Re: Can this be done?

[Tony Harminc]

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 at 18:39, Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
<032fff1be9b4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I would have said use EXCP until recently. In addition you would need to be 
> APF authorised in order to open VSAM datasets using EXCP.
> However, I understand however that there are some undocumented issues running 
> EXCP against data sets that are extended format. The DFP Advanced Services 
> manual states the following,
> "The EXCP and EXCPVR macro instructions allow you to control the data 
> organization based on
> device characteristics. The exceptions to this capability are partitioned 
> data sets extended (PDSEs),
> extended format data sets, spooled and dummy data sets, TSO terminals, and 
> z/OS UNIX files and
> file systems. They are not supported for user-written applications using 
> EXCP."

In the pre-MVS days, EXCP was the lowest level I/O API. (A very few
programs stole the I/O new PSW and issued their own TIO/SIO
instructions, but that's hardly an API).

In MVS ("OS/VS2 Release 2") a new interface macro STARTIO (not to be
confused with the SIO machine instruction) which called the new "I/O
Supervisor" (IOS) was slid in between EXCP and the hardware I/O
instructions, and a new "EXCP processor" became just one of several
"IOS driver"s. IIRC the others in the early MVS days were ASM, JES3,
and perhaps VSAM and VTAM. Looking at z/OS 2.5 I see there are 36 such
drivers, of which "DFSMS" is one.

The STARTIO interface was never really documented externally by IBM,
though a number of individuals and companies figured out how to use
it. I would imagine that an IOS driver today can still direct CCWs
(and probably now TCWs) at an arbitrary device, and e.g. do I/O
against things such as a PDSE, an extended format dataset, or a ZFS
VSAM dataset that contains UNIX files. But of course the format and
metadata for these things is mostly undocumented, so having access to
the raw data this way is pretty much good for a backup/restore or
remote disk access product and not much else.

I have no access to the [in]famous  FAMS documentation, and I'm
not sure how FAMS relates to "Media Manager", but what little is
visible from APARs and MACLIB and discussion on this list suggests
that it is not just another layer above CCWs, but rather a much higher
level interface that understands all sorts of stuff about the
internals and metadata of various objects on DASD (and probably other
devices). It speculate that it might be that "DFSMS" IOS driver. What
level of interface handles non-CCW/TCW devices such as OSA, I have no
idea.

All idle speculation for a Friday...

Tony H.

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Re: Can this be done?

[Matt Hogstrom]

As with many things on z/OS the simple can be complicated.  I would have 
thought a simple open of a dataset overriding with RECFM U would have at least 
allowed you to read a block at a time.  Nice idea.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564
PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
Facebook   LinkedIn 
  Twitter 

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom

> On Dec 15, 2023, at 12:42, Billy Ashton  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for letting me know how complicated this simple thought was - you can 
> all carry on here without me...


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Re: Can this be done?

[Billy Ashton]

Ok, it looks like my plan to read any type of file is not going to be as 
simple as I thought. I guess I will abandon that for now, as it was just 
going to be a learning exercise to see if we could have a single program 
open and read data from any disk filetype.  I will stop thinking now, 
and go back to work!


Thanks for letting me know how complicated this simple thought was - you 
can all carry on here without me...


Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton

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Re: Can this be done?

[Schmitt, Michael]

Disk Browse and Disk Print show the raw track data. There's no interpretation 
by FM. You just can't use it on a PDSE -- and that's not a bug, it is BAD 
(Broken As Designed).

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2023 10:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Can this be done?

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 16:07:04 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

>I wonder if this explains why IBM File Manager doesn't allow Disk Browse or 
>Disk Print on PDSEs -- maybe their code using EXCP and they didn't want to 
>change it to use media manager.
>
I believe the PDSE raw data format is not a supported user interface.  If it 
were
made so, it would need to be documented and stabilized, perhaps precluding 
future
enhancements.

--
gil

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Re: Can this be done?

[Mike Shaw]

We use EXCP for the I/O to our DB and when customers incorrectly allocate
it as an extended format DS we fail with a S213-B8:

B8An OPEN was attempted against an extended-format data set with a DCB that
specified EXCP. EXCP is not supported for extended-format data sets.

Mike Shaw
MVS/QuickRef Support Group
Chicago-Doft, Ltd.


