Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-28 Thread Timothy Sipples
Bill Bishop wrote:
>One issue that you may encounter with going to a new storage
>system on a z9 processor is the speed of the ficon cards and
>whether the new unit can z9 cards.  I am not sure the new
>Hitachi's can work with 4GB ficon.

While Radoslaw Skorupka clarified that it's possible to worry less about 
link speeds when there's a switch/director in the mix, I should point out 
that the IBM z9 machine might not be using 4 Gb/s FICON with its storage 
device. FICON4 was only the maximum configurable storage I/O attachment. 
Other maximums were possible. The z9 generation of IBM Z machines also 
supported 1 Gb/s and 2 Gb/s FICON and/or ESCON, even as maximums. For 
direct storage attachment it's important to clarify which link type(s) and 
speed(s) are actually operating.

I should also point out that the IBM z9 machines have passed IBM End of 
Service, and so have all z/OS releases (2.1 and prior) that the IBM z9 
machine supported. The storage device is by no means unique in this 
respect. IBM is still offering a Service Extension for z/OS 2.1, available 
for an additional monthly fee (minimum 3 months) through September 30, 
2021. Service extensions may also be available for other software.

I agree with the other posters suggesting serious, quick investigation of 
other options involving "rebasing" these critical applications on systems 
and middleware that are aligned with their importance. Many people are 
able to help.

- - - - - - - - - -
Timothy Sipples
I.T. Architect Executive
Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions
IBM Z & LinuxONE
- - - - - - - - - -
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

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Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Mike Schwab
I have used FDRPAS, TDMF which were all vendor compatible, and Dell
z/OS Migrator which must have their hardware as the target.  Most
movement was done with the system running at full speed.  The
different software packages did require different software products to
be down to SWAP their files.  Did require IPL to use new volumes.
25TB 3000 volumes in two days from an IBM F20 / 800 source with vendor
assistance for the z/OS migrator to Dell / EMC VMAX.  TDMF was in
house and did as 'time as available' task.  Consolidating onto bigger
volumes is what takes time and we would have exceeded UCB count limit
on LCU without it. But you are unlikely to be attempting that process.
So your purchase should include software to move your data while the
system is operating.

Probably a 90 day window once the hardware is operating, with one week
vendor assistance (onsite / webex).  For the mainframe, I would
suggest a z13 so you can IPL your old system with 31 bit IPL text that
switches to 64 bit operation.  Its old so you should be able to get a
cheap one but with a maintenance contract.  And watch the
compatibility on FICON cards / directors.

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 3:04 PM Grant Taylor
<023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> On 6/26/20 3:16 AM, R.S. wrote:
> > 3. 18 months is close to half of typical service contract for new dasd
> > array. Still we don't know how sure is 18 months - maybe it would be 36
> > months? Even 12 months means the dasd array would have some residual value.
>
> n00b questions:
>
> 1)  Is it possible to migrate from old DASD to new DASD?
>
> 2)  How disruptive would this be to the day-to-day operation of the
> existing mainframe?
>
> 3)  What sort of prerequisites exist for this?
>
> I have some experience with this in the Open Systems environment, but
> I'd like to know more about how such a storage migration would be done
> in the mainframe world.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
> --
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Ken Bloom
Hi. 

If you are interested in upgrading your dasd, you may want to consider the 
visara VI-8810.  It’s rack mounted, SSD drives, compatible with all IBM OS and 
processors.   Will certainly work with your Z9  

Contact me offline and you can tell me what you require in terms of channels 
and storage and we can go from there. 

Regards
Ken


Kenneth A. Bloom
Avenir Technologies Inc
/d/b/a Visara International
203-984-2235
bl...@visara.com
www.visara.com


> On Jun 26, 2020, at 11:33 AM, Grant Taylor 
> <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> On 6/26/20 9:18 AM, Carmen Vitullo wrote:
>> it's not that difficult and most vendor will provide a migration solution 
>> depending on your requirements .
> 
> Do the vendors support migrating between vendors?  Or is this vendor specific?
> 
>> some provide a tool to replicate the data, flip the switch (figuratively) 
>> and you are now running on the new DASD subsystem. (once DASD is cabled and 
>> new GEN is activated)
> 
> I was naively thinking that there might be a way to do this within z/OS.
> 
> AIX / Linux / Solaris / Windows offer an ability to add new disks to 
> (special) storage volumes, copy / migrate data between them, and remove the 
> old disks, all as part of contemporary OS versions.
> 
> Special meaning that the storage is provisioned with this in mind in the 
> beginning.  Each OS is slightly different in this.
> 
> Note how this is done at the OS level and does not require external vendor 
> support.
> 
> Does z/OS have anything similar?  Or is storage fundamentally different?
> 
>> I've been a part of a couple different migrations at different shops, all 
>> were non disruptive.
> 
> :-)
> 
>> as with any new subsystem, you need to make sure you have the toleration 
>> maint for the subsystem you are installing, and the functions/features you 
>> are going to use, P2PRCfor example
> 
> Prerequisites always exist.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
> 
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Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Jesse 1 Robinson
We do this fairly frequently because we typically replace DASD at end of 
warranty so that cost is capital expense rather than O It's never trivial 
but has gotten easier over the decades. There two main areas of complexity 
depending on your configuration. 

1. If you share DASD subsystems among LPARs/sysplexes, you have tricky 
maneuvers to execute. 

2. For active volumes, you have to coordinate moves so as not to lose updates 
in the process. 

Our most important tool for this purpose is TDMF. We were early adopters ages 
ago; now owned by IBM. I still think of it as smoke and mirrors magic. It 
dynamically moves a volume from one location to another with no outage. Quite 
remarkable. 

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robin...@sce.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Carmen Vitullo
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 8:46 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of 
support

CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL

Carmen Vitullo

- Original Message -

From: "Grant Taylor" <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 10:33:02 AM
Subject: Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

On 6/26/20 9:18 AM, Carmen Vitullo wrote:
> it's not that difficult and most vendor will provide a migration 
> solution depending on your requirements .

Do the vendors support migrating between vendors? Or is this vendor specific?
yes, one vendor I used migrated from DASD from company A to DASD from company B.


we used a third party vendor that is a partner with IBM and we used FDR for one 
migration to migrate the DATA but as others have said, there are a number of 
tools that run on Z that can migrate the data for you seamlessly one vendor 
provided a solution when the box was replicated without the need to run 
anything on Z,

> some provide a tool to replicate the data, flip the switch
> (figuratively) and you are now running on the new DASD subsystem.
> (once DASD is cabled and new GEN is activated)

I was naively thinking that there might be a way to do this within z/OS.


there is, but most resellers provide services and tools to aid in the migration 
or do the migration for you.
very simple to use DFSMS/DSS ADRDSSU to copy and flip the volser if you choose 
to do this yourself

AIX / Linux / Solaris / Windows offer an ability to add new disks to
(special) storage volumes, copy / migrate data between them, and remove the old 
disks, all as part of contemporary OS versions.

Special meaning that the storage is provisioned with this in mind in the 
beginning. Each OS is slightly different in this.

Note how this is done at the OS level and does not require external vendor 
support.

pretty much the same for Z..
Does z/OS have anything similar? Or is storage fundamentally different?


depending on your requirements the storage can be partitioned the way you like, 
most sites I've worked all DASD was used in a production environment containing 
volumes within storage pools, every site is different.
we currently have a # of UCB's available to use and a limit of storage, if I 
need more storage, I add more volumes to a storage pool, simply put.

> I've been a part of a couple different migrations at different shops, 
> all were non disruptive.

:-)

> as with any new subsystem, you need to make sure you have the 
> toleration maint for the subsystem you are installing, and the 
> functions/features you are going to use, P2PRCfor example

Prerequisites always exist.



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Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Carmen Vitullo
Carmen Vitullo 

- Original Message -

From: "Grant Taylor" <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 10:33:02 AM 
Subject: Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support 

On 6/26/20 9:18 AM, Carmen Vitullo wrote: 
> it's not that difficult and most vendor will provide a migration 
> solution depending on your requirements . 

Do the vendors support migrating between vendors? Or is this vendor 
specific? 
yes, one vendor I used migrated from DASD from company A to DASD from company 
B. 


we used a third party vendor that is a partner with IBM and we used FDR for one 
migration to migrate the DATA but as others have said, there are a number of 
tools that run on Z that can migrate the data for you seamlessly 
one vendor provided a solution when the box was replicated without the need to 
run anything on Z, 

> some provide a tool to replicate the data, flip the switch 
> (figuratively) and you are now running on the new DASD subsystem. 
> (once DASD is cabled and new GEN is activated) 

I was naively thinking that there might be a way to do this within z/OS. 


there is, but most resellers provide services and tools to aid in the migration 
or do the migration for you. 
very simple to use DFSMS/DSS ADRDSSU to copy and flip the volser if you choose 
to do this yourself 

AIX / Linux / Solaris / Windows offer an ability to add new disks to 
(special) storage volumes, copy / migrate data between them, and remove 
the old disks, all as part of contemporary OS versions. 

Special meaning that the storage is provisioned with this in mind in the 
beginning. Each OS is slightly different in this. 

Note how this is done at the OS level and does not require external 
vendor support. 

pretty much the same for Z.. 
Does z/OS have anything similar? Or is storage fundamentally different? 


depending on your requirements the storage can be partitioned the way you like, 
most sites I've worked 
all DASD was used in a production environment containing volumes within storage 
pools, every site is different. 
we currently have a # of UCB's available to use and a limit of storage, if I 
need more storage, I add more volumes to a storage pool, simply put. 

> I've been a part of a couple different migrations at different shops, 
> all were non disruptive. 

:-) 

> as with any new subsystem, you need to make sure you have the 
> toleration maint for the subsystem you are installing, and the 
> functions/features you are going to use, P2PRCfor example 

Prerequisites always exist. 



-- 
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unix || die 

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Re: [EXTERNAL] DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread R.S.

Simply no.
4Gbps can work with 4, 8 and 16Gbps interface on the other end. I think 
even current newest Hitachi DASD boxes may have 16Gbps interfaces, not 
32Gbps as the only choice.


Last, but not least: DIRECTOR. FICON switch allows to connect any to any 
speed. Yes, including 1Gbps to 32Gbps.
More obviously one can connect 4Gbps FICON port to a switch with any 
(2,4,8,16) SFP and this port can connect to a dasd box connected in 
similar way, lets say 32Gbps device port connected to 16Gbps SFP. The 
switch can "transmit" FICON traffic from any to any port, despite of SFP 
speed.


The "window of compatibility" apply to physical fiber optic link and 
transceivers on both ends (SFPs). The window is "n-2", which means 1Gbps 
will talk to 1, 2, 4Gbps. 2Gbps will talk to 2, 4, 8 Gbps. 4Gbps will 
talk to 4, 8, 16 Gbps.


Note, there are other things to consider, but it regards very old CUs 
and microcode - older than z9. AFAIK the change was in z196 machine.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland







W dniu 26.06.2020 o 17:09, Bill Bishop (TMNA) pisze:

One issue that you may encounter with going to a new storage system on a z9 
processor is the speed of the ficon cards and whether the new unit can z9 
cards.  I am not sure the new Hitachi's can work with 4GB ficon.

I would make sure that if you replace it, with whichever vendor, that the new 
unit can work with those old z9 cards.

Thanks

Bill Bishop
Consultant, Mainframe Engineer
Mainframe and Scheduling | Infrastructure Technology Services
Toyota Motor North America
  bill.bis...@toyota.com
Office:  (469) 292-5149
Cell:  (502) 316-4386

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Grant Taylor
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 10:05 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

On 6/26/20 3:16 AM, R.S. wrote:

3. 18 months is close to half of typical service contract for new dasd
array. Still we don't know how sure is 18 months - maybe it would be
36 months? Even 12 months means the dasd array would have some residual value.

n00b questions:

1)  Is it possible to migrate from old DASD to new DASD?

2)  How disruptive would this be to the day-to-day operation of the existing 
mainframe?

3)  What sort of prerequisites exist for this?

I have some experience with this in the Open Systems environment, but I'd like 
to know more about how such a storage migration would be done in the mainframe 
world.





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Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Grant Taylor

On 6/26/20 9:18 AM, Carmen Vitullo wrote:
it's not that difficult and most vendor will provide a migration 
solution depending on your requirements .


Do the vendors support migrating between vendors?  Or is this vendor 
specific?


some provide a tool to replicate the data, flip the switch 
(figuratively) and you are now running on the new DASD subsystem. 
(once DASD is cabled and new GEN is activated)


I was naively thinking that there might be a way to do this within z/OS.

AIX / Linux / Solaris / Windows offer an ability to add new disks to 
(special) storage volumes, copy / migrate data between them, and remove 
the old disks, all as part of contemporary OS versions.


Special meaning that the storage is provisioned with this in mind in the 
beginning.  Each OS is slightly different in this.


Note how this is done at the OS level and does not require external 
vendor support.


Does z/OS have anything similar?  Or is storage fundamentally different?

I've been a part of a couple different migrations at different shops, 
all were non disruptive.


:-)

as with any new subsystem, you need to make sure you have the 
toleration maint for the subsystem you are installing, and the 
functions/features you are going to use, P2PRCfor example


Prerequisites always exist.



--
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unix || die

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Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread R.S.

W dniu 26.06.2020 o 17:04, Grant Taylor pisze:

On 6/26/20 3:16 AM, R.S. wrote:
3. 18 months is close to half of typical service contract for new 
dasd array. Still we don't know how sure is 18 months - maybe it 
would be 36 months? Even 12 months means the dasd array would have 
some residual value.


n00b questions:

1)  Is it possible to migrate from old DASD to new DASD?


Obviously YES. And it is quite simple, IMHO simpler than in distributed 
systems world.

I did it many times.


2) How disruptive would this be to the day-to-day operation of the 
existing mainframe?


Do you mean migration? For parallel sysplex it can be non-disruptive. 
However even for the most basic configuration (monoplex, no tools like 
TDMF) it can be single short night outage.




3) What sort of prerequisites exist for this?


Almost nothing except skilled personnel, maybe one or two persons.
In order to connect new DASD you need some FICON ports, but even that is 
not necessary, depending on details.




I have some experience with this in the Open Systems environment, but 
I'd like to know more about how such a storage migration would be done 
in the mainframe world.


I have some comparison to Windows world and IMHO storage migration inn 
mainframe is simple and straightforward.





--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





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tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
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Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Carmen Vitullo
it's not that difficult and most vendor will provide a migration solution 
depending on your requirements . 


some provide a tool to replicate the data, flip the switch (figuratively) and 
you are now running on the new DASD subsystem. 
(once DASD is cabled and new GEN is activated) 
I've been a part of a couple different migrations at different shops, all were 
non disruptive. 
as with any new subsystem, you need to make sure you have the toleration maint 
for the subsystem you are installing, and the functions/features you are going 
to use, P2PRCfor example 







Carmen Vitullo 

- Original Message -

From: "Grant Taylor" <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 10:04:36 AM 
Subject: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support 

On 6/26/20 3:16 AM, R.S. wrote: 
> 3. 18 months is close to half of typical service contract for new dasd 
> array. Still we don't know how sure is 18 months - maybe it would be 36 
> months? Even 12 months means the dasd array would have some residual value. 

n00b questions: 

1) Is it possible to migrate from old DASD to new DASD? 

2) How disruptive would this be to the day-to-day operation of the 
existing mainframe? 

3) What sort of prerequisites exist for this? 

I have some experience with this in the Open Systems environment, but 
I'd like to know more about how such a storage migration would be done 
in the mainframe world. 



-- 
Grant. . . . 
unix || die 

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Re: DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Nightwatch RenBand
There are several OEM products such as FDR from Innovation, and CA, which
can speedily migrate between different disk drive architectures.  I think
IBM utilities can do it as well, but my experience has been with the
OEM's.  In general, migration is easily solved.

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 8:04 AM Grant Taylor <
023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On 6/26/20 3:16 AM, R.S. wrote:
> > 3. 18 months is close to half of typical service contract for new dasd
> > array. Still we don't know how sure is 18 months - maybe it would be 36
> > months? Even 12 months means the dasd array would have some residual
> value.
>
> n00b questions:
>
> 1)  Is it possible to migrate from old DASD to new DASD?
>
> 2)  How disruptive would this be to the day-to-day operation of the
> existing mainframe?
>
> 3)  What sort of prerequisites exist for this?
>
> I have some experience with this in the Open Systems environment, but
> I'd like to know more about how such a storage migration would be done
> in the mainframe world.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: [EXTERNAL] DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Bill Bishop (TMNA)
One issue that you may encounter with going to a new storage system on a z9 
processor is the speed of the ficon cards and whether the new unit can z9 
cards.  I am not sure the new Hitachi's can work with 4GB ficon.

I would make sure that if you replace it, with whichever vendor, that the new 
unit can work with those old z9 cards.

Thanks

Bill Bishop
Consultant, Mainframe Engineer
Mainframe and Scheduling | Infrastructure Technology Services 
Toyota Motor North America
 bill.bis...@toyota.com
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-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Grant Taylor
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 10:05 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

On 6/26/20 3:16 AM, R.S. wrote:
> 3. 18 months is close to half of typical service contract for new dasd 
> array. Still we don't know how sure is 18 months - maybe it would be 
> 36 months? Even 12 months means the dasd array would have some residual value.

n00b questions:

1)  Is it possible to migrate from old DASD to new DASD?

2)  How disruptive would this be to the day-to-day operation of the existing 
mainframe?

3)  What sort of prerequisites exist for this?

I have some experience with this in the Open Systems environment, but I'd like 
to know more about how such a storage migration would be done in the mainframe 
world.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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DASD migration -- Re: Hitachi RAID box going out of support

2020-06-26 Thread Grant Taylor

On 6/26/20 3:16 AM, R.S. wrote:
3. 18 months is close to half of typical service contract for new dasd 
array. Still we don't know how sure is 18 months - maybe it would be 36 
months? Even 12 months means the dasd array would have some residual value.


n00b questions:

1)  Is it possible to migrate from old DASD to new DASD?

2)  How disruptive would this be to the day-to-day operation of the 
existing mainframe?


3)  What sort of prerequisites exist for this?

I have some experience with this in the Open Systems environment, but 
I'd like to know more about how such a storage migration would be done 
in the mainframe world.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN