplayers set below maxplayers so the built in message wont show), people banned or trying to use a specific feature, people who are sending too many commands (i.e. PASS time) and dozens more. Now people have no clue why they are getting disconnected. It made sense to remove it from the chat as clients were abusing it but it shouldn't just be completely impossible for servers to send disconnect reasons. And this was not just for matchmaking servers but all servers including community servers. Please bring it back. On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:04:56 -0700 Tohru Adachi wrote SDR is intended for Casual MM it seems - in the simplest terms it's like Cloudflare but for gameservers. Other games eg CS:GO already use the system for official MM. While I'd be interested in seeing what they do with it, I don't think it's going to be rolled out to server operators. Can't say for sure because I'm not Eric or John (or whoever else still contributes to TF2). As a sidenote, I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of chat over Valve removing disconnect reasons for clients (all disconnects are now "Client Disconnect" instead of whatever the server sends, regardless of Casual or non-casual server). Would very much like to see it back as it's useful for informing clients. Original Message From: Naleksuh [mailto:mailto:nalek...@naleksuh.com] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021, 9:57 PM To: hlds Subject: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released So just to clarify. Using the SDR will remain optional right? I'd ideally like to not require a dependency on Steam servers to play the game as they are frequently down and some people might prefer connecting directly ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/ ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
SDR is intended for Casual MM it seems - in the simplest terms it's like Cloudflare but for gameservers. Other games eg CS:GO already use the system for official MM. While I'd be interested in seeing what they do with it, I don't think it's going to be rolled out to server operators. Can't say for sure because I'm not Eric or John (or whoever else still contributes to TF2). As a sidenote, I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of chat over Valve removing disconnect reasons for clients (all disconnects are now "Client Disconnect" instead of whatever the server sends, regardless of Casual or non-casual server). Would very much like to see it back as it's useful for informing clients. Original Message From: Naleksuh [mailto:nalek...@naleksuh.com] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021, 9:57 PM To: hlds Subject: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released So just to clarify. Using the SDR will remain optional right? I'd ideally like to not require a dependency on Steam servers to play the game as they are frequently down and some people might prefer connecting directly ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 update released
So just to clarify. Using the SDR will remain optional right? I'd ideally like to not require a dependency on Steam servers to play the game as they are frequently down and some people might prefer connecting directly On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:59:58 -0700 Eric Smith - erics at valvesoftware.com (via hlds list) wrote We've released a mandatory update for TF2. The new version number is 6858943. The notes for the update are below. Thanks. -Eric -- - Bug fixes to Steam Datagram Relay (SDR) support. This is currently in limited testing. We will have more info about this when it rolls our more broadly. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/ ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/
