[Hornlist] Tuning meter recommendations
Marksueron asked knowing that you do not like playing and watching the meter, when you do, does it adjust to each pitch instantaneously? what if you're playing something allegro?? when you're in tune equal tempered, does the needle jump around a little bit or not? I tested out my little CA-30 about an hour ago. I did not try to get hard data or test the response limits of my tuner. I simply played a few runs at a fairly relaxed tempo, four notes to the beat at about m.m. = 100. It took no time whatsoever to determine that my tuner did not register any of the notes other than the first pitch of the run and whatever pitch I landed on and held at the end of the run. Frankly, I'm not surprised. My experience is that any time I try to perform something fast, most auditors can't tell what notes I'm playing. Vin Duval -Original Message- From: Vincent Duval To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 11:45 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning meter recommendations In a message dated 4/4/2009 5:50:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,? william.s.gr...@gmail.com writes:? ? meter. It's? no longer working.? ? I would appreciate recommendations on a replacement with attention to? response time.>? ? ? Gosh, I'm sorry that my response time is so slow, but I get my hornlist posts in digest format, and I've been busy doing other stuff, so I just didn't read my email in a very prompt manner and all.? ? I'll agree with Carlberg, my CA-30 works well and it's cheap. However, most days I'd rather use a tuner that I can hear than use one that can hear me. My old AT-12 has a tone generator that is loud enough to hear while I'm playing, and I find that playing against a drone does more to improve intonation than following an equal-tempered needle or LCD with my eyes.? ? Just my 2 cents. It may be plus or minus a little, depending upon if I've been calibrated today.? ? Vin Duval? ___? post: h...@music.memphis.edu? unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/marksueron%40aol.com? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning meter recommendations
knowing that you do not like playing and watching the meter, when you do, does it adjust to each pitch instantaneously? what if you're playing something allegro?? when you're in tune equal tempered, does the needle jump around a little bit or not? -Original Message- From: Vincent Duval To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 11:45 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning meter recommendations In a message dated 4/4/2009 5:50:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,? william.s.gr...@gmail.com writes:? ? ? ? ? Gosh, I'm sorry that my response time is so slow, but I get my hornlist posts in digest format, and I've been busy doing other stuff, so I just didn't read my email in a very prompt manner and all.? ? I'll agree with Carlberg, my CA-30 works well and it's cheap. However, most days I'd rather use a tuner that I can hear than use one that can hear me. My old AT-12 has a tone generator that is loud enough to hear while I'm playing, and I find that playing against a drone does more to improve intonation than following an equal-tempered needle or LCD with my eyes.? ? Just my 2 cents. It may be plus or minus a little, depending upon if I've been calibrated today.? ? Vin Duval? ___? post: h...@music.memphis.edu? unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/marksueron%40aol.com? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning meter recommendations
From: Vincent Duval To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 11:45:02 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning meter recommendations I'll agree with Carlberg, my CA-30 works well and it's cheap. However, most days I'd rather use a tuner that I can hear than use one that can hear me. My old AT-12 has a tone generator that is loud enough to hear while I'm playing, and I find that playing against a drone does more to improve intonation than following an equal-tempered needle or LCD with my eyes. To add to my post about the TM-40 it generates and octave worth of semitones and can be output to an amplifier it it's not loud enough. Paxmaha ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning meter recommendations
In a message dated 4/4/2009 5:50:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, william.s.gr...@gmail.com writes: meter. It's no longer working. I would appreciate recommendations on a replacement with attention to response time.> Gosh, I'm sorry that my response time is so slow, but I get my hornlist posts in digest format, and I've been busy doing other stuff, so I just didn't read my email in a very prompt manner and all. I'll agree with Carlberg, my CA-30 works well and it's cheap. However, most days I'd rather use a tuner that I can hear than use one that can hear me. My old AT-12 has a tone generator that is loud enough to hear while I'm playing, and I find that playing against a drone does more to improve intonation than following an equal- tempered needle or LCD with my eyes. Just my 2 cents. It may be plus or minus a little, depending upon if I've been calibrated today. Vin Duval ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning Meter Recommendations
I have both the needle type and electronic needle type tuner ... The standard needle type does respond faster then the korg 20 or 30 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning Meter Recommendations
At 3:04 PM -0400 4/5/09, Donald Huang wrote: I'm rather sure that I remember reading that it turns off after 20 minutes. Yep! "AUTO POWER OFF FUNCTION The power will turn off automatically, if the unit is left powered-on for 20 minutes without performing any operation, avoiding unnecessary battery consumption." http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=99 Carlberg -- Carlberg Jones Skype - carlbergbmug Cornista - Orquesta Sinfónica de Aguascalientes Aguascalientes, Ags. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning Meter Recommendations
Carlberg hypothesized: > I believe it turns itself off automatically after a=20 > certain period of time, otherwise the battery=20 > surely would have run down. I'm rather sure that I remember reading that it turns off after 20 minutes. Donald Huang ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning a double horn(playing sharp)
Here's good practice for blending your low chops with your high chops:
Kopprasch #23, #56, #32.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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RE: [Hornlist] Tuning a double horn(playing sharp)
Yes, Valerie, you have understood it right. All has to be played with "about" the same embouchure setting. The only difference is it, to open more or to close the opening between the lips by the use of the jaw more, but in a very sublime manner. This can work only, if you use not more than the "necessary" vertical pressure, where vertical means mouthpiece verse lips. Inserting the mouthpiece just at the border of the red flesh of the lower lip helps a lot. It is the wrong way to play the extreme low notes with protruding lips as seen so often. Hope this helps a bit. If you have more questions, please, ask again. Greetings through the language barrier. Hans -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Valerie WELLS Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:30 PM To: horn1 list Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning a double horn(playing sharp) Hans, thank you for your comments. However, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to tell me. Do you mean that when I work on low horn parts, I'm setting in the lower lip too deeply (Einsetzen?) pulling the lips apart too much and it is causing cramping? Do you mean that I should be using the same basic embouchure "set up" for all my playing? Please clarify across the pond & our language barriers as best you can. Thank you. Valerie < It means, that you cramp the one or the opposite way. Whynot playing all relaxed with less vertical pressure,mouthpiece set at the edge of the lower lip so it pulls thelip opening open enough ? You would soon find out that youplay more relaxed without getting sharp or flat. Gettingflat due to playing low parts ? Why ? Because you aredigging into the ground instead of playing the low notesjust as other notes. Try it ! Just practising the one or theother extreme does not improve anything.>___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning a double horn(playing sharp)
Hans, thank you for your comments. However, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to tell me. Do you mean that when I work on low horn parts, I'm setting in the lower lip too deeply (Einsetzen?) pulling the lips apart too much and it is causing cramping? Do you mean that I should be using the same basic embouchure "set up" for all my playing? Please clarify across the pond & our language barriers as best you can. Thank you. Valerie < It means, that you cramp the one or the opposite way. Whynot playing all relaxed with less vertical pressure,mouthpiece set at the edge of the lower lip so it pulls thelip opening open enough ? You would soon find out that youplay more relaxed without getting sharp or flat. Gettingflat due to playing low parts ? Why ? Because you aredigging into the ground instead of playing the low notesjust as other notes. Try it ! Just practising the one or theother extreme does not improve anything.>___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning a double horn(playing sharp)
It means, that you cramp the one or the opposite way. Why not playing all relaxed with less vertical pressure, mouthpiece set at the edge of the lower lip so it pulls the lip opening open enough ? You would soon find out that you play more relaxed without getting sharp or flat. Getting flat due to playing low parts ? Why ? Because you are digging into the ground instead of playing the low notes just as other notes. Try it ! Just practising the one or the other extreme does not improve anything. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Valerie WELLS Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 5:17 AM To: horn1 list Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning a double horn(playing sharp) Everytime I start to have trouble playing chronically sharp, all I have to do to correct the problem is to spend an appreciable amount of time working on low horn work, & I mean VERY LOW horn work. My favorite low horn part to honk around on is Kerry Turner's Quartet # 1. I can't play the fourth part worth beans, but it sure is fun & always relaxes my embouchure. When I first started working on it, I spent at least an hour a day on it. After about five days of that, I was so flat I was still below pitch will my tuning slide pushed all the way in. Valerie___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning a double horn(playing sharp)
Everytime I start to have trouble playing chronically sharp, all I have to do to correct the problem is to spend an appreciable amount of time working on low horn work, & I mean VERY LOW horn work. My favorite low horn part to honk around on is Kerry Turner's Quartet # 1. I can't play the fourth part worth beans, but it sure is fun & always relaxes my embouchure. When I first started working on it, I spent at least an hour a day on it. After about five days of that, I was so flat I was still below pitch will my tuning slide pushed all the way in. Valerie___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
Tuning of a double horn Yes, it is a Holton horn. Thank you for that information about what that slide is. That water slide (with the symbol) was jammed way out when I first acquiered the horn. After we finally got it out we saw that the slide must have been dropped because the end of the one side was bent which had been why it was jammed immovable to begin with. Now it works. The slide is only a fraction of an inch out past it's mark. When I first got the horn I noticed it was difficult to tune the F side perfectly. When we finally got that slide unjammed and I got it back in it was obvious that the horn tuned to itself much easier. It was a relief to find out what the problem was. Still, it can't be totally in either. Don't know why. I have checked it with tuners many times and there seems to be the slightest off balance if it is in all the way. Maybe it's just one of those funny things about the fact each horn is different. Besides the fact there is never any water there I don't like to pull that slide because it still is slightly out of round enough that it is a nuisance to pull and put back in. So, it pretty much stays in place. The hand position I mentioned was NOT how I play the horn. I was referring to the fact that jamming the hand in all the way while trying to get the 1st initial tuning of the slides into a reasonable position for the horn deadends the sound and doesn't make tuning it any easier. We had one horn player that even the director had to kindly remind her a few times that they were muffling their sound with their hand position. My suggestions were just for added help. I can't see where exact measurements given would always work for every horn made even if it is the same model. There are too many variables. I do not have no trouble playing in tune with other instruments. If I am out I adjust accordingly as best I can. Just a quote so that all don't think I'm just assuming so. Once, while playing the same notes along up high with our lead player on a particular passage, the conductor asked if I had even been playing. Without hesitation our lead player avidly said yes. Well, have to go visit with one of the grandkids. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
