Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-22 Thread Seymour J Metz
Your PC users are probably using GNU Fortran or equivalent, and any new code 
they write will probably not compile on VSFORTAN.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tim 
Hare [haresystemssupp...@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 5:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

I know there's still a VS FORTRAN compiler on a machine I work on - is it still 
supported, or does it just "work".  Haven't seen updates for it in forever;  we 
are running down what was compiled with it that may still be running. All the 
important stuff moved to a FORTRAN supplied by another vendor that runs on PCs 
or other platforms; what's left would be dumb little utility-type programs that 
some user is loathe to turn loose of (and those users can probably tell you how 
they used to punch the input cards for the program. )

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-22 Thread Tim Hare
I know there's still a VS FORTRAN compiler on a machine I work on - is it still 
supported, or does it just "work".  Haven't seen updates for it in forever;  we 
are running down what was compiled with it that may still be running. All the 
important stuff moved to a FORTRAN supplied by another vendor that runs on PCs 
or other platforms; what's left would be dumb little utility-type programs that 
some user is loathe to turn loose of (and those users can probably tell you how 
they used to punch the input cards for the program. )

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Civility (was z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages)

2020-07-03 Thread Bob Bridges
I own myself second place in this exchange.  And it occurred to me only
after I hit  that I could have written you privately, rather than
publicly; my apologies for that.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk
down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then
look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.  -Jesse Jackson, 1993
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 08:40

> Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
>but is very sensitive about his own. 

Actually, I've been know to thank people for correcting me, something Mr.
Mills might consider doing.

> I perceive no hostility in Mr Mills' post, 

Examine his posting history and you'll discover the source of my hostility.

> Go ahead and flame me immoderately

Should you do something to warrant it, then I'll consider it.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 12:24 AM

Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
but is very sensitive about his own.  Most of us, it seems to me, forgive
him and ignore it.

You did cross a line, though, Seymour, this time.  I perceive no hostility
in Mr Mills' post, and yours positively bristled with it.  I don't think
that's hypocrisy on your part, just self-blindness.  Ease back, man, and be
less eager to posture.  Go ahead and flame me immoderately, now, and then
forget it.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 13:45

> Why do you have to be so hostile?

Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But when
you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see no
reason to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent messages.

> I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I
mentioned it.

You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I mentioned
it.


From: Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM

Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM

WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
architecture and instruction set.


From: Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM

If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

---
> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-03 Thread Seymour J Metz
> Charles clearly meant it as "If one were to..."

I'm not convinced that he meant that, and if he did it was certainly *NOT* 
clear.

> comity

I have a limited supply of courtesy; I reserve it for those who do not engage 
in gratuitous insults. 


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
zMan [zedgarhoo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 12:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

So you interpreted "If you are going to..." as "Because you are"; Charles
clearly meant it as "If one were to..."

English can be ambiguous, but comity will get you a lot further than
knee-jerk defensiveness. This applies in real life, too, and might explain
some folks' employment difficulties. Just sayin'.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 1:44 PM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> > Why do you have to be so hostile?
>
> Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But
> when you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see
> no reason to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent
> messages.
>
> > I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I
> mentioned it.
>
> You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as
> hardware compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I
> mentioned it.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
> compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
> issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
> architecture and instruction set.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> ____________
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of
> Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
> compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
> moved above line.
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> > The only thing which might not work would
> > be something which was CPU speed dependent.
>
> That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
> interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
> surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
> IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Civility (was z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages)

2020-07-03 Thread Seymour J Metz
> Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
>but is very sensitive about his own. 

Actually, I've been know to thank people for correcting me, something Mr. Mills 
might consider doing.

> I perceive no hostility in Mr Mills' post, 

Examine his posting history and you'll discover the source of my hostility.

> Go ahead and flame me immoderately

Should you do something to warrant it, then I'll consider it.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 12:24 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Civility (was z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages)

Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
but is very sensitive about his own.  Most of us, it seems to me, forgive
him and ignore it.

You did cross a line, though, Seymour, this time.  I perceive no hostility
in Mr Mills' post, and yours positively bristled with it.  I don't think
that's hypocrisy on your part, just self-blindness.  Ease back, man, and be
less eager to posture.  Go ahead and flame me immoderately, now, and then
forget it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The wit of conversation consists more in finding it in others than
showing a great deal yourself.  He who goes out of your company pleased with
his own facetiousness and ingenuity will the sooner come into it again.
-Poor Richard's Almanack, 1756 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 13:45

> Why do you have to be so hostile?

Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But when
you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see no
reason to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent messages.

> I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I
mentioned it.

You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I mentioned
it.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM

Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM

WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
architecture and instruction set.


From: Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM

If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

---
> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: When did .net become obsolete? was Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-03 Thread R.S.

W dniu 02.07.2020 o 16:39, Clark Morris pisze:

[Default] On 2 Jul 2020 02:13:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.) wrote:


snip

BTW: As a mainframe bigot I sometimes am forced to explain why so old
things are still in use. Yes, z14 or z15 is veery old. As old as
z/OS 2.4, or DB2. It is hard job, because usually nobody want to hear
answers, but one of my favorite is the wheel. Wheel is quite old idea,
but still in common use. They say M$ introduced a car without wheels or
the the wheels are enhanced - square...
Last, but not least: some 20 years old COBOL code is not obsoleted by
changes in the OS/compiler/whatever, but code on Windows *had* to be
rewritten several times during this period. Dot net? It was so modern
just few years ago and now is obsolete. Note: that means programming
effort just to upgrade system, without any application (business logic)
changes.

