Re: [HOT] Addresses in Africa

[john whelan]

The very crude way is to pull in the poi into JOSM then save the .osm file
and bring it up in something like notepad++.

lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'

Do we need all the digits for a a reasonable amount of accuracy?

It certainly looks like a fairly simple JOSM plug in could be built that
could display or drop something into a cut and paste style window.

I think I'd prefer some sort of check digit though to catch transpositions.

Thanks John

On 10 September 2016 at 10:57, john whelan  wrote:

> Yes but it uses Google and Google often doesn't cover the parts of the
> world we're interested in.  Besides which it locks you in by using words.
> It also requires lots of java script and appears to need an online
> connection to get the address.  Plus it takes 20-30 seconds to generate
> one.  People generally get impatient with web sites after having to wait
> two seconds.
>
> I wonder if we can directly support latitude and longitude better.  A JOSM
> plugin perhaps?  OSMAND support on poi?  A cross hatch pointer on the web
> page tiles?
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 10 September 2016 at 09:21, Alessandro Fanna  wrote:
>
>> Hi all, just to put some more entropy in the discussion I add this nice
>> and open reverse geocode addressing:
>> http://xaddress.org/
>>
>> Hope not getting too much off topic.
>>
>> Alessandro Fanna
>>
>> Il 10/set/2016 12:46, "Pete Masters"  ha
>> scritto:
>> >
>> > This article made me think of this thread http://www.domain.c
>> om.au/news/letter-with-map-instead-of-address-still-gets-del
>> ivered-in-iceland-20160905-gr90u1/
>> >
>> > Pete
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Rory McCann 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 31/08/16 13:37, john whelan wrote:
>> >> > ​There has been considerable talk about addressing schemes for areas
>> >> > that do not have street names etc.  Three words etc.
>> >>
>> >> Y'know you don't have to go as far as Africa to find countries with
>> >> address "systems" like that. I give you: Ireland. In rural areas (many)
>> >> streets have no names, and many houses have no numbers, using house
>> >> names instead. Lowest level administrative areas (townlands) are often
>> >> used (but not always accurately) to construct an address.
>> >>
>> >> About 30% of rural addresses are non-unique. i.e. The postman has to
>> >> know things from the surname on the letter.
>> >>
>> >> A new postcode system has been released recently, which gives every
>> >> letter box a unique & random code. But it'll be years before that's
>> used
>> >> a lot.
>> >>
>> >> Alas, Ireland's drink monoculture means Ivan's beer address system
>> >> probably wouldn't work. :)
>> >>
>> >> Read more:
>> >>
>> >>  * https://www.autoaddress.ie/products/irish-addressing
>> >>  *
>> >> http://www.dataireland.ie/News/Pages/Tricky-Irish-Addresses-
>> Why-do-Irish-addresses-pose-so-many-problems
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Pete Masters
>> > Missing Maps Project Coordinator
>> > +44 7921 781 518
>> >
>> > missingmaps.org
>> >
>> > @pedrito1414
>> > @theMissingMaps
>> > facebook.com/MissingMapsProject
>> >
>> > ___
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>> >
>>
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Re: [HOT] Addresses in Africa

[Rory McCann]

On 31/08/16 13:37, john whelan wrote:
> ​There has been considerable talk about addressing schemes for areas
> that do not have street names etc.  Three words etc.

Y'know you don't have to go as far as Africa to find countries with
address "systems" like that. I give you: Ireland. In rural areas (many)
streets have no names, and many houses have no numbers, using house
names instead. Lowest level administrative areas (townlands) are often
used (but not always accurately) to construct an address.

About 30% of rural addresses are non-unique. i.e. The postman has to
know things from the surname on the letter.

A new postcode system has been released recently, which gives every
letter box a unique & random code. But it'll be years before that's used
a lot.

Alas, Ireland's drink monoculture means Ivan's beer address system
probably wouldn't work. :)

Read more:

 * https://www.autoaddress.ie/products/irish-addressing
 *
http://www.dataireland.ie/News/Pages/Tricky-Irish-Addresses-Why-do-Irish-addresses-pose-so-many-problems




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Re: [HOT] Addresses in Africa

[john whelan]

I think it adds to the discussion and enriches it.  At least it shows in
Mali there are street names and numbers even if they are treated somewhat
casually.

Thanks John

On 1 September 2016 at 15:05, Jorieke Vyncke 
wrote:

> Not a real contribution to the discussion; but just sharing because it's a
> fantastic story...
> http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33808629
>
> 2016-09-01 15:46 GMT+02:00 john whelan :
>
>> I think what I'm after is to avoid fragmentation with multiple ways to
>> give someone an address.
>>
>> openlocationcode.com looks attractive and esay to implement, open and
>> free.  It groups locations so has some of the advantages of postcodes but I
>> don't think it has redundancy in the address nor does it have a check digit
>> to avoid two numbers being transposed.
>>
>> To add support for it would need something added to JOSM to show the
>> openlocationcode address, Nominatim to be able to search for one, and
>> probably osmand to show them and search for them.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1 September 2016 at 05:01, Christian Ledermann <
>> christian.lederm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My experiences in Kenya are:
>>>
>>> For individual areas the postcode is mostly unknown.
>>> If you want to receive a letter you have to rent a PO Box at a post
>>> office (which then also may serve as your 'address')
>>> which has a postcodes
>>>
>>> Postcodes are (mainly) useful for post offices (in Kenya).
>>>
>>> House numbering is vastly inconsistent, and 'non linear'.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 31 August 2016 at 20:08, john whelan  wrote:
>>> > Basically Longitude and Latitude?  Transpose two numbers and its
>>> easily done
>>> > and you have no address.  Having some redundancy in the address is
>>> helpful.
>>> >
>>> > Cheerio John
>>> >
>>> > On 31 August 2016 at 15:00, yo paseopor  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> What about a geo referenced and scalable system like...coordinates?
>>> Postal
>>> >> codes are based on inventaries of provinces,states,cities,streets...
>>> Ok,
>>> >> when you don't have anything like this of the inventary is not
>>> correct or
>>> >> not well implemented what about something will never fail?
>>> (coordinates)
>>> >>
>>> >> yopaseopor
>>> >>
>>> >> ___
>>> >> HOT mailing list
>>> >> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > HOT mailing list
>>> > HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Christian Ledermann
>>>
>>> Newark-on-Trent - UK
>>> Mobile : +44 7474997517
>>>
>>> https://uk.linkedin.com/in/christianledermann
>>> https://github.com/cleder/
>>>
>>>
>>> <*)))>{
>>>
>>> If you save the living environment, the biodiversity that we have left,
>>> you will also automatically save the physical environment, too. But If
>>> you only save the physical environment, you will ultimately lose both.
>>>
>>> 1) Don’t drive species to extinction
>>>
>>> 2) Don’t destroy a habitat that species rely on.
>>>
>>> 3) Don’t change the climate in ways that will result in the above.
>>>
>>> }<(((*>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
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Re: [HOT] Addresses in Africa

[Jorieke Vyncke]

Not a real contribution to the discussion; but just sharing because it's a
fantastic story...
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33808629

2016-09-01 15:46 GMT+02:00 john whelan :

> I think what I'm after is to avoid fragmentation with multiple ways to
> give someone an address.
>
> openlocationcode.com looks attractive and esay to implement, open and
> free.  It groups locations so has some of the advantages of postcodes but I
> don't think it has redundancy in the address nor does it have a check digit
> to avoid two numbers being transposed.
>
> To add support for it would need something added to JOSM to show the
> openlocationcode address, Nominatim to be able to search for one, and
> probably osmand to show them and search for them.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks John
>
>
>
> On 1 September 2016 at 05:01, Christian Ledermann <
> christian.lederm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My experiences in Kenya are:
>>
>> For individual areas the postcode is mostly unknown.
>> If you want to receive a letter you have to rent a PO Box at a post
>> office (which then also may serve as your 'address')
>> which has a postcodes
>>
>> Postcodes are (mainly) useful for post offices (in Kenya).
>>
>> House numbering is vastly inconsistent, and 'non linear'.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 31 August 2016 at 20:08, john whelan  wrote:
>> > Basically Longitude and Latitude?  Transpose two numbers and its easily
>> done
>> > and you have no address.  Having some redundancy in the address is
>> helpful.
>> >
>> > Cheerio John
>> >
>> > On 31 August 2016 at 15:00, yo paseopor  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What about a geo referenced and scalable system like...coordinates?
>> Postal
>> >> codes are based on inventaries of provinces,states,cities,streets...
>> Ok,
>> >> when you don't have anything like this of the inventary is not correct
>> or
>> >> not well implemented what about something will never fail?
>> (coordinates)
>> >>
>> >> yopaseopor
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> HOT mailing list
>> >> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > HOT mailing list
>> > HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Christian Ledermann
>>
>> Newark-on-Trent - UK
>> Mobile : +44 7474997517
>>
>> https://uk.linkedin.com/in/christianledermann
>> https://github.com/cleder/
>>
>>
>> <*)))>{
>>
>> If you save the living environment, the biodiversity that we have left,
>> you will also automatically save the physical environment, too. But If
>> you only save the physical environment, you will ultimately lose both.
>>
>> 1) Don’t drive species to extinction
>>
>> 2) Don’t destroy a habitat that species rely on.
>>
>> 3) Don’t change the climate in ways that will result in the above.
>>
>> }<(((*>
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
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Re: [HOT] Addresses in Africa

[john whelan]

I think what I'm after is to avoid fragmentation with multiple ways to give
someone an address.

openlocationcode.com looks attractive and esay to implement, open and
free.  It groups locations so has some of the advantages of postcodes but I
don't think it has redundancy in the address nor does it have a check digit
to avoid two numbers being transposed.

To add support for it would need something added to JOSM to show the
openlocationcode address, Nominatim to be able to search for one, and
probably osmand to show them and search for them.

Thoughts?

Thanks John



On 1 September 2016 at 05:01, Christian Ledermann <
christian.lederm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My experiences in Kenya are:
>
> For individual areas the postcode is mostly unknown.
> If you want to receive a letter you have to rent a PO Box at a post
> office (which then also may serve as your 'address')
> which has a postcodes
>
> Postcodes are (mainly) useful for post offices (in Kenya).
>
> House numbering is vastly inconsistent, and 'non linear'.
>
>
>
> On 31 August 2016 at 20:08, john whelan  wrote:
> > Basically Longitude and Latitude?  Transpose two numbers and its easily
> done
> > and you have no address.  Having some redundancy in the address is
> helpful.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> > On 31 August 2016 at 15:00, yo paseopor  wrote:
> >>
> >> What about a geo referenced and scalable system like...coordinates?
> Postal
> >> codes are based on inventaries of provinces,states,cities,streets...
> Ok,
> >> when you don't have anything like this of the inventary is not correct
> or
> >> not well implemented what about something will never fail? (coordinates)
> >>
> >> yopaseopor
> >>
> >> ___
> >> HOT mailing list
> >> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > HOT mailing list
> > HOT@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Christian Ledermann
>
> Newark-on-Trent - UK
> Mobile : +44 7474997517
>
> https://uk.linkedin.com/in/christianledermann
> https://github.com/cleder/
>
>
> <*)))>{
>
> If you save the living environment, the biodiversity that we have left,
> you will also automatically save the physical environment, too. But If
> you only save the physical environment, you will ultimately lose both.
>
> 1) Don’t drive species to extinction
>
> 2) Don’t destroy a habitat that species rely on.
>
> 3) Don’t change the climate in ways that will result in the above.
>
> }<(((*>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
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Re: [HOT] Addresses in Africa

[Christian Ledermann]

My experiences in Kenya are:

For individual areas the postcode is mostly unknown.
If you want to receive a letter you have to rent a PO Box at a post
office (which then also may serve as your 'address')
which has a postcodes

Postcodes are (mainly) useful for post offices (in Kenya).

House numbering is vastly inconsistent, and 'non linear'.



On 31 August 2016 at 20:08, john whelan  wrote:
> Basically Longitude and Latitude?  Transpose two numbers and its easily done
> and you have no address.  Having some redundancy in the address is helpful.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 31 August 2016 at 15:00, yo paseopor  wrote:
>>
>> What about a geo referenced and scalable system like...coordinates? Postal
>> codes are based on inventaries of provinces,states,cities,streets... Ok,
>> when you don't have anything like this of the inventary is not correct or
>> not well implemented what about something will never fail? (coordinates)
>>
>> yopaseopor
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>



-- 
Best Regards,

Christian Ledermann

Newark-on-Trent - UK
Mobile : +44 7474997517

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/christianledermann
https://github.com/cleder/


<*)))>{

If you save the living environment, the biodiversity that we have left,
you will also automatically save the physical environment, too. But If
you only save the physical environment, you will ultimately lose both.

1) Don’t drive species to extinction

2) Don’t destroy a habitat that species rely on.

3) Don’t change the climate in ways that will result in the above.

}<(((*>

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Re: [HOT] Addresses in Africa

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El onsdag 31. august 2016 08.29.01 CEST usted escribió:
> ​"bottle area codes"
> 
> I like the idea but [...] A bit like net neutrality I think postcode would 
> be more neutral.

I kinda disagree. Postcodes won't be neutral, because (as we've seen from 
previous conversations) post offices/agencies tend to squeeze money from that 
kind of data if they can.

Call me crazy, but I think beer (with local breweries and more than one brand, 
AFAIK) might be the most neutral commodity for this scenario, as it reaches 
and is demanded by illiterate population (unlike post!).


I'm thinking crazy experiments such as "beer census" - fill a form that comes 
with the beer cases, those get bundled up the hierarchy, then you compile the 
info, then you can send one free **addressed beer** back to everyone. All of a 
sudden you create a demand for addressability.


Of course, people in the ground will have the best knowledge, but I stand in 
my point: it's unwise to consider post offices/agencies the prime (or only) 
source for any kind of survey of area codes.


-- 
Iván Sánchez Ortega   


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