Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 09:21:45 -0500, Walt Farrell wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:21:55 -0500, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>
>>I use the WWW interface to post to IBM-MAIN.  At times it tells me I have
>>lingering drafts.  Each shows a trashcan  icon.  Clicking it usually fails
>>or causes a window hang.  Is there a trick?
>
>I have no problems clicking the trashcon icon in the Drafts list, and it does 
>not matter what order I delete them in.
>
I jut stumbled onto:
If I click the trashcan icon in the Drafts list immediately after "Send" with 
the
text area is empty, I get the hangup.  If I click the Back control once, the 
trashcan
icon works nicely afterward.  Careless UI design/testing.

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Seymour J Metz]

No, that conflates things that happe ned at very different times.

First, OS/360 had DSN= for temporary datasets.

S/360 added symbolic parameters on the PROC and EXEC statements. As part of 
that,  is replaced with the value of the referenced parameter if it 
exists, and otherwise left as is. A double ampersand is replaced with a single 
ampersand. As long as you don't have foo=bar, DSN= works like it always 
did, but you can code it DSN=& just in case.

Then, decades later, // SET came along, with similar rules..


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 3:32 PM Paul Gilmartin
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> And I've seen no good explanation for "&"
>
S/360 started with 
Later (S/360-370), // SET VAR=value was added.
Created & is always 
 picks up the SET value and if none is specified it uses the name
of the var.

--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 15:59:02 -0500, Mike Schwab wrote:

>On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 3:32 PM Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>
>> And I've seen no good explanation for "&TEMPDSN"
>>
As s test, I posted that, not via WWW but by Mail, which I rarely do.
The paired ampersands were properly decoded.

>S/360 started with 
>Later (S/360-370), // SET VAR=value was added.
>Created &tempdsn is always 
> picks up the SET value and if none is specified it uses the name
>of the var.
>
But it fails to clarify what happens if:
o a value *is* specified
o the specified value begins with one ampersand
o the specified value begins with two ampersands

The JCL Ref. misleads readers to believe that the paired ampersands
are special in the case of temporary DSNs.  I believe otherwise.
The pleonastic discussion of paired ampersands vis-a-vis temporary
DSNs is anachronistic and phobic.

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Bill Johnson]

Most threads go too long. Because the 20-30 are doing nothing but repeating 
each other. I suspect it’s because they are “networking”.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, August 30, 2023, 4:32 PM, Paul Gilmartin 
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 13:18:22 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote:
> 
> An interesting topic, even if not directly on-topic (the other "OT").
> 
Thanks for the research.  List behavior should be a valid metatopic.

One recent ply begins with "Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re:".

If I were emperor of the RFCs, I'd decree that
o All agent-added prefixes be bracketed and ignored for threading.
 (with an escape convention, of course.)

Kirk had a valid complaint.  The "XYZZY" thread went too long, and it
was far from worst this month.  (I confess I responded with one
audio link.)

And I've seen no good explanation for "&"

Try: 
""

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Mike Schwab]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 3:32 PM Paul Gilmartin
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> And I've seen no good explanation for "&"
>
S/360 started with 
Later (S/360-370), // SET VAR=value was added.
Created & is always 
 picks up the SET value and if none is specified it uses the name
of the var.

-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 13:18:22 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote:
> 
> An interesting topic, even if not directly on-topic (the other "OT").
> 
Thanks for the research.  List behavior should be a valid metatopic.

One recent ply begins with "Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re:".

If I were emperor of the RFCs, I'd decree that
o All agent-added prefixes be bracketed and ignored for threading.
(with an escape convention, of course.)

Kirk had a valid complaint.  The "XYZZY" thread went too long, and it
was far from worst this month.  (I confess I responded with one
audio link.)

And I've seen no good explanation for "&"

Try: 
""

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 13:18:22 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote:
> 
> An interesting topic, even if not directly on-topic (the other "OT").
> 
Thanks for the research.  List behavior should be a valid metatopic.

One recent ply begins with "Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re:".

If I were emperor of the RFCs, I'd decree that
o All agent-added prefixes be bracketed and ignored for threading.
 (with an escape convention, of course.)

Kirk had a valid complaint.  The "XYZZY" thread went too long, and it
was far from worst this month.  (I confess I responded with one
audio link.)

And I've seen no good explanation for "&"

Try: 
""

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Phil Smith III]

Doh, I confused myself there-it's not LISTSERV's problem, it's Gmail's and/or 
whatever this web interface is. Can you point me at that, Gil?


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Phil Smith III]

Gil wrote:
>FSVO "matdh"?
>Is noise such as "Re:", "AW:", "EXTERNAL", ... to be ignored a noise?
>Security mavens here have supported "EXtERNAL", but it's bad if it breaks 
>threading.

Yes, in researching it I saw that Re: et al. will be ignored. "EXTERNAL" not so 
much. I just verified this, sent myself four notes:

1.  Subject: EXTERNAL: Hamsters
2.  Subject: Re: Hamsters
3.  Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Hamsters
4.  Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: Hamsters


#3 and #4 were threaded together; #1 and #2 were distinct, from each other and 
from #3 and #4. This suggests that there is a list of known, plausible 
prefixes, like "Re:", "RE:", "AW:". Which makes sense, though I'm 100% sure 
I've seen MUAs which, if you replied to #1 above, you'd get
Subject: Re: Hamsters
.losing the EXTERNAL: completely.

>It fails to supply "In-Reply-To".
>Do you think Darren could submit a Service Request?

Doesn't look like LSoft supports it: not found in latest LISTSERV Owner's 
Manual, Site Manager's Manual, Advanced Topics Manual, or Customization Manual. 
There are discussions elsewhere that mention using In-Reply-To detection to 
enable moderation of most replies, but that's it. I've sent L-SOFT a query 
about this, but I'm not holding my breath.

An interesting topic, even if not directly on-topic (the other "OT").


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 14:05:59 -0400, Phil Smith III  wrote:

>...
>https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides/threads
>...
>1. The requested threadId must be specified on the Message or 
>Draft.Message you supply with your request.
>2. The References and In-Reply-To headers must be set in compliance with 
>the RFC 2822   standard.
>3. The Subject headers must match.
>
> 
FSVO "matdh"?
Is noise such as "Re:", "AW:", "EXTERNAL", ... to be ignored a noise?
Security mavens here have supported "EXtERNAL", but it's bad if it breaks 
threading.

>So it seems the www interface (which I was unaware still existed; link?) must 
>not be meeting one or both of the first two requirements.
>
It fails to supply "In-Reply-To".

Do you think Darren could submit a Service Request?
List-Owner:   ?

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Threading (was: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?)

[Phil Smith III]

Kirk Wolf asked Gil:
>Not your question, but is the WWW interface why all of your posts
>break into a new thread? ( at least in a few mailers that I have
>used).
and Gil mentioned header:
> References: <7241413257405975.wa.paulgboulderaol@listserv.ua.edu 
>  >

Gmail threading is discussed here:
https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides/threads
which says, in part:

In order to be part of a thread, a message or draft must meet the following 
criteria:

1.  The requested threadId must be specified on the Message or 
Draft.Message you supply with your request.
2.  The References and In-Reply-To headers must be set in compliance with 
the RFC 2822   standard.
3.  The Subject headers must match.


If you get the list digested, for example, clipping out a note and replying to 
it creates a new thread, at least in Gmail. This is how I get the list, so I 
cause that a lot, I'm afraid.

Whether it's a Gmail bug/feechur or not is arguable; if I were Gmail, I'd make 
it configurable to JUST base it on Subject, but we know that way 
(configurability) lies madness. OTOH it's pretty dumb to look at Gmail and see 
a half-dozen "threads" with the same subject!

So it seems the www interface (which I was unaware still existed; link?) must 
not be meeting one or both of the first two requirements.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Seymour J Metz]

While  may be either a temporary dsn or a symbol reference, & resolves 
to  and can only be a temporary dsn. Absent a symbol definition for foo, 
the two forms are equivalenr.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Grant Taylor [023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 10:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

On 8/28/23 6:35 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> I'll copy/paste a couple lines from:
> <https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=parameters-character-sets>
> Let's see how what appears on the forum compares with
> the original:

Thank you for the clarification Paul.

> &To identify a temporary data set name, for example,
> &TEMPDS, and, to identify an in-stream or sysout data set name,
> for example, &PAYOUT

I would expect that to be "TEMPDS".

Sadly, the way that IBM constructs their sight, using content
dynamically loaded by JavaScript, makes it difficult to find the
underlying HTML.



--
Grant. . . .

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2023 09:26:34 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> ...
>> 
>
>> &   To identify a temporary data set name, for example,
>> &TEMPDS, and, to identify an in-stream or sysout data set name,
>> for example, &PAYOUT
>
>I would expect that to be "TEMPDS".
>
>Sadly, the way that IBM constructs their sight, using content
>dynamically loaded by JavaScript, makes it difficult to find the
>underlying HTML.
>
I used curl to fetch the page to which I'm replying and saw what
you expect.  The decoding command seems to be:
content = content.replace(//g,"&")

Whether IBM or L-Soft, the rendering bug has existed too long.
Could it be a bug in the Javascript engine itself?

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Grant Taylor]

On 8/28/23 6:35 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

I'll copy/paste a couple lines from:

Let's see how what appears on the forum compares with
the original:


Thank you for the clarification Paul.

&	To identify a temporary data set name, for example, 
&TEMPDS, and, to identify an in-stream or sysout data set name, 
for example, &PAYOUT


I would expect that to be "TEMPDS".

Sadly, the way that IBM constructs their sight, using content 
dynamically loaded by JavaScript, makes it difficult to find the 
underlying HTML.




--
Grant. . . .

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Walt Farrell]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:21:55 -0500, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:

>I use the WWW interface to post to IBM-MAIN.  At times it tells me I have
>lingering drafts.  Each shows a trashcan  icon.  Clicking it usually fails
>or causes a window hang.  Is there a trick?
>
>I may have just discovered  that it works better to delete in (reverse)
>chronological order.  Is that what I should do?

I have no problems clicking the trashcon icon in the Drafts list, and it does 
not matter what order I delete them in.

Firefox on Windows, fwiw.

-- 
Walt

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 18:09:57 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote:
>...
>What you have written in quotes on the second line seems broken to me.
>I'm seeing ampersand, ampersand, a, m, p, semicolon, S, Y, M, B, O, L,
>period.
>
>I have no idea what you were trying to write.
>
I'll copy/paste a couple lines from:

Let's see how what appears on the forum compares with
the original:

&  To identify a temporary data set name, for example, &TEMPDS, and, 
to identify an in-stream or sysout data set name, for example, &PAYOUT

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Grant Taylor]

On 8/28/23 4:21 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

Yes.  I see your message has headers:
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-701-g9b2f44d3ee-fm-20230823.001-g9b2f44d3
Mime-Version: 1.0
References:<7241413257405975.wa.paulgboulderaol@listserv.ua.edu>
 ...
In-Reply-To:<7241413257405975.wa.paulgboulderaol@listserv.ua.edu>

Mine lacks the last two.  Are those threading?


Yes.


LISTSERV is broken.  The vendor should be made aware.


Are you sure that it's the LISTSERV software and not a 
(mis)configuration thereof?



(Of that, and of the "" misbehavior, among others.)

(This should show two ampersands:  "&SYMBOL.")


I don't have context of that.

But what you have in quotes of the first of the two lines should only 
show up as one ampersand if I'm remembering HTML correctly.


What you have written in quotes on the second line seems broken to me. 
I'm seeing ampersand, ampersand, a, m, p, semicolon, S, Y, M, B, O, L, 
period.


I have no idea what you were trying to write.



Grant. . . .

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:28:25 -0500, Kirk Wolf wrote:

>Gil,
>Not your question, but is the WWW interface why all of your posts break into a 
>new thread?  ( at least in a few mailers that I have used).
>
Yes.  I see your message has headers:
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-701-g9b2f44d3ee-fm-20230823.001-g9b2f44d3
Mime-Version: 1.0
References: <7241413257405975.wa.paulgboulderaol@listserv.ua.edu>
...
In-Reply-To:  <7241413257405975.wa.paulgboulderaol@listserv.ua.edu>

Mine lacks the last two.  Are those threading?

LISTSERV is broken.  The vendor should be made aware.  (Of that,
and of the "" misbehavior, among others.)

(This should show two ampersands:  "&SYMBOL.")

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 15:28:25 -0500, Kirk Wolf  wrote:

>Gil,
>Not your question, but is the WWW interface why all of your posts break into a 
>new thread?  ( at least in a few mailers that I have used).

Probably.  I just click "Open New Window" on the crayon icon, then click
the quote icon.

Where's Darren when we need him?  Too many things don't work, and
L-Soft requires account credentials.

>http:// coztoolkit.com
>
>On Mon, Aug 28, 2023, at 3:21 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>> I use the WWW interface to post to IBM-MAIN.  At times it tells me I have
>> lingering drafts.  Each shows a trashcan  icon.  Clicking it usually fails
>> or causes a window hang.  Is there a trick?

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Kirk Wolf]

Gil, 
Not your question, but is the WWW interface why all of your posts break into a 
new thread?  ( at least in a few mailers that I have used).

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http:// coztoolkit.com

On Mon, Aug 28, 2023, at 3:21 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> I use the WWW interface to post to IBM-MAIN.  At times it tells me I have
> lingering drafts.  Each shows a trashcan  icon.  Clicking it usually fails
> or causes a window hang.  Is there a trick?
> 
> I may have just discovered  that it works better to delete in (reverse)
> chronological order.  Is that what I should do?
> 
> -- 
> gil
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

LISTSERV Trivia: Deleting drafts?

[Paul Gilmartin]

I use the WWW interface to post to IBM-MAIN.  At times it tells me I have
lingering drafts.  Each shows a trashcan  icon.  Clicking it usually fails
or causes a window hang.  Is there a trick?

I may have just discovered  that it works better to delete in (reverse)
chronological order.  Is that what I should do?

-- 
gil

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN