Re: [IAEP] [sugar] November conference (meeting notes)
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Yamandu Ploskonka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I might have hit with a generous donor that might pay my way... Could you confirm dates so they can get me tickets early while they are still less expensive? I would want to learn and share, and if possible/if there is interest work on Wetware issues, especially The Medium Is The Message as applied to teacher/client training I, Tomeu and I think David, booked our tickets for 16 - 23 Nov. Marco ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [sugar] Sugar on Edubuntu
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 12:36, Morgan Collett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 02:38, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 05.11.2008, at 13:55, David Farning wrote: .One sticking point was the availability of squeak on Ubuntu. If I remember this issue was beaten to death before I got involved with SL. I only remember discussion of getting it into Debian, not Ubuntu. Basically, even though the license issues are finally resolved, they did not want to have it in because they do not agree with its current development model: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-June/015479.html Ubuntu syncs from Debian during every development cycle, so if it's in debian we get it in Ubuntu with no extra work. The mail you reference doesn't give all the details but I think I remember the issue - building from source: Debian considers packages that can't build from source to be non-free. Thanks for the reminder of this issue - I'll take it up on the edubuntu list. Actually, on digging I found we have etoys and squeak-vm in Ubuntu, in multiverse - which is the non-free repository: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/squeak-vm, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/etoys In this state it's not distributable on official Ubuntu CDs, such as the Edubuntu CD, but it's easily installable. We'll work on fixing the non-free status in the next Ubuntu release cycle, if possible... Regards Morgan ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] etoys in Debian main (Re: [sugar] Sugar on Edubuntu)
Hi, On Thursday 06 November 2008 04:48, Walter Bender wrote: As of this summer, all of the code contained in our Squeak Etoys version 4.0 is covered by either the Apache 2.0 or MIT Licenses. Yup. Even for etoys 3.0.1916+svn132-2 licencing or copyright issues are _not_ the reason why its in Debians non-free repository and not in main. The reason is, that the Debian ftpmasters are (AIUI) of the opinion that etoys doesn't build from sources, as its shipped as binary objects, to make a long story short. (It has roughly been bootstrapped 14 times since 1977 or so.) It's on my todo list to file a proper bug in Debian about this soon. Actually, it's not really on my todo list, but _one out of two_ remaining emails from the time I used my inbox as a todo list... ;-) I plan to file this bug by preparing it on a wiki page (!) as I would like to presend the whole situation comprehensible and to the point. I will announce that page before I submit this bug here, stay tuned, but it probably will take some time still. If someone wants to start such a wiki page now, please go ahead. regards, Holger pgplercsNfzcV.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [sugar] Sugar on Edubuntu
From outside this all looks as though it might suffer from being a little too pedantic in adhering to definitional terms As an educator I know this software to be sweeter than most for teaching and learning of say, introductory programming.. The 'scratch' version is as sweet as anything for kids learning It feels as free and open as can be, in terms of what you can see and change and modify I'm not any smalltalk talk programmer, but i get how you can access the source code and make any change whatsoever at this level.. Still...take this as wild comment from a technically naïve educator who is biased towards what works for kids learning -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:iaep- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonas Smedegaard Sent: Thursday, 6 November 2008 10:31 PM To: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Subject: Re: [IAEP] [sugar] Sugar on Edubuntu -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 04:38:19PM -0800, Bert Freudenberg wrote: On 05.11.2008, at 13:55, David Farning wrote: .One sticking point was the availability of squeak on Ubuntu. If I remember this issue was beaten to death before I got involved with SL. I only remember discussion of getting it into Debian, not Ubuntu. Sigh. Yes, it is sometimes frustration to work on a brilliant distribution that is so frequently missing from the radar of others. :-( Basically, even though the license issues are finally resolved, they did not want to have it in because they do not agree with its current development model: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-June/015479.html Here is the contents of /usr/share/doc/etoys/README.non-free on Debian: Why is EToys in non-free? = EToys was rejected from inclusion in the Debian main archive, because the ftpmasters don't consider the sources as source. ;) Since we unsuccessfully tried to convince them that EToys belongs into main already and the time until Lenny will be frozen is short, I decided to upload it to non-free, for the benefit of the users (so they can simply use apt-get to install etoys, provided they have non-free in their sources), even though we believe it satisfies all the requirements of the DFSG [1] and policy [2]. For Lenny+1 we plan to convince the ftpmasters to accept it in main. Let me explain the source situation: EToys comes as an image, a snapshot of all objects, which is loaded into a squeakvm, modified in memory, and snapshotted to an image file again. This image cannot easily be rebuilt from pure source code, but the snapshots do contain all the source code. The image is the preferred form of modification for the EToys developer community, this is how they work [3]. The Etoys image is derived from a Squeak image which is derived from a Smalltalk image back to 1976, when the actual bootstrapping happened. This is in contrast to how some Lisps work, they do a lengthy bootstrap from source and then do a memory snapshot so they can skip the initialization at startup time. To modify that snapshot, one changes the code and rebuilds the snapshot. But in Smalltalk, to modify the snapshot all the source code tools patch live object memory directly. So we think this kind of source form is enough to satisfy the DFSG. Squeak source code in text form can be seen, shared and modified from within the squeakvm. That's what everybody does with Squeak source code. The changes are then either available as change sets or as Monticello packages (a version control system for Smalltalk code, see [4]), and can be distributed separatly or used to create derived versions of the modified blobs. But while this works for small changes, this isn't practical to rebuild a complete image. [1] http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines [2] file:///usr/share/doc/debian-policy/policy.html [3] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2008- May/128753.html [4] http://www.wiresong.ca/Monticello/ Holger Levsen, 2008-06-13 Kind regards, - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkS1YcACgkQn7DbMsAkQLhmJwCeOJt55cqlXM1xOLb/ImoaVSUF q5cAn18CV7rqdY4K8bDMl9onwvVlb09S =jH4J -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting
Re: [IAEP] [sugar] Sugar on Edubuntu
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 02:38, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 05.11.2008, at 13:55, David Farning wrote: .One sticking point was the availability of squeak on Ubuntu. If I remember this issue was beaten to death before I got involved with SL. I only remember discussion of getting it into Debian, not Ubuntu. Basically, even though the license issues are finally resolved, they did not want to have it in because they do not agree with its current development model: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-June/015479.html Ubuntu syncs from Debian during every development cycle, so if it's in debian we get it in Ubuntu with no extra work. The mail you reference doesn't give all the details but I think I remember the issue - building from source: Debian considers packages that can't build from source to be non-free. Thanks for the reminder of this issue - I'll take it up on the edubuntu list. Regards Morgan ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [sugar] Sugar on Edubuntu
At Thu, 6 Nov 2008 00:53:11 -0800, Bert Freudenberg wrote: On 06.11.2008, at 00:12, David Farning wrote: Do you know who I should talk to about requesting that http://www.squeak.org/SqueakLicense/ be update to reflect this information? Squeak (at squeak.org) and Etoys (at vpri.org / squeakland.org) are two different versions that were last merged at Squeak version 3.8. The full relicensing for now only applies to the Etoys version, but the squeak.org version will certainly follow soon. Yup. The license description for Etoys is available at: http://www.vpri.org/vp_wiki/index.php/Main_Page -- Yoshiki ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [sugar] Sugar on Edubuntu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 04:38:19PM -0800, Bert Freudenberg wrote: On 05.11.2008, at 13:55, David Farning wrote: .One sticking point was the availability of squeak on Ubuntu. If I remember this issue was beaten to death before I got involved with SL. I only remember discussion of getting it into Debian, not Ubuntu. Sigh. Yes, it is sometimes frustration to work on a brilliant distribution that is so frequently missing from the radar of others. :-( Basically, even though the license issues are finally resolved, they did not want to have it in because they do not agree with its current development model: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-June/015479.html Here is the contents of /usr/share/doc/etoys/README.non-free on Debian: Why is EToys in non-free? = EToys was rejected from inclusion in the Debian main archive, because the ftpmasters don't consider the sources as source. ;) Since we unsuccessfully tried to convince them that EToys belongs into main already and the time until Lenny will be frozen is short, I decided to upload it to non-free, for the benefit of the users (so they can simply use apt-get to install etoys, provided they have non-free in their sources), even though we believe it satisfies all the requirements of the DFSG [1] and policy [2]. For Lenny+1 we plan to convince the ftpmasters to accept it in main. Let me explain the source situation: EToys comes as an image, a snapshot of all objects, which is loaded into a squeakvm, modified in memory, and snapshotted to an image file again. This image cannot easily be rebuilt from pure source code, but the snapshots do contain all the source code. The image is the preferred form of modification for the EToys developer community, this is how they work [3]. The Etoys image is derived from a Squeak image which is derived from a Smalltalk image back to 1976, when the actual bootstrapping happened. This is in contrast to how some Lisps work, they do a lengthy bootstrap from source and then do a memory snapshot so they can skip the initialization at startup time. To modify that snapshot, one changes the code and rebuilds the snapshot. But in Smalltalk, to modify the snapshot all the source code tools patch live object memory directly. So we think this kind of source form is enough to satisfy the DFSG. Squeak source code in text form can be seen, shared and modified from within the squeakvm. That's what everybody does with Squeak source code. The changes are then either available as change sets or as Monticello packages (a version control system for Smalltalk code, see [4]), and can be distributed separatly or used to create derived versions of the modified blobs. But while this works for small changes, this isn't practical to rebuild a complete image. [1] http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines [2] file:///usr/share/doc/debian-policy/policy.html [3] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2008-May/128753.html [4] http://www.wiresong.ca/Monticello/ Holger Levsen, 2008-06-13 Kind regards, - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkS1YcACgkQn7DbMsAkQLhmJwCeOJt55cqlXM1xOLb/ImoaVSUF q5cAn18CV7rqdY4K8bDMl9onwvVlb09S =jH4J -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] November conference (meeting notes)
On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 5:22 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm fine with roadmap discussion/coordination personally, I prefer hard decision to happen in the mailing lists where everyone can participate. Yes, and where there is some time to marshall arguments and data. SJ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] November conference (meeting notes)
On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Contact people that offered housing to see if the offer is valid for the Sugar conference. (Marco) Hello, I updated the list. I removed Chris offer since I got no answer, feel free to add again with the requested details if you are still willing to host. We are low on housing, only one place free currently. Marco ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] An Interview with Bill Kerr on Scratch, Squeak OLPC Etoys in the Classroom
http://cegsa.editme.com/SecondaryClassroom Description via Bill's blog: http://billkerr2.blogspot.com Recently, Phil and Belinda, two Flinders University education students visited my year 10 class, interacted with the students and after lesson interviewed me. It was for a project for a Digital Media course run by Trudy Sweeney who is also currently President of the Computers in Education Group of South Australia (CEGSA) ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Wiki cleanup
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 4:51 PM, David Farning [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:56 AM, Simon Schampijer [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:56 PM, David Farning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Today I am finally getting to the long promised wiki cleanup. Why now? Three non-core contributors complained about the wiki this week:) How cool is that! Three new people were browsing the wiki and were engaged enough to send me, or a public list, an email about how much the wiki sucks. My self imposed tasks 1. Reorganization of the side bar. 2. Clean up internal team navigation and translation. 3. Add each team to the sidebar. Questions 1. Should we add a TestingTeam? 2. Should we rename bugsquad to QualityAssuranceTeam? 3. Should testing and QA be merged? If so, under what name? My preference would be for TestingTeam (merged). Marco Yes I prefer TestingTeam as well. The sidebar says TranslationTeam, in the name of consistency this should be Translation I think. QATeam is now Testing Team. As always, let me know if anything is screwed up. I don't completely trust my bot:( thanks david ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Sugar on Ubuntu - Summary
Yesterday we had a long thread about Sugar on Ubuntu which was helpful yet filled with misunderstandings. I hope to summarize yesterday's thread, clarify some misunderstandings, and determine what steps we should do next to help get squeak into Ubuntu Main. I have cced the participates from yesterday. Please correct or clarify as necessary. Edubuntu in Main- Edubutu developers are actively discussing if Edubuntu should be in main or universe. If it is main, there would be more formal support. If it is in Universe, there are fewer sized restrictions and a larger body of potential developers can work on Universe packages. Squeak in Edubuntu- The presence of Squeak is not a blocker. While squeak is a high value package it is not required in Sugar. Squeak in Ubuntu Main- Having Squeak in Ubuntu Main is not a blocker. Edubuntu is based off of Ubuntu Main but can pull in packages from universe. The advantages of being in Main are: Greater level of support from Ubuntu and Canonical developers - Packages in Main are fully support for the life for the releases Ease of distribution - Installation just works. No need to install Squeak separately. Variants of Squeak - 1. Squeak as represented at www.squeak.org 2. Squeak Etoys as represented at www.squeakland.org 'Squeak Etoys is built on top of Squeak and modifies Squeak itself in the process. As I understand it Yoshiki and his group have modified it sufficiently that the only code remaining is considered to be from those persons who have signed a relicensing agreement. A version reflecting this has been or soon will be released, a version of 'Squeak Etoys' that is.' Sugar uses Squeak Etoys. Openness Issues- There are two separate openness issues that downstream _may_ have. License-- All problematic code has been rewritten in Squeak Etoys 4.0. From a licensing perspective the code is clean. Image-- Currently, Squeak Etoys is distributed as an image or snapshot rather than source code. While distributing images is the standard work flow for Squeak Etoy developers, they are difficult for down stream developers to work with. thanks david ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Sugar on Ubuntu - Summary
On 06.11.2008, at 16:50, David Farning wrote: Currently, Squeak Etoys is distributed as an image or snapshot rather than source code. This is misleading. Etoys comes with full source code, nothing is held back. While distributing images is the standard work flow for Squeak Etoy developers, they are difficult for down stream developers to work with. This is not true. It is *not* difficult to work with images, it is what every Squeak developer uses. - Bert - ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Mediawiki update
Hello, I've upgraded the MediaWiki instance of wiki.sugarlabs.org to 1.13.2. Please, let me know if something got accidentally broken. On Luke's request, I also used this opportunity to install the Renameuser extension! Enjoy. -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://www.codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://www.sugarlabs.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Sugar bug tracker now available
Hello, I've just asked Ivan to setup a bug tracker for us on solarsail. This is intended for filing Sugar bugs unrelated to any particular platform, and for code reviews. At the moment, the system has no registered components or bug states. Please let us know what components should be created. In addition, developers -- please register accounts and let us know what your usernames are so we can give you administrative access. Thanks, -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://www.codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://www.sugarlabs.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Sugar bug tracker now available
Bernie Innocenti wrote: I've just asked Ivan to setup a bug tracker for us on solarsail. This is intended for filing Sugar bugs unrelated to any particular platform, and for code reviews. And it lives here: http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ Enjoy, -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://www.codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://www.sugarlabs.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
