Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 18 June 2016 at 17:41, Caryl Bigenho  wrote:

> Your "ageism" is showing.
>

I'm talking about all adults 18+
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Caryl Bigenho]

Dave,

Your "ageism" is showing.

Caryl (age 79 years young)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 17, 2016, at 7:38 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 17 June 2016 at 01:17, Laura Vargas  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 2016-06-17 12:07 GMT+08:00 Dave Crossland :
>>> 
 On 16 June 2016 at 13:49, Laura Vargas  wrote:
 Great news Dave! hopefully more and more OLPC members will join the 
 conversation on the IEP list.
>>> 
>>> Sadly, I must admit that I do not expect anyone at OLPC to join this list.
>> 
>> Could you please explain why? 
> 
> Most adults do not 'get' internet culture: They do not participate on the net 
> any more than they have to, beyond connecting with friends and family they 
> know face to face. There is no participation in any online communities; they 
> do not understand why discussing with strangers on the internet could be 
> valuable - it is just a waste of time, from their perspective, and they weigh 
> the downsides - not only having their ideas and ideologies criticised, but 
> often personally attacked - much heavier than we (we who do participate) do. 
> 
> In working with teams at both small and large companies over the years, 
> despite working on tech products directly related to the internet, I have met 
> _many_ people who have no interest in internet culture. There is nothing 
> about them online. They have their families, their sports/social clubs, their 
> TV magazines and other "old media";  they perform labour that they learned to 
> do in their early 20s at college, and learn new aspects of their work through 
> training courses that their employer provides. 
> 
> And this is only my impression, but it is my impression that the company 
> culture at OLPC Inc today is one of mainstream normality: good, friendly, 
> kind people who work in their office diligently at regular hours, and are not 
> obsessed with their work, and do not take their work home with them, and have 
> zero patience for anything other that professional, courteous interactions, 
> that involved respected lines of authority. 
> 
> I have this impression not from speaking with Leah, but by browsing their web 
> properties - homepage, wiki, mailing lists, etc - which are all very old, and 
> not updated this year (except the blog) - and their total absence not only 
> from recent discussions but the archives too. 
>  
> - OLPC offered XO-1.75 and XO-4 upgrade kits in the past, to upgrade 
> XO-1s, but they didn't sell that well; she agreed with Tony's assessment 
> that users will run the XO-1 until it fails, and OLPC has no EOL date in 
> mind
> 
> - OLPC is still offering XO-4s (touch and non-touch) with a minimum order 
> of 100 units through the end of this year for sure, and has a few units 
> in stock in Miami if anyone wants to buy just one or two; and Leah said 
> they could look into updating the laptop.org website to make the offer 
> public
 
 I belive SL business is the software We should not pay for any hardware 
 (besides the servers) that must be provided from PC manufacturers for 
 development ans testing. We already have experience with Intell locally.
>>> 
>>> You do not think SL should offer hardware to developers to raise funds?
>> 
>> Can you also please explain what is what you are proposing? 
> 
> I think SL should offer hardware to developers to raise funds, and to make 
> these developers more effective at meeting the needs of Sugar users, the 
> majority of which are XO-1 users.
>  
> - OLPC is now also offering a newer model, a classmate-spec machine, and 
> will send me details about this; its rugged and branded but not got the 
> pixel qi screen. 
> - OLPC only ships Sugar, and is very happy with it, and wants to support 
> the developer community although isn't sure how to so;
 
 And we are very happy supporting the OLPCs too. We would like to continue 
 doing so in a sustainable way for active members. We should let them know, 
 we are developing a thematic fund structure for OLPC and other "investors" 
 to be able to directorate the resources into specific projects.
>>> 
>>> I agree that they ought to be one of the many companies we approach for 
>>> funding in the future :) 
>>  
>> I read from your email they are ready to "support the developer community" 
>> so let's not keep everybody waiting! 
>> 
>> :D
> 
> What are the concrete next steps to take along that path?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Cheers
> Dave
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
___
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IAEP -- It's 

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Laura Vargas]

2016-06-17 21:37 GMT+08:00 Dave Crossland :

>
>
> On 17 June 2016 at 01:17, Laura Vargas  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2016-06-17 12:07 GMT+08:00 Dave Crossland :
>>
>>>
>>> On 16 June 2016 at 13:49, Laura Vargas  wrote:
>>>
 Great news Dave! hopefully more and more OLPC members will join the
 conversation on the IEP list.

>>>
>>> Sadly, I must admit that I do not expect anyone at OLPC to join this
>>> list.
>>>
>>
>> Could you please explain why?
>>
>
> Most adults do not 'get' internet culture: They do not participate on the
> net any more than they have to, beyond connecting with friends and family
> they know face to face. There is no participation in any online
> communities; they do not understand why discussing with strangers on the
> internet could be valuable - it is just a waste of time, from their
> perspective, and they weigh the downsides - not only having their ideas and
> ideologies criticised, but often personally attacked - much heavier than we
> (we who do participate) do.
>
> In working with teams at both small and large companies over the years,
> despite working on tech products directly related to the internet, I have
> met _many_ people who have no interest in internet culture. There is
> nothing about them online. They have their families, their sports/social
> clubs, their TV magazines and other "old media";  they perform labour that
> they learned to do in their early 20s at college, and learn new aspects of
> their work through training courses that their employer provides.
>
> And this is only my impression, but it is my impression that the company
> culture at OLPC Inc today is one of mainstream normality: good, friendly,
> kind people who work in their office diligently at regular hours, and are
> not obsessed with their work, and do not take their work home with them,
> and have zero patience for anything other that professional, courteous
> interactions, that involved respected lines of authority.
>
> I have this impression not from speaking with Leah, but by browsing their
> web properties - homepage, wiki, mailing lists, etc - which are all very
> old, and not updated this year (except the blog) - and their total absence
> not only from recent discussions but the archives too.
>
>
>> - OLPC offered XO-1.75 and XO-4 upgrade kits in the past, to upgrade
> XO-1s, but they didn't sell that well; she agreed with Tony's assessment
> that users will run the XO-1 until it fails, and OLPC has no EOL date in
> mind
>
> - OLPC is still offering XO-4s (touch and non-touch) with a minimum
> order of 100 units through the end of this year for sure, and has a few
> units in stock in Miami if anyone wants to buy just one or two; and Leah
> said they could look into updating the laptop.org website to make the
> offer public
>
 I belive SL business is the software We should not pay for any hardware
 (besides the servers) that must be provided from PC manufacturers for
 development ans testing. We already have experience with Intell locally.

>>>
>>> You do not think SL should offer hardware to developers to raise funds?
>>>
>>
>> Can you also please explain what is what you are proposing?
>>
>
> I think SL should offer hardware to developers to raise funds, and to make
> these developers more effective at meeting the needs of Sugar users, the
> majority of which are XO-1 users.
>

You think SL should sell hardware to non-community developers?

>
>
>> - OLPC is now also offering a newer model, a classmate-spec machine, and
> will send me details about this; its rugged and branded but not got the
> pixel qi screen.
> - OLPC only ships Sugar, and is very happy with it, and wants to
> support the developer community although isn't sure how to so;
>

 And we are very happy supporting the OLPCs too. We would like to
 continue doing so in a sustainable way for active members. We should let
 them know, we are developing a thematic fund structure for OLPC and other
 "investors" to be able to directorate the resources into specific projects.

>>>
>>> I agree that they ought to be one of the many companies we approach for
>>> funding in the future :)
>>>
>>
>> I read from your email they are ready to "support the developer
>> community" so *let's not keep everybody waiting*!
>>
>> :D
>>
>
> What are the concrete next steps to take along that path?
>
>
If OLPC wants to support the developer community, we could ask them to fund
one or two "Sugar Fellowships" (a merit-based financial aid) one for the
infrastructure team and one for the development team.



>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave
>



-- 
Laura V.
I SomosAZUCAR.Org

Identi.ca/Skype acaire
IRC kaametza

Happy Learning!
___
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 17 June 2016 at 01:17, Laura Vargas  wrote:

>
>
> 2016-06-17 12:07 GMT+08:00 Dave Crossland :
>
>>
>> On 16 June 2016 at 13:49, Laura Vargas  wrote:
>>
>>> Great news Dave! hopefully more and more OLPC members will join the
>>> conversation on the IEP list.
>>>
>>
>> Sadly, I must admit that I do not expect anyone at OLPC to join this list.
>>
>
> Could you please explain why?
>

Most adults do not 'get' internet culture: They do not participate on the
net any more than they have to, beyond connecting with friends and family
they know face to face. There is no participation in any online
communities; they do not understand why discussing with strangers on the
internet could be valuable - it is just a waste of time, from their
perspective, and they weigh the downsides - not only having their ideas and
ideologies criticised, but often personally attacked - much heavier than we
(we who do participate) do.

In working with teams at both small and large companies over the years,
despite working on tech products directly related to the internet, I have
met _many_ people who have no interest in internet culture. There is
nothing about them online. They have their families, their sports/social
clubs, their TV magazines and other "old media";  they perform labour that
they learned to do in their early 20s at college, and learn new aspects of
their work through training courses that their employer provides.

And this is only my impression, but it is my impression that the company
culture at OLPC Inc today is one of mainstream normality: good, friendly,
kind people who work in their office diligently at regular hours, and are
not obsessed with their work, and do not take their work home with them,
and have zero patience for anything other that professional, courteous
interactions, that involved respected lines of authority.

I have this impression not from speaking with Leah, but by browsing their
web properties - homepage, wiki, mailing lists, etc - which are all very
old, and not updated this year (except the blog) - and their total absence
not only from recent discussions but the archives too.


> - OLPC offered XO-1.75 and XO-4 upgrade kits in the past, to upgrade
 XO-1s, but they didn't sell that well; she agreed with Tony's assessment
 that users will run the XO-1 until it fails, and OLPC has no EOL date in
 mind

 - OLPC is still offering XO-4s (touch and non-touch) with a minimum
 order of 100 units through the end of this year for sure, and has a few
 units in stock in Miami if anyone wants to buy just one or two; and Leah
 said they could look into updating the laptop.org website to make the
 offer public

>>> I belive SL business is the software We should not pay for any hardware
>>> (besides the servers) that must be provided from PC manufacturers for
>>> development ans testing. We already have experience with Intell locally.
>>>
>>
>> You do not think SL should offer hardware to developers to raise funds?
>>
>
> Can you also please explain what is what you are proposing?
>

I think SL should offer hardware to developers to raise funds, and to make
these developers more effective at meeting the needs of Sugar users, the
majority of which are XO-1 users.


> - OLPC is now also offering a newer model, a classmate-spec machine, and
 will send me details about this; its rugged and branded but not got the
 pixel qi screen.
 - OLPC only ships Sugar, and is very happy with it, and wants to
 support the developer community although isn't sure how to so;

>>>
>>> And we are very happy supporting the OLPCs too. We would like to
>>> continue doing so in a sustainable way for active members. We should let
>>> them know, we are developing a thematic fund structure for OLPC and other
>>> "investors" to be able to directorate the resources into specific projects.
>>>
>>
>> I agree that they ought to be one of the many companies we approach for
>> funding in the future :)
>>
>
> I read from your email they are ready to "support the developer community"
> so *let's not keep everybody waiting*!
>
> :D
>

What are the concrete next steps to take along that path?


-- 
Cheers
Dave
___
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sebastian Silva]

El 16/06/16 a las 23:32, Dave Crossland escribió:
>
>> When I spoke to Rangan a couple months ago, he said that there is
>> no demand from the schools that One Education serves for such an
>> image.
>
> It all depends on your intervention principles. In education, *we
> see Free Software as the only ethical and coherent option because
> it enables learners to examine and improve the tools we use to
> learn*, or do our jobs.
>
>
> As a percentage, how many school IT decision makers agree with you?
I expect few. Generally, not out of malice.:-)
>
> What is your strategy for engaging the ones who do not agree with you?
To respectfully educate them on the subject.

The point is we cannot be guided by demand alone. We stand for something.

Where there is ignorance there is no demand for knowledge but rather for
entertainment.
Too often people resign their freedom in order to obtain short term
convenience.

We aim to liberate them rather than submit them to technological oppression.
>  
>
>> we really need a good OS proposal for those.
>>
>>
>> Can you point to any proposals that are similar to what you have
>> in mind (but perhaps not 'good,' as you define it...)?
> There are many. I can point to:
>
>   * DouDouLinux http://www.doudoulinux.org/web/english/index.html
>   * Qimu http://www.qimo4kids.com/what-is-qimo/
>   * Trisquel TOAST
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Trisquel_On_A_Sugar_Toast
>   * DebianEdu https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/
>   * Minino http://minino.galpon.org/
>   * Huayra GNU Linux http://huayra.conectarigualdad.gob.ar/
>   * Canaima GNU Linux http://www.canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/
>
> They either:
>
>   * Don't include / consider Sugar
>   * Are 'all or nothing'
>   * Are hard to base from
>   * Don't run well on classmates [because of drivers]
>   * Are dead projects or dormant
>
> We propose development of a common /Sugar Blend /as a base for a
> classmate-class laptop operating system:
> https://wiki.debian.org/SugarBlend/Huayruro
>
> Such a project would overcome the previous limitations by building
> on a common base.
>
> I am reminded a bit of https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8DCMDoCYAEVHOZ.jpg
> - especially because of DebianEdu.
> Why did you not join one of these projects and reinvigorate it to
> address the issues you listed?
I did! Most of them were done without thinking of replicability or
continuity. I am collaborating from inside Debian (although I haven't
reached Debian Developer status). You'll notice all of the above have
Debian as a base. Plus it's the only active project of the lot. Jonas
and I worked actively on it last year. Sadly the Ministry of Education
of Peru deployed tablets and did not fund the proposed project. I still
think it is needed.
> In concrete terms, what can be done to work together with him on this? 
>
> Would you want him to send you a laptop? What else could he do for you?
Samples would be nice of course. I would love it if he would commit to
offering Sugar as an option for deployment. It would be even better if
they would commit some resources to making it a practical option. Sugar
Labs should too. I don't think our current software offering set is
adequate and I think this translates into the slow demand he perceives.
No product, no demand.
--
Regards,
Sebastian
___
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Laura Vargas]

2016-06-17 12:07 GMT+08:00 Dave Crossland :

>
> On 16 June 2016 at 13:49, Laura Vargas  wrote:
>
>> Great news Dave! hopefully more and more OLPC members will join the
>> conversation on the IEP list.
>>
>
> Sadly, I must admit that I do not expect anyone at OLPC to join this list.
>

Could you please explain why?

>
>
>> - OLPC offered XO-1.75 and XO-4 upgrade kits in the past, to upgrade
>>> XO-1s, but they didn't sell that well; she agreed with Tony's assessment
>>> that users will run the XO-1 until it fails, and OLPC has no EOL date in
>>> mind
>>>
>>> - OLPC is still offering XO-4s (touch and non-touch) with a minimum
>>> order of 100 units through the end of this year for sure, and has a few
>>> units in stock in Miami if anyone wants to buy just one or two; and Leah
>>> said they could look into updating the laptop.org website to make the
>>> offer public
>>>
>> I belive SL business is the software We should not pay for any hardware
>> (besides the servers) that must be provided from PC manufacturers for
>> development ans testing. We already have experience with Intell locally.
>>
>
> You do not think SL should offer hardware to developers to raise funds?
>

Can you also please explain what is what you are proposing?

>
>
>> - OLPC is now also offering a newer model, a classmate-spec machine, and
>>> will send me details about this; its rugged and branded but not got the
>>> pixel qi screen.
>>>
>>> - OLPC only ships Sugar, and is very happy with it, and wants to support
>>> the developer community although isn't sure how to so;
>>>
>>
>> And we are very happy supporting the OLPCs too. We would like to continue
>> doing so in a sustainable way for active members. We should let them know,
>> we are developing a thematic fund structure for OLPC and other "investors"
>> to be able to directorate the resources into specific projects.
>>
>
> I agree that they ought to be one of the many companies we approach for
> funding in the future :)
>

I read from your email they are ready to "support the developer community"
so *let's not keep everybody waiting*!

:D


> - OLPC is willing to put me in touch with deployments if I wanted to visit
>>> them to do user testing of the font editor activity and font design
>>> workshops for kids
>>>
>>
>> I believe full transparency for technical contacts, year of intervention,
>> native language, number of machines, etc should be public information as
>> long as it is public education.
>>
>
> Leah said she could look into how often their customers upgrade Sugar, so
> I guess I'll speak with her again in a couple of months when I have more
> information about the font editor and some idea about the upcoming 0.110
> release.
>
> Cheers
> Dave
>



-- 
Laura V.
I SomosAZUCAR.Org

Identi.ca/Skype acaire
IRC kaametza

Happy Learning!
___
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 16 June 2016 at 11:30, Sean DALY  wrote:

>
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
>> Where is the original text?
>
>
>
> The old site was zapped before I could archive anything, so I just use the
> Internet Archive Wayback Machine
>

That'll work :) I've filed
https://github.com/sugarlabs/www-sugarlabs/issues/56 to track this
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 16 June 2016 at 13:45, Sebastian Silva  wrote:

>
>
> El 15/06/16 a las 22:02, Dave Crossland escribió:
>
>
> Hi
>
> On 15 June 2016 at 12:51, Sebastian Silva 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 15/06/16 08:40, Dave Crossland wrote:
>> > However, http://www.one-education.org has just announced their new
>> > unit, which is US$260 including tax (but plus shipping from Australia)
>> >
>> > Perhaps that should be the reference unit?
>>
>
>
> Just saw this closer and it looks like a really nice laptop. It's a
>> shame that there is no Sugar image tailored for it.
>
>
> When I spoke to Rangan a couple months ago, he said that there is no
> demand from the schools that One Education serves for such an image.
>
>
> It all depends on your intervention principles. In education, *we see
> Free Software as the only ethical and coherent option because it enables
> learners to examine and improve the tools we use to learn*, or do our
> jobs.
>

As a percentage, how many school IT decision makers agree with you?

What is your strategy for engaging the ones who do not agree with you?


> Perhaps Sugar Labs should try to get a donation for distributing to
>> developers.
>
>
> Sadly https://github.com/oneeducation is not updated much, as they are
> working in private repos; he wasn't sure if they will become public repos
> after their launch ramps up.
>
>
>
>> It looks like a classmate-class laptop
>>
>
> What do you see the differences as between a classmate and a chromebook?
>
> I expect to be able to install a standard or customized GNU/linux
> operating system on classmate-class laptops. At a certain scale I expect I
> can have it pre-installed by the supplier and produced with only
> free-software supported parts. I don't expect Chromebooks will offer these
> possibilities.
>

"Basically, all Intel hardware from year 2010 and beyond will never be
supported by libreboot. The libreboot project is actively ignoring all
modern Intel hardware at this point, and focusing on alternative platforms."
- https://libreboot.org/faq/#librem

Do Classmates inherently require the Intel Management Engine?

Do non-Intel Chromebooks?

we really need a good OS proposal for those.
>
>
> Can you point to any proposals that are similar to what you have in mind
> (but perhaps not 'good,' as you define it...)?
>
> There are many. I can point to:
>
>- DouDouLinux http://www.doudoulinux.org/web/english/index.html
>- Qimu http://www.qimo4kids.com/what-is-qimo/
>- Trisquel TOAST http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Trisquel_On_A_Sugar_Toast
>- DebianEdu https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/
>- Minino http://minino.galpon.org/
>- Huayra GNU Linux http://huayra.conectarigualdad.gob.ar/
>- Canaima GNU Linux http://www.canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/
>
> They either:
>
>- Don't include / consider Sugar
>- Are 'all or nothing'
>- Are hard to base from
>- Don't run well on classmates [because of drivers]
>- Are dead projects or dormant
>
> We propose development of a common * Sugar Blend *as a base for a
> classmate-class laptop operating system:
> https://wiki.debian.org/SugarBlend/Huayruro
>
> Such a project would overcome the previous limitations by building on a
> common base.
>
I am reminded a bit of https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8DCMDoCYAEVHOZ.jpg -
especially because of DebianEdu.

Why did you not join one of these projects and reinvigorate it to address
the issues you listed?

(Operating System or Open Source? :)
>
> I never say Open Source. :-)
>

Me too; I prefer to say 'libre' :)


> I'd be happy deploying 10 of them in a community center near
>> Puerto Maldonado and sharing results.
>>
>
> I guess you are touch with Rangan already, but perhaps we could schedule a
> call with the 3 of us if you are not :)
>
> I'm not in contact with him but I'd love to work together towards the goal
> of producing a credible and fully supported operating system for laptops
> such as these (there are many brands). It would be great if we could gather
> support from manufacturers and integrators for producing and releasing a
> supported distribution/platform tested on specific models of laptops.
>

In concrete terms, what can be done to work together with him on this?

Would you want him to send you a laptop? What else could he do for you?

-- 
Cheers
Dave
___
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 16 June 2016 at 13:49, Laura Vargas  wrote:

> Great news Dave! hopefully more and more OLPC members will join the
> conversation on the IEP list.
>

Sadly, I must admit that I do not expect anyone at OLPC to join this list.


> - OLPC offered XO-1.75 and XO-4 upgrade kits in the past, to upgrade
>> XO-1s, but they didn't sell that well; she agreed with Tony's assessment
>> that users will run the XO-1 until it fails, and OLPC has no EOL date in
>> mind
>>
>> - OLPC is still offering XO-4s (touch and non-touch) with a minimum order
>> of 100 units through the end of this year for sure, and has a few units in
>> stock in Miami if anyone wants to buy just one or two; and Leah said they
>> could look into updating the laptop.org website to make the offer public
>>
> I belive SL business is the software We should not pay for any hardware
> (besides the servers) that must be provided from PC manufacturers for
> development ans testing. We already have experience with Intell locally.
>

You do not think SL should offer hardware to developers to raise funds?


> - OLPC is now also offering a newer model, a classmate-spec machine, and
>> will send me details about this; its rugged and branded but not got the
>> pixel qi screen.
>>
>> - OLPC only ships Sugar, and is very happy with it, and wants to support
>> the developer community although isn't sure how to so;
>>
>
> And we are very happy supporting the OLPCs too. We would like to continue
> doing so in a sustainable way for active members. We should let them know,
> we are developing a thematic fund structure for OLPC and other "investors"
> to be able to directorate the resources into specific projects.
>

I agree that they ought to be one of the many companies we approach for
funding in the future :)


> - OLPC is willing to put me in touch with deployments if I wanted to visit
>> them to do user testing of the font editor activity and font design
>> workshops for kids
>>
>
> I believe full transparency for technical contacts, year of intervention,
> native language, number of machines, etc should be public information as
> long as it is public education.
>

Leah said she could look into how often their customers upgrade Sugar, so I
guess I'll speak with her again in a couple of months when I have more
information about the font editor and some idea about the upcoming 0.110
release.

Cheers
Dave
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sebastian Silva]

El 15/06/16 a las 22:02, Dave Crossland escribió:
>
> Hi
>
> On 15 June 2016 at 12:51, Sebastian Silva  > wrote:
>
>
>
> On 15/06/16 08:40, Dave Crossland wrote:
> > However, http://www.one-education.org has just announced their new
> > unit, which is US$260 including tax (but plus shipping from
> Australia)
> >
> > Perhaps that should be the reference unit?
>
>  
>
> Just saw this closer and it looks like a really nice laptop. It's a
> shame that there is no Sugar image tailored for it. 
>
>
> When I spoke to Rangan a couple months ago, he said that there is no
> demand from the schools that One Education serves for such an image.

It all depends on your intervention principles. In education, *we see
Free Software as the only ethical and coherent option because it enables
learners to examine and improve the tools we use to learn*, or do our jobs.
 
>
> Perhaps Sugar Labs should try to get a donation for distributing
> to developers.
>
>
> Sadly https://github.com/oneeducation is not updated much, as they are
> working in private repos; he wasn't sure if they will become public
> repos after their launch ramps up.
>  
>
> It looks like a classmate-class laptop 
>
>
> What do you see the differences as between a classmate and a chromebook?
I expect to be able to install a standard or customized GNU/linux
operating system on classmate-class laptops. At a certain scale I expect
I can have it pre-installed by the supplier and produced with only
free-software supported parts. I don't expect Chromebooks will offer
these possibilities.
>  
>
> we really need a good OS proposal for those.
>
>
> Can you point to any proposals that are similar to what you have in
> mind (but perhaps not 'good,' as you define it...)?
There are many. I can point to:

  * DouDouLinux http://www.doudoulinux.org/web/english/index.html
  * Qimu http://www.qimo4kids.com/what-is-qimo/
  * Trisquel TOAST http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Trisquel_On_A_Sugar_Toast
  * DebianEdu https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/
  * Minino http://minino.galpon.org/
  * Huayra GNU Linux http://huayra.conectarigualdad.gob.ar/
  * Canaima GNU Linux http://www.canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/

They either:

  * Don't include / consider Sugar
  * Are 'all or nothing'
  * Are hard to base from
  * Don't run well on classmates [because of drivers]
  * Are dead projects or dormant

We propose development of a common /Sugar Blend /as a base for a
classmate-class laptop operating system:
https://wiki.debian.org/SugarBlend/Huayruro

Such a project would overcome the previous limitations by building on a
common base.

>
> (Operating System or Open Source? :)
I never say Open Source. :-)
>
> I'd be happy deploying 10 of them in a community center near
> Puerto Maldonado and sharing results.
>
>
> I guess you are touch with Rangan already, but perhaps we could
> schedule a call with the 3 of us if you are not :)
I'm not in contact with him but I'd love to work together towards the
goal of producing a credible and fully supported operating system for
laptops such as these (there are many brands). It would be great if we
could gather support from manufacturers and integrators for producing
and releasing a supported distribution/platform tested on specific
models of laptops.

Regards,
Sebastian
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Laura Vargas]

2016-06-16 22:12 GMT+08:00 Dave Crossland :

>
> On 14 June 2016 at 21:57, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
>> ACTION ITEM: Dave will talk with Leah at OLPC on Thursday, and ask what
>> their goals are for the next few years, when they will end support for
>> XO-1s, and what they would advise in the scenario that we break Sugar for
>> XOs in the 0.110 release, etc
>>
>
> I just spoke with Leah, and she was great to chat with!
>
> Great news Dave! hopefully more and more OLPC members will join the
conversation on the IEP list.


> - OLPC offered XO-1.75 and XO-4 upgrade kits in the past, to upgrade
> XO-1s, but they didn't sell that well; she agreed with Tony's assessment
> that users will run the XO-1 until it fails, and OLPC has no EOL date in
> mind
>
> - OLPC is still offering XO-4s (touch and non-touch) with a minimum order
> of 100 units through the end of this year for sure, and has a few units in
> stock in Miami if anyone wants to buy just one or two; and Leah said they
> could look into updating the laptop.org website to make the offer public
>
> I belive SL business is the software We should not pay for any hardware
(besides the servers) that must be provided from PC manufacturers for
development ans testing. We already have experience with Intell locally.


> - OLPC is now also offering a newer model, a classmate-spec machine, and
> will send me details about this; its rugged and branded but not got the
> pixel qi screen.
>
> - OLPC only ships Sugar, and is very happy with it, and wants to support
> the developer community although isn't sure how to so;
>

And we are very happy supporting the OLPCs too. We would like to continue
doing so in a sustainable way for active members. We should let them know,
we are developing a thematic fund structure for OLPC and other "investors"
to be able to directorate the resources into specific projects.

- OLPC is willing to put me in touch with deployments if I wanted to visit
> them to do user testing of the font editor activity and font design
> workshops for kids
>

I believe full transparency for technical contacts, year of intervention,
native language, number of machines, etc should be public information as
long as it is public education.


Regards and blessings,
Laura V
www.somosazucar.org

>
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>



-- 
Laura V.
I SomosAZUCAR.Org

Identi.ca/Skype acaire
IRC kaametza

Happy Learning!
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sean DALY]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> Where is the original text?



The old site was zapped before I could archive anything, so I just use the
Internet Archive Wayback Machine
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

Where is the original text?
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sean DALY]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> Do you think anything should be changed?



Yes, the "desktop" reference should be replaced with the original text.
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 16 June 2016 at 10:09, Sean DALY  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:50 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
>> I'm confused; what do you think should be changed on the current site?
>
>
>
> The homepage says:
> Sugar is both a desktop and a collection of Activities.
>
> This means something to GNU/Linux developers, but is meaningless to a
> teacher. It directly contradicts what the old site said on the homepage:
> Sugar offers an alternative to traditional “office-desktop” software.
>
> And, on the second page of the site:
> Sugar sets aside the traditional “office-desktop” metaphor and, through
> its Activities, engages even the youngest learners in the use of
> computation as a powerful “thing to think with.”
>

Do you think anything should be changed?
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 14 June 2016 at 21:57, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> ACTION ITEM: Dave will talk with Leah at OLPC on Thursday, and ask what
> their goals are for the next few years, when they will end support for
> XO-1s, and what they would advise in the scenario that we break Sugar for
> XOs in the 0.110 release, etc
>

I just spoke with Leah, and she was great to chat with!

- OLPC offered XO-1.75 and XO-4 upgrade kits in the past, to upgrade XO-1s,
but they didn't sell that well; she agreed with Tony's assessment that
users will run the XO-1 until it fails, and OLPC has no EOL date in mind

- OLPC is still offering XO-4s (touch and non-touch) with a minimum order
of 100 units through the end of this year for sure, and has a few units in
stock in Miami if anyone wants to buy just one or two; and Leah said they
could look into updating the laptop.org website to make the offer public

- OLPC is now also offering a newer model, a classmate-spec machine, and
will send me details about this; its rugged and branded but not got the
pixel qi screen.

- OLPC only ships Sugar, and is very happy with it, and wants to support
the developer community although isn't sure how to so;

- OLPC is willing to put me in touch with deployments if I wanted to visit
them to do user testing of the font editor activity and font design
workshops for kids
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sean DALY]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:50 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> I'm confused; what do you think should be changed on the current site?



The homepage says:
Sugar is both a desktop and a collection of Activities.

This means something to GNU/Linux developers, but is meaningless to a
teacher. It directly contradicts what the old site said on the homepage:
Sugar offers an alternative to traditional “office-desktop” software.

And, on the second page of the site:
Sugar sets aside the traditional “office-desktop” metaphor and, through its
Activities, engages even the youngest learners in the use of computation as
a powerful “thing to think with.”

Sean.
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 16 June 2016 at 08:25, Sean DALY  wrote:

> This was always the case on the old site - it's the new site, which I
> hadn't see before it went up, which brought it back.
>

I'm confused; what do you think should be changed on the current site?
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sean DALY]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> I think since Sugar launched the rise and now dominance of iOS and Android
> - which also do away with the desktop metaphor - means this is no longer as
> big a claim as it once was, and I don't think its even worth mentioning any
> more.



This was always the case on the old site - it's the new site, which I
hadn't see before it went up, which brought it back.
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 16 June 2016 at 04:34, Sean DALY  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:02 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
>> There is Sugar (now being referred to as a desktop which is ironic since
>> the Sugar HIG were intended to
>> replace the desktop metaphor) and the Sugar activities
>>
>
>
> I have always vigorously opposed referring to Sugar as a "desktop".
> GNU/Linux developers like this term which has a specific meaning for them -
> a GUI shell. It's worse than confusing for teachers for us to claim that we
> do away with the desktop metaphor with a... "desktop".
>

I think since Sugar launched the rise and now dominance of iOS and Android
- which also do away with the desktop metaphor - means this is no longer as
big a claim as it once was, and I don't think its even worth mentioning any
more.
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sean DALY]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:02 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> There is Sugar (now being referred to as a desktop which is ironic since
> the Sugar HIG were intended to
> replace the desktop metaphor) and the Sugar activities
>


I have always vigorously opposed referring to Sugar as a "desktop".
GNU/Linux developers like this term which has a specific meaning for them -
a GUI shell. It's worse than confusing for teachers for us to claim that we
do away with the desktop metaphor with a... "desktop".

Sean.
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

On 15 June 2016 at 12:51, Sebastian Silva  wrote:

>
>
> On 15/06/16 08:40, Dave Crossland wrote:
> > However, http://www.one-education.org has just announced their new
> > unit, which is US$260 including tax (but plus shipping from Australia)
> >
> > Perhaps that should be the reference unit?
>


Just saw this closer and it looks like a really nice laptop. It's a
> shame that there is no Sugar image tailored for it.


When I spoke to Rangan a couple months ago, he said that there is no demand
from the schools that One Education serves for such an image.


> Perhaps Sugar Labs should try to get a donation for distributing to
> developers.


Sadly https://github.com/oneeducation is not updated much, as they are
working in private repos; he wasn't sure if they will become public repos
after their launch ramps up.


> It looks like a classmate-class laptop
>

What do you see the differences as between a classmate and a chromebook?


> we really need a good OS proposal for those.


Can you point to any proposals that are similar to what you have in mind
(but perhaps not 'good,' as you define it...)?

(Operating System or Open Source? :)

I'd be happy deploying 10 of them in a community center near
> Puerto Maldonado and sharing results.
>

I guess you are touch with Rangan already, but perhaps we could schedule a
call with the 3 of us if you are not :)

On 15 June 2016 at 10:50, Sean DALY  wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
>
>> However, http://www.one-education.org has just announced their new unit,
>> which is US$260 including tax (but plus shipping from Australia)
>>
>> Perhaps that should be the reference unit?
>>
>
> Interesting but
> - Running Windows 10?
>

MS is supporting them.


> - Assembled in AU or elsewhere?
>

Taiwan

On 15 June 2016 at 03:17, Tony Anderson  wrote:

>
> I believe the discussion overlooks a fundamental point. The XOs (and
> particularly the XO-1s) are primarily deployed in
> the developing world (Latin America and Africa). The schools have these
> laptops as donations or as purchases by their
> government. Schools, in general, do not have funds to replace computers.
> They will just do without.
>

A good point :)


> We must continue to provide an XO solution (including XO-1 which
> represents a plurality of the machines shipped). It really doesn't matter
> in choosing a computer supports the latest gtk or webkit2 when the
> alternative is no computer at all.
>

I think this is a reasonable position.

However, the XO-1s that shipped is not a good metrics; we need to know
which XO-1s are still in active use today, and we need to know they have
upgraded to our latest release.

If there are users who are active but have not upgraded, how can we reach
them and assist them upgrading?


> If we abandon support for the XO, we present the user with static software
> which will continue to work as long as the hardware survives. However, it
> will not be able to take advantage of any new capability that Sugar Labs
> develops.
>

Right. My question is, should Sugar Labs develop new capabilities for
XO-1s? You seem to say yes. However, who is interested in doing that?

It seems GSOC/GCI students are, but really they aren't - they are
interested in doing anything we ask them to do, because they are interested
in Google's stipend and status, or they wouldn't look at open slots, and
then in the Sugar Labs mission, which is why they apply for our slots.

Eli and I are too; we love our XO-1s and would like to be able to develop
meaningful software for them.


> I think we should recognize our obligation to support users of the XO as
> long as they are in use.
>

What do you propose to do in 2020 when support for the x86 chipset is
dropped?


> This will probably mean that we need to split ASLO to identify Sugar
> activities that won't work on the XO (and try to make as many new
> capabilities available for the XO even if that means two versions).
>

I agree, but I heard there is version detection in the toolkit, so we
should use that to avoid two versions of activities.


> Also, while I agree that supporting Chromebooks or other computers
> generally available in the marketplace is a valuable direction, we need to
> be cautious. Currently, computer manufacturers have a two-year product
> life from announcement to end of production. They assume that
> computers will be replaced after five years. Their interest is in
> shortening these cycles. The smartphone folks seem to want this cycle to be
> one
> year and to take back the previous year's computer to get it off the
> market.
>
> In this context, I think adopting a reference design or assuming that
> older computers can be recycled will just repeat the issues with the XO.
>

I think we should embrace the short cycles, not fight them, and have a
fresh "new" reference design for the 1st release of each calendar year in
addition 

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sean DALY]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 7:17 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> Are they subscribed to this list?



Quite.
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 15 June 2016 at 11:02, Caryl Bigenho  wrote:

> We're "on the road" for a few days so I'm missing all the "fun." I hope
> some of the key people like Adam, Tony, Sameer, and Lionel are being
> included. They all have great global perspectives and a realistic maturity
> that should be a welcome asset in these discussions.


Are they subscribed to this list?
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sebastian Silva]

On 15/06/16 08:40, Dave Crossland wrote:
> However, http://www.one-education.org has just announced their new
> unit, which is US$260 including tax (but plus shipping from Australia)
>
> Perhaps that should be the reference unit?
Just saw this closer and it looks like a really nice laptop. It's a
shame that there is no Sugar image tailored for it. Perhaps Sugar Labs
should try to get a donation for distributing to developers. It looks
like a classmate-class laptop - we really need a good OS proposal for those.

I'd be happy deploying 10 of them in a community center near Puerto
Maldonado and sharing results.

Regards,
Sebastian
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Caryl Bigenho]

We're "on the road" for a few days so I'm missing all the "fun." I hope some of 
the key people like Adam, Tony, Sameer, and Lionel are being included. They all 
have great global perspectives and a realistic maturity that should be a 
welcome asset in these discussions.

Caryl
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 14, 2016, at 7:52 AM, Dave Crossland  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> There will be a  Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in about 6 hours via
> Google Hangouts:
> 
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/c3qn7hksl71offj7jitkjb81aa4
> 
> -- 
> Cheers
> Dave
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Sean DALY]

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 3:40 PM, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> However, http://www.one-education.org has just announced their new unit,
> which is US$260 including tax (but plus shipping from Australia)
>
> Perhaps that should be the reference unit?
>

Interesting but
- Running Windows 10?
- Assembled in AU or elsewhere?

Sean
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

On 14 June 2016 at 21:57, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> Should we support the XO-1?
>
> No:
>
> The Browse activity is fundementally broken: We can't use old browsers
> (webkit v1) on modern websites, and that hardware isn't powerful enough for
> new browsers and modern websites either; the latest v8 JavaScript JIT
> compiler doesn't work well with the exotic x86 chip on the XO-1.
>

I actually think this is not that big a deal; there's a lot of good stuff
on the web (obvious example, wikipedia) which is still fine.


> All the XOs require specially crafted Linux kernels, and OLPC doesn't have
> up to date versions so OLPC OS is stuck with Fedora 18. New versions of GTK
> are blocked on the kernel - it seems - and this turns away developers. Its
> not fine! ;)
>


As Fedora gets newer, it will work less well on the XO-1, assuming more
> resources than the XO-1 has, even if the kernel is updated. Would Puppy
> work better than Fedora going forwards, as it is something intended for
> ultra low power computers?
>

It seems Jerry Vonau worked on a Fedora 22 version in January -
https://github.com/jvonau/olpc-os-builder-1/commits/F22-host - and I just
spoke to him offline and he said he thinks Fedora 24 could be made to work
with a Fedora 18 kernel.

However, http://www.one-education.org has just announced their new unit,
which is US$260 including tax (but plus shipping from Australia)

Perhaps that should be the reference unit?
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Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

After the call we are not really closer to concluding the revision of
https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Vision_proposal_2016 or
https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Mission_proposal_2016 or
https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/2016_Goals

But, for me, the call was very interesting for me to hear Walter, Sam, Sean
and Eli's perspectives, and I invite you all to read the summary and
minutes below and let us all know your thoughts.

I've made a summary near the top of the 3 main topics we discussed.

(This is the current state of https://titanpad.com/SLVision )

- - - 8< - - -

Sugar Labs Vision

2016-06-14 Video Call: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENLWvPV8jrI

Laura's pre-meeting text:

I believe this is a vision, we can all share> why we made SN?

"Sugar has the capacity to become the main facilitator for free-libre
knowledge exchange among children-users of all continents."

why is this necesary?

Only by eliminating all obstacles for children-users to exchange knowledge
among each other, they are going to be able to build a new, more just and
enjoyable world.

In SN Knowedge exchange is measured as:

knowledge exchange = Amount of Interactions among Nodes / cycle

Facilitating the access to the net communication exchange services directly
from the OS, as SN does, facilitates the knowledge exchange among
children-users to actually happen.



*Call Summary:*


What are the important things Sugar Labs should make? Sean suggested 4
things which I phrase as:

- installable software, so its easy to try out and to use
- stable software, so nothing crashes
- lesson plans. so any adult can cultivate the education Sugar is designed
to encourage
- active user community, so any one can get help




Should we support the XO-1?

No:

The Browse activity is fundementally broken: We can't use old browsers
(webkit v1) on modern websites, and that hardware isn't powerful enough for
new browsers and modern websites either; the latest v8 JavaScript JIT
compiler doesn't work well with the exotic x86 chip on the XO-1.

All the XOs require specially crafted Linux kernels, and OLPC doesn't have
up to date versions so OLPC OS is stuck with Fedora 18. New versions of GTK
are blocked on the kernel - it seems - and this turns away developers. Its
not fine! ;)

As Fedora gets newer, it will work less well on the XO-1, assuming more
resources than the XO-1 has, even if the kernel is updated. Would Puppy
work better than Fedora going forwards, as it is something intended for
ultra low power computers?

Yes:

The XO is still exciting: Its why Eli and I were excited to join Sugar Labs
this year, as we have our own XOs, and that it is not a powerful computer
is not a problem, it is way more powerful than an Apple Macintosh from the
80s (which cost $20,000+ back then)

Few people are using Sugar without an XO, there seem to be 10,000s of kids
using XO-1s on a weekly basis, based on the ASLO stats, and high 100s (?)
using it on a generic computer.

Its easy to get an XO-1 on ebay as a developer.

Its sad that the kernel work has ended up being painted into a corner
because OLPC didnt upstream stuff (?) and we are stuck with kernel on a
private fork, stuck on fedora 18, stuck on old GTK versions, but it isn't
the end of the world. Its fine! We just need to be clear that in 2016 that
is what you have to write against, and make it easy to do so.

CentOS v7 will be supported until 2020, so making a image with the crafted
kernel and CentOS v7 packages could be ideal. Or perhaps it could target
puppylinux or something that is 'old school' and will never do Network
Manager, systemd, etc? http://puppylinux.org
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE

But all mainstream distros will stop support for x86 in 2020, so that will
be the EOL date, and we should plan for that.

ACTION ITEM: Dave will talk with Leah at OLPC on Thursday, and ask what
their goals are for the next few years, when they will end support for
XO-1s, and what they would advise in the scenario that we break Sugar for
XOs in the 0.110 release, etc






What is the reference hardware for the 0.110 release, if it is not the
XO-1?

Let's select a cheap chromebook that boots as a fedora sugar system, as
there are a lot of choices. and we know that schools are buying chromebooks
(they outsell apple these days.) Sugar Labs can buy some and offers to loan
them to developers, and the sugarlabs.org website could even sell them
direct. Before that, it can provide links to 3 vendors to buy a specific
SKU from, and clear instructions on how to get that machine up and running
with Sugar.

Then the Sugar developer community can get it really working on this
machine for 0.110.

We should not pick XOs or Classmates, these are niche machines and hard to
obtain.

We could pick a chromebook model from 1-3 years ago, and perhaps there are
batches of 100s of them somewhere to buy cheaply.


ACTION ITEM: Walter is in Santiago de Chile this week promoting Sugar and
will ask what people there suggest as a 

Re: [IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Laura Vargas]

I don't think I'll be able to assist to the Hang Out.

Still, in order to facilitate the collaborative construction of our vision
statement, I created a pad at https://titanpad.com/SLVision with my
personal vision.

I hope you all can share it at some point.

>From there I hope you all can continue building.

Regards and may the force be with us :D

2016-06-14 21:51 GMT+08:00 Dave Crossland :

> Hi
>
> There will be a  Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in about 6 hours via
> Google Hangouts:
>
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/c3qn7hksl71offj7jitkjb81aa4
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave
> ___
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep




-- 
Laura V.
I SomosAZUCAR.Org

Identi.ca/Skype acaire
IRC kaametza

Happy Learning!
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[IAEP] Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in 6 hours

[Dave Crossland]

Hi

There will be a  Sugar Labs Vision Discussion in about 6 hours via
Google Hangouts:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/c3qn7hksl71offj7jitkjb81aa4

-- 
Cheers
Dave
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