On Fri, Dec 15, 2023, 11:07 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> I wonder if this explains why IBM File Manager doesn't allow Disk Browse
> or Disk Print on PDSEs -- maybe their code using EXCP and they didn't want
> to change it to use media manager.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 5:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Can this be done?
>
> I am assuming you are speaking of DASD based data sets rather than those
> on tape or any other medium.
>
> I would have said use EXCP until recently. In addition you would need to
> be APF authorised in order to open VSAM datasets using EXCP.
> However, I understand however that there are some undocumented issues
> running EXCP against data sets that are extended format. The DFP Advanced
> Services manual states the following,
> "The EXCP and EXCPVR macro instructions allow you to control the data
> organization based on
> device characteristics. The exceptions to this capability are partitioned
> data sets extended (PDSEs),
> extended format data sets, spooled and dummy data sets, TSO terminals, and
> z/OS UNIX files and
> file systems. They are not supported for user-written applications using
> EXCP."
> It seems likely to me that there are ways of circumventing these
> restrictions. There is a low level interface called the media manager which
> may do what you need. But the manual for this is not available to us mere
> mortals.
> As others have said, use ADRDSSU.
>
> Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
> https: //rsclweb.com
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Billy Ashton
> Sent: 14 December 2023 15:44
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Can this be done?
>
> Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with
> our freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.
>
> I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS,
> Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to
> open the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk pack
> and scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to the end.
>
> Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM?
> Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says "force
> as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at present,
> sorry!
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thank you and best regards,
> Billy Ashton
>
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Re: Can this be done?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 16:07:04 +, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

>I wonder if this explains why IBM File Manager doesn't allow Disk Browse or 
>Disk Print on PDSEs -- maybe their code using EXCP and they didn't want to 
>change it to use media manager.
> 
I believe the PDSE raw data format is not a supported user interface.  If it 
were
made so, it would need to be documented and stabilized, perhaps precluding 
future
enhancements.

-- 
gil

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Re: Can this be done?

[Schmitt, Michael]

I wonder if this explains why IBM File Manager doesn't allow Disk Browse or 
Disk Print on PDSEs -- maybe their code using EXCP and they didn't want to 
change it to use media manager.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 5:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Can this be done?

I am assuming you are speaking of DASD based data sets rather than those on 
tape or any other medium.

I would have said use EXCP until recently. In addition you would need to be APF 
authorised in order to open VSAM datasets using EXCP.
However, I understand however that there are some undocumented issues running 
EXCP against data sets that are extended format. The DFP Advanced Services 
manual states the following,
"The EXCP and EXCPVR macro instructions allow you to control the data 
organization based on
device characteristics. The exceptions to this capability are partitioned data 
sets extended (PDSEs),
extended format data sets, spooled and dummy data sets, TSO terminals, and z/OS 
UNIX files and
file systems. They are not supported for user-written applications using EXCP."
It seems likely to me that there are ways of circumventing these restrictions. 
There is a low level interface called the media manager which may do what you 
need. But the manual for this is not available to us mere mortals.
As others have said, use ADRDSSU.

Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
https: //rsclweb.com
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Billy Ashton
Sent: 14 December 2023 15:44
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Can this be done?

Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with our 
freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.

I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS, 
Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to open 
the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk pack and 
scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to the end.

Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM?
Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says "force as 
PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at present, sorry!

What do you think?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton

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Re: Can this be done?

[Adam Johanson]

> Is FAMS-level I/O publicly documented, or only for NDA+$?

NDA+$

I think a first-born child was also involved.

===
Adam Johanson
Broadcom Mainframe Software Division

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Re: Can this be done?

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

I am assuming you are speaking of DASD based data sets rather than those on 
tape or any other medium.

I would have said use EXCP until recently. In addition you would need to be APF 
authorised in order to open VSAM datasets using EXCP.
However, I understand however that there are some undocumented issues running 
EXCP against data sets that are extended format. The DFP Advanced Services 
manual states the following,
"The EXCP and EXCPVR macro instructions allow you to control the data 
organization based on
device characteristics. The exceptions to this capability are partitioned data 
sets extended (PDSEs),
extended format data sets, spooled and dummy data sets, TSO terminals, and z/OS 
UNIX files and
file systems. They are not supported for user-written applications using EXCP."
It seems likely to me that there are ways of circumventing these restrictions. 
There is a low level interface called the media manager which may do what you 
need. But the manual for this is not available to us mere mortals.
As others have said, use ADRDSSU.

Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw
https: //rsclweb.com
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Billy Ashton
Sent: 14 December 2023 15:44
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Can this be done?

Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with our 
freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.

I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS, 
Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to open 
the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk pack and 
scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to the end.

Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM? 
Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says "force as 
PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at present, sorry!

What do you think?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton

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Re: Can this be done?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 15:43:40 +, Billy Ashton wrote:
>..
>Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM? 
>Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says 
>"force as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at 
>present, sorry!
> 
JCL overriding to DSORG=PS does some of what yow want, but probably
not all.  I have used that to read the directory of a PDS as a PS file.
It's documented as working alike for PDSE, but I suspect it's simulated.

You omitted UNIX files.  On a non-z UNIIX system I have used "df" to find
the character special file underlying a mouht  and copied that to a *.iso which
I could mount as type=loopback.  Would that work with zFS?  for DSFS?

Where's the User's Guide for DSFS?

-- 
gil

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Re: Can this be done?