First off, Amy, I've had similar problems with playing very sharp. A teacher finally managed to help me out. I'll just pass on his (Steve Park with the Orchestra on Temple Square) advice and maybe it'll help you too. He told me that I was overcompensating for everyone in the brass world telling me to not put pressure on my mouthpiece. So he pushed all my slides in all the way so I could over-learn his correction. After about two weeks, he let me pull them out a bit again. But his advice for bringing down the pitch was to put a little more "weight" on the mouthpiece. Not only did my pitch drop, but my tone became hugely richer! Flexibility improved as well (not at first, but after those initial weeks). Apparently, without that weight, I was pinching my lips together a bit too tight. Putting more weight on the mouthpiece allowed me to relax the rest of my embouchure. It balanced everything out. Anyway, good luck! As for tuning in general, it's such a relative term that it's difficult to discuss. People on this list might enjoy reading Stuart Isakov's "Temperament". It's a great book about the development of equal temperament on the piano, and it's certainly shaped my understanding of intonation, especially coupled with a knowledge of music theory. "In tune" depends on so many different variables: chord tone, ensemble, function, key, etc. For example: I could sit perfectly on an A 440, but if I were anything but the tonic or maybe the fifth of a chord, I would probably be out of tune. If I played an A 440 and my note was a leading tone, I'd be disgustingly out of tune. Same if I were in a key signature with many sharps or flats. There is no "absolute" in tune for a single pitch (as a tuner might lead some to believe). It's all about being aware of your surroundings and the function of the note you are playing. This is why music theory is so important for good musicianship (you can tell I'm a theory teacher ^_^). Finally, balance is essential. I took an acoustics class and did an experiment with intonation. Using a sound level meter and a tuner, I found that two horn players HAVE to play balanced or they CANNOT play in tune. The waves interfere or something like that. They also have to play in tune or no matter how hard they work, their sounds will cancel each other out. Anyway, that's why if you're ever in a section with some jerk that thinks his part is most important and overplays everyone else, it's really difficult to play in tune with him (I just came from a section with two of those). Anyway, just food for thought, I guess. And I haven't contributed to the discussions here for a while. Heather Barson ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn-tension
Amy wrote: That was a big help, because my prof tells me a lot that I DO have a problem with tension, but he never mentioned anything about it affecting tuning. Since my change in embouchure, I've felt that it takes a lot more effort to play the high notes. That's where the tension came from, trying to get my range back. I've been trying to work on letting the air flow freely, and keep my shoulders and neck relaxed, but I find it difficult to even realize I'm doing it while practicing on my own. I do breathing exercises, try to keep as relaxed as possible, but I don't think it's really doing much since every week, I still get told about tension. I know pressure on my face isn't a big issue, because we experimented with a spring loaded pressure device, and I did pretty well on it. Any recommendations about how to work on this on my own? Do you think playing on the knee, rather than off, would be any help? -- Let me give you a for instance A dear friend of mine is a great player. He sounds good and has good command of the instrument and his pitch is good. His slides are pulled out way too far because of upper body tension. I've told him for years that if he had six months where he could work it out we could fix this tension in his neck and shoulders but he works too much and doesn't have the time. About six months ago he was on a multi state bq5 tour and he ended up needing to go to a massage therapist when he got back. After the masseuse got done with him, in order to play with anyone else he immediately had to push his slides in to a spot I would call normal for a player of his ability. I hated to say "I told you so!" but I did anyway ;-) It took him about two weeks to shake of the massage and have to pull his slides out again. This last bit serves also to illustrate that it takes time for good habits to replace bad ones (and two weeks wasn't enough for him)...and lots of willpower. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes potentially perfect. Then there is the bit about becoming comfortable with the new good habits too. If you have recently changed your embouchure you may need to work out your range issues from a more remedial perspective rather than trying or expecting to keep playing merrily along as before. Playing on the knee will not fix this issue as your posture is more likely to be correct if it is the same for both standing and sitting. Make sure your posture sitting or standing is ergonomically correct so as not to add to the problem. Proper hand position is of course necessary too but I think this is more of a tension issue. What to do about it? Take a weekly spa day. Or push all your slides into a more normal setting and turn your tuner on (one of the rare times I recommend looking at a tuner). Practice long tones blowing the note "straight down the middle." Don't lip the note high or low in the pocket. Let the tension go in order to lower the pitch. Consciously try to relax your upper body and try to keep the embouchure as relaxed as possible. I'm not talking about pinky hook pressure. I'm talking about tension in the embouchure before the mouthpiece ever goes on the lips. Also, while you want to hold the horn with authority you don't want a death grip either. You might try some yoga or taiji or sitting meditation to help focus the mind and relax the body. This tension thing is going to piss you off royally until you figure out how to play with or without the tuner by relaxing instead of pulling the slides. Revel in the frustration because you won't fix this issue until you work at it and it becomes a zen exercise. I can't tell you more than that because I can't see/hear you play. Most importantly remember to work from your strengths through your weaknesses and back to your strengths. Never end a session on a bad note unless you are in Bad Schplittendorf with Prof IMG or it is one of the 12 days of Clamsaa. One good note becomes two becomes three becomes a strand of pearls. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
No, the lips do not decouple the body from the horn. Consider that the lips interact with the sound wave reflected from the bell. They don't just buzz. In the same way, the lips interact with the resonances of the air cavities of the mouth, pharynx, etc. That is, there are pushes and pulls on the lips from both sides. What goes on on one side of the embouchure affects the other side. That's why the vowel you form affects the horn sound. Since my voice timbre is created by these resonances, and my voice sounds different from yours, so my horn sound differs. Here's an experiment. Sing a note in a relaxed manner. Now tense just your shoulders. The sound changes. The same thing happens with the horn. Herb Foster, research engineer - Original Message From: Bill Gross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Horn List Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:36:12 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn I am curious about the contribution to the horn sound the person playing has on it? Assuming equal mastery of the instrument, what influence of the physical structure of the players head has on final sound. Beyond the lips, the sinus cavities, etc. and connected to the horn. Do the lips (embouchure) decouple the rest of the body from the horn? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn-tension
That was a big help, because my prof tells me a lot that I DO have a problem with tension, but he never mentioned anything about it affecting tuning. Since my change in embouchure, I've felt that it takes a lot more effort to play the high notes. That's where the tension came from, trying to get my range back. I've been trying to work on letting the air flow freely, and keep my shoulders and neck relaxed, but I find it difficult to even realize I'm doing it while practicing on my own. I do breathing exercises, try to keep as relaxed as possible, but I don't think it's really doing much since every week, I still get told about tension. I know pressure on my face isn't a big issue, because we experimented with a spring loaded pressure device, and I did pretty well on it. Any recommendations about how to work on this on my own? Do you think playing on the knee, rather than off, would be any help? Amy -- Original message -- From: "John Dutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Amy wrote: > Snip> It's also amazing to me, because I tend to be sharp, and try and try > to pull the pitch down in the higher register, but no amount of moving > slides will get the horn in tune. But when my professor plays the same horn, > he is almost always on the slightly flat side. I couldn't get the horn that > low no matter what I did. > > Speaking of that... snip>> I have a Hoyer 7801, and I expect it to be on > the sharp side, but it's ridiculously sharp in the upper register, and > always has been, even after I completely flipped my embouchure around. I > pull my jaw down as far as I can before the note completely cracks, and it's > still up there. If I pull the slides any farther, the mid/low register will > be flat. I snip>>. Any suggestions so I'm not painfully out of tune all the > time? > -- > > Your symptoms describe someone who has excessive tension in the embouchure > and possibly the upper chest and shoulders. The mouthpiece is an isolating > chamber and should be isolating loose fleshy lips in that isolating chamber. > Everything you have described in your own playing points to this. There is > nothing wrong with your horn or your teacher wouldn't be able to play it in > tune or low. Eliminate the tension in your shoulders and most importantly > eliminate the tension of your face and inside the mouthpiece and your pitch > will improve dramatically. Your teacher should be able to help-if he can't > then either s/he isn't able to see it or you aren't hearing the message. > Good luck. > > The Jack Attack! > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/akruegs629%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
I am curious about the contribution to the horn sound the person playing has on it? Assuming equal mastery of the instrument, what influence of the physical structure of the players head has on final sound. Beyond the lips, the sinus cavities, etc. and connected to the horn. Do the lips (embouchure) decouple the rest of the body from the horn? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
Amy wrote: Snip> It's also amazing to me, because I tend to be sharp, and try and try to pull the pitch down in the higher register, but no amount of moving slides will get the horn in tune. But when my professor plays the same horn, he is almost always on the slightly flat side. I couldn't get the horn that low no matter what I did. Speaking of that... snip>> I have a Hoyer 7801, and I expect it to be on the sharp side, but it's ridiculously sharp in the upper register, and always has been, even after I completely flipped my embouchure around. I pull my jaw down as far as I can before the note completely cracks, and it's still up there. If I pull the slides any farther, the mid/low register will be flat. I snip>>. Any suggestions so I'm not painfully out of tune all the time? -- Your symptoms describe someone who has excessive tension in the embouchure and possibly the upper chest and shoulders. The mouthpiece is an isolating chamber and should be isolating loose fleshy lips in that isolating chamber. Everything you have described in your own playing points to this. There is nothing wrong with your horn or your teacher wouldn't be able to play it in tune or low. Eliminate the tension in your shoulders and most importantly eliminate the tension of your face and inside the mouthpiece and your pitch will improve dramatically. Your teacher should be able to help-if he can't then either s/he isn't able to see it or you aren't hearing the message. Good luck. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
From: "Robert Dickow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> All my tuning, if any, is with the main slide. Whether or not a particular full double has a separate tuning slide for the Bb branch, it is important to remember that the main tuning slide that is shared between branches affects the Bb slide 4/3 times the amount it affects the F side. For very small tuning adjustments this may not matter, but if the temperature or a particular ensemble requires a large tuning adjustment, you should move the main slide enough to bring the Bb side into tune and then adjust the F side slide in the same direction by 1/3 that amount. This is most necessary only if you have to play in extreme temperatures. If you ever have the misfortune to play in extreme heat you may need to pull every slide proportionately. If you have to move the main slide 1.5 inches, you ought move the F tuning slide 1/2 inch, the Bb 1st valve slide 1/6 inch, the F 1st valve slide about 2/9 inch, etc. etc. etc. This 1.5 inches motion in the slide is calculated for the 3 inches you need to add to the Bb side when moving from 70 degrees F to 100 degrees F. The slide has two legs, so moving it a certain distance affects the length of the horn by double that amount. The nice thing about playing in 100 degree heat -- perhaps the only nice thing -- is that once you get everything in tune there will be almost zero condensation and you won't have to mess further with the slides for emptying. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] That is also true. It just throws me off a little bit, when I hear my horn so differently, when I'm used to hearing it for hours a day with my tone. It's also amazing to me, because I tend to be sharp, and try and try to pull the pitch down in the higher register, but no amount of moving slides will get the horn in tune. But when my professor plays the same horn, he is almost always on the slightly flat side. I couldn't get the horn that low no matter what I did. Speaking of that... Anyone have any suggestions? I know there are different slides for the F and Bb, and they should be all proportionally pulled... But I have trouble figuring out which slide does what. I have a Hoyer 7801, and I expect it to be on the sharp side, but it's ridiculously sharp in the upper register, and always has been, even after I completely flipped my embouchure around. I pull my jaw down as far as I can before the note completely cracks, and it's still up there. If I pull the slides any farther, the mid/low register will be flat. I can't find a slide that tunes only the Bb side, they only do the F or both. Any suggestions so I'm not painfully out of tune all the time? Take your right hand off your slides and put it back in the bell WHERE IT BELONGS. Your hand is probably too far in the bell, or too closed. Using _only_ the open F side to eliminate the variables of slides, experiment to find a hand position where the horn is reasonably in tune with itself. Remember, you may want to tighten the hand position to narrow the flare in the high range (it improves the resonance Q of the high nharmonics) but you need to open up again in mid and low range. The flattening effect of the hand increases in the low range. You might have your professor again play your horn over various ranges and watch from behind what he does with his right hand. Valves, their tuning slides, and all the other tuning slides on a modern horn have almost nothing to do with the fundamentals of horn playing. They just get in the way of mastering the instrument itself. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
That is also true. It just throws me off a little bit, when I hear my horn so differently, when I'm used to hearing it for hours a day with my tone. It's also amazing to me, because I tend to be sharp, and try and try to pull the pitch down in the higher register, but no amount of moving slides will get the horn in tune. But when my professor plays the same horn, he is almost always on the slightly flat side. I couldn't get the horn that low no matter what I did. Speaking of that... Anyone have any suggestions? I know there are different slides for the F and Bb, and they should be all proportionally pulled... But I have trouble figuring out which slide does what. I have a Hoyer 7801, and I expect it to be on the sharp side, but it's ridiculously sharp in the upper register, and always has been, even after I completely flipped my embouchure around. I pull my jaw down as far as I can before the note completely cracks, and it's still up there. If I pull the slides any farther, the mid/low register will be flat. I can't find a slide that tunes only the Bb side, they only do the F or both. Any suggestions so I'm not painfully out of tune all the time? Amy -- Original message -- From: "Robert Dickow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > ...or amazing how different horns sound the same when played by the same > person??!! > > Wendell, remember when you had that gathering at the War Memorial Opera > House in SF and tried out all those different horns for friends out in the > hall? I heard only subtle differences in quality from horn to horn, but > through them all, they all sounded like Wendell Rider. > > Bob Dickow, > Lionel Hampton School of Music > > -Original Message- > > It seems amazing to me that the same horn, when played by two different > people, can sound so different. > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/akruegs629%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
...or amazing how different horns sound the same when played by the same person??!! Wendell, remember when you had that gathering at the War Memorial Opera House in SF and tried out all those different horns for friends out in the hall? I heard only subtle differences in quality from horn to horn, but through them all, they all sounded like Wendell Rider. Bob Dickow, Lionel Hampton School of Music -Original Message- It seems amazing to me that the same horn, when played by two different people, can sound so different. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
Jake's basically right, but I have many drain tubes permanently positioned variously at different places on my MerkerMatic. After getting the valve section tuned, after purchasing the horn, was important. But once set, I don't think I've done much tuning or repositioning of them in many years. All my tuning, if any, is with the main slide. Ramblings: This may seem like an odd admission, but the brass quintet that I've played with for the past 24 years virtually never spends any time tuning. We just start rehearsing. I think we do any adjustments while we hear each other warming up, so a lot of it is unconscious I would say. The woodwind quintet I play with, on the other hand, is tuning up all the time. Brass instruments don't have so many incompatibilities amongst themselves. Goofy anecdote: I once played a guest solo with a high school band in the north Idaho region. At the concert, the band tuned and I carefully tuned up with them before playing. But no sooner did the downbeat occur and the band was back playing its usual 1/5 tone SHARP!!! I had a tough time that evening. Bob Dickow, Lionel Hampton School of Music -Original Message----- Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn Most horns are designed to be "in tune" (whatever that is) with the tuning slides pulled out a bit. The water slides stay all the way in. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
Most horns are designed to be "in tune" (whatever that is) with the tuning slides pulled out a bit. This gives some leeway both up and down to adjust to ensembles that may be slightly sharp or flat. Remember, though, that all of the slides are not necessarily TUNING slides but may be just for emptying water. The water slides stay all the way in. Jake Ewalt At 12:18 PM 1/17/2008, you wrote: . . . . . . . Now to my question. With a high class french horn I would expect that all slides both on the Bb side and the F side would be matched to produce perfect tuning, and not require any particular adjustments. . . . . . . . ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
> > The tuning recommendations by pulling out most of the slides in both Bb and > F "circulation seem a bit complicated for a trumpet player, but I tend to > understand that the french horn is a most other animal with a total tubing > lengfh well over 12 feet. There aren't that many double trumpets as far as I know. With the horn there are more different lengths of tubing that can be put into the air path. Each one of them needs to be individually tuned. Since the adjustment of each affects the tuning of all notes that use that bit of tubing, to a different degree depending on what other tubing is in the air path, all tuning is going to be rather a compromise, and yes it is more complex than on the trumpet. > > Now to my question. With a high class french horn I would expect that all > slides both on the Bb side and the F side would be matched to produce > perfect tuning, and not require any particular adjustments. If all the slides were nominally perfectly in tune, nobody would ever be able to sharpen a horn. Therefore, the horns are designed and manufactured so that with the slides fully pushed in, the horn will be somewhat sharp. You then pull the slides out a bit to get the horn perfectly tuned (or as near to perfect as the inevitable compromises will allow.) Certainly, the better quality horns give you better tuning through better design and manufacture. But some compromises remain simply as a result of the laws of physics. > > I tend to understand , that it ies outsida the possibilities to design a > french horn , that does no need tuning. > > On the other hand you can and will make a lot of intonation with your > embochure. That is easier to do in the lower range than the upper range. In the upper range, trying to adjust tuning with the embouchure carries a high risk of flipping onto the wrong harmonic altogether. Anyway, the better in tune your horn is without adjusting your embouchure, the easier the horn is to play, and the more secure and confident you can be that you will hit the right notes. > > I am sorry for bringing up these amateurish questions, but I want to know as > much as possible in order to assist my grand son. Ask away! I much prefer to see someone on the list who honestly wants to learn about these things than someone who thinks thay already know it all. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
Horns are built to fit different environment & tuning, some orchestras are higher some lower. Pull the main tuning slide for some 12 - 15 mms, adjust the concert F on the F-side by pulling the F-side tuning slide. Adjust the top slides 1: 1,5 cms (=0,6"), 2: 1 cm (=,4") 3: 1,75 cms (= 0,7") Adjust the lower B-flat slides the same way but all of them about 2,5 mms shorter (=0,1" shorter). This is the approximate way to tune a double. If the horn has to play a higher pitch, adjust all slides accordingly, but just a bit. Do not fumble too much for the slides. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Borje Lofblad Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:18 PM To: Horn Music Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn Hi , Upon previos questions regarding fingering and tuning I have received rather complete answers. Nevertheless there are still some question marks. The tuning recommendations by pulling out most of the slides in both Bb and F "circulation seem a bit complicated for a trumpet player, but I tend to understand that the french horn is a most other animal with a total tubing lengfh well over 12 feet. Now to my question. With a high class french horn I would expect that all slides both on the Bb side and the F side would be matched to produce perfect tuning, and not require any particular adjustments. I tend to understand , that it ies outsida the possibilities to design a french horn , that does no need tuning. On the other hand you can and will make a lot of intonation with your embochure. I am sorry for bringing up these amateurish questions, but I want to know as much as possible in order to assist my grand son. Borje ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
This has probably been brought up before, and might not help at all, but it's an observation of mine that no horn tunes the same, even of the same model. It seems to depend more on the player. A friend of mine has the same horn as I, but our slides look completely different. Also, when my professor plays my horn to show me something, the tuning is wildly different than when I play. It seems amazing to me that the same horn, when played by two different people, can sound so different. -- Original message -- From: "Steve Freides" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > All tunings are compromises of some sort. The idea is just to find the one > that works best for most circumstances. I have never met a horn player who > plays with all, or for that matter, any of the tuning slides all the way in, > the position that might be considered the "factory default". > > -S- > > > -Original Message- > > From: Borje Lofblad [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:18 PM > > To: Horn Music > > Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn > > > > Hi , > > > > Upon previos questions regarding fingering and tuning I > > have received rather complete answers. > > > > Nevertheless there are still some question marks. > > > > The tuning recommendations by pulling out most of the slides > > in both Bb and F "circulation seem a bit complicated for a > > trumpet player, but I tend to understand that the french horn > > is a most other animal with a total tubing lengfh well over 12 feet. > > > > Now to my question. With a high class french horn I would > > expect that all slides both on the Bb side and the F side > > would be matched to produce perfect tuning, and not require > > any particular adjustments. > > > > I tend to understand , that it ies outsida the possibilities > > to design a french horn , that does no need tuning. > > > > On the other hand you can and will make a lot of intonation > > with your embochure. > > > > I am sorry for bringing up these amateurish questions, but I > > want to know as much as possible in order to assist my grand son. > > > > Borje > > > > > > ___ > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > > unsubscribe or set options at > > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays > computer.com > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/akruegs629%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
All tunings are compromises of some sort. The idea is just to find the one that works best for most circumstances. I have never met a horn player who plays with all, or for that matter, any of the tuning slides all the way in, the position that might be considered the "factory default". -S- > -Original Message- > From: Borje Lofblad [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:18 PM > To: Horn Music > Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn > > Hi , > > Upon previos questions regarding fingering and tuning I > have received rather complete answers. > > Nevertheless there are still some question marks. > > The tuning recommendations by pulling out most of the slides > in both Bb and F "circulation seem a bit complicated for a > trumpet player, but I tend to understand that the french horn > is a most other animal with a total tubing lengfh well over 12 feet. > > Now to my question. With a high class french horn I would > expect that all slides both on the Bb side and the F side > would be matched to produce perfect tuning, and not require > any particular adjustments. > > I tend to understand , that it ies outsida the possibilities > to design a french horn , that does no need tuning. > > On the other hand you can and will make a lot of intonation > with your embochure. > > I am sorry for bringing up these amateurish questions, but I > want to know as much as possible in order to assist my grand son. > > Borje > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning of a double horn
Hi , Upon previos questions regarding fingering and tuning I have received rather complete answers. Nevertheless there are still some question marks. The tuning recommendations by pulling out most of the slides in both Bb and F "circulation seem a bit complicated for a trumpet player, but I tend to understand that the french horn is a most other animal with a total tubing lengfh well over 12 feet. Now to my question. With a high class french horn I would expect that all slides both on the Bb side and the F side would be matched to produce perfect tuning, and not require any particular adjustments. I tend to understand , that it ies outsida the possibilities to design a french horn , that does no need tuning. On the other hand you can and will make a lot of intonation with your embochure. I am sorry for bringing up these amateurish questions, but I want to know as much as possible in order to assist my grand son. Borje ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
O rings work well also, and they are cheap. -Original Message- From: Valerie WELLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 2:51 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??) I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine tuning screws on string instruments. Anyone know where I can find such a thing? Valerie (BTW, Gail was INCREDIBLE at the UPS Brassworks.) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corsolo%40aol.com Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning slides from the bottom up.
I used to grease my slides & shove them all the way in, then tune them from the top down by pulling out the slides. This left exposed grease inside the slide, close to the valves that could easily migrate to the valves & gum them up. This is what I do now to help keep grease from migrating into the valves: When I clean my horn & remove all the old grease, I tune from the "bottom up." That is, I put the grease about 1/2 inch from the end of each valve slide, then insert the slides just enough for them to be secure while I tune the slides by pushing them in just far enough to be "in tune." This prevents pushing grease close to the valves. I've done this the last couple of times I've greased my slides & I've had less trouble (actually NO trouble) with the valves getting gummed up w/ grease. Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
I was taught to make a pencil mark on the slide along the rim of the outer tube to indicate how far to push the slide in. If your slide doesn't move by itself, that seems as simple a solution as possible, and features not only the flexibility of pushing in farther when necessary, but also it keeps a memory of where the slide has been lately. If you dedicate a special pencil for only this job, it should last about 500 years. David Goldberg ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
I look at the slide before I pull it out and again after I reinsert it. Even cheaper. John Baumgart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fred Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:52 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??) $11.95 each?? OUCH!! I use plumbers "O" rings, 2 or 3 on each slide so they don't move without intentionaround a nickel each at hardware stores. Fred On 10/30/07, Jonell Lindholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >= Original Message From The Horn List = > >I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. > > I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail > >William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. > >They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They > >attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are > >tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine > >tuning screws on string instruments. > > > >Anyone know where I can find such a thing? > > They are listed on the Osmun web site. See > http://store.osmun.com/browse.cfm/4,103.html > > -- > > Jonell Lindholm > Reisterstown, MD USA > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
That's one of the reasons to grease the slides. If you apply the right amount you'll be able to see where you had them set. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Valerie WELLS Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:52 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??) I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine tuning screws on string instruments. Anyone know where I can find such a thing? Valerie (BTW, Gail was INCREDIBLE at the UPS Brassworks.) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
The cheapest slide marker I have seen is the judicious use of a Sharpie to mark the slide.? Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited -Original Message- From: Fred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??) $11.95 each?? OUCH!! I use plumbers "O" rings, 2 or 3 on each slide so they don't move without intentionaround a nickel each at hardware stores. Fred On 10/30/07, Jonell Lindholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >= Original Message From The Horn List = > >I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. > > I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail > >William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. > >They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They > >attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are > >tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine > >tuning screws on string instruments. > > > >Anyone know where I can find such a thing? > > They are listed on the Osmun web site. See > http://store.osmun.com/browse.cfm/4,103.html > > -- > > Jonell Lindholm > Reisterstown, MD USA > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brassartsunlim%40aol.com Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
$11.95 each?? OUCH!! I use plumbers "O" rings, 2 or 3 on each slide so they don't move without intentionaround a nickel each at hardware stores. Fred On 10/30/07, Jonell Lindholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >= Original Message From The Horn List = > >I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. > > I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail > >William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. > >They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They > >attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are > >tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine > >tuning screws on string instruments. > > > >Anyone know where I can find such a thing? > > They are listed on the Osmun web site. See > http://store.osmun.com/browse.cfm/4,103.html > > -- > > Jonell Lindholm > Reisterstown, MD USA > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
>= Original Message From The Horn List = >I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. > I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail >William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. >They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They >attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are >tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine >tuning screws on string instruments. > >Anyone know where I can find such a thing? They are listed on the Osmun web site. See http://store.osmun.com/browse.cfm/4,103.html -- Jonell Lindholm Reisterstown, MD USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
Valerie, Alexander makes these little gadgets. You can get them online at Ken Pope's web site http://poperepair.com/ Just look under the accessories section. I'm sure you can also get them at other sites (i.e. Osmun, etc.) Rick -- Original message -- From: "Valerie WELLS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. > I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail > William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. > They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They > attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are > tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine > tuning screws on string instruments. > > Anyone know where I can find such a thing? > > Valerie > > (BTW, Gail was INCREDIBLE at the UPS Brassworks.) > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/gators5%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
I do the same thing with braces rubber bands. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Valerie WELLS Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:52 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??) I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine tuning screws on string instruments. Anyone know where I can find such a thing? Valerie (BTW, Gail was INCREDIBLE at the UPS Brassworks.) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/barbara_rutledge%40berea.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning slide markers (??)
I don't know what these are called & I can't find them anywhere I've looked. I'm trying to find a source to buy the cool little gadgets I saw on Gail William's horn Saturday. I didn't get a chance to ask her about them. They're little metal bands, about 7 to 9 mm wide (less than 1/4 inch). They attach to the tuning slide to mark it where you've tuned it. They are tightened in place with a small screw that is turned by hand like the fine tuning screws on string instruments. Anyone know where I can find such a thing? Valerie (BTW, Gail was INCREDIBLE at the UPS Brassworks.) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning
While I basically agree with you, I will play Devil's Advocate (as if we didn't have enough lawyers). The human being is the animal that can get used to anything. As a result, many people find even temperament "right" and just temperament "wrong." So these people's bodies accept only even tempered tuning, probably at the expense of higher stress levels. I once quit a high level community chorus partly because the director insisted on even tempered thirds. I didn't care for the stress. She, by the way, had perfect pitch, which defined for her where the pitch of a given note should be, regardless of the key. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Physically, we don't really have a choice about intonation. Our ears > create overtones based on whole number multiples of whatever frequency is > being sounded. We can't escape that. This was understood as far back as the > ancient Greeks. That's why an in-tune interval is so satisfying. Our bodies > are not constructed to be able to accept tempered tuning! > > - Steve Mumford > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] tuning
Physically, we don't really have a choice about intonation. Our ears create overtones based on whole number multiples of whatever frequency is being sounded. We can't escape that. This was understood as far back as the ancient Greeks. That's why an in-tune interval is so satisfying. Our bodies are not constructed to be able to accept tempered tuning! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning
Even aside from the tuning considerations, different horns sound better on certain notes using what might be considered unusual fingerings or sides of the horn - I am thinking of the g just above the staff...on my Paxman 70A, much better sound, substance, and even tuning on (low) f horn than b. Fred - Original Message - From: "John Dutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Memphis Hornlist" Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:02 PM Subject: re: [Hornlist] tuning Some further thoughts on the tuning issue. Sometimes a particular horn requires a particular tuning solution. For instance, I have an Alexander 103 that I always play the c#2 on the f horn 1&2 especially in lyrical passages. It is better in tune and makes for a more legato line even switching to b horn on either side of the c#. My other Alex 103 and my Elkhart 8D's don't have this quirk. Additionally, if you have tuned your horn in a particular way for any length of time likely you will require a period of adjustment to blow the notes down the center of the slot (providing that you have made the horn more in tune with itself and not less). Finally, remember that one must utilize the double horn for the tool that it is. Once you have mastered using BOTH sides of the horn in ALL registers you can pick and choose what works best for you. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbcglobal.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
re: [Hornlist] tuning
Some further thoughts on the tuning issue. Sometimes a particular horn requires a particular tuning solution. For instance, I have an Alexander 103 that I always play the c#2 on the f horn 1&2 especially in lyrical passages. It is better in tune and makes for a more legato line even switching to b horn on either side of the c#. My other Alex 103 and my Elkhart 8D's don't have this quirk. Additionally, if you have tuned your horn in a particular way for any length of time likely you will require a period of adjustment to blow the notes down the center of the slot (providing that you have made the horn more in tune with itself and not less). Finally, remember that one must utilize the double horn for the tool that it is. Once you have mastered using BOTH sides of the horn in ALL registers you can pick and choose what works best for you. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
re: [Hornlist] tuning
Ron wrote: However the g through c on the f horn don't "sound" as good as the same notes on the Bb side (where I've been playing them in the past) Will those f horn notes get better with practice using them? ** I believe what you are noticing is the increased amount of overtones in the f horn notes. In that octave there are something on the order of 6-10 more overtones per note when using the f horn vice the b horn. What this means is the sound is more complex utilizing the f horn and this is what you are interpreting as not "sounding" as good. It may not sound as clear to you initially but that is just not being used to using the f horn in that range. Caesar LaMonaca told me of a particular concert run he did back in the 60's in Houston. They were playing Brahms' Academic Festival Overture. The third horn at the time played primarily on the b horn in all registers. The conductor stopped rehearsal three or four times complaining that he couldn't get the "sound" that he wanted for a particular passage in the Brahms. Caesar leaned over and told the third horn to use the f horn for all the notes in question. The next time through the conductor's face lit up with a smile. Somehow the more complex sound gave the appropriate sound which I'm sure Prof Pizka will agree with. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] tuning
To get my horn as closely in tune as possible in the center of pitches, I must play second line g through c on the f side of a conn 8d. Also third valve Bb horn on the fourth line d. The third valve Bb horns sounds pretty good. However the g through c on the f horn don't "sound" as good as the same notes on the Bb side (where I've been playing them in the past) Will those f horn notes get better with practice using them? Thanks for your help. Ron ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] tuning, solfege etc.
Simon Varnam wrote: "T3" ? Have I missed something? It means Thumb-3rd valve [Thumb=horn in Bb] I've seen this abbreviation used several times. - - - I wish also answer to Orlando Pandolfi. Up to a few years ago, serious music studies in Italy could only be done at the Conservatory or privately; now there is a variety of public and private schools. But in any case, if you want to get a Diploma, then the programs are standard, established by law: besides the main instrument class, you have compulsory courses in theory and solfege (3 years, including all seven clefs, spoken and sung solfege, musical dictation), harmony, history of music. These are just the basics, common to all kind of studies. So, if you are not willing to study all this stuff seriously, you know that you are not going to be a serious musician. Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] tuning
There is no reason to finger the d2 (2nd line from top) on the Bb-horn except it is within a technical passage. As the d2 is the 9th available note on the naturalhorn scale, it is a most lucid note & should be used. But too many players play it on the bb-horn instead, quite stubborn, isn´t it ? You are absolutely right with F0. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Varnam Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 12:51 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] tuning > date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:12:20 +0100 > from: "Hans.Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > subject: RE: [Hornlist] Playing in Tune > > First, get your horns tuned & (most important) the valve slides > adjusted accordingly. Would you expand on this a bit please? What's the best way to check my slides are correctly tuned? And over the widest possible range? What do you do about the flatness of a written D fingered F1? I use F0 and a bit of hand. Many of the players around me use (or are instructed to use) B3 to avoid the sharpness of B12. Is this valid? Simon ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] tuning
date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:12:20 +0100 from: "Hans.Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: RE: [Hornlist] Playing in Tune First, get your horns tuned & (most important) the valve slides adjusted accordingly. Would you expand on this a bit please? What's the best way to check my slides are correctly tuned? And over the widest possible range? What do you do about the flatness of a written D fingered F1? I use F0 and a bit of hand. Many of the players around me use (or are instructed to use) B3 to avoid the sharpness of B12. Is this valid? Simon ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A"
Last time I heard them live was 20 years ago here in Munich. So it seems they have progressed. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aleks Ozolins Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 10:22 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A" Hans, Last time I checked, Boston Symphony tuned significantly higher than 440... Am I wrong? Anyone? Aleks Ozolins NYC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A"
Hans, Last time I checked, Boston Symphony tuned significantly higher than 440... Am I wrong? Anyone? Aleks Ozolins NYC - Original Message - From: "Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 5:03 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A" But even in the US most real professional orchestras tune higher than 440, except (as far as I know from listening live) Boston Symphony, thus the darker sound. Just listen to their recordings & compare with European Orchestras (Munich, Berlin, Vienna, Milano, Paris, London, Stockholm, Helsinki, Moscow) or Japan (NHK, NJPO). A=440 is obsolete in most areas of the world. It has become reality after the years. Travelling conductors contributed to that situation. They also contributed to the unbearable uniformity of the orchestras sound wise, with a few exceptions, the super class orchestras, who kept their character more or less struggling for it. Amateur & semi professional orchestras in the regions & their lower class conductors (I did not say inferior musicians) know often everything much better & stuck with the old tuning & the often dull sound. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 6:08 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A" US Orchestras tune to 440. Many orchestras shift to 442 by the end of the concert though. Loren \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Price Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:55 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A" Dear listers: I've been out of the mainstream of orchestral playing for several years and wonder whether orchestras in the U.S. still use A=440 or have they been shifting to A=442. Can anyone clue me in? James R. Price 2603 Fairmont Rd. Montgomery, AL 36111 334-281-2532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/loren%40mayhe ws.us ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/aleksozolins%40hotmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A"
But even in the US most real professional orchestras tune higher than 440, except (as far as I know from listening live) Boston Symphony, thus the darker sound. Just listen to their recordings & compare with European Orchestras (Munich, Berlin, Vienna, Milano, Paris, London, Stockholm, Helsinki, Moscow) or Japan (NHK, NJPO). A=440 is obsolete in most areas of the world. It has become reality after the years. Travelling conductors contributed to that situation. They also contributed to the unbearable uniformity of the orchestras sound wise, with a few exceptions, the super class orchestras, who kept their character more or less struggling for it. Amateur & semi professional orchestras in the regions & their lower class conductors (I did not say inferior musicians) know often everything much better & stuck with the old tuning & the often dull sound. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Loren Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 6:08 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A" US Orchestras tune to 440. Many orchestras shift to 442 by the end of the concert though. Loren \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Price Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:55 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A" Dear listers: I've been out of the mainstream of orchestral playing for several years and wonder whether orchestras in the U.S. still use A=440 or have they been shifting to A=442. Can anyone clue me in? James R. Price 2603 Fairmont Rd. Montgomery, AL 36111 334-281-2532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/loren%40mayhe ws.us ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A"
In a message dated 9/4/2005 12:08:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: US Orchestras tune to 440. Many orchestras shift to 442 by the end of the concert though. Mary Gingrich was complaining to me once that when ever her husband, Dan, played one of her horns he left all the slides pushed in, because the CSO tunes to A=446. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A"
US Orchestras tune to 440. Many orchestras shift to 442 by the end of the concert though. Loren \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Price Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:55 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A" Dear listers: I've been out of the mainstream of orchestral playing for several years and wonder whether orchestras in the U.S. still use A=440 or have they been shifting to A=442. Can anyone clue me in? James R. Price 2603 Fairmont Rd. Montgomery, AL 36111 334-281-2532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/loren%40mayhews.us ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning pitch of "A"
Dear listers: I've been out of the mainstream of orchestral playing for several years and wonder whether orchestras in the U.S. still use A=440 or have they been shifting to A=442. Can anyone clue me in? James R. Price 2603 Fairmont Rd. Montgomery, AL 36111 334-281-2532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning - mathematician or physicist on board?
We've all tuned only to be told we're 'flat/sharp. So we take our tuning slide and arbitrarily move it 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 inch in or out and call it 'good' but how much difference does this really make ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL? The same distance movement of a tuning slide will have a lesser influence on the 'f' side compared to the 'Bb' side compared to the 'f' alto side etc but in 'cent' or 'htz' what's the actual change per given distance on each length of tubing? Is their a mathematician or physicist on board? If so if you could show your 'work' as well so we can get an understanding of the 'why' it would be appreciated. Thanks, Jim ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning slide locks
The O rings are the cheapest solution, but they tend to move from where you put them as the slide is replaced. A better, but more expensive solution, is to purchase tuning ring locks from Osmun. He is out of stock at the moment, but I think he will be getting some more soon. Loren Mayhew \@() Finke Horns [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Campbell Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 1:13 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide locks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Does anyone KNOW where you can get tuning slide locks? If you just want something to keep your slides from pushing in too far, go to the hardware store and get some thin black rubber O-rings. Get ones that fit snugly over the legs of your tuning slides without sliding around *too* easily. Just slide them to the right spot. If your slides fall out, get a competent repair person to expand the slides so they will fit correctly. Greg ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lorenmayhew%40comcast.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning slide locks
One consideration about the slide locks - especially for the main tuning slide - is to verify that the horn will fit in its case with the slide(s) pulled. With my horn & case, if I do not push-in the main tuning slide the horn does not go into the case properly - but I don't use that slide for emptying water anyway... Jay Kosta Endwell NY ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning slide locks
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone KNOW where you can get tuning slide locks? If you just want something to keep your slides from pushing in too far, go to the hardware store and get some thin black rubber O-rings. Get ones that fit snugly over the legs of your tuning slides without sliding around *too* easily. Just slide them to the right spot. If your slides fall out, get a competent repair person to expand the slides so they will fit correctly. Greg ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning slide locks
Does anyone KNOW where you can get tuning slide locks? Osmuns and Dillons aren't carrying them as a rule. Dillon's told me they only come to them from Alexander and only when an order of horns come in. I'm thinking there must be another avenue to pursue getting these. Any solid suggestions? thanks, Jim ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
> My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull > out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main > tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i > should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. You've had plenty of other people point out the idiocy of that advice, and suggest how far the tuning slides should be pulled out. (But do check with your teacher if that is *really* what he said.) I'll just add an anecdote from a recent orchestral course I was on. One of the other horn players who had started learning as an adult was playing with all the valve slides pushed all the way in. Of course, almost everything he played was horribly sharp. He was trying to compensate (not all that successfully) and in doing so, was clenching his throat a lot when playing in the higher register, which meant that not only was he playing out of tune, but also his tone sounded strangled and he was cracking a lot of notes through trying to lip them down. I left it a day or two (I was new to that orchestra and didn't want to put people's noses out of joint), and then quietly suggested that the tuning slides were causing him problems, and described what I saw of his throat and why it was happening. He had had no idea what he was doing wrong. With his agreement, I adjusted the valve slides on both F & Bb sides to a better position. I then suggested that he make a conscious effort to avoid tightening his throat, and provide more support from the diaphragm especially on higher notes. The improvement in tuning and reduction in cracked notes was immediate & dramatic. The tone quality also improved noticably right away, and got better still as the week went on, as he gained in confidence that he could centre notes and still have them sound in tune. He noticed the difference in tone as well. Later, he asked for suggestions for exercises that would help him improve further. I suggested long notes and slurring exercises pitched generally in the upper half of the treble clef, played slowly enough to allow him to concentrate on tone quality and the relaxation of his throat. He also said he thought he would get some additional lessons, and wondered about getting a new horn. He'd seen my Alex 103 and decided he liked the tone I made from it. I suggested that he invest first in the lessons and get the best he could out of his existing horn, and then think about an upgrade if he still thought it necessary. Regards Jonathan West ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
Benno, first we have to balance both sides of the horn. The next step is it, to adapt it to the piano or strings or oboe by pulling out or pushing in the main tuning slide. Many horns have just the main tuning slide before the entrance of the lead pipe into the valve section & the other tuning slide for the F extension. Alex 103 has the other short tuning slide at the large change valve, but here the adaptation possibilities are very limited. == ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
Hallo Hans, Reading again what I wrote, I can see that it was easily misunderstood. I meant only the first Main Tuning slide (the one straight after the Mouthpipe) pushed in all the way, the F and B Slides pulled out more to compensate, and all the othzer Valveslides in usual, sensible positions which anyone would approve of. I can see that this possibly wouldn't work on my Horn in the USA or England because the Bb Slide is quite short and allready rather far out. I think leaving in the main Slide all the way improves the response of my Instrument, but perhaps this is really just the Superstition of which you write. So in fact, I believe we agree, mainly. Liebe Grüße, Benno Heinemann On Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 12:45 AM, Hans Pizka wrote: Hello Benno, verzapf doch nicht diesen Unsinn, bitte. The main tuning slides need to be pulled out, as the horn is designed to fit different environment. Temperature has a certain influence to tuning. Orchestra tradition is different in the world. USA orchestras have a lower "a" than European orchestras. And these orchestras have even a lower "a" than in Vienna. A pulled out slide CANNOT cut out some unevenness. In contrary it produces some unevenness in the tube, - like a little step. Just imagine a larger tube & a smaller tube inside. Think about the mechanical function of two tubes, when one tube sticks inside the other & is pulled out a bit. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
Leaving all the Slides in is certainly not good Advice. I can think of one or two Exceptions of Professionals who play well who do this, but not for a student who may not have developed strength or good Ears to play all the Notes in tune in spite of it. I like to push the main Slide all the way in, and then tune the F and B Slides down a little accordingly. I think it cuts out some unevenness just after the Leadpipe. Frank Lloyd told me this. (I believe this is not possible on some Horns where the F and B Horns are difficult to tune together) Greetings, Benno Heinemann On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 08:16 PM, william bamberg wrote: That advice is so bad that you should seek another teacher. Having the slides tuned by an experienced player, if you're not ready to do it, is the proper first step to learning how to do it for yourself. I play several horns regularly and find that I need to tune each horn as close as possible to a standard so that my tendency to lip notes is consistent from horn to horn. Although an electronic tuner doesn't really tune the horn, certain patterns are easily remembered and set. Often, the player prefers my settings to theirs because they've never given it much thought. Julius Pranevicius wrote on 5/3/2004, 10:03 AM: My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. I tuned my horn following the article in february's Horn Call and for Bb horn there was about 1cm, and for F - 1,5-2cm. Is it normal? And what do you think about tuning the horn, adjusting valve slides? What methods of tuning you know and preffer?? Thanks __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/wunderhorn%40freenet.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
Hello! Horn Call editor Bill Scharnberg has performed a great service to all the learning young hornists by reprinting the Stephen Seiffert article "On Tuning The Double Horn." It is an excellent article and I have been advising its use by students for at least 30 years. Follow it and you should be pleased with the results. It will get the instruments into a reasonable pitch placement whereby you can then PLAY the horn in tune. No, it won't be perfectly in tune, but it will be tuned to a practical temperament that the player can control, use his/her ear and fit it nicely with an ensemble. (Note: tuners provide a tempered scale that is simply equally out of tune for every note. It is a guide only to a pitch center for A=440, for instance. Use your ears and learn to listen.) CORdially, Mansur's Answers On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 01:03 PM, Julius Pranevicius wrote: My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. I tuned my horn following the article in february's Horn Call and for Bb horn there was about 1cm, and for F - 1,5-2cm. Is it normal? And what do you think about tuning the horn, adjusting valve slides? What methods of tuning you know and preffer?? Thanks __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pmansur%40bellsouth.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
If you would read tzhe answers you receive here on the list, you would know the right way to tune the horn. I repeat it here, you have to use the best in tune pitches of both sides to tune according to the "a" form the piano. Play the (concert) f1, which is our c2 in the 2nd space from top or 3rd space from below. Do not bend the tone by the lips or by the use of the right hand in the bell. Listen to concert "a" & play "concert "f" - on the Bb-side. Repeat that process on the F-side. You get from F-side to Bb-side by pushing the thumb valve, if the horn is set in F/Bb. Or you get from Bb-side to F-side by pushing the thumb valve, if the horn is set as Bb/F. The tuning works with the main tuning slides, which are: Main tuning on the Bb-side: the main tuning slide is part of the first branch of the horn. The other slide on the same side but to the right of the main tuning slide is the tuning slide for the F-side. If this is done, both sides are basically tuned. Now tune the valve slides after the approximate rule: 1st valve pulled out circa 10-12 mms, 2nd valve : 6 - 8 mms, 3rd valve : 12 mms. The upper series of slides are for the F-horn, the lower series is for the Bb-horn. Here the slides should be pulled out about 1 - 2 mms less each than the upper series. If one of the valve combinations 12 or 23 produce too many missed notes, try to adjust the slides a bit. It will work. Tell your teacher, that he or she is a complete idiot, according to the advise given to you. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
Hello Benno, verzapf doch nicht diesen Unsinn, bitte. The main tuning slides need to be pulled out, as the horn is designed to fit different environment. Temperature has a certain influence to tuning. Orchestra tradition is different in the world. USA orchestras have a lower "a" than European orchestras. And these orchestras have even a lower "a" than in Vienna. But the horns should fit all three regions, which means main tuning slides be pushed in much for Vienna, pulled out much for the use in the USA. But all within the limitations of one or 1 1/2 centimeters (main tuning slide). A pulled out slide CANNOT cut out some unevenness. In contrary it produces some unevenness in the tube, - like a little step. Just imagine a larger tube & a smaller tube inside. Think about the mechanical function of two tubes, when one tube sticks inside the other & is pulled out a bit. Ooops, I know about the German schooling quality. Natural science classes . Basic common knowledge please, please. No wonder people believe on superstition, reading in the palm, believing the stars , etc. And the few "Professionals" playing with all slides in, are using a very strong VIBRATO, where intonation means nothing anyway, as the pitch shifts around permanently. I know these players very well. Once in my master class, a student came to me with his horn, all slides pushed in completely. I asked him: why. He responded that his idols did the same. So I told him, that he had just one single choice: he should continue following his idol but never expecting a job as a horn player - and never wasting my time again -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Benno Heinemann Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 10:21 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] tuning the horn Leaving all the Slides in is certainly not good Advice. I can think of one or two Exceptions of Professionals who play well who do this, but not for a student who may not have developed strength or good Ears to play all the Notes in tune in spite of it. I like to push the main Slide all the way in, and then tune the F and B Slides down a little accordingly. I think it cuts out some unevenness just after the Leadpipe. Frank Lloyd told me this. (I believe this is not possible on some Horns where the F and B Horns are difficult to tune together) Greetings, Benno Heinemann On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 08:16 PM, william bamberg wrote: > That advice is so bad that you should seek another teacher. Having the > slides tuned by an experienced player, if you're not ready to do it, is > the proper first step to learning how to do it for yourself. I play > several horns regularly and find that I need to tune each horn as close > as possible to a standard so that my tendency to lip notes is > consistent > from horn to horn. Although an electronic tuner doesn't really tune > the > horn, certain patterns are easily remembered and set. Often, the > player > prefers my settings to theirs because they've never given it much > thought. > > Julius Pranevicius wrote on 5/3/2004, 10:03 AM: > >> My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull >> out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main >> tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i >> should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. >> >> I tuned my horn following the article in february's >> Horn Call and for Bb horn there was about 1cm, and for >> F - 1,5-2cm. Is it normal? And what do you think about >> tuning the horn, adjusting valve slides? What methods >> of tuning you know and preffer?? >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> __ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs >> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover >> ___ >> post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> set your options at >> http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com >> > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/wunderhorn%40freenet.de > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
In a message dated 03/05/2004 19:17:21 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull > out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main > tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i > should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. That advice is so bad that you should seek another teacher. If that really is the advice that has been given then I would agree, but I am always careful to be sure that the teacher has been correctly quoted - If I had said half the things claimed of me by pupils I would deserve to be flogged through the streets of Manchester with a saxophone round my neck (For example - "Mr Yates says that if I play a trumpet all my teeth will fall out".) All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg" http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
Amen! The teacher can't be very experienced to have given that advice. A good place to start when learning how to tune your horn is the Farkas book. Fred william bamberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That advice is so bad that you should seek another teacher. Having the slides tuned by an experienced player, if you're not ready to do it, is the proper first step to learning how to do it for yourself. I play several horns regularly and find that I need to tune each horn as close as possible to a standard so that my tendency to lip notes is consistent from horn to horn. Although an electronic tuner doesn't really tune the horn, certain patterns are easily remembered and set. Often, the player prefers my settings to theirs because they've never given it much thought. Julius Pranevicius wrote on 5/3/2004, 10:03 AM: > My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull > out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main > tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i > should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. > > I tuned my horn following the article in february's > Horn Call and for Bb horn there was about 1cm, and for > F - 1,5-2cm. Is it normal? And what do you think about > tuning the horn, adjusting valve slides? What methods > of tuning you know and preffer?? > > Thanks > > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbcglobal.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
That advice is so bad that you should seek another teacher. Having the slides tuned by an experienced player, if you're not ready to do it, is the proper first step to learning how to do it for yourself. I play several horns regularly and find that I need to tune each horn as close as possible to a standard so that my tendency to lip notes is consistent from horn to horn. Although an electronic tuner doesn't really tune the horn, certain patterns are easily remembered and set. Often, the player prefers my settings to theirs because they've never given it much thought. Julius Pranevicius wrote on 5/3/2004, 10:03 AM: > My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull > out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main > tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i > should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. > > I tuned my horn following the article in february's > Horn Call and for Bb horn there was about 1cm, and for > F - 1,5-2cm. Is it normal? And what do you think about > tuning the horn, adjusting valve slides? What methods > of tuning you know and preffer?? > > Thanks > > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
Two points here: First, there is no textbook measurement. Tuning differs not only player to player, horn to horn, but often, what piece you are playing. Valve combinations should not be completely set, as many intonation issues, especially when playing in a section, can be rectified with matching valve combinations. It also depends on how in tune each horn (Bb or F)is in different ranges. You theoretically should be able to tune your written first space F both open Bb side and first valve F side. That is a good start. If you have no separate Bb tuning slide, tune the open F (Bb side) with the main tuning slide, and use the valve slide to match the first valve F on the f side. Try as best you can to line up the third space C on both horns by using the main F tuning slide (playing around with the first valve F slide to keep the F's in tune) The rest of it should be done by ear. Be very careful relying on a tuner as there is a difference between tempered and just intonation. Orchestra conductors make a huge mistake by re-taking an "A" when there are intonation problems in the brass. Pitch should be determined first and foremost by the key of the piece you are playing. Stay flexible, and make sure you play a horn that will move with you when you need to. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Julius Pranevicius Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 1:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] tuning the horn My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. I tuned my horn following the article in february's Horn Call and for Bb horn there was about 1cm, and for F - 1,5-2cm. Is it normal? And what do you think about tuning the horn, adjusting valve slides? What methods of tuning you know and preffer?? Thanks __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning the horn
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > What typw horn do you have? i have Yamaha 667VS __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] tuning the horn
My new teacher said that it is not neccesary to pull out valve slides for new horn at all(only the main tuning slide should be adjusted). He said that i should adapt myself to horn, not the horn for myself.. I tuned my horn following the article in february's Horn Call and for Bb horn there was about 1cm, and for F - 1,5-2cm. Is it normal? And what do you think about tuning the horn, adjusting valve slides? What methods of tuning you know and preffer?? Thanks __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
No, that's an order of magnitude smaller. Herb Foster --- Robert Dickow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Herb, > > Did you correct for expansion of the horn itself at higher temperatures? > > Bob Dickow > > - Original Message - > From: "Herbert Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 9:28 AM > Subject: RE:[Hornlist] tuning > > > > I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my > emouchure. > > Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg > C) > > increases the speed of sound by 5%. On a 9 foot horn (Bb horn) that's 6 > inches, > > or a slide pull of 3 inches (7.5 cm). Another 1 inch (2.5 cm) is required > on > > the F tuning slide. I don't know about your 8D, but mine couldn't handle > that. > > And outside temperatures vary by more than that. If you only have to move > the > > slide 1 cm, you are also correcting with your hand and embouchure. > > > > The speed of sound varies as the square root of the absolute temperature. > To > > get the absolute temperature, add 273 to degrees C or add 460 to degrees > F. > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
Herb, Did you correct for expansion of the horn itself at higher temperatures? Bob Dickow - Original Message - From: "Herbert Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 9:28 AM Subject: RE:[Hornlist] tuning > I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my emouchure. > Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg C) > increases the speed of sound by 5%. On a 9 foot horn (Bb horn) that's 6 inches, > or a slide pull of 3 inches (7.5 cm). Another 1 inch (2.5 cm) is required on > the F tuning slide. I don't know about your 8D, but mine couldn't handle that. > And outside temperatures vary by more than that. If you only have to move the > slide 1 cm, you are also correcting with your hand and embouchure. > > The speed of sound varies as the square root of the absolute temperature. To > get the absolute temperature, add 273 to degrees C or add 460 to degrees F. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE:[Hornlist] tuning
I had to pull the slide out because of the laws of physics, not my emouchure. Increasing the temperature from 40 deg F to 100 deg F (4 deg C to 33 deg C) increases the speed of sound by 5%. On a 9 foot horn (Bb horn) that's 6 inches, or a slide pull of 3 inches (7.5 cm). Another 1 inch (2.5 cm) is required on the F tuning slide. I don't know about your 8D, but mine couldn't handle that. And outside temperatures vary by more than that. If you only have to move the slide 1 cm, you are also correcting with your hand and embouchure. The speed of sound varies as the square root of the absolute temperature. To get the absolute temperature, add 273 to degrees C or add 460 to degrees F. Herb Foster --- John Dutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hans wrote: > If you had to pull the slide out more than that, I would check the > embouchure, if you played with too stressy embouchure, which causes such > pitch problems. Were you playing with more relaxed embouchure, you would > avoid this kind of problems better. > > Well, exposure to sunshine during the day would also affect the face & > lip muscles, even before you ever begin to warm up for the performance. > So I would recommend for the next such occasion, to avoid being exposed > to the sun before the performance. A similar effect counts during winter > time. > > * > I completely agree that someone who has the crooks pulled excessively is > probably playing with a tense face. People are often amazed at how > little the crooks need to be pulled if the embouchure is relaxed. Not > to start the whole "how we tune" thread again, I can't count the times I > have had a student go through a process to tune the horn to itself and > then return the following week with the slides all willy nilly. Of > course they forgot how to breathe and use their air properly over that > same week too. Coincidence? I think not. > > When I was in the Marines we played outside frequently-most of the time > on the march. It is important to heed Hans' warning regarding sun > exposure. A chapstick with some sunblock was a necessity in southern > California (and a good brief flexibility warm up/down). > > I know Herb's question was directed at 8d's, but just as my two 8d's > play different and sit pitchwise in different tendencies (1959 & 1969) > my two Alexanders have similar pitch direction (approx 197? & 1991). > The older horns in both catagories naturaly sit at a lower pitch than > the newer models of same brand (Cabbage?). Of course this discussion is > only an amusement as the bottom line remains-play in tune and sound good > with whatever equipment is in your hands at the time. > > The Jack Attack! > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
Actually I thought it was cute. But I didn't get the vitamin E and
Schumann. Nu? Except possibly the concertstuch--meaning concert stab, and
vitamin E to heal the wounds of the high Es. Is that it?
Nevermore, and before,
S
- Original Message -
From: "David Goldberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, John Dutton wrote:
>
> > So I would recommend for the next such occasion, to avoid being exposed
> > to the sun before the performance.
>
> It is known that exposure to sunlight causes the body to produce vitamin
> D. Maybe that will solve the problem of hitting the Haydn high D that
> came up recently.
>
> And vitamin E for Schumann?
>
>
> { David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
> { Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
> { Ann Arbor Michigan }
>
>
> ___
> post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> set your options at
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net
___
post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
I, of course, would recommend staying out of the Sun to avoid sunstroke.
S
- Original Message -
From: "David Goldberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: RE:[Hornlist] tuning
> On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, John Dutton wrote:
>
> > So I would recommend for the next such occasion, to avoid being exposed
> > to the sun before the performance.
>
> It is known that exposure to sunlight causes the body to produce vitamin
> D. Maybe that will solve the problem of hitting the Haydn high D that
> came up recently.
>
> And vitamin E for Schumann?
>
>
> { David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
> { Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
> { Ann Arbor Michigan }
>
>
> ___
> post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> set your options at
http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net
___
post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE:[Hornlist] tuning
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, John Dutton wrote:
> So I would recommend for the next such occasion, to avoid being exposed
> to the sun before the performance.
It is known that exposure to sunlight causes the body to produce vitamin
D. Maybe that will solve the problem of hitting the Haydn high D that
came up recently.
And vitamin E for Schumann?
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
___
post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE:[Hornlist] tuning
Hans wrote: If you had to pull the slide out more than that, I would check the embouchure, if you played with too stressy embouchure, which causes such pitch problems. Were you playing with more relaxed embouchure, you would avoid this kind of problems better. Well, exposure to sunshine during the day would also affect the face & lip muscles, even before you ever begin to warm up for the performance. So I would recommend for the next such occasion, to avoid being exposed to the sun before the performance. A similar effect counts during winter time. * I completely agree that someone who has the crooks pulled excessively is probably playing with a tense face. People are often amazed at how little the crooks need to be pulled if the embouchure is relaxed. Not to start the whole "how we tune" thread again, I can't count the times I have had a student go through a process to tune the horn to itself and then return the following week with the slides all willy nilly. Of course they forgot how to breathe and use their air properly over that same week too. Coincidence? I think not. When I was in the Marines we played outside frequently-most of the time on the march. It is important to heed Hans' warning regarding sun exposure. A chapstick with some sunblock was a necessity in southern California (and a good brief flexibility warm up/down). I know Herb's question was directed at 8d's, but just as my two 8d's play different and sit pitchwise in different tendencies (1959 & 1969) my two Alexanders have similar pitch direction (approx 197? & 1991). The older horns in both catagories naturaly sit at a lower pitch than the newer models of same brand (Cabbage?). Of course this discussion is only an amusement as the bottom line remains-play in tune and sound good with whatever equipment is in your hands at the time. The Jack Attack! [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning - the real story
Paxmaha wrote The history of standard tuning is a long and complex one, more so than one would think at first glance. There are actual histories of tuning and temperament, quite specialized reading, but not all that dull, surprisingly. I don't know that it was the Versailles treaty, but there was definitely an international agreement that standardized A=440hz as standard. For several various reasons, both traditional and contemporary, pitch has almost uniformly risen to 442, then 443, and today it can be as high as A=446 in some orchestras. Higher string tensions on modern violins, the desire for more overall "brightness" in the tone, are all supporting reasons for the rise in pitch. *** According to a secret memo recently leaked to the Washington Post, the U. S. Government has decided to withdraw from the Versailles Tuning Treaty, thus privatizing concert pitch in this country. According to Anthony Werkmeister VI, the Secretary of the Department of Intonation, the government's heavy-handed control of tuning under the previous administration has lead to a dangerous situation which can only be remedied by a restoration of pitch to market forces. Whether this decision will reduce the number of fires that have been plaguing US orchestras during the last several years, as Werkmeister claims, remains to be seen. Gotta go, Cabbage ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] tuning
This is a double post, so please ignore the redundancy... The history of standard tuning is a long and complex one, more so than one would think at first glance. There are actual histories of tuning and temperament, quite specialized reading, but not all that dull, surprisingly. I don't know that it was the Versailles treaty, but there was definitely an international agreement that standardized A=440hz as standard. For several various reasons, both traditional and contemporary, pitch has almost uniformly risen to 442, then 443, and today it can be as high as A=446 in some orchestras. Higher string tensions on modern violins, the desire for more overall "brightness" in the tone, are all supporting reasons for the rise in pitch. To digress just a little... My personal thoughts are mixed, I believe that things get subtly more difficult for the winds as pitch rises. Also, and this is just a personal opinion, the ability of an orchestra to have a "signature" sound and to maintain that quality is diminished as well. When one listens to a period instrument ensemble that uses the old pitch of A=435 or so, one can start to hear various differences in pieces in different keys. Much like the old concepts of temperament that were espoused for each mode or key center. It may indeed be only a psychological quirk of mine, (I do have an obsession with renaissance and baroque period performances, think Palestrina, Gabrieli, Schuetz, and the like,) but I find it increasingly hard to feel or hear much that distinguishes one recording from another, insofar as timbre and unique tone quality is considered. Vienna of course one can tell from the brass and horn playing, but try doing a blind listening ID of Tschaik ovsky's 1812 as done by the Berlin Philharmonic, London Symphony, and the Boston Symphony. It is getting harder and harder to do so. So, although it is a current trend in modern musical life, I am on the side of A=440 as a general maximum, and certainly don't see where it would be a bad thing to try things a little bit lower, especiall when doing the high horn parts in Haydn and Bach. Paxmaha - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning question
There are some thoughts on the subject: 1. If you are playing a soli, either in unison or harmony with another instrument(s), focus on playing the soli in tune and ignore the rest of the ensemble if it is out of tune. 2. Speak with the player of the grossly out of tune note(s) during break to see if you can fix the intonation problems together. If this doesn't work, speak to your section leader or your conductor as appropriate about ways to approach a solution. 3. When playing unison or chords with another hornist or instrumentalist, and the intonation is so out of whack that you can't find each other then consider opting to not play your part rather than have it sound offal. Later revert to step 2. 4. When an intonation problem develops; try to make sure your intonation is correct before working out the problem with others. 5. If the individual out of tune happens to be your section leader, well you may just have to match the leader; maybe later you can tactfully work out the problem privately if you have sufficient rapport. 6. Whatever you do, the idea is to make the music sound the best your group is capable of; it is not to start a war over who is right. Once a war is started nothing is right anymore. Comments? Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning question
Is that an advantage or disadvantage when the orchestra is in tune with itself, but not with your learned pitch? I assume that perfect pitch is even tempered (showing my ignorance here). If so, how do you handle tuning to a chord, e.g. the third, which is 13 cents flat? Herb Foster --- Lanetra Carther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I can't really give advice about tuning to the orchestra, because I know > first hand that the orchestra pitch can be horribly out of tune. I have > perfect pitch, so I have an advantage in that area. > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning question
It isn't for tuning the orchestra to the horns??? - Original Message - From: "Loren Mayhew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 8:49 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Tuning question >I thought the whole purpose of "tuning the orchestra" was to tune the > oboe to the orchestra! :-) > > Loren Mayhew > \@() > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (520) 403-6897 > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/cairnman%40wisetec.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning question
I thought the whole purpose of "tuning the orchestra" was to tune the oboe to the orchestra! :-) Loren Mayhew \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning question
I can't really give advice about tuning to the orchestra, because I know first hand that the orchestra pitch can be horribly out of tune. I have perfect pitch, so I have an advantage in that area. From: Anne & Larry Brunelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Tuning question Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:13:48 -0500 What I used to do with pretty good success was to match the offender's pitch and then start "pulling" to the correct pitch. Very many people will come right along with you, apparently without even noticing that they're doing so. This often even works with those sitting above you. And some won't. Especially if they're invincibly flat. Can't have everything. I also think I remember that if the first trumpet and the first horn agree on a consistent pitch and are firm about it (and not flat), the orchestra as a whole will tend to "believe" that pitch better than the oboe's (especially if he IS flat or inconsistent). It also helps if the individual sections (at least the HORN section) think tuning together BEFORE a rehearsal is a good idea. FWIW, most of the time, when *I* am irritated by an intonation problem, so are the others involved, and would be happy to get rid of those beats. It goes without saying (or should) that we are trying to make the pitch BETTER (closer to the orchestra's standard, whether 440, 443, whatever). Larry Brunelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Here's a serious question: I'd be interested in hearing other > people's survival techniques when the pitch in the orchestra is > terrible. In other words, how to keep yourself sounding as good as > possible while everyone around you is trying to rip the mouthpiece > right off your face by playing out of tune, half the orchestra sharp, > the other half flat. Well, ok let's call that the worst case > scenario. How about if the pitch is not that bad, but maybe one > person in the group is off enough that you can't really go with them > but you have some important stuff to play with them? Let's assume for > the sake of the discussion, that the situation can't be changed > through talking to the other players involved and that your pitch is, > of course, perfect - it's those other numbskulls causing all the > trouble. I'm interested in what can be done while actually playing > to keep focused and to keep from getting thrown off by bad pitch. > Whaddya say? - Steve Mumford ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/cheraine20%40hotmail.com _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning question
That sounds like my 2nd horn! But seriously, this is the exact scenario of my wind ensemble. When it comes to tuning across the group, I try to tune to those who I know who play well in tune. That is, I know our first flute has good pitch, but our piccolo is less capable. Let's say I double or harmonize a part with an awful saxophone and we do NOT match. I will listen for the other members of the chord for reference. It helps to sort of isolate that saxophonists pitch from the rest of us, bringing their bad intonation out(hopefully to the ear of the conductor) or it makes the saxophonist notice his own intonation and correct it him/herself. I can think of one incident where I was playing the third of the chord with other instruments, and it was too high, throwing the chord out of tune. I lowered my pitch to bring it "intune" with the chord, but out of tune with the ensemble. He noticed the horrible gnashing sound and the first thing he said was "the third of the chord is too high" Having said that, I am usually more suspect my own intonation than others, but on rare occasions my ear works well and I am the "correct" one. Chris -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Here's a serious question: I'd be interested in hearing other people's > survival techniques when the pitch in the orchestra is terrible. In other > words, how to keep yourself sounding as good as possible while everyone > around you > is trying to rip the mouthpiece right off your face by playing out of tune, > half the orchestra sharp, the other half flat. > Well, ok let's call that the worst case scenario. How about if the pitch > > is not that bad, but maybe one person in the group is off enough that you > can't really go with them but you have some important stuff to play with > them? > Let's assume for the sake of the discussion, that the situation can't be > changed through talking to the other players involved and that your pitch is, > > of course, perfect - it's those other numbskulls causing all the trouble. > I'm > interested in what can be done while actually playing to keep focused and to > keep from getting thrown off by bad pitch. > Whaddya say? - Steve Mumford > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning question
What I used to do with pretty good success was to match the offender's pitch and then start "pulling" to the correct pitch. Very many people will come right along with you, apparently without even noticing that they're doing so. This often even works with those sitting above you. And some won't. Especially if they're invincibly flat. Can't have everything. I also think I remember that if the first trumpet and the first horn agree on a consistent pitch and are firm about it (and not flat), the orchestra as a whole will tend to "believe" that pitch better than the oboe's (especially if he IS flat or inconsistent). It also helps if the individual sections (at least the HORN section) think tuning together BEFORE a rehearsal is a good idea. FWIW, most of the time, when *I* am irritated by an intonation problem, so are the others involved, and would be happy to get rid of those beats. It goes without saying (or should) that we are trying to make the pitch BETTER (closer to the orchestra's standard, whether 440, 443, whatever). Larry Brunelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Here's a serious question: I'd be interested in hearing other > people's survival techniques when the pitch in the orchestra is > terrible. In other words, how to keep yourself sounding as good as > possible while everyone around you is trying to rip the mouthpiece > right off your face by playing out of tune, half the orchestra sharp, > the other half flat. Well, ok let's call that the worst case > scenario. How about if the pitch is not that bad, but maybe one > person in the group is off enough that you can't really go with them > but you have some important stuff to play with them? Let's assume for > the sake of the discussion, that the situation can't be changed > through talking to the other players involved and that your pitch is, > of course, perfect - it's those other numbskulls causing all the > trouble. I'm interested in what can be done while actually playing > to keep focused and to keep from getting thrown off by bad pitch. > Whaddya say? - Steve Mumford ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Tuning question
I have had that situation recently. The first horn was seriously flat in the high register, the second horn flat in all registers. I was playing third. I tuned to the first horn whenever we were both playing, on the principle that the section ought to be in tune with itself as far as possible. That meant that I had to adjust my tuning down whenever his part went into the upper register. Whenever 3rd horn played alone, I let my pitch rise to the rest of the orchestra. Bloody hard work it was too! Jonathan West ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning question
Here's a serious question: I'd be interested in hearing other people's survival techniques when the pitch in the orchestra is terrible. In other words, how to keep yourself sounding as good as possible while everyone around you is trying to rip the mouthpiece right off your face by playing out of tune, half the orchestra sharp, the other half flat. Well, ok let's call that the worst case scenario. How about if the pitch is not that bad, but maybe one person in the group is off enough that you can't really go with them but you have some important stuff to play with them? Let's assume for the sake of the discussion, that the situation can't be changed through talking to the other players involved and that your pitch is, of course, perfect - it's those other numbskulls causing all the trouble. I'm interested in what can be done while actually playing to keep focused and to keep from getting thrown off by bad pitch. Whaddya say? - Steve Mumford ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning
Phil Farkas' article on tuning still works. Find it at http://www.osmun.com/reference/tuninghorn.htm. Bob Osmun www.osmun.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Tuning
I thought my Yahoo email address was subscribed to the Yahoo list but it was not, but I did upload the Lawson tuning guide to the Yahoo hornlist so take a look there if interested. Chris __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] tuning in general & feeling
This is the initial chord, held for one measure, so nobody has played before. The prominent note is the concert "bb". A perfect fifth with the "eb", off course, the main note of the chord. But still, the "bb" is the note of tension, which releases to "cb". One has to sit as the top of the chord, commanding it with all the tension & all the intensity possible. Do not mistake intensity with loudness, please. Even a passage in the piano dynamic can be full of power (intensity). This is some of the secrets in music, dividing better musicians from less good musicians. There are a lot of musicians, reproducing written music just two-dimensional, but a few who can do the same three-dimensional and extreme few who do it four-dimensional, the fourth dimension to be "feeling". . "Scott Pappal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Professor Pizka: > > I believe that Howard (and others) was refering > strictly to the NAMING of a chord as opposed to the > TUNING of a chord. In the chord you quote from > Goetterdaemmerung, do you call this a bb minor chord? > I certainly don't - its an e-flat minor triad, so > built from the "bottom up." Of course, you can I both > know that no one cares about theory while playing - in > this case, we have to "tune" from the top down, > because those who've played before us already have set > the intonation. So we tune in this case from the top > down. > > I'm not arguing with you - just trying to clarify some > comments - you know language, it always gets in the > way, especially over a written media such as the > internet. > > Cordially Yours, Scott > > P.S. We're having a "heat wave" of 20 degrees here in > Pennsylvania. > > --- "Prof.Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Goetterdaemmerung first chord is fixed from top: > > > > bb - gb -- eb. > > > > The upper note bb forces the whole chord. > > .. > > > > "Howard Sanner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > "Prof.Hans Pizka" wrote: > > > > > > > > I would apprecciate it very much, if less > > experienced or less "exposed" players would hold > > back their insufficient or inadequate or exaggerated > > advise & let the professionals provide their method. > > It would be wise for the majority of horn players to > > follow the advise given by these experts without any > > comments but just questions for clarification if > > necessary. > > > > > > > > Keep in mind, that certain chords are built from > > top instead of the common rule, that things go from > > bottom upwards. > > > > > > OK, in the spirit of the first quoted paragraph, > > would you > > > please explain what you mean by chords that are > > built from the > > > top down? Are you talking about inversions? > > Otherwise I haven't a > > > clue what you're getting at. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Howard Sanner > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > > > Horn mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > > > > > > > > > -- > > Prof.Hans Pizka > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel.: +49 89 903 9548 - > > www.pizka.de (horn site) with connections to > > www.pizka.de/Pizka-music.html (publications) - > > www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm (instruments, > > mouthpieces) > > www.pizka.de/PizWrHorn.htm (Viennese Horns) - > > www.pizka.de/mpiece.htm (mouthpieces) > > www.pizka.de/Pizka-travel.htm (pictures, stories, > > experiences from my travel) - open soon > > > > mail is virus checked > > ___ > > Horn mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > -- Prof.Hans Pizka email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel.: +49 89 903 9548 - www.pizka.de (horn site) with connections to www.pizka.de/Pizka-music.html (publications) - www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm (instruments, mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/PizWrHorn.htm (Viennese Horns) - www.pizka.de/mpiece.htm (mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/Pizka-travel.htm (pictures, stories, experiences from my travel) - open soon mail is virus checked ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] tuning in general & in particular
Professor Pizka: I believe that Howard (and others) was refering strictly to the NAMING of a chord as opposed to the TUNING of a chord. In the chord you quote from Goetterdaemmerung, do you call this a bb minor chord? I certainly don't - its an e-flat minor triad, so built from the "bottom up." Of course, you can I both know that no one cares about theory while playing - in this case, we have to "tune" from the top down, because those who've played before us already have set the intonation. So we tune in this case from the top down. I'm not arguing with you - just trying to clarify some comments - you know language, it always gets in the way, especially over a written media such as the internet. Cordially Yours, Scott P.S. We're having a "heat wave" of 20 degrees here in Pennsylvania. --- "Prof.Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Goetterdaemmerung first chord is fixed from top: > > bb - gb -- eb. > > The upper note bb forces the whole chord. > .. > > "Howard Sanner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > "Prof.Hans Pizka" wrote: > > > > > > I would apprecciate it very much, if less > experienced or less "exposed" players would hold > back their insufficient or inadequate or exaggerated > advise & let the professionals provide their method. > It would be wise for the majority of horn players to > follow the advise given by these experts without any > comments but just questions for clarification if > necessary. > > > > > > Keep in mind, that certain chords are built from > top instead of the common rule, that things go from > bottom upwards. > > > > OK, in the spirit of the first quoted paragraph, > would you > > please explain what you mean by chords that are > built from the > > top down? Are you talking about inversions? > Otherwise I haven't a > > clue what you're getting at. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Howard Sanner > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ > > Horn mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > > > > > -- > Prof.Hans Pizka > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel.: +49 89 903 9548 - > www.pizka.de (horn site) with connections to > www.pizka.de/Pizka-music.html (publications) - > www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm (instruments, > mouthpieces) > www.pizka.de/PizWrHorn.htm (Viennese Horns) - > www.pizka.de/mpiece.htm (mouthpieces) > www.pizka.de/Pizka-travel.htm (pictures, stories, > experiences from my travel) - open soon > > mail is virus checked > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] Tuning
Best answer ever to this thematic. Bravo Lawrence. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > In a message dated 28/01/2003 18:27:25 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > > > Yo! I heard her do this little 'circus trick' as she called it during her > > masterclass at the Banff workshop. She pushed the main slides in all the > > way > > and played notes on pitch; then pulled them out as far as possible and > > played > > the exact same notes, still on pitch. (And, yes, I can do that, also! And > > I > > know lots of players who can do it.) > > I know lots of players who can do that and play just as out of tune no matter > where the slide is. > > All the best, > > Lawrence > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > -- Prof.Hans Pizka email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel.: +49 89 903 9548 - www.pizka.de (horn site) with connections to www.pizka.de/Pizka-music.html (publications) - www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm (instruments, mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/PizWrHorn.htm (Viennese Horns) - www.pizka.de/mpiece.htm (mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/Pizka-travel.htm (pictures, stories, experiences from my travel) - open soon mail is virus checked ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] tuning in general & in particular
Dear friends, this is all about very funny, your comments on this. As long as you ae the only play who adjusts himself or herself to a piano, it does not matter how fast & how you adjust your tuning. But if you play in the orchestra or the wind ensemble, you have absolutely not the time to bend all the pitches or lip them up, but still keeping an even tone quality. This is absolute nonsense. The woodwinds will kill you. Or are your all ears ruined by the time ? If a slide, by some accidental push (mostly the first slide - but this does not touch most of you as you use the Bb-side mostly, right) is pushed in quite far, it disturbes enormously and it cannot be lipped down enough. If tone quality does not count for you, well, lip things up or down, never mind, but never try this while Maazel, Muti, Ozawa or other famous conducters are in front of the orchestra. You will not be there the next rehearsal, be sure. And the circus trick, well, pushing in the slides . Did you check, if these "artists" pushed ALL slides in, of both sides ? Pushing the F-slides in but playing on the Bb-side, well, it works without any extra effort, a big surprise for those who stuck with the Bb-side or the F-side. And how about compensating wrong slide position by alternated fingering ? It works also, but nobody (really hard working in the orchestra) has the time to prepare such clowneries, except a few soloists, for whon a sound without the disturbances (extra noises) does not matter much. Try once to adjust pitch defficiencies by bending, lipping-up while playing Till or Heldenleben or Salome. Hallelujah, I have seen horses vomite .. Ear training, ear training & ear training again - that is the only method. But , to repeat myself once more, I brought the whole issue up to remind the players to tune according to concert "a" but using the best note on the horn, the concert "f" - our c2, 2nd space from top - in a relation of a Third. Never tuning the horn by using "concert a" on the horn. That was it. Anything else is just excuse, excuse or lack of knowledge, lack of experience. During an audition, if the Mozart concerto is played & all notes played with B1 (Bb-horn first valve) are just a bit flat, you are gone the first round, really, no joke. It does not matter how virtuoso you play or how safe you play. You disqualified yourself by the insufficient tuning abilities, by the missing ear training. Believe me, please. We just had "audition weeks" (solo oboe, solo clarinet, deputy first horn, first violin, solo bassoon - all since Jan.1st, 2003), so I might have refreshed my knowledge about this problem. And last, I do not play just for fun, I make a living by playing horn, on principal position since 1957, in top orchestras since 1962; so no fun more, but professionalism. Well, I have fun while playing the horn, still now, and could not survive in my position without fun. But the rules are not fun. They are very hard, very strict. Just one person not following these rules, the orchestra is ruined. I have to clarify again: The horn has to be tuned basically, not for every note. This would not be possible. It does not matter if the valve slides are for a single millimeter more in or out, never. But they have to be set in a way, that half step, full step, 1 1/2 steps are correct, at least for the "center" of the horns average compass - written c2 for the F-horn, resulting in concert f1. As I pointed out before, the dilemma is with the inadequate training of horn players & their improper equipment (for the particular player), resulting in too flat higher pitches & too sharp lower pitches. If they now start, adjusting the slides for every note, an impossible task, the end up with the usual nightmare & should not wonder, that ever responsible emsemble leader is trying to replace them by better "tuned" players. The truth, even it hurts, but the truth. Kendall, are you on the list, kick them at the right place, - you know where, to push them back on track or at least on track where they have not been yet. Sorry folks, sometimes it seems as "throwing pearls before swine ", if you preach & preach & preach, but nobody believes, but still keeps things going the same problems on and on and on. But life could be much easier .. .. "Bill Gross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Several folks have commented on good musicians ability to play a horn in > tune with the tuning slide all the way in or all the way out. I take it > from this statement that what these horn players are doing is adjusting the > way they play using what they hear from the horn and the other > instrument(s). > > It would seem that most competent players would be able to adjust the > intonation of their instruments by the way the play, not adjusting slides. > This raises a question, how much of this adjustment is a conscience effort > and how much an automatic acti
Re: [Hornlist] tuning in general & in particular
Goetterdaemmerung first chord is fixed from top: bb - gb -- eb. The upper note bb forces the whole chord. .. "Howard Sanner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > "Prof.Hans Pizka" wrote: > > > > I would apprecciate it very much, if less experienced or less "exposed" players >would hold back their insufficient or inadequate or exaggerated advise & let the >professionals provide their method. It would be wise for the majority of horn players >to follow the advise given by these experts without any comments but just questions >for clarification if necessary. > > > > Keep in mind, that certain chords are built from top instead of the common rule, >that things go from bottom upwards. > > OK, in the spirit of the first quoted paragraph, would you > please explain what you mean by chords that are built from the > top down? Are you talking about inversions? Otherwise I haven't a > clue what you're getting at. > > Thanks. > > Howard Sanner > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > Horn mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn > -- Prof.Hans Pizka email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel.: +49 89 903 9548 - www.pizka.de (horn site) with connections to www.pizka.de/Pizka-music.html (publications) - www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm (instruments, mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/PizWrHorn.htm (Viennese Horns) - www.pizka.de/mpiece.htm (mouthpieces) www.pizka.de/Pizka-travel.htm (pictures, stories, experiences from my travel) - open soon mail is virus checked ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
Re: [Hornlist] tuning in general & in particular
"Prof.Hans Pizka" wrote: > > I would apprecciate it very much, if less experienced or less "exposed" players >would hold back their insufficient or inadequate or exaggerated advise & let the >professionals provide their method. It would be wise for the majority of horn players >to follow the advise given by these experts without any comments but just questions >for clarification if necessary. > > Keep in mind, that certain chords are built from top instead of the common rule, >that things go from bottom upwards. OK, in the spirit of the first quoted paragraph, would you please explain what you mean by chords that are built from the top down? Are you talking about inversions? Otherwise I haven't a clue what you're getting at. Thanks. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Horn mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/listinfo/horn
