Re: Latest COBOL standard is 2014 was Re: Cobol
W dniu 27.04.2020 o 17:48, Bernd Oppolzer pisze: Am 27.04.2020 um 15:39 schrieb Clark Morris: I wanted USAGE BIT 50 years ago because I was dealing with bit switches on customer, product and open account files. In 1992, my customer at that time (local transport) wanted to help the local transport company in Lodz (Poland), which is our partner town, to replace their ODRA machine (Polish ICL clone) by an IBM mainframe (4381 model 12, IIRC) running VM/CMS, VSE, CICS, SQL/DS etc. The programs there were COBOL programs. Our manager told the people there, that there will be no problem, because COBOL is COBOL, after all. When we looked at the COBOL programs at the ODRA machine, we soon realized two severe problems that gave us some headaches: - a printer with line width 160 characters (we had 132 maximum); all ODRA programs of course used this line width for their reports - and variable definitions like this: 01 BITS PIC 1(8). that is: eight bits. So the migration to IBM was not as cheap as expected :-) what made our support more painful was the use of polish variable names throughout the programs ... nobody of us knew Polish, only one of them knew German, and one knew English :-( but it was a very nice experience, great fun, and we stayed friends until today Benrd, As you know I live in Lodz (proper name: Łódź) and know a little bit this case. AFAIK they used 4381 mostly for Odra emulation program which ran under VM. In 1999 they replaced 4381 with "integrat" (grat is junk in Polish), that means P/390 machine. I saw it, touched it, even heard the price, but I don't know the parameters. I think all of the staff retired or even passed away (my colleague). In my opinion both migrations were simply wrong. The needs of MPK could be satisfied with regular PC, not even strong one. Of course that would require change of the application, but it would be cheaper than the hardware spendings. (of course I know they got 4381 for free as well as the tramway). BTW: Nowadays MPK still buy second hand tramways from Germany. :-) The have strong mechanical workshop so they do renovations even for other cities. The price of used tramway is approx. 1/30 of new one (which often also need significant maintenance). For those who don't know ODRA: There were many incompatible machines with that name, however the most popular and latest Odra was licensed clone of ICL 1900 with GEORGE 3 operating system. AFAIK the last Odra was switched off in 2006. The manufacturer of Odra was ELWRO in Wrocław - beautiful city by the Odra river. Now there is IBM office there - 2000-3000 IT specialists supporting various systems including mainframes. Regards -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Latest COBOL standard is 2014 was Re: Cobol
And believe it or not, there is an ISO group working on a 202X standard for COBOL. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Clark Morris Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 7:39 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Latest COBOL standard is 2014 was Re: Cobol [Default] On 27 Apr 2020 00:29:21 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main dcrayf...@gmail.com (David Crayford) wrote: >Define modern? A language is only as modern as its last standard (or >version). For example, Python is considered a modern language although >it's 30 years old. It's constantly >being updated. Python 3.6 supports static type checking! JavaScript is >the same. C++20 is being ratified, C2x is being worked on. Java 13 is >going to GA on z/OS this year! > >It's my understanding that COBOL-85 is the current standard in use on >z/OS? That's probably indicative of COBOL programmers not requiring new >language features as they don't >need them to maintain the code bases that they work on. COBOL >modernization on z/OS has mostly been back-end optimizer work which is >probably a lot more valuable to z/OS >IT managers then new language features that won't be used. If companies >want to modernize a COBOL application they integrate with Java like CICS >and IMS. The latest COBOL standard is 2014 with 2002 and 1989 extensions being predecessors. The 2014 standard supports IEEE binary floating point plus IEEE decimal floating point with all of the rounding options including round to nearest even. There also are true binary usages including binary character and USAGE BIT along with boolean operations. There is everything needed to fully work with SMf 30 records without weird coding. It would allow a relatively straight forward conversion of Assembler DSECTS to COBOL. Because it has language to support all of the IEEE fixed and floating point binary usages, IEEE and hex floating point could co-exist in the same program. I wanted USAGE BIT 50 years ago because I was dealing with bit switches on customer, product and open account files. Clark Morris > >REXX hasn't changed in almost 30 years. There's been a few updates to >TSO REXX such as EXECIO VBS support but that's about all. > >On 2020-04-25 7:03 AM, Wayne Bickerdike wrote: >> One of our guys was talking about modern languages such as C. I said what? >> >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 7:01 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: >> >>> Well what do you know? The emperor has no clothes. We shot an innocent >>> language. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf >>> of Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 3:58 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Cobol >>> >>> On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:26:49 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> >>>> There are blurbs for dozens of articles; which one is relevant? I tried >>> searxhing for COBOL, but got 0 hits. >>> I suspect that was OP's desperate and futile attempt to circumvent >>> secureweb, >>> as you often do. But, I hope (posting from web interface): >>> >>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/18wMr2wQiot_mC2NJkJL7buWujrBfP9suLfEWZL4dG8gjB_Zjaj31ZgILnrnn--CfD_RooCYfsFjxvxArhRiN2V2tCmTfs8NayUQCV2ProhQ0KfRlDMDZdg2alKOSjuWwTXeK_Lci9elkht49bjva6Fj7o1W1SIr2REv9PF2NO_PK0BStoe0irBBLJRM9a_tKg3QNHj3DghbIM6_s_J2QBa8K1XWudsYnadGx1bdpDNNTapriOq_jLHjoC742AxmqQVAJ4Szwl0aLrINIHWnzPzP_p0N_kYOi4keUEoOLuWRccU_ZVES-3NC05VlKLovPbiDfx9BUbsi3Kn4nGo1sHGipsJJfPFN4ClnEGuuMjWs6LU9f2293Fm0jTt3GhayZHNNDR8prcppx857Qz_vQpR6HOUIxm-p1DAvFYE8aFU_B3Da9y60snIIWQxr9qfkI67XWmwAvbGdgFfA9cP_uBHV85oupnnYfOSco5uQPIVE/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fstory%2Fcant-file-unemployment-dont-blame-cobol%2F >>> >>> >>> From: scott Ford >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 2:08 PM >>> >>> See this url ... >>> >>> >>> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1DYCAeckpzqV94PQWw8dHuuJalhW0eVroAe-0-S4pJl_FnqGfZxS4EcWK7cCAl1oA09gJJKNMcHC1Be4KK3D-KcMIEVRVBeNOw5sf7565Z6e9CTYIm43a-oit3GGWnum7LgBTpYCxV6CAhgR9TuXipYHaUjUUPtd7BICMs1zfFGQQ8NhAeXHdXvHPrGdxzaQmTRfNi8vGWGKk4fg_G75au8H3Ja9AbLwRb2m8-upI9jYdmy1ZYdzYlRF2kzlwN155wAFEug02LCkZ5Bpk3IvSuxwzwd1UUyk_5NUmIqwMFmcDxZ8SpSnwFspncJTV1bLmByZAIVczBfj-JctXDA5Ta99YBqxx1tBpdl0qN5MWPGsz1CGAQ_Is1sLoRxy9Dl_fCLgMhLDvO5L8-EsVff2IiswF1xKvwUDiAEPcV0mOxz5c915mExQuVbCTDL0KTJQEtCF5dYTiss8HJIK_dzSG8g/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com. >>>Can't File for Unemployment - Don?t Blame Cobol >>> >>> -- gil >>> >&
Re: Latest COBOL standard is 2014 was Re: Cobol
Am 27.04.2020 um 15:39 schrieb Clark Morris: I wanted USAGE BIT 50 years ago because I was dealing with bit switches on customer, product and open account files. In 1992, my customer at that time (local transport) wanted to help the local transport company in Lodz (Poland), which is our partner town, to replace their ODRA machine (Polish ICL clone) by an IBM mainframe (4381 model 12, IIRC) running VM/CMS, VSE, CICS, SQL/DS etc. The programs there were COBOL programs. Our manager told the people there, that there will be no problem, because COBOL is COBOL, after all. When we looked at the COBOL programs at the ODRA machine, we soon realized two severe problems that gave us some headaches: - a printer with line width 160 characters (we had 132 maximum); all ODRA programs of course used this line width for their reports - and variable definitions like this: 01 BITS PIC 1(8). that is: eight bits. So the migration to IBM was not as cheap as expected :-) what made our support more painful was the use of polish variable names throughout the programs ... nobody of us knew Polish, only one of them knew German, and one knew English :-( but it was a very nice experience, great fun, and we stayed friends until today Kind regards Bernd -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Latest COBOL standard is 2014 was Re: Cobol
[Default] On 27 Apr 2020 00:29:21 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main dcrayf...@gmail.com (David Crayford) wrote: >Define modern? A language is only as modern as its last standard (or >version). For example, Python is considered a modern language although >it's 30 years old. It's constantly >being updated. Python 3.6 supports static type checking! JavaScript is >the same. C++20 is being ratified, C2x is being worked on. Java 13 is >going to GA on z/OS this year! > >It's my understanding that COBOL-85 is the current standard in use on >z/OS? That's probably indicative of COBOL programmers not requiring new >language features as they don't >need them to maintain the code bases that they work on. COBOL >modernization on z/OS has mostly been back-end optimizer work which is >probably a lot more valuable to z/OS >IT managers then new language features that won't be used. If companies >want to modernize a COBOL application they integrate with Java like CICS >and IMS. The latest COBOL standard is 2014 with 2002 and 1989 extensions being predecessors. The 2014 standard supports IEEE binary floating point plus IEEE decimal floating point with all of the rounding options including round to nearest even. There also are true binary usages including binary character and USAGE BIT along with boolean operations. There is everything needed to fully work with SMf 30 records without weird coding. It would allow a relatively straight forward conversion of Assembler DSECTS to COBOL. Because it has language to support all of the IEEE fixed and floating point binary usages, IEEE and hex floating point could co-exist in the same program. I wanted USAGE BIT 50 years ago because I was dealing with bit switches on customer, product and open account files. Clark Morris > >REXX hasn't changed in almost 30 years. There's been a few updates to >TSO REXX such as EXECIO VBS support but that's about all. > >On 2020-04-25 7:03 AM, Wayne Bickerdike wrote: >> One of our guys was talking about modern languages such as C. I said what? >> >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 7:01 AM Seymour J Metz wrote: >> >>> Well what do you know? The emperor has no clothes. We shot an innocent >>> language. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >>> >>> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf >>> of Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 3:58 PM >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Cobol >>> >>> On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 18:26:49 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> There are blurbs for dozens of articles; which one is relevant? I tried >>> searxhing for COBOL, but got 0 hits. >>> I suspect that was OP's desperate and futile attempt to circumvent >>> secureweb, >>> as you often do. But, I hope (posting from web interface): >>> >>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/18wMr2wQiot_mC2NJkJL7buWujrBfP9suLfEWZL4dG8gjB_Zjaj31ZgILnrnn--CfD_RooCYfsFjxvxArhRiN2V2tCmTfs8NayUQCV2ProhQ0KfRlDMDZdg2alKOSjuWwTXeK_Lci9elkht49bjva6Fj7o1W1SIr2REv9PF2NO_PK0BStoe0irBBLJRM9a_tKg3QNHj3DghbIM6_s_J2QBa8K1XWudsYnadGx1bdpDNNTapriOq_jLHjoC742AxmqQVAJ4Szwl0aLrINIHWnzPzP_p0N_kYOi4keUEoOLuWRccU_ZVES-3NC05VlKLovPbiDfx9BUbsi3Kn4nGo1sHGipsJJfPFN4ClnEGuuMjWs6LU9f2293Fm0jTt3GhayZHNNDR8prcppx857Qz_vQpR6HOUIxm-p1DAvFYE8aFU_B3Da9y60snIIWQxr9qfkI67XWmwAvbGdgFfA9cP_uBHV85oupnnYfOSco5uQPIVE/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fstory%2Fcant-file-unemployment-dont-blame-cobol%2F >>> >>> >>> From: scott Ford >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 2:08 PM >>> >>> See this url ... >>> >>> >>> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1DYCAeckpzqV94PQWw8dHuuJalhW0eVroAe-0-S4pJl_FnqGfZxS4EcWK7cCAl1oA09gJJKNMcHC1Be4KK3D-KcMIEVRVBeNOw5sf7565Z6e9CTYIm43a-oit3GGWnum7LgBTpYCxV6CAhgR9TuXipYHaUjUUPtd7BICMs1zfFGQQ8NhAeXHdXvHPrGdxzaQmTRfNi8vGWGKk4fg_G75au8H3Ja9AbLwRb2m8-upI9jYdmy1ZYdzYlRF2kzlwN155wAFEug02LCkZ5Bpk3IvSuxwzwd1UUyk_5NUmIqwMFmcDxZ8SpSnwFspncJTV1bLmByZAIVczBfj-JctXDA5Ta99YBqxx1tBpdl0qN5MWPGsz1CGAQ_Is1sLoRxy9Dl_fCLgMhLDvO5L8-EsVff2IiswF1xKvwUDiAEPcV0mOxz5c915mExQuVbCTDL0KTJQEtCF5dYTiss8HJIK_dzSG8g/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com. >>>Can't File for Unemployment - Don?t Blame Cobol >>> >>> -- gil >>> >>> -- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>> >>> -- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >> > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
