Re: [IAEP] Abacus suggestions
On Sun, 2011-10-09 at 15:25 -0400, Walter Bender wrote: On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn alan...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi, The touch scrren allows manipulate the abacus activity like an real abacus... As Yoshiki points out, without multitouch, you cannot use it in the same what as a real abacus. Even with multitouch, you are missing much of the tactile feedback you have with the physical object. So it is doubtful that the Abacus activity could ever be manipulated at the same speed as the real thing. But again, this is not really the point. Doesn't anybody see the irony of a computer emulating an abacus, but not as efficiently as its 4000 years old counterpart? :-) -- Bernie Innocenti Sugar Labs Infrastructure Team http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Infrastructure_Team ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Abacus suggestions
On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 AM, Yoshiki Ohshima yosh...@vpri.org wrote: For the first time I launched Abacus activity today. My impression is biased as I am Japanese and learned a version of it at school, but here is some suggestions: - The graphics lacks essential dots. You see some dots in this picture for example: http://kamedake.com/_src/sc946/DSC_1976.jpg. These are period and commas. The big white two dots means the it is 1's digit. The smaller dots on the bar are put every 3 digits; even though the Japanese writing system would work better with comma's every 4 digits, we conceeded to westerners. In any case, missing these dots was the first surprise for me. I wasn't aware of this. (We should update the Wikipedia article on the Soroban.) - As you can see, the default 1's digit (the big white dots) is in the middle, not the far right. That makes sense to tell that there are numbers smaller than 1 and for the idea of power of 10. (It is often a good technique to slide the decimal point, so I first thought the red triangle to mean this, but it is something else.) The red triangle is a mark found on many Chinese abaci. It is useful for to keeping track of place while doing multiplication and division. - It trys to show the addition on the bar, but it defeats the whole point of abacus. Instead of showing: 700 + 10 + 7 = 717 We would put just one number at each column and then the result should be self explanatory. (It would show 7 1 7 and it is the result.) This is a very good idea. - For a non-5 and 4 abacus, this is not simple, but then why kids in the 21st century need to learn Mayan arithmetic... My goal with the abacus was primarily to introduce the idea of multiple representations. - So, there are some 90 combinations of two one digit number additions. Some require 5's compliment arithmetic (adding 4 to 2 is subtracting 1 but then adding 5, etc.) or 10's (if it is the right terminlogy.) Abacus was about building the muscle memory for these 90 patterns of additions. Some of these require you to move both index finger and thumb at the same time. After acquiring this muscle memory, you can do any additions without thinking, and that is the point of abacus. But now, doing additions without thining is easier with electronic calculators. At the same time, the Abacus activity is not set up for learning about this part of idea (and XO is not multi touch, so you can't build the muscle memory). I haven't played with the abacus on the touch-screen XO yet... but it is not multitouch. Muscle memory is not something we can do much with on that hardware :P - However, it is still valuable to be aware fo the idea of understanding the idea of adding 4 is adding 5 but subtracting 1, etc. Yes. - There is a bug when I tried to make my own abacus. If there is a number already on abacus, changing the board made some beads stuck outside. I thought I fixed that bug in a recent release. What version are you using? Thanks for the feedback. Regards. -walter -- Yoshiki ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Abacus suggestions
Hi, Walter, At Sun, 9 Oct 2011 08:57:51 -0400, Walter Bender wrote: - As you can see, the default 1's digit (the big white dots) is in the middle, not the far right. That makes sense to tell that there are numbers smaller than 1 and for the idea of power of 10. (It is often a good technique to slide the decimal point, so I first thought the red triangle to mean this, but it is something else.) The red triangle is a mark found on many Chinese abaci. It is useful for to keeping track of place while doing multiplication and division. Ok. The scheme on the wiki is different from what I know. Which clears the used digits of multiplier as you go and that serves as the tracker. But I see that if you have it there, it can be used for such a purpose. - For a non-5 and 4 abacus, this is not simple, but then why kids in the 21st century need to learn Mayan arithmetic... My goal with the abacus was primarily to introduce the idea of multiple representations. Ok... It seems to me that these different traditional ones are tied to the way they say or write numbers. In other words, the abacus in that culture feels natural, but once we try to map the numberto base 10 arabic notation, it requires some extra mind work. Which may be about this multiple representations. - So, there are some 90 combinations of two one digit number additions. Some require 5's compliment arithmetic (adding 4 to 2 is subtracting 1 but then adding 5, etc.) or 10's (if it is the right terminlogy.) Abacus was about building the muscle memory for these 90 patterns of additions. Some of these require you to move both index finger and thumb at the same time. After acquiring this muscle memory, you can do any additions without thinking, and that is the point of abacus. But now, doing additions without thining is easier with electronic calculators. At the same time, the Abacus activity is not set up for learning about this part of idea (and XO is not multi touch, so you can't build the muscle memory). I haven't played with the abacus on the touch-screen XO yet... but it is not multitouch. Muscle memory is not something we can do much with on that hardware :P Hmm, too bad. The real abacus as an artifact feels good. We ride on it like a skate board, too. - There is a bug when I tried to make my own abacus. If there is a number already on abacus, changing the board made some beads stuck outside. I thought I fixed that bug in a recent release. What version are you using? It is from 508dx Dextrose 2 International. -- Yoshiki ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Abacus suggestions
On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 AM, Yoshiki Ohshima yosh...@vpri.org wrote: For the first time I launched Abacus activity today. My impression is biased as I am Japanese and learned a version of it at school, but here is some suggestions: - The graphics lacks essential dots. You see some dots in this picture for example: http://kamedake.com/_src/sc946/DSC_1976.jpg. These are period and commas. The big white two dots means the it is 1's digit. The smaller dots on the bar are put every 3 digits; even though the Japanese writing system would work better with comma's every 4 digits, we conceeded to westerners. In any case, missing these dots was the first surprise for me. Would it make sense then to let the user move the dots left and right depending upon where they want the 1s digit? Or is it always in the same place? thanks. -walter - As you can see, the default 1's digit (the big white dots) is in the middle, not the far right. That makes sense to tell that there are numbers smaller than 1 and for the idea of power of 10. (It is often a good technique to slide the decimal point, so I first thought the red triangle to mean this, but it is something else.) - It trys to show the addition on the bar, but it defeats the whole point of abacus. Instead of showing: 700 + 10 + 7 = 717 We would put just one number at each column and then the result should be self explanatory. (It would show 7 1 7 and it is the result.) - For a non-5 and 4 abacus, this is not simple, but then why kids in the 21st century need to learn Mayan arithmetic... - So, there are some 90 combinations of two one digit number additions. Some require 5's compliment arithmetic (adding 4 to 2 is subtracting 1 but then adding 5, etc.) or 10's (if it is the right terminlogy.) Abacus was about building the muscle memory for these 90 patterns of additions. Some of these require you to move both index finger and thumb at the same time. After acquiring this muscle memory, you can do any additions without thinking, and that is the point of abacus. But now, doing additions without thining is easier with electronic calculators. At the same time, the Abacus activity is not set up for learning about this part of idea (and XO is not multi touch, so you can't build the muscle memory). - However, it is still valuable to be aware fo the idea of understanding the idea of adding 4 is adding 5 but subtracting 1, etc. - There is a bug when I tried to make my own abacus. If there is a number already on abacus, changing the board made some beads stuck outside. -- Yoshiki ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Abacus suggestions
Hi, The touch scrren allows manipulate the abacus activity like an real abacus... And when you have some practice with your fingers.. you can will be more quick than a calculator! I see the Japanesse children make it with incredible speed! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj7XbnYrIk0feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwY9oazPqGgfeature=related Regards Alan Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 11:20:07 -0700 From: yosh...@vpri.org To: walter.ben...@gmail.com CC: iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Subject: Re: [IAEP] Abacus suggestions Hi, Walter, At Sun, 9 Oct 2011 08:57:51 -0400, Walter Bender wrote: - As you can see, the default 1's digit (the big white dots) is in the middle, not the far right. That makes sense to tell that there are numbers smaller than 1 and for the idea of power of 10. (It is often a good technique to slide the decimal point, so I first thought the red triangle to mean this, but it is something else.) The red triangle is a mark found on many Chinese abaci. It is useful for to keeping track of place while doing multiplication and division. Ok. The scheme on the wiki is different from what I know. Which clears the used digits of multiplier as you go and that serves as the tracker. But I see that if you have it there, it can be used for such a purpose. - For a non-5 and 4 abacus, this is not simple, but then why kids in the 21st century need to learn Mayan arithmetic... My goal with the abacus was primarily to introduce the idea of multiple representations. Ok... It seems to me that these different traditional ones are tied to the way they say or write numbers. In other words, the abacus in that culture feels natural, but once we try to map the numberto base 10 arabic notation, it requires some extra mind work. Which may be about this multiple representations. - So, there are some 90 combinations of two one digit number additions. Some require 5's compliment arithmetic (adding 4 to 2 is subtracting 1 but then adding 5, etc.) or 10's (if it is the right terminlogy.) Abacus was about building the muscle memory for these 90 patterns of additions. Some of these require you to move both index finger and thumb at the same time. After acquiring this muscle memory, you can do any additions without thinking, and that is the point of abacus. But now, doing additions without thining is easier with electronic calculators. At the same time, the Abacus activity is not set up for learning about this part of idea (and XO is not multi touch, so you can't build the muscle memory). I haven't played with the abacus on the touch-screen XO yet... but it is not multitouch. Muscle memory is not something we can do much with on that hardware :P Hmm, too bad. The real abacus as an artifact feels good. We ride on it like a skate board, too. - There is a bug when I tried to make my own abacus. If there is a number already on abacus, changing the board made some beads stuck outside. I thought I fixed that bug in a recent release. What version are you using? It is from 508dx Dextrose 2 International. -- Yoshiki ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Abacus suggestions
At Sun, 9 Oct 2011 15:11:24 -0400, Walter Bender wrote: On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:29 AM, Yoshiki Ohshima yosh...@vpri.org wrote: For the first time I launched Abacus activity today. My impression is biased as I am Japanese and learned a version of it at school, but here is some suggestions: - The graphics lacks essential dots. You see some dots in this picture for example: http://kamedake.com/_src/sc946/DSC_1976.jpg. These are period and commas. The big white two dots means the it is 1's digit. The smaller dots on the bar are put every 3 digits; even though the Japanese writing system would work better with comma's every 4 digits, we conceeded to westerners. In any case, missing these dots was the first surprise for me. Would it make sense then to let the user move the dots left and right depending upon where they want the 1s digit? Or is it always in the same place? Unless we are to invent a new scheme, I'd keep these dots at the same place. But this could be a conservable opinion... -- Yoshiki ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] Abacus suggestions
For the first time I launched Abacus activity today. My impression is biased as I am Japanese and learned a version of it at school, but here is some suggestions: - The graphics lacks essential dots. You see some dots in this picture for example: http://kamedake.com/_src/sc946/DSC_1976.jpg. These are period and commas. The big white two dots means the it is 1's digit. The smaller dots on the bar are put every 3 digits; even though the Japanese writing system would work better with comma's every 4 digits, we conceeded to westerners. In any case, missing these dots was the first surprise for me. - As you can see, the default 1's digit (the big white dots) is in the middle, not the far right. That makes sense to tell that there are numbers smaller than 1 and for the idea of power of 10. (It is often a good technique to slide the decimal point, so I first thought the red triangle to mean this, but it is something else.) - It trys to show the addition on the bar, but it defeats the whole point of abacus. Instead of showing: 700 + 10 + 7 = 717 We would put just one number at each column and then the result should be self explanatory. (It would show 7 1 7 and it is the result.) - For a non-5 and 4 abacus, this is not simple, but then why kids in the 21st century need to learn Mayan arithmetic... - So, there are some 90 combinations of two one digit number additions. Some require 5's compliment arithmetic (adding 4 to 2 is subtracting 1 but then adding 5, etc.) or 10's (if it is the right terminlogy.) Abacus was about building the muscle memory for these 90 patterns of additions. Some of these require you to move both index finger and thumb at the same time. After acquiring this muscle memory, you can do any additions without thinking, and that is the point of abacus. But now, doing additions without thining is easier with electronic calculators. At the same time, the Abacus activity is not set up for learning about this part of idea (and XO is not multi touch, so you can't build the muscle memory). - However, it is still valuable to be aware fo the idea of understanding the idea of adding 4 is adding 5 but subtracting 1, etc. - There is a bug when I tried to make my own abacus. If there is a number already on abacus, changing the board made some beads stuck outside. -- Yoshiki ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