When did dot net become obsolete?  Versions earlier than 3 are no
longer supported but when I did a search for dot net both the
Microsoft pointers and the wiki article seemed to show it is very much
alive and is now open source.  The original implantation was well
before 2010 and was starting to be open sourced before then.


I am not .NET specialist, but I work with them and they are working on 
migration from .NET to dot-net-core.
According to en.wiki: It is a cross-platformsuccessor to.NET Framework 
.

As far as I know English "successor" is the key.

Note: the above does not mean any .NET application will stop working 
suddenly withing few weeks. It even doesn't mean that no compilation of 
.NET will be possible.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





==

Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:

- powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
- usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś 
na dysku).
Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać 
tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
- delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have 
printed out or saved).
This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used 
exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates 
(copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the 
law and may be penalised.

mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread zMan
So you interpreted "If you are going to..." as "Because you are"; Charles
clearly meant it as "If one were to..."

English can be ambiguous, but comity will get you a lot further than
knee-jerk defensiveness. This applies in real life, too, and might explain
some folks' employment difficulties. Just sayin'.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 1:44 PM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> > Why do you have to be so hostile?
>
> Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But
> when you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see
> no reason to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent
> messages.
>
> > I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I
> mentioned it.
>
> You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as
> hardware compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I
> mentioned it.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
> compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
> issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
> architecture and instruction set.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> ________________
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of
> Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
> compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
> moved above line.
>
> Charles
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages
>
> > The only thing which might not work would
> > be something which was CPU speed dependent.
>
> That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
> interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
> surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
> IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Civility (was z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages)

2020-07-02 Thread Bob Bridges
Mr Metz resolutely straightens everyone else's pictures, in this listserv,
but is very sensitive about his own.  Most of us, it seems to me, forgive
him and ignore it.

You did cross a line, though, Seymour, this time.  I perceive no hostility
in Mr Mills' post, and yours positively bristled with it.  I don't think
that's hypocrisy on your part, just self-blindness.  Ease back, man, and be
less eager to posture.  Go ahead and flame me immoderately, now, and then
forget it.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The wit of conversation consists more in finding it in others than
showing a great deal yourself.  He who goes out of your company pleased with
his own facetiousness and ingenuity will the sooner come into it again.
-Poor Richard's Almanack, 1756 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 13:45

> Why do you have to be so hostile? 

Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But when
you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see no
reason to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent messages.

> I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I
mentioned it.

You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I mentioned
it.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM

Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM

WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
architecture and instruction set.


From: Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM

If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line.

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

--- 
> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Seymour J Metz
> Why do you have to be so hostile? 

Why do you have to be such a hypocrite? I'm not hostile in general. But when 
you rant about imaginary hostility and gratuitously insult me, I see no reason 
to be concerned with your delicate feelings in subsequent messages.

> I did not see any mention of OS compatibility. That is precisely why I 
> mentioned it.

You wrote "If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware 
compatibility"; that certainly seems to be a false claim that I mentioned it.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
architecture and instruction set.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Charles Mills
Why do you have to be so hostile? I did not see any mention of OS
compatibility. That is precisely why I mentioned it. I raised additional
issues beyond what you raised. WTF indeed.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:48 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all
architecture and instruction set.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Seymour J Metz
WTF? Where do you see "OS compatibility"? The issues that I raised were all 
architecture and instruction set.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Charles Mills
If you are going to include OS compatibility as well as hardware
compatibility then there are issues such as control blocks that have been
moved above line. 

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 9:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that
IBM carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Seymour J Metz
Try running, e.g., IBM 7094 EMULATOR  FOR THE SYSTEM/360 MODEL 85 UNDER OS/360 
PROGRAM NUMBER 360C-EU-134. 


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Joe 
Monk [joemon...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 6:55 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

Honestly, this whole discussion is kind of pointless, no?

z/os  IBM/390 IBM/370 IBM/360 all share ... instruction set. While the
newer models all have newer instructions, object code assembled on a 360 is
just as valid today as it was in 1960.

Joe

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 4:13 AM R.S.  wrote:

> W dniu 01.07.2020 o 20:57, Frank Swarbrick pisze:
> > Thanks Tim.
> >
> > I can't imagine being comfortable writing new code, at least, for a
> compiler that has not been updated in 35 years, but maybe that's just me.
> 
> >
> > Now that we know what languages are still supported, I am still curious
> if anyone out there is actually still using them, and if so, why.
>
> 1. I'm pretty sure there are users of those compilers, this is the only
> reason to keep them under support.
> 2. I guess the users do not create new applications from scratch rather
> they maintain and update existing applications. Is it safe to use so old
> compiler? It is safe to use *supported* compiler. Age has no big meaning
> here, what would you say for 7 years old, but unsupported compiler?
>
> BTW: As a mainframe bigot I sometimes am forced to explain why so old
> things are still in use. Yes, z14 or z15 is veery old. As old as
> z/OS 2.4, or DB2. It is hard job, because usually nobody want to hear
> answers, but one of my favorite is the wheel. Wheel is quite old idea,
> but still in common use. They say M$ introduced a car without wheels or
> the the wheels are enhanced - square...
> Last, but not least: some 20 years old COBOL code is not obsoleted by
> changes in the OS/compiler/whatever, but code on Windows *had* to be
> rewritten several times during this period. Dot net? It was so modern
> just few years ago and now is obsolete. Note: that means programming
> effort just to upgrade system, without any application (business logic)
> changes.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
>
>
>
> ==
>
> Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:
>
> - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
> - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub
> zapisałeś na dysku).
> Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może
> wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia
> (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania,
> narusza prawo i może podlegać karze.
>
> mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/11sx4kd-r24NXpEnvqzB6vJVt3n4xNQ8hlxyIlLyTqeHrBh1t2hGze1c5JQEIt_D_RMGFt79ys-IkwmwGK7jUxkvyIL-ectqjZzyax4H4NlPHAPAx2FRZRJNTG7AnOqAmA3SVqwmpqBOxYEHlgWCz-6-4z2xVMBrux_n9Ch_P-yZIiSPd3dBquoCrwyuV8TbN6SJ3uVVs5ji7jkk0pFMbKlmRq0y5CPBU3O_q3L5YuSdikHVRypkyIYrmSpJiD9QUwpEw4OWGDhXERbKj9cerUhwGLwRqVdqBZUaJmHuyJuYKLCZRls_1D7zpApiAsrw7iEafQCVLB-s5YIQwkPDn2JSBr-Jw2N_QiKVTBZfLDn02NLK_mwTMBCsYJQ-t7lld6AExqVz-t74oh2Z7urh8A4_hgVmval94Jur6sn7BEeFLI278OsRFwlz8YCQsKEHN/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl,
>  e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
> XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP:
> 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na
> 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.
>
> If you are not the addressee of this message:
>
> - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
> - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have
> printed out or saved).
> This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used
> exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who
> disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar
> action, violates the law and may be penalised.
>
> mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950
> Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/11sx4kd-r24NXpEnvqzB6vJVt3n4xNQ8hlxyIlLyTqeHrBh1t2hGze1c5JQEIt_D_RMGFt79ys-IkwmwGK7jUxkvyIL-ectqjZzyax4H4NlPHAPAx2FRZRJNTG7AnOqAmA3SVqwmpqBOxYEHlgWCz-6-4z2xVMBrux_n9Ch_P-yZIiSPd3dBquoCrwyuV8TbN6SJ3uVVs5ji7jkk0pFMbKlmRq0y5CPBU3O_q3L5YuSdikHVRypkyIYrmSpJiD9QUwpEw4OWGDhXERbKj9cerUhwGLwRqVdqBZUaJmHuyJuYKLCZRls_1D7zpApiAsrw7iEafQCVLB-s5YIQwkPDn2JSBr-Jw2N_QiKVTBZfLDn02NLK_mwTMBCsYJQ-t7lld6AExqVz-t74oh2Z7urh8A4_hgVmval94Jur6sn7BEeFLI278OsRFwlz8YCQsKEHN/http%3A%2F%2Fw

Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Seymour J Metz
> The only thing which might not work would
> be something which was CPU speed dependent.

That's not the only thing. A program that relies on getting certain program 
interrupts might fail. Then there's the ASCII bit, although I would be very 
surprised if anybody actually used it. There are optional instructions that IBM 
carried over. There's probably more that I haven't thought of.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
John McKown [john.archie.mck...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 7:12 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 5:56 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

> Honestly, this whole discussion is kind of pointless, no?
>
> z/os  IBM/390 IBM/370 IBM/360 all share ... instruction set. While the
> newer models all have newer instructions, object code assembled on a 360 is
> just as valid today as it was in 1960.
>

Yeap. IEFBR14 still works! {grin} The only thing which might not work would
be something which was CPU speed dependent. And such programs are
specifically mentioned in the POPS as "non-conformant" (my word). This
generally doesn't mean much, but it can lead to a "race" condition being
observed on a faster or slower machine in an improperly coded multitasking
environment. Or even an environment which has more or fewer CPs enabled.



>
> Joe
>
> --
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: When did .net become obsolete? was Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Joe Monk
.NET 3.5 includes all earlier versions.

Current .NET is 4.8.x which include 4.6.2 and 4.7.2.

Joe

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:39 AM Clark Morris  wrote:

> [Default] On 2 Jul 2020 02:13:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
> r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.) wrote:
>
> >> snip
> >
> >BTW: As a mainframe bigot I sometimes am forced to explain why so old
> >things are still in use. Yes, z14 or z15 is veery old. As old as
> >z/OS 2.4, or DB2. It is hard job, because usually nobody want to hear
> >answers, but one of my favorite is the wheel. Wheel is quite old idea,
> >but still in common use. They say M$ introduced a car without wheels or
> >the the wheels are enhanced - square...
> >Last, but not least: some 20 years old COBOL code is not obsoleted by
> >changes in the OS/compiler/whatever, but code on Windows *had* to be
> >rewritten several times during this period. Dot net? It was so modern
> >just few years ago and now is obsolete. Note: that means programming
> >effort just to upgrade system, without any application (business logic)
> >changes.
>
> When did dot net become obsolete?  Versions earlier than 3 are no
> longer supported but when I did a search for dot net both the
> Microsoft pointers and the wiki article seemed to show it is very much
> alive and is now open source.  The original implantation was well
> before 2010 and was starting to be open sourced before then.
>
> Clark Morris
>
> Clark Morris
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


When did .net become obsolete? was Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Clark Morris
[Default] On 2 Jul 2020 02:13:34 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.) wrote:

>> snip
>
>BTW: As a mainframe bigot I sometimes am forced to explain why so old 
>things are still in use. Yes, z14 or z15 is veery old. As old as 
>z/OS 2.4, or DB2. It is hard job, because usually nobody want to hear 
>answers, but one of my favorite is the wheel. Wheel is quite old idea, 
>but still in common use. They say M$ introduced a car without wheels or 
>the the wheels are enhanced - square...
>Last, but not least: some 20 years old COBOL code is not obsoleted by 
>changes in the OS/compiler/whatever, but code on Windows *had* to be 
>rewritten several times during this period. Dot net? It was so modern 
>just few years ago and now is obsolete. Note: that means programming 
>effort just to upgrade system, without any application (business logic) 
>changes.

When did dot net become obsolete?  Versions earlier than 3 are no
longer supported but when I did a search for dot net both the
Microsoft pointers and the wiki article seemed to show it is very much
alive and is now open source.  The original implantation was well
before 2010 and was starting to be open sourced before then.

Clark Morris

Clark Morris 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Clark Morris
[Default] On 1 Jul 2020 21:39:05 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
sme...@gmu.edu (Seymour J Metz) wrote:

>Do you mean only that IBM has changed the underlying hardware used to 
>implement what they called Machine Interface (MI) on the S/38, or do you mean 
>that they have changed the MI itself?
I don't know enough about the boxes to say.  I just was fairly certain
that the hardware instruction set for the s38/AS400 differed from IBM
i.

Clark Morris

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread John McKown
On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 5:56 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

> Honestly, this whole discussion is kind of pointless, no?
>
> z/os  IBM/390 IBM/370 IBM/360 all share ... instruction set. While the
> newer models all have newer instructions, object code assembled on a 360 is
> just as valid today as it was in 1960.
>

Yeap. IEFBR14 still works! {grin} The only thing which might not work would
be something which was CPU speed dependent. And such programs are
specifically mentioned in the POPS as "non-conformant" (my word). This
generally doesn't mean much, but it can lead to a "race" condition being
observed on a faster or slower machine in an improperly coded multitasking
environment. Or even an environment which has more or fewer CPs enabled.



>
> Joe
>
> --
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread Joe Monk
Honestly, this whole discussion is kind of pointless, no?

z/os  IBM/390 IBM/370 IBM/360 all share ... instruction set. While the
newer models all have newer instructions, object code assembled on a 360 is
just as valid today as it was in 1960.

Joe

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 4:13 AM R.S.  wrote:

> W dniu 01.07.2020 o 20:57, Frank Swarbrick pisze:
> > Thanks Tim.
> >
> > I can't imagine being comfortable writing new code, at least, for a
> compiler that has not been updated in 35 years, but maybe that's just me.
> 
> >
> > Now that we know what languages are still supported, I am still curious
> if anyone out there is actually still using them, and if so, why.
>
> 1. I'm pretty sure there are users of those compilers, this is the only
> reason to keep them under support.
> 2. I guess the users do not create new applications from scratch rather
> they maintain and update existing applications. Is it safe to use so old
> compiler? It is safe to use *supported* compiler. Age has no big meaning
> here, what would you say for 7 years old, but unsupported compiler?
>
> BTW: As a mainframe bigot I sometimes am forced to explain why so old
> things are still in use. Yes, z14 or z15 is veery old. As old as
> z/OS 2.4, or DB2. It is hard job, because usually nobody want to hear
> answers, but one of my favorite is the wheel. Wheel is quite old idea,
> but still in common use. They say M$ introduced a car without wheels or
> the the wheels are enhanced - square...
> Last, but not least: some 20 years old COBOL code is not obsoleted by
> changes in the OS/compiler/whatever, but code on Windows *had* to be
> rewritten several times during this period. Dot net? It was so modern
> just few years ago and now is obsolete. Note: that means programming
> effort just to upgrade system, without any application (business logic)
> changes.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
>
>
>
> ==
>
> Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:
>
> - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
> - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub
> zapisałeś na dysku).
> Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może
> wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia
> (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania,
> narusza prawo i może podlegać karze.
>
> mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,
> www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
> XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP:
> 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na
> 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.
>
> If you are not the addressee of this message:
>
> - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
> - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have
> printed out or saved).
> This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used
> exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who
> disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar
> action, violates the law and may be penalised.
>
> mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950
> Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the
> Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court
> Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital
> amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-02 Thread R.S.

W dniu 01.07.2020 o 20:57, Frank Swarbrick pisze:

Thanks Tim.

I can't imagine being comfortable writing new code, at least, for a compiler 
that has not been updated in 35 years, but maybe that's just me.  

Now that we know what languages are still supported, I am still curious if 
anyone out there is actually still using them, and if so, why.


1. I'm pretty sure there are users of those compilers, this is the only 
reason to keep them under support.
2. I guess the users do not create new applications from scratch rather 
they maintain and update existing applications. Is it safe to use so old 
compiler? It is safe to use *supported* compiler. Age has no big meaning 
here, what would you say for 7 years old, but unsupported compiler?


BTW: As a mainframe bigot I sometimes am forced to explain why so old 
things are still in use. Yes, z14 or z15 is veery old. As old as 
z/OS 2.4, or DB2. It is hard job, because usually nobody want to hear 
answers, but one of my favorite is the wheel. Wheel is quite old idea, 
but still in common use. They say M$ introduced a car without wheels or 
the the wheels are enhanced - square...
Last, but not least: some 20 years old COBOL code is not obsoleted by 
changes in the OS/compiler/whatever, but code on Windows *had* to be 
rewritten several times during this period. Dot net? It was so modern 
just few years ago and now is obsolete. Note: that means programming 
effort just to upgrade system, without any application (business logic) 
changes.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





==

Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:

- powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
- usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś 
na dysku).
Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać 
tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
- delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have 
printed out or saved).
This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used 
exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates 
(copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the 
law and may be penalised.

mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-01 Thread Seymour J Metz
Do you mean only that IBM has changed the underlying hardware used to implement 
what they called Machine Interface (MI) on the S/38, or do you mean that they 
have changed the MI itself?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Clark Morris [cfmt...@uniserve.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 9:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

[Default] On 1 Jul 2020 14:43:51 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
sme...@gmu.edu (Seymour J Metz) wrote:

>Comfort isn't the only issue. When they change the law such that the code no 
>longer complies, then you have to bite the bullet and update it? Lost the 
>source code? There could be legal consequences. YMMV.
>
>There used to be an operating system with no support for running from an 
>object deck; the compilers were fast enough that it wasn't an issue. I 
>sometimes think they had the right idea.

That reads like MUMPS or AS400/IBM-i.  I know AS400/IBM-i have changed
instruction sets.

Clark Morris

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-01 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 21:43:42 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Comfort isn't the only issue. When they change the law such that the code no 
>longer complies, then you have to bite the bullet and update it? Lost the 
>source code? There could be legal consequences. YMMV.
>
For such reasons, programmers should always regression
test with a new compiler, Runtime, OS, hardware, ...
before the previous one becomes unavailable.

>There used to be an operating system with no support for running from an 
>object deck; the compilers were fast enough that it wasn't an issue. I 
>sometimes think they had the right idea.
> 
NCAR wrote a custom OS for their CDC 6600, optimized for
scientific computation, and initially supported no object decks.
I believe they relented after a while.

OTOH, ANL/UIUC set a strict time limit on jobs that did *any*
compilation whatver, deeming them development rather than
production.

>
>From: Frank Swarbrick
>Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 2:57 PM
>
>I can't imagine being comfortable writing new code, at least, for a compiler 
>that has not been updated in 35 years, but maybe that's just me.  

-- gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-01 Thread Clark Morris
[Default] On 1 Jul 2020 14:43:51 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
sme...@gmu.edu (Seymour J Metz) wrote:

>Comfort isn't the only issue. When they change the law such that the code no 
>longer complies, then you have to bite the bullet and update it? Lost the 
>source code? There could be legal consequences. YMMV.
>
>There used to be an operating system with no support for running from an 
>object deck; the compilers were fast enough that it wasn't an issue. I 
>sometimes think they had the right idea.

That reads like MUMPS or AS400/IBM-i.  I know AS400/IBM-i have changed
instruction sets.

Clark Morris 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-01 Thread Seymour J Metz
Comfort isn't the only issue. When they change the law such that the code no 
longer complies, then you have to bite the bullet and update it? Lost the 
source code? There could be legal consequences. YMMV.

There used to be an operating system with no support for running from an object 
deck; the compilers were fast enough that it wasn't an issue. I sometimes think 
they had the right idea.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 2:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

Thanks Tim.

I can't imagine being comfortable writing new code, at least, for a compiler 
that has not been updated in 35 years, but maybe that's just me.  

Now that we know what languages are still supported, I am still curious if 
anyone out there is actually still using them, and if so, why.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Timothy Sipples 
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 12:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

Frank Swarbrick asked:
>Is Pascal also still supported/used?

IBM VS Pascal (5668-767) is still IBM marketed and supported:

https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=M618799U16404L24

The New Stanford Pascal Compiler is also available:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sB--SIcS3bNP44dQ4KdTXCoyd8kZvvd-kJbfoC35M8BPzsc1Fi_YlkR1CRoefcR-jrOd2GHbYP1NF_P4RDAMpI2WzV8ld0qg3H5CbezXyiLgUkOOIeOykOGOEOgUIhK_RGS2vbRm1UN_fEFff_1qSIRSq1ehOOvHjHikYVidu0uTVrub14L_xKKQJdmYcVFzhhIhmWp39_koENrfyoi1MuiMSBe6qMf8g5EPwLz22UyOGyk-WLl5N_jqnPYt8pjxZtIH8t7W1crbr-Er_eF2317LAqFKgwk94ZpJM74iAc_46rUhLc3Iij88HC425vciSyy1KunQExt5GEKK8x6G0i20yAgmt7kviqJ8w9r4O_EI-SJL0pFQ53-wCJZcUEGdmI8dYLsmWtzm7dY2V7oJG6KoYZpfSAayOm60FLruyi5G1afaul91WEJ-Ef8FTL_N/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FStanfordPascal%2FPascal
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HAb653ryBxQR3Wqlt-kAt_0ep2XlSp6E0qZwvT2TjkL9qut9NK1J6V3woI7RXznUfgnPPaYwTTx1hGUzMBvgRk2R6UiazlCiQ_dlQXJUaQq6Qba3uowoTQ-qHUGRDICKC_Gp_38PTMljay5dOH407NFig3UlJpnaU23jBgMiewUy7vCGYunyhuHqx3QUeZeTXFQeyhE-3OfQZ0T2dChhV5HrVKmgBznipPIThx2vnrx-sZMYJQAh2BqMUYnHViFf4rpiWJu0ceYuwJZyYBlgolc_Si2R66Ke0lupt7bpXYx7mrG1bsILHCH7s9lQ-DrzV1lnxgXQi4y5vXwaoF788E7FSkRXcO7_NgA4eEQeHBjAzj06tEJzs-vTRUaCxuODDEjsxllF_6vzfgu67PSrV-K_zZBmVMP4i-6Cy6gmcauyWMY-0KXD-YILHNsosfgh/http%3A%2F%2Fbernd-oppolzer.de%2Fjob9.htm

Here are some more classic programming language compilers that are
currently IBM marketed and supported, in no particular order:

APL2 (5688-228)
https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=D543769I30278S34

BASIC (5665-948)
https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=G568183M36263P96

RPG II
This one is a little extra obscure, but yes, it's still IBM marketed and
supported. The IBM Program Number is 5740-RG1. The z/VSE variant
(5746-RG1) is listed more visibly here:
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/dosvs-rpg-ii
There's a little bit of confusion about RPG in large part because there
was a relatively briefly marketed RPG compiler introduced years later
called "IBM SAA RPG/370." This specific, very different compiler
(5688-127) was withdrawn from marketing and is no longer IBM supported,
but the previously introduced RPG II compiler is still an active IBM
product.

IBM's Prolog, Lisp, Ada, Algol, Smalltalk, and COMTRAN compilers are
withdrawn and past their End of Service dates, but it's likely there are
some of these compiled programs still running, even with some periodic
code changes. In some cases there may be available and supported
programming language offerings from other parties. Some may target Java
Virtual Machine (JVM) and/or z/OS Container Extensions (zCX) runtimes.

There's a supported JOVIAL compiler available for z/OS and z/VM:
http://secure-web.cisco.com/10jC2ZlEGWxmgqnPGoV_R47MxczutnqTaeRlUjE6rN-WGhpnfL7h5MUA8cWOqO07jY0K8e9vDr10OnU7yooO7l_jLfaigkGz49p_CciXXeaIWyEMrVRozlV5paU3WLlwRz40-dYzDfIiEjMlr3y87aUhjKn4A3vbD-RjRAbN4p3D4VDlaRTyaeKuGNfYjzwQYQGmYn1Cv8ZurR7jLVoU39viqce9i8ZpqRLFNexARrunAK-XFMPsLMjhfcMD01p5GAE4NeX9JSF12T3witEKoSBjv1hw0g0Pk_y_97fg5BUOY8PPf_jxHPHj6e8H0DX1teKhabR88GKNriIwkxypvSZv_5sn3PSlaD3wIkW20ooPdbtOFQxR6g29q2S_-96ZKc1vCoqmvKurE548OfPr3xCMKxRRb20kUQL1MMxKwIvnVOzho5_2Rfu4AGN0VAhE-/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seadeo.com%2FIBM_Compilers.htm

If there's some other programming language's status you'd like me to
research, please ask. And obviously IBM markets and supports C, C++, REXX,
COBOL, PL/I, Java, EGL, HLASM, and several other programming languages
(JavaScript, Swift, Python, IBM Migration Utility)

- - - - - - - - - -
Timothy Sipples
I.T. Architect Executive
Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions
IBM Z & LinuxONE
- - - - - - - - - -
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

-

Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-01 Thread Frank Swarbrick
Thanks Tim.

I can't imagine being comfortable writing new code, at least, for a compiler 
that has not been updated in 35 years, but maybe that's just me.  

Now that we know what languages are still supported, I am still curious if 
anyone out there is actually still using them, and if so, why.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Timothy Sipples 
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 12:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

Frank Swarbrick asked:
>Is Pascal also still supported/used?

IBM VS Pascal (5668-767) is still IBM marketed and supported:

https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=M618799U16404L24

The New Stanford Pascal Compiler is also available:

https://github.com/StanfordPascal/Pascal
http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm

Here are some more classic programming language compilers that are
currently IBM marketed and supported, in no particular order:

APL2 (5688-228)
https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=D543769I30278S34

BASIC (5665-948)
https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=G568183M36263P96

RPG II
This one is a little extra obscure, but yes, it's still IBM marketed and
supported. The IBM Program Number is 5740-RG1. The z/VSE variant
(5746-RG1) is listed more visibly here:
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/dosvs-rpg-ii
There's a little bit of confusion about RPG in large part because there
was a relatively briefly marketed RPG compiler introduced years later
called "IBM SAA RPG/370." This specific, very different compiler
(5688-127) was withdrawn from marketing and is no longer IBM supported,
but the previously introduced RPG II compiler is still an active IBM
product.

IBM's Prolog, Lisp, Ada, Algol, Smalltalk, and COMTRAN compilers are
withdrawn and past their End of Service dates, but it's likely there are
some of these compiled programs still running, even with some periodic
code changes. In some cases there may be available and supported
programming language offerings from other parties. Some may target Java
Virtual Machine (JVM) and/or z/OS Container Extensions (zCX) runtimes.

There's a supported JOVIAL compiler available for z/OS and z/VM:
http://www.seadeo.com/IBM_Compilers.htm

If there's some other programming language's status you'd like me to
research, please ask. And obviously IBM markets and supports C, C++, REXX,
COBOL, PL/I, Java, EGL, HLASM, and several other programming languages
(JavaScript, Swift, Python, IBM Migration Utility)

- - - - - - - - - -
Timothy Sipples
I.T. Architect Executive
Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions
IBM Z & LinuxONE
- - - - - - - - - -
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-01 Thread Paul Gilmartin
On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 14:07:08 +0800, Timothy Sipples wrote:
>
>... And obviously IBM markets and supports ..., REXX, ...
>
As long as "support" isn't construed to imply ANSI conformance.

-- gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-01 Thread zMan
/me wonders how many script kiddies have gotten excited to learn there's
apparently a language specifically for creating role-playing games...

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 2:07 AM Timothy Sipples  wrote:

> Frank Swarbrick asked:
> >Is Pascal also still supported/used?
>
> IBM VS Pascal (5668-767) is still IBM marketed and supported:
>
> https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=M618799U16404L24
>
> The New Stanford Pascal Compiler is also available:
>
> https://github.com/StanfordPascal/Pascal
> http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm
>
> Here are some more classic programming language compilers that are
> currently IBM marketed and supported, in no particular order:
>
> APL2 (5688-228)
> https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=D543769I30278S34
>
> BASIC (5665-948)
> https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=G568183M36263P96
>
> RPG II
> This one is a little extra obscure, but yes, it's still IBM marketed and
> supported. The IBM Program Number is 5740-RG1. The z/VSE variant
> (5746-RG1) is listed more visibly here:
> https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/dosvs-rpg-ii
> There's a little bit of confusion about RPG in large part because there
> was a relatively briefly marketed RPG compiler introduced years later
> called "IBM SAA RPG/370." This specific, very different compiler
> (5688-127) was withdrawn from marketing and is no longer IBM supported,
> but the previously introduced RPG II compiler is still an active IBM
> product.
>
> IBM's Prolog, Lisp, Ada, Algol, Smalltalk, and COMTRAN compilers are
> withdrawn and past their End of Service dates, but it's likely there are
> some of these compiled programs still running, even with some periodic
> code changes. In some cases there may be available and supported
> programming language offerings from other parties. Some may target Java
> Virtual Machine (JVM) and/or z/OS Container Extensions (zCX) runtimes.
>
> There's a supported JOVIAL compiler available for z/OS and z/VM:
> http://www.seadeo.com/IBM_Compilers.htm
>
> If there's some other programming language's status you'd like me to
> research, please ask. And obviously IBM markets and supports C, C++, REXX,
> COBOL, PL/I, Java, EGL, HLASM, and several other programming languages
> (JavaScript, Swift, Python, IBM Migration Utility)
>
> - - - - - - - - - -
> Timothy Sipples
> I.T. Architect Executive
> Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions
> IBM Z & LinuxONE
> - - - - - - - - - -
> E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-07-01 Thread Timothy Sipples
Frank Swarbrick asked:
>Is Pascal also still supported/used?

IBM VS Pascal (5668-767) is still IBM marketed and supported:

https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=M618799U16404L24

The New Stanford Pascal Compiler is also available:

https://github.com/StanfordPascal/Pascal
http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm

Here are some more classic programming language compilers that are 
currently IBM marketed and supported, in no particular order:

APL2 (5688-228)
https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=D543769I30278S34

BASIC (5665-948)
https://www.ibm.com/support/lifecycle/#/details?q45=G568183M36263P96

RPG II
This one is a little extra obscure, but yes, it's still IBM marketed and 
supported. The IBM Program Number is 5740-RG1. The z/VSE variant 
(5746-RG1) is listed more visibly here:
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/dosvs-rpg-ii
There's a little bit of confusion about RPG in large part because there 
was a relatively briefly marketed RPG compiler introduced years later 
called "IBM SAA RPG/370." This specific, very different compiler 
(5688-127) was withdrawn from marketing and is no longer IBM supported, 
but the previously introduced RPG II compiler is still an active IBM 
product.

IBM's Prolog, Lisp, Ada, Algol, Smalltalk, and COMTRAN compilers are 
withdrawn and past their End of Service dates, but it's likely there are 
some of these compiled programs still running, even with some periodic 
code changes. In some cases there may be available and supported 
programming language offerings from other parties. Some may target Java 
Virtual Machine (JVM) and/or z/OS Container Extensions (zCX) runtimes.

There's a supported JOVIAL compiler available for z/OS and z/VM:
http://www.seadeo.com/IBM_Compilers.htm

If there's some other programming language's status you'd like me to 
research, please ask. And obviously IBM markets and supports C, C++, REXX, 
COBOL, PL/I, Java, EGL, HLASM, and several other programming languages 
(JavaScript, Swift, Python, IBM Migration Utility)

- - - - - - - - - -
Timothy Sipples
I.T. Architect Executive
Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions
IBM Z & LinuxONE
- - - - - - - - - -
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-06-30 Thread Seymour J Metz
> During the time of the 370s, I knew of a company which kept
> a 360 because it could do 1401 emulation in order to run a
> critical program.

So could any S/370 smaller than a 165.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Arthur [ibmmain.10.ats...@xoxy.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 3:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

On 30 Jun 2020 12:18:01 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
(Message-ID:)
frank.swarbr...@outlook.com (Frank Swarbrick) wrote:

>Some time ago I noticed that z/OS Language Environment has
>support for both "FORTRAN IV" and "VS FORTRAN" (FORTRAN 77
>standard), even though the latest Fortran compiler hasn't
>been enhanced since 1993 (??).  I've been learning modern
>Fortran (standards Fortran 90, 95, 03 and 08) using GNU
>Fortran and actually quite like it, but I can't imagine
>using anything prior to the 1990 standard.  Anyway, I am
>curious if anyone uses Fortran on z/OS in their shop, and
>if so, why?
>
>Is Pascal also still supported/used?  I don't see any
>mention of it in LE documentation.  Are there any other
>"legacy" MVS languages still in use (i.e., ones that
>haven't been updated in the last 30 years...)?  I've seen
>mention of APL2 on MVS, and maybe even Smalltalk?

I'm going to answer what I take as the tone of your
questions, rather than the specifics.

In a production environment, once a program has been
written and debugged, when it has been working fine for
years, you don't want to touch it, if at all possible.
Unless it needs updating, you just keep running it,
regardless of what language it was written in.

I someone wants to recompile a FORTRAN IV program with a
modern compiler, that person is taking the responsibility
for its future behavior, and that its behavior will match
what it was before. That person is also taking
responsibility for making sure that the source for the
program is actually the source that was compiled decades
ago, when there may be no one left from that programming
team. And think of the hours to be lost in creating tests,
running them, and going through all of the quality-control
paperwork involved; and if it's only in order to recompile
with a modern compiler, all that work and time is just to
end with the same functionality you already had.

During the time of the 370s, I knew of a company which kept
a 360 because it could do 1401 emulation in order to run a
critical program. While I have no actual knowledge, I have
little doubt that there are companies running old FORTRAN
code, RPG, COBOL Report Writer, and pretty much anything
else you can think of.

Downward compatibility means you can say, "If it ain't
broke, don't fix it."

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-06-30 Thread Arthur
On 30 Jun 2020 12:18:01 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main 
(Message-ID:) 
frank.swarbr...@outlook.com (Frank Swarbrick) wrote:


Some time ago I noticed that z/OS Language Environment has 
support for both "FORTRAN IV" and "VS FORTRAN" (FORTRAN 77 
standard), even though the latest Fortran compiler hasn't 
been enhanced since 1993 (??).  I've been learning modern 
Fortran (standards Fortran 90, 95, 03 and 08) using GNU 
Fortran and actually quite like it, but I can't imagine 
using anything prior to the 1990 standard.  Anyway, I am 
curious if anyone uses Fortran on z/OS in their shop, and 
if so, why?


Is Pascal also still supported/used?  I don't see any 
mention of it in LE documentation.  Are there any other 
"legacy" MVS languages still in use (i.e., ones that 
haven't been updated in the last 30 years...)?  I've seen 
mention of APL2 on MVS, and maybe even Smalltalk?


I'm going to answer what I take as the tone of your 
questions, rather than the specifics.


In a production environment, once a program has been 
written and debugged, when it has been working fine for 
years, you don't want to touch it, if at all possible. 
Unless it needs updating, you just keep running it, 
regardless of what language it was written in.


I someone wants to recompile a FORTRAN IV program with a 
modern compiler, that person is taking the responsibility 
for its future behavior, and that its behavior will match 
what it was before. That person is also taking 
responsibility for making sure that the source for the 
program is actually the source that was compiled decades 
ago, when there may be no one left from that programming 
team. And think of the hours to be lost in creating tests, 
running them, and going through all of the quality-control 
paperwork involved; and if it's only in order to recompile 
with a modern compiler, all that work and time is just to 
end with the same functionality you already had.


During the time of the 370s, I knew of a company which kept 
a 360 because it could do 1401 emulation in order to run a 
critical program. While I have no actual knowledge, I have 
little doubt that there are companies running old FORTRAN 
code, RPG, COBOL Report Writer, and pretty much anything 
else you can think of.


Downward compatibility means you can say, "If it ain't 
broke, don't fix it."  


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


z/OS use of "legacy" programming languages

2020-06-30 Thread Frank Swarbrick
Some time ago I noticed that z/OS Language Environment has support for both 
"FORTRAN IV" and "VS FORTRAN" (FORTRAN 77 standard), even though the latest 
Fortran compiler hasn't been enhanced since 1993 (??).  I've been learning 
modern Fortran (standards Fortran 90, 95, 03 and 08) using GNU Fortran and 
actually quite like it, but I can't imagine using anything prior to the 1990 
standard.  Anyway, I am curious if anyone uses Fortran on z/OS in their shop, 
and if so, why?

Is Pascal also still supported/used?  I don't see any mention of it in LE 
documentation.  Are there any other "legacy" MVS languages still in use (i.e., 
ones that haven't been updated in the last 30 years...)?  I've seen mention of 
APL2 on MVS, and maybe even Smalltalk?

Just wondering!

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN