Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Schuffenhauer, Mark]

I very much agree.

Getting people to write batch COBOL, itself wasn't the problem. CICS 
conversational stuff, DB2 interfacing were issues.  Exploiting new functions, 
JCL coding, job scheduling, resource/performance management, maintaining file 
health, not writing nice loops, and much more, was always the problem.That 
and how to work through the problems when things went bad.

Working through requirements and turning things into code has its own problems, 
and to me is a separate thing.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Laurence Chiu
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 4:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes 
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

CAUTION: External Email


Tried to read all the responses to this thread but I have missed this point. 
Unless NJ has a decent developer platform like Eclipse(?) or IBM Developer for 
z/OS Enterprise Edition then they are not only going to require Cobol 
programmers, but people with Z/OS knowledge like JCL, file system structure 
etc. Just knowing how to code might not be good enough.
Alternatively a good coach who can assist with that stuff while the person 
focuses on coding.

Then of course what is the application written in? Is it CICS/DB2, IMS, VSAM 
etc. They are skills in their own right.


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:30 AM Clark Morris  wrote:

> [Default] On 13 Apr 2020 11:32:51 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
> rpomm...@sfgmembers.com (Pommier, Rex) wrote:
>
> >What's the definition of "volunteer"?  The articles I've read say
> >they're
> looking for volunteers, although I can't believe they're looking for
> somebody to work for free!
>
> I'm considering actually putting a truncated resume online in Linked
> In and offering to do things such as review compile options.  Given
> that I am required to stay home due to Covid-19 and I wouldn't want
> any confidential information on my computer, the sort of help is that
> which I would provide a fellow SHARE member.  For billing concerns
> thee only pay project I would consider is in Canada.
>
> Clark Morris
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> >Behalf
> Of Dan at Poodles
> >Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:24 PM
> >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for
> >Mainframes
> Amid Coronavirus Pandemic
> >
> >Nobody asked the real question: "What are they paying?".
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> >On
> Behalf Of Pommier, Rex
> >Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:22 AM
> >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for
> Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic
> >
> >Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows
> >Server
> >2019 is ancient as well.  I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code
> inside it based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people
> complaining about that?
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> >Behalf
> Of Seymour J Metz
> >Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
> >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for
> >Mainframes
> Amid Coronavirus Pandemic
> >
> >Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture
> >is a
> lot older.
> >
> >I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been
> >in
> use for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade
> has been replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.
> >
> >
> >
> >The information contained in this message is confidential, protected
> >from
> disclosure and may be legally privileged.  If the reader of this
> message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent
> responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you
> are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any
> action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly
> prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this
> communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to
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> or hard copy format.  Thank you.
> >
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> >- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 

Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Laurence Chiu]

Tried to read all the responses to this thread but I have missed this
point. Unless NJ has a decent developer platform like Eclipse(?) or IBM
Developer for z/OS Enterprise Edition then they are not only going to
require Cobol programmers, but people with Z/OS knowledge like JCL, file
system structure etc. Just knowing how to code might not be good enough.
Alternatively a good coach who can assist with that stuff while the person
focuses on coding.

Then of course what is the application written in? Is it CICS/DB2, IMS,
VSAM etc. They are skills in their own right.


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:30 AM Clark Morris  wrote:

> [Default] On 13 Apr 2020 11:32:51 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
> rpomm...@sfgmembers.com (Pommier, Rex) wrote:
>
> >What's the definition of "volunteer"?  The articles I've read say they're
> looking for volunteers, although I can't believe they're looking for
> somebody to work for free!
>
> I'm considering actually putting a truncated resume online in Linked
> In and offering to do things such as review compile options.  Given
> that I am required to stay home due to Covid-19 and I wouldn't want
> any confidential information on my computer, the sort of help is that
> which I would provide a fellow SHARE member.  For billing concerns
> thee only pay project I would consider is in Canada.
>
> Clark Morris
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Dan at Poodles
> >Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:24 PM
> >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
> Amid Coronavirus Pandemic
> >
> >Nobody asked the real question: "What are they paying?".
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Pommier, Rex
> >Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:22 AM
> >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for
> Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic
> >
> >Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows Server
> >2019 is ancient as well.  I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code
> inside it based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people
> complaining about that?
> >
> >-Original Message-----
> >From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Seymour J Metz
> >Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
> >To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
> Amid Coronavirus Pandemic
> >
> >Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a
> lot older.
> >
> >I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in
> use for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has
> been replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.
> >
> >
> >
> >The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from
> disclosure and may be legally privileged.  If the reader of this message is
> not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for
> delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action
> omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If
> you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
> by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety,
> whether in electronic or hard copy format.  Thank you.
> >
> >--
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> >
> >The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from
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Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 13 Apr 2020 11:32:51 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
rpomm...@sfgmembers.com (Pommier, Rex) wrote:

>What's the definition of "volunteer"?  The articles I've read say they're 
>looking for volunteers, although I can't believe they're looking for somebody 
>to work for free!

I'm considering actually putting a truncated resume online in Linked
In and offering to do things such as review compile options.  Given
that I am required to stay home due to Covid-19 and I wouldn't want
any confidential information on my computer, the sort of help is that
which I would provide a fellow SHARE member.  For billing concerns
thee only pay project I would consider is in Canada. 

Clark Morris
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Dan at Poodles
>Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:24 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid 
>Coronavirus Pandemic
>
>Nobody asked the real question: "What are they paying?".
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>Behalf Of Pommier, Rex
>Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:22 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes 
>Amid Coronavirus Pandemic
>
>Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows Server
>2019 is ancient as well.  I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code inside 
>it based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people complaining 
>about that?  
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Seymour J Metz
>Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid 
>Coronavirus Pandemic
>
>Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a lot 
>older. 
>
>I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use 
>for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been 
>replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.
>
>
>
>The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from 
>disclosure and may be legally privileged.  If the reader of this message is 
>not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering 
>this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
>disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in 
>reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have 
>received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying 
>to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in 
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Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Dan at Poodles]

They'll get exactly what they pay for.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

What's the definition of "volunteer"?  The articles I've read say they're
looking for volunteers, although I can't believe they're looking for
somebody to work for free!

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Dan at Poodles
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Nobody asked the real question: "What are they paying?".

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows Server
2019 is ancient as well.  I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code inside
it based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people complaining
about that?  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a
lot older. 

I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use
for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been
replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.



The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from
disclosure and may be legally privileged.  If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for
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Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Pommier, Rex]

What's the definition of "volunteer"?  The articles I've read say they're 
looking for volunteers, although I can't believe they're looking for somebody 
to work for free!

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Dan 
at Poodles
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 1:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid 
Coronavirus Pandemic

Nobody asked the real question: "What are they paying?".

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes 
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows Server
2019 is ancient as well.  I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code inside it 
based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people complaining about 
that?  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid 
Coronavirus Pandemic

Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a lot 
older. 

I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use for 
200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been 
replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.



The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from 
disclosure and may be legally privileged.  If the reader of this message is not 
the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this 
message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, 
distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, 
is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this 
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this 
message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard 
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Dan at Poodles]

Nobody asked the real question: "What are they paying?".

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows Server
2019 is ancient as well.  I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code inside
it based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people complaining
about that?  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a
lot older. 

I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use
for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been
replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.



The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from
disclosure and may be legally privileged.  If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for
delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action
omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If
you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety,
whether in electronic or hard copy format.  Thank you.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[scott Ford]

Bob,

Yep, I have done for the State of NJ, State of NY and NYC. They are pretty
similar, bureaucratic BS.
Backward because some of the managment folks were backward or not listening
to the techies.
Seen a lot of this and Image you all have too.

Scott

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:22 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Maybe, but I look at it a little differently.  IBM has been aware for some
> time that their customers are hurting for COBOL (and other MVS-related)
> skills, and has been working on it.  This sounds to me like an attempt to
> publicize something they've been doing all along.  If a few more people
> become aware of it now in the light (so to speak) of COVID-19, that's all
> to
> the good, and if IBM can garner a little more credit for what they've been
> doing all along, so much the better.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* As a father, I have a vested interest in seeing my children do well in
> school.  If they don't, they won't graduate, and will probably wind up
> living in my house until they are thirty years old.  This will interfere
> with my plan to reach retirement age without killing another human being.
> -W Bruce Cameron, _Study Habits_ (2001) */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:28
>
> A better article than most of them, I think:
>
>
> https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/new-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavir
> us.html
> 
>
> Had to laugh at IBM saying "We're giving away COBOL training to help with
> this!" - right, just what we need, newbie COBOL programmers fixing
> mission-critical systems. Plus I can't imagine that this doesn't require
> use
> of tricky stuff like ISPF and JCL. A very weak attempt to jump on the
> bandwagon, I'm afraid.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 



*IDMWORKS *

Scott Ford

z/OS Dev.




“By elevating a friend or Collegue you elevate yourself, by demeaning a
friend or collegue you demean yourself”



www.idmworks.com

scott.f...@idmworks.com

Blog: www.idmworks.com/blog





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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

Maybe, but I look at it a little differently.  IBM has been aware for some
time that their customers are hurting for COBOL (and other MVS-related)
skills, and has been working on it.  This sounds to me like an attempt to
publicize something they've been doing all along.  If a few more people
become aware of it now in the light (so to speak) of COVID-19, that's all to
the good, and if IBM can garner a little more credit for what they've been
doing all along, so much the better.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* As a father, I have a vested interest in seeing my children do well in
school.  If they don't, they won't graduate, and will probably wind up
living in my house until they are thirty years old.  This will interfere
with my plan to reach retirement age without killing another human being.
-W Bruce Cameron, _Study Habits_ (2001) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:28

A better article than most of them, I think:

https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/new-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavir
us.html

Had to laugh at IBM saying "We're giving away COBOL training to help with
this!" - right, just what we need, newbie COBOL programmers fixing
mission-critical systems. Plus I can't imagine that this doesn't require use
of tricky stuff like ISPF and JCL. A very weak attempt to jump on the
bandwagon, I'm afraid.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Pommier, Rex]

Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows Server 2019 
is ancient as well.  I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code inside it 
based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people complaining about 
that?  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid 
Coronavirus Pandemic

Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a lot 
older. 

I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use for 
200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been 
replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.



The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from 
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Mark Regan]

The article mentions Python, but it is 30 years old, and the latest
version, v3, is not even backwards compatible with v2 (if I remember
correctly).

Regards,

*Mark T. Regan, K8MTR*
CTO1 USNR-Retired, 1969-1991
Nationwide Insurance, Retired, 1986-2017


On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 11:51 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a
> lot older.
>
> I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in
> use for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has
> been replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Phil Smith III 
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:27 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid
> Coronavirus Pandemic
>
> A better article than most of them, I think:
>
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/10R7oziYWff-XnS7oxCfjL9m1BdqyyN92QDvpU5lSy_gisAdqZA2IIhqm-6quMTnaADKayaieWOPM5h-glt70epo05Jh5ItrpaG7lWkjvUoAu4FYJ0eL9UUTr8kudZpA-J39j5Lno9Si3viMfDMXwh1iUpJ7IJal7xYNn4n3xbDa8Ric3vzGvZyzXxiijZtR-KnCtWv0zTuCYV5M-273y-PRWdWA-N_5W43VfhrPJWyM1wU_a5xvTvfPcutHuKvNuV9SBKH1L0cg25E5lLVcl8_sObmG2U5Gge6lGqR737oyEWtMak9MN1T1pJpBjP4gvaGONw9Pouv2aey7YgYlv-Y_Pf9iBnPDZGG5cYmrW1U_ysTPHxZuEwuxxX4YQZdmGM6urI0GHAAy_tPxBYo6dolfwtGrBrD4q4bPZaIc2_J5vPSApRiRYtFVx1fVZDD92g-FvL213OtxdqTun4K2_QwruPa8EjRS7MkMFmfF9nzE/https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Ftechnology%2F2020%2F04%2Fnew-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavirus.html
>
>
>
> Had to laugh at IBM saying "We're giving away COBOL training to help with
> this!" - right, just what we need, newbie COBOL programmers fixing
> mission-critical systems. Plus I can't imagine that this doesn't require
> use of tricky stuff like ISPF and JCL. A very weak attempt to jump on the
> bandwagon, I'm afraid.
>
>
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a lot 
older. 

I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use for 
200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been 
replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:27 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

A better article than most of them, I think:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/10R7oziYWff-XnS7oxCfjL9m1BdqyyN92QDvpU5lSy_gisAdqZA2IIhqm-6quMTnaADKayaieWOPM5h-glt70epo05Jh5ItrpaG7lWkjvUoAu4FYJ0eL9UUTr8kudZpA-J39j5Lno9Si3viMfDMXwh1iUpJ7IJal7xYNn4n3xbDa8Ric3vzGvZyzXxiijZtR-KnCtWv0zTuCYV5M-273y-PRWdWA-N_5W43VfhrPJWyM1wU_a5xvTvfPcutHuKvNuV9SBKH1L0cg25E5lLVcl8_sObmG2U5Gge6lGqR737oyEWtMak9MN1T1pJpBjP4gvaGONw9Pouv2aey7YgYlv-Y_Pf9iBnPDZGG5cYmrW1U_ysTPHxZuEwuxxX4YQZdmGM6urI0GHAAy_tPxBYo6dolfwtGrBrD4q4bPZaIc2_J5vPSApRiRYtFVx1fVZDD92g-FvL213OtxdqTun4K2_QwruPa8EjRS7MkMFmfF9nzE/https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Ftechnology%2F2020%2F04%2Fnew-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavirus.html



Had to laugh at IBM saying "We're giving away COBOL training to help with 
this!" - right, just what we need, newbie COBOL programmers fixing 
mission-critical systems. Plus I can't imagine that this doesn't require use of 
tricky stuff like ISPF and JCL. A very weak attempt to jump on the bandwagon, 
I'm afraid.


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

A better article than most of them, I think:

https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/new-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavirus.html

 

Had to laugh at IBM saying "We're giving away COBOL training to help with 
this!" - right, just what we need, newbie COBOL programmers fixing 
mission-critical systems. Plus I can't imagine that this doesn't require use of 
tricky stuff like ISPF and JCL. A very weak attempt to jump on the bandwagon, 
I'm afraid.


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

Seymour J Metz wrote:

>because you seemed to find unusual something that was bog standard.

 

No, I wondered which of a few possibilities it was. RIF.


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

Many professors enjoy teaching, but hold their class load down to a level that 
lets them do their research. Others dislike teaching and let their graduate 
assistants and such teach as many classes as possible. IMHO, iit is better to 
accommodate the preferences of the faculty.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 8:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Seems pretty usual for tenured professors to farm out teaching to locums
and do "research".

As for what they do on a sabbatical, research...

On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 9:07 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> My point is you seemed to be surprised by something that a faculty brat
> should not have found unusual.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Phil Smith III 
> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 12:37 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid
> Coronavirus Pandemic
>
> Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
> >It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach
> elsewhere.
>
>
>
> Um.no kidding. What's your point?
>
>
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Wayne Bickerdike]

Seems pretty usual for tenured professors to farm out teaching to locums
and do "research".

As for what they do on a sabbatical, research...

On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 9:07 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> My point is you seemed to be surprised by something that a faculty brat
> should not have found unusual.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Phil Smith III 
> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 12:37 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid
> Coronavirus Pandemic
>
> Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
> >It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach
> elsewhere.
>
>
>
> Um.no kidding. What's your point?
>
>
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

My point is you seemed to be surprised by something that a faculty brat should 
not have found unusual.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 12:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Seymour J Metz wrote:

>It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach 
>elsewhere.



Um.no kidding. What's your point?


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

because you seemed to find unusual something that was bog standard.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 10:55 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Bob Bridges wrote:

>He was just responding to your parenthesis, I assumed.



Explaining how sabbaticals work to a faculty brat? Why? That wasn't the 
question I asked at all. Just sayin'.


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[scott Ford]

Scott:

You must also agree its not always efficient coding or usage of memory. In
my experience, it was ease of usage. For example, you mention HLASM and
people 'give you that look'.
It also depends on the person writing the code itself.

Just my $.02 worth

Scott

On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 8:33 AM Scott Chapman <
scott.chap...@epstrategies.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:10:02 -0400, Phil Smith III 
> wrote:
>
> >Sigh:
> >
> >
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/
> >
>
> At the end it really goes off the rails when it starts making performance
> assumptions that Java would be impossibly slow, and maybe Python would be
> better.
>
> Python is on my list of "one of these days I should probably learn that",
> but from my limited Python knowledge that seemed really unlikely that
> Python would be faster than Java. Some simple googling around confirms that
> it's really hard to find any references to Python being faster than Java
> for anything but trivial scripts. Although there are apparently some ways
> to compile Python, Python's loose typing is often cited as a potential
> performance limitation as well.
>
> And in real life Java is definitely not always slower than COBOL.
> Just-in-time compilation can result in more performant object code than
> ahead-of-time compilation, especially when "ahead-of-time" means "a decade
> ago for a target machine that was not real new even then". And Java runs on
> the zIIPs, which can be a significant advantage in some environments.
>
> But I would be surprised to find a case where COBOL isn't the most memory
> efficient.
>
> Scott Chapman
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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-- 



*IDMWORKS *

Scott Ford

z/OS Dev.




“By elevating a friend or Collegue you elevate yourself, by demeaning a
friend or collegue you demean yourself”



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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[scott Ford]

In Mexico of course the CICS maps were in Spanish

On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:15 PM scott Ford  wrote:

> Yeah, I worked in Mexico and Europe , primarily Swiss French. The CICS
> maps were in the countries language. Where our initial challenge was Swiss
> French keyboards, they were quiet different.
>
> Scott
>
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 9:39 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
>> He was just responding to your parenthesis, I assumed.
>>
>> ---
>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>>
>> /* Q: Why is there no such organization as Chocoholics Anonymous?  A:
>> Because no one wants to quit. */
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
>> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
>> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 00:38
>>
>> Um.no kidding. What's your point?
>>
>> --- Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> >It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach
>> elsewhere.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
>> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 13:10
>>
>> When my dad was teaching in South America (which he'd do for a few months
>> at
>> a time when I was a kid - he's gone now, and it only now occurs to me to
>> wonder how that worked, since he was a full professor at a university;
>> perhaps leave, perhaps sabbatical?)...
>>
>> --
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>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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> --
> Scott Ford
> IDMWORKS
> z/OS Development
>
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IDMWORKS
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[scott Ford]

Yeah, I worked in Mexico and Europe , primarily Swiss French. The CICS maps
were in the countries language. Where our initial challenge was Swiss
French keyboards, they were quiet different.

Scott

On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 9:39 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> He was just responding to your parenthesis, I assumed.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Q: Why is there no such organization as Chocoholics Anonymous?  A:
> Because no one wants to quit. */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 00:38
>
> Um.no kidding. What's your point?
>
> --- Seymour J Metz wrote:
> >It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach
> elsewhere.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 13:10
>
> When my dad was teaching in South America (which he'd do for a few months
> at
> a time when I was a kid - he's gone now, and it only now occurs to me to
> wonder how that worked, since he was a full professor at a university;
> perhaps leave, perhaps sabbatical?)...
>
> --
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

Bob Bridges wrote:

>He was just responding to your parenthesis, I assