Re: [IAEP] (Please read) Re: Proposed Trac - Launchpad migration
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 03:36, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: On 1 Nov 2009, at 22:06, Chris Ball wrote: Dear Sugar folks, This mail didn't get any replies, but it's important to know whether people agree with it before going ahead. So, please understand that: * bugs.sugarlabs.org is moving from Trac to Launchpad. Ouch, oh my that's a bolt from the blue, thanks for emailing! I had no idea this was really on the cards, just assumed it was some background noise/chatter from a few folks who never liked using trac. Personally I've ignored Launchpad as I don't have time to burn on yet another 'lets try some other misc thingamajig' cycle. FWIW, will likely ignore Launchpad for a number of months more even if we migrated yesterday. * Existing bug data will be imported, but the bug numbers won't be the same. So the git commit messages referencing trac bug tickets will be future information garbage, oh joy. * It will be hosted by Canonical externally, rather than by SL as Trac currently is. If any of these are not to your liking, the time to speak up is now, before it all happens. :) Not to my liking, but if some really smart/committed folks are willing to do the work, have it well tested, say this is really worth the pain, and don't mind some folks ignoring the move for a few months... Though, I would first really love to see a clear explanation of why this is a good idea, and how the move benefits us. +1 to have a precise blurb explaining explicitly why this is a good thing to do. All proposals should make explicit the resoning, risks, known controversies and any issues that the submitter anticipates are relevant to the discussion. Btw, I couldn't create an account in the testing instance, no emails seem to be sent. Regards, Tomeu -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [SLOBS] next SLOBs meeting reminder/agenda: 2009-10-30
Quick note: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Requesting_a_SLOBs_decision Better minutes/announcement-to-list/blog-post-to-Planet forthcoming, but I wanted to close the conversation loop here with the updated decision making procedure we came up with at Friday's SLOBs meeting. --Mel ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] 'apt-get install sugar-platform' available for Ubuntu9.10.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 01:02, David Farning dfarn...@sugarlabs.org wrote: After a couple of weeks of reading tutorials, help from Aleksey, and some Ubuntu developers there are Sugar packages available for Ubuntu 9.10. Just gave them a try and worked great, congrats all! Which are the next steps? Btw, why did we needed to build our own xulrunner? Regards, Tomeu For now, these packages are available on the Ubuntu-Sugarteam PPA (personal package archive) at https://launchpad.net/~sugarteam/+archive/0.86 . To use these packages, just add 'http://ppa.launchpad.net/sugarteam/0.86/ubuntu karmic main' to the end of /etc/apt/sources.list Ubuntu-Sugarteam -- Ubuntu-sugarteam mailing list ubuntu-sugart...@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-sugarteam -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] (Please read) Re: Proposed Trac - Launchpad migration
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 22:36, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: * Existing bug data will be imported, but the bug numbers won't be the same. So the git commit messages referencing trac bug tickets will be future information garbage, oh joy. As stated, there will be both a conversion table and a redirect service available for the considerable future. We already have fragmentation between SL bugs and OLPC bugs. Launchpad will allow us to keep our old bug numbers Is there anything else that would make this work better for everyone? An example of the redirection scheme: https://launchpad.net/sugar/+bug/slbugs1534 points to a page titled Bug #460049 (slbugs1534). We can change the nickname prefix to whatever we'd like. * It will be hosted by Canonical externally, rather than by SL as Trac currently is. If any of these are not to your liking, the time to speak up is now, before it all happens. :) Not to my liking, but if some really smart/committed folks are willing to do the work, have it well tested, say this is really worth the pain, and don't mind some folks ignoring the move for a few months... Though, I would first really love to see a clear explanation of why this is a good idea, and how the move benefits us. To quote Bernie, our system administrator and current manager of Sugar Labs' Trac instance: bernie: my #1 reason for switching is that our trac instance is a wreck and nobody wants to maintain it. bernie: me less than anyone else. it's an awful application to maintain... especially now that it is riddled by spammers Switching to Launchpad would free up admin time to work on improving other services, such as ASLO http://activities.sugarlabs.org and the wiki. Launchpad is already many times faster than the current Sugar Labs bug tracker, and Canonical has committed to add capacity as the service grows. In addition, Launchpad allows developers to manipulate bugs by email (a la bugs.debian.org), permitting developers to choose their own workflow. Launchpad also is better suited for multi-project collaboration, both within Sugarlabs and with other distributionshttps://edge.launchpad.net/+tour/bugs. We can easily track the status of bugs that affect both upstream Sugar and the Sugar packages in, say, Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, and Gentoo, all from the same page. We've been testing https://launchpad.net/soas Launchpad with the Sugar on a Stick project for a few months now, and it's been working pretty well. Finally, we would be able to migrate away from Launchpad at any time. Thanks, Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] (Please read) Re: Proposed Trac - Launchpad migration
I have no experience with Launchpad, but am often frustrated by the performance of SL Trac. At my office we switched from Trac to Redmine for internal project development, since Trac's development seems to have slowed to a crawl. Provided a high priority is placed on migrating bug numbers and keeping links to dev.sugarlabs.org working, I'm not opposed. I'll probably take Gary's approach and let the dust settle though. Now that 0.86 is out it's probably the best time to do this. Any chance OLPC would consider moving over too, so we could have true connections between OLPC and SL bugs? -Wade On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Luke Faraone l...@faraone.cc wrote: On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 22:36, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: * Existing bug data will be imported, but the bug numbers won't be the same. So the git commit messages referencing trac bug tickets will be future information garbage, oh joy. As stated, there will be both a conversion table and a redirect service available for the considerable future. We already have fragmentation between SL bugs and OLPC bugs. Launchpad will allow us to keep our old bug numbers Is there anything else that would make this work better for everyone? An example of the redirection scheme: https://launchpad.net/sugar/+bug/slbugs1534 points to a page titled Bug #460049 (slbugs1534). We can change the nickname prefix to whatever we'd like. * It will be hosted by Canonical externally, rather than by SL as Trac currently is. If any of these are not to your liking, the time to speak up is now, before it all happens. :) Not to my liking, but if some really smart/committed folks are willing to do the work, have it well tested, say this is really worth the pain, and don't mind some folks ignoring the move for a few months... Though, I would first really love to see a clear explanation of why this is a good idea, and how the move benefits us. To quote Bernie, our system administrator and current manager of Sugar Labs' Trac instance: bernie: my #1 reason for switching is that our trac instance is a wreck and nobody wants to maintain it. bernie: me less than anyone else. it's an awful application to maintain... especially now that it is riddled by spammers Switching to Launchpad would free up admin time to work on improving other services, such as ASLO and the wiki. Launchpad is already many times faster than the current Sugar Labs bug tracker, and Canonical has committed to add capacity as the service grows. In addition, Launchpad allows developers to manipulate bugs by email (a la bugs.debian.org), permitting developers to choose their own workflow. Launchpad also is better suited for multi-project collaboration, both within Sugarlabs and with other distributions. We can easily track the status of bugs that affect both upstream Sugar and the Sugar packages in, say, Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, and Gentoo, all from the same page. We've been testing Launchpad with the Sugar on a Stick project for a few months now, and it's been working pretty well. Finally, we would be able to migrate away from Launchpad at any time. Thanks, Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] What do I want Big Time To Be?
Caryl, I don't know what your budget is, but you can get a refurbished PC for under $100 here: http://www.pcsurplusonline.com/index.cfm I have bought several computers from this place. They are sold with no OS installed, sometimes with no hard drive, but generally they have a CD-ROM drive, a keyboard, and a mouse. These would make a pretty good demo machines, IMHO. I've been buying used IBM/Lenovo boxes for my own use and like them a lot. The Think Centre desktop model has a small form factor that would make it almost as handy for demonstrations as a laptop would be but would be more reliable and cost much less. (Generally speaking used laptops are no bargain). HP has a small form factor machine too, but I favor the IBM model. It's designed to be easy to work on without tools. James Simmons Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 11:30:53 -0800 From: Caryl Bigenho cbige...@hotmail.com Subject: [IAEP] What do I want Big Time To Be? To: IAEP SugarLabs iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Message-ID: snt118-w9460d098803f05f6947e8cc...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi All, I would like to be able to show them how it works on a MacBook (my machine) and on a PC (if someone would just tell me how to get one for very little $$$). I would like it to be stable software that runs on their choice of Live CD or USB stick. How much of this is real already? How much is in the dim and distant future? Send links! Caryl ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] (Please read) Re: Proposed Trac - Launchpad migration
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 09:19, Wade Brainerd wad...@gmail.com wrote: I have no experience with Launchpad, but am often frustrated by the performance of SL Trac. At my office we switched from Trac to Redmine for internal project development, since Trac's development seems to have slowed to a crawl. Provided a high priority is placed on migrating bug numbers and keeping links to dev.sugarlabs.org working, I'm not opposed. I'll probably take Gary's approach and let the dust settle though. Now that 0.86 is out it's probably the best time to do this. I've just confirmed with our contacts at Canonical that bug aliases will be created for all the old bugs, of the form sugarlabs- or sl-. Any chance OLPC would consider moving over too, so we could have true connections between OLPC and SL bugs? I don't think it's been discussed, but I'll forward it to the OLPC VIG. It is certainly more likely if the Sugar Labs migration works well. -- Luke Faraone http://luke.faraone.cc ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] 'apt-get install sugar-platform' available for Ubuntu9.10.
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com wrote: I also had a strange problem, which I replicated (sadly :)). When I launched Sugar for the first time (and I had the same Browse problem) and then closed it, I could use the track pad and keyboards, but the mouse clickers wouldn't work. Removing Sugar did not fix the problem. Both times, I had to reinstall Ubuntu. I am working on a Dell Latitude 2100. Everything else I have tried with Ubuntu has worked fine. For what it's worth. Gerald Browse doesn't load for me as well. When I use TurtleArt, it works fine, but upon exiting, it throws me out to GDM. Looks like we still have some X issues. Where do we report bugs? -- Sameer On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 7:05 PM, Dave Bauer dave.ba...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Ryan Kabir rka...@gmail.com wrote: For what it's worth - the install worked fine for me. Browse doesn't want to load, but I figure that's probably an issue on my part. I can confirm browse does not work for me either. I tried on 9.10 beta and a 9.10 final new install. I have not had a chance to collect the logs but I'll be doing that. Dave Awesome! Great work! Ryan. On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 14:34, Grant Bowman grant...@gmail.com wrote: You may have some other sources in your /etc/apt/source.list file that are conflicting. I've got David's packages installed and running without those errors. I saw errors like that were from the older packages. I removed the old ppa repositories beforehand. I don't think David's packages uninstall or conflict with the older packages yet to make the upgrade as seamless as it soon will be. You can try remove all the older sugar packages. To find the older packages try `dpkg -l | egrep sugar` and then apt-get remove the old ones before installing the new ones. I did that before installing. I still have the conflict. dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of sugar-platform: sugar-platform depends on olpcsound; however: Package olpcsound is not installed. dpkg: error processing sugar-platform (--configure): dependency problems - leaving unconfigured I tried the alternate command python /usr/bin/sugar-session which produces an almost usable Sugar session, with lots of missing icons. [1] 4997 moku...@mokurai-laptop:~$ ** (sugar-session:4997): WARNING **: Trying to register gtype 'WnckWindowState' as flags when in fact it is of type 'GEnum' ** (sugar-session:4997): WARNING **: Trying to register gtype 'WnckWindowActions' as flags when in fact it is of type 'GEnum' ** (sugar-session:4997): WARNING **: Trying to register gtype 'WnckWindowMoveResizeMask' as flags when in fact it is of type 'GEnum' Grant Bowman https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: There seems to be something missing in the repository, or perhaps something else is wrong. python-sugar-toolkit-0.86: Depends: python-sugar-0.86 but it is not installable Recommends: sugar-0.86 but it is not installable Recommends: python-carquinyol-0.86 but it is not installable Recommends: sugar-presence-service-0.86 but it is not installable Recommends: python-jarabe-0.86 but it is not installable This is named -0.86, but the version listed is 0.85. Leaving that out, and installing the rest, Errors were encountered while processing: sugar-platform E: /var/cache/apt/archives/olpcsound_1%3a5.10.90-1~ppa2_amd64.deb: trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/libcsnd.so.5.2', which is also in package libcsnd5.2 1 This is a broken dependency sugar-platform--olpcsound--libcsnd5.2 Then when I try sugar-emulator, Xephyr starts, but not Sugar. sugar-emulator [dix] Could not init font path element /usr/share/fonts/X11/cyrillic, removing from list! [config/dbus] couldn't take over org.x.config: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.AccessDenied (Connection :1.79 is not allowed to own the service org.x.config.display101 due to security policies in the configuration file) unrecognised device identifier! (EE) config/hal: NewInputDeviceRequest failed (2) unrecognised device identifier! (EE) config/hal: NewInputDeviceRequest failed (2) unrecognised device identifier! (EE) config/hal: NewInputDeviceRequest failed (2) unrecognised device identifier! (EE) config/hal: NewInputDeviceRequest failed (2) unrecognised device identifier! (EE) config/hal: NewInputDeviceRequest failed (2) unrecognised device identifier! (EE) config/hal: NewInputDeviceRequest failed (2) unrecognised device identifier! (EE) config/hal: NewInputDeviceRequest failed (2) unrecognised device identifier! (EE) config/hal: NewInputDeviceRequest
[IAEP] SLs Chile and GNOME Chile
Hi, have you considered reaching GNOME Chile for cooperation? Sugar's code is more than 90% from GNOME and the two upstreams regularly cooperate. There's lots of potential for resource pooling in the technical level, and also in the advocacy for free software in education. Regards, Tomeu -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] SLs Chile and GNOME Chile
Hello Tomeu, regards from Santiago, Chile. GNOME community, as far as I know, it had a lot of ups and down in their effort to build collaborative work. I really don't know if there's some counterpart to talk to. This is no sin for any free-software community, but it gets hard to coordinate any kind of cooperation. Where do you see that there's potential around Chile? Are yo talking to chileans involved with GNOME? I must say that stimulating GNOMErs to work around Sugar could be a good idea, but I feel that should come from GNOME's vision and scope. Two chileans are in GNOME's board (Germán Poo http://www.calcifer.org/ and Fernando San Martín http://blogs.gnome.org/fsmw/), and maybe they could help. Is there any work going around SL and GNOME today? Best wishes, werner 2009/11/2 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org Hi, have you considered reaching GNOME Chile for cooperation? Sugar's code is more than 90% from GNOME and the two upstreams regularly cooperate. There's lots of potential for resource pooling in the technical level, and also in the advocacy for free software in education. Regards, Tomeu -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] agenda item for Friday
I would like to discuss the current status/policies regarding the SLOBs mailing list. We have a somewhat ad hoc mechanism for adding observers to the list. I would submit that this policy actually encourages us to use the closed list at times when the public lists would be more appropriate. I would recommend we eliminate all observers from the list and use it only for things that necessity of the protection of the privacy of third parties require a private discussion. The more limited the list, the less likely we'll use it. I would recommend that the ombudsman be privy to the list as well. As far as sending email to the list, it would be nice to enable send access to all members of the community. But I am not sure how to configure mailman to do this. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] What do I want Big Time To Be?
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 11:30, Caryl Bigenho cbige...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi All, When I asked if SoaS was ready for Big Time, Martin replied, What do you mean? I'd recommend it but I don't know enough about what you want. So here is what I mean and want... Agreed. I would like to emphasize that after the successful demos, teachers should be able to go back to their schools and get started without having to call on us for assistance. That means that o They can find the download page through Google, even if they don't have a URL. That works now to get to http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick, if they can remember the name. If they can't, we have to think about what they will look for instead. o The download is automatic and trouble-free. Currently, no, according to http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Strawberry, which puts the download locations on the third screen down, and talks about Bittorrent, SHA hashes, downloading extra software, and other issues. o There is an automated installer, so that no technical knowledge is needed. No. o The installer offers to make a boot CD, and explains how the user can tell whether one is needed. No. o Enough documentation, tutorials, demos, and sample lesson plans are included so that our teacher can convince other teachers that this is worth their time, and also administrators and parents. We have made a good start, but there is much more to be done. Or, alternatively, we can point them to a ready supplier of CDs and sticks with Sugar already installed. Another way to look at this is through one of Fred Brooks's Laws from The Mythical Man-Month: The difference between a program you can use and a program you can sell is three times the effort. (Brooks's principal Law is: Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later.) Hofstadter's Law also applies: Projects tend to take twice as long as expected, even when you have taken account of Hofstadter's Law. Also stated as: The first 90% of the work takes the first 90% of the time, and the remaining 10% of the work takes the other 90% (sic) of the time. Why is there never time to do a job right, but always time to do it over? All of these laws have been amply verified during XO and Sugar development. We are only as far advanced as we currently are because this is not a commercial operation. I would like to be able to go into a room (or exhibit hall) filled with overworked, underpaid educators and while showing them Sugar on the XO, tell them they can run some of the same (and some even better) Activities on the equipment they already have at their schools... and that they can do it for free (free is good). Free is the only way to get around the competing forces that have made the schools' acquisition process such a bureaucratic nightmare. I would like them to get really excited about being able to get something for their students that is not only sound educationally, but that they can afford because the download is free. Their only cost is their chosen storage media. The real question is whether they are allowed to use it on existing school computers, even though it will not be installed and will not affect what is installed. I would like to be able to show them how it works on a MacBook (my machine) and on a PC (if someone would just tell me how to get one for very little $$$). I would like it to be stable software that runs on their choice of Live CD or USB stick. I would like to be able to give them links for downloading it and for getting other Activities. Done. SoaS Wiki page and a.s.l.o. I would like to be able to give them links for very easy to follow instructions for downloading and using the software. Currently, easy for techies. So simple, even a 12-year old can understand it. Quick, someone get me a 12-year-old!--Groucho Marx And, I would like to be able to give them links to a place they can get help if they get stuck. Right. That should be on the SoaS page. Instead, we ask them whether they would like to help us. I know some of these things exist already but, unless I have missed something, most of them don't. My next presentation to educators will be at the CUELA/LAUSD Tech Fair on November 14. How much of this is real already? How much is in the dim and distant future? Send links! Caryl ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://www.earthtreasury.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] SLs Chile and GNOME Chile
Hi Werner, I don't know if you know this, but both Sugar an Gnome share identical code for collaboration and communication in the form of Telepathy dbus api (http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/) The only difference is that at the time their presence service was not so advanced, so Sugar has its own. Telepathy has since really mattured though, and mission control 5, that includes an advanced presence service that hopeffuly some folks are porting to latest sugar,, David Van Assche On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Werner Westermann werne...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Tomeu, regards from Santiago, Chile. GNOME community, as far as I know, it had a lot of ups and down in their effort to build collaborative work. I really don't know if there's some counterpart to talk to. This is no sin for any free-software community, but it gets hard to coordinate any kind of cooperation. Where do you see that there's potential around Chile? Are yo talking to chileans involved with GNOME? I must say that stimulating GNOMErs to work around Sugar could be a good idea, but I feel that should come from GNOME's vision and scope. Two chileans are in GNOME's board (Germán Poo http://www.calcifer.org/ and Fernando San Martín http://blogs.gnome.org/fsmw/), and maybe they could help. Is there any work going around SL and GNOME today? Best wishes, werner 2009/11/2 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org Hi, have you considered reaching GNOME Chile for cooperation? Sugar's code is more than 90% from GNOME and the two upstreams regularly cooperate. There's lots of potential for resource pooling in the technical level, and also in the advocacy for free software in education. Regards, Tomeu -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Mike Ditka - If God had wanted man to play soccer, he wouldn't have given us arms. - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mike_ditka.html ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