[Seymour J Metz]

You may need additional authorization, but EXCP is definitely the way to go. 
Parsing the raw data once you've read them might be sticky.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Billy Ashton 
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 10:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Can this be done?

Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with
our freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.

I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS,
Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to
open the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk
pack and scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to
the end.

Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM?
Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says
"force as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at
present, sorry!

What do you think?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton

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Re: Can this be done?

[Binyamin Dissen]

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 15:43:40 + Billy Ashton 
wrote:

:>Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with 
:>our freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.

:>I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS, 
:>Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to 
:>open the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk 
:>pack and scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to 
:>the end.

:>Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM? 
:>Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says 
:>"force as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at 
:>present, sorry!

:>What do you think?

Well, there is already such a program - ADRDSSU.

Just use EXCP - it don't care about the organization. Though I do not know if
OPEN will build a DEB for VSAM (or a VSAM component) with MACRF=E. 

Of course if you can get into supervisor state, you can build your own DEB and
access anything.

What is your business case? Playing around? In such case start with standard
files and PDS's. Use MACRF=E to dump the directory and members.

--
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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Re: Can this be done?

[Farley, Peter]

Is FAMS-level I/O publicly documented, or only for NDA+$?

Peter

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2023 11:35 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Can this be done?


Like Mike said, run your own CCW's with EXCP or similar.  But you could

also get a quick look with a program that already does this, such as:



//ADRDSSU EXEC PGM=ADRDSSU

//SYSPRINT  DD SYSOUT=*

//VOL   DD UNIT=3390,VOL=SER=VOLSER,DISP=OLD

//SYSIN DD *

  PRINT INDD(VOL) TRACKS(0,1,5,15)



On 12/14/2023 7:43 AM, Billy Ashton wrote:

> Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with

> our freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.

>

> I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS,

> Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to

> open the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk

> pack and scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to

> the end.

>

> Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM?

> Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says

> "force as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at

> present, sorry!

>

> What do you think?

>

> Thank you and best regards,

> Billy Ashton

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Re: Can this be done?

[Tom Brennan]

Like Mike said, run your own CCW's with EXCP or similar.  But you could 
also get a quick look with a program that already does this, such as:


//ADRDSSU EXEC PGM=ADRDSSU
//SYSPRINT  DD SYSOUT=*
//VOL   DD UNIT=3390,VOL=SER=VOLSER,DISP=OLD
//SYSIN DD *
 PRINT INDD(VOL) TRACKS(0,1,5,15)

On 12/14/2023 7:43 AM, Billy Ashton wrote:
Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with 
our freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.


I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS, 
Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to 
open the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk 
pack and scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to 
the end.


Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM? 
Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says 
"force as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at 
present, sorry!


What do you think?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton

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Re: Can this be done?

[Mike Schwab]

EXCP (execute channel program)
Cyl 0 trk 0 is volume label, points to VTOC which holds DSCB records.
DCSB has DSN, DSORG, RECFM, LRECL, BLKSIZE, tracks, etc.


On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 9:44 AM Billy Ashton  wrote:

> Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with
> our freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.
>
> I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS,
> Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to
> open the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk
> pack and scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to
> the end.
>
> Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM?
> Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says
> "force as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at
> present, sorry!
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thank you and best regards,
> Billy Ashton
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Can this be done?

[Sri h Kolusu]

Billy,

Just out of curiosity what is the main intent of the request ?  Get the raw 
data and then do what? Edit/ Print ?

Also, when you get a pds , do you process ALL the members ? or any specific 
member? How do you distinguish it?

Thanks,
Kolusu

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Re: Can this be done?

[Steve Thompson]

If you use SVC 99, you can query the dataset to find out what it 
is. And then you can do SVC99 to allocate.


It will keep you busy for a while understanding the text units 
and looking at control blocks


Steve Thompson


On 12/14/2023 10:43 AM, Billy Ashton wrote:
Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the 
year with our freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I 
have had.


I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file 
- PDS, Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM 
components. I want to open the file in "raw" format, as if I 
were going straight to the disk pack and scooping up the bytes 
from the beginning of the allocation to the end.


Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog 
RECFM? Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter 
that says "force as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go 
into more detail at present, sorry!


What do you think?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton

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IBM-MAIN


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Can this be done?

[Billy Ashton]

Hey everyone! I have a little down time here at the end of the year with 
our freeze, and I wanted to play with some ideas I have had.


I would like to write a program that can open any kind of file - PDS, 
Sequential, Panvalet, loadlib, and maybe even VSAM components. I want to 
open the file in "raw" format, as if I were going straight to the disk 
pack and scooping up the bytes from the beginning of the allocation to 
the end.


Is there any way to do this without caring about the catalog RECFM? 
Obviously, the easiest way is through some JCL parameter that says 
"force as PS" but I doubt that is likely. I can't go into more detail at 
present, sorry!


What do you think?

Thank you and best regards,
Billy Ashton

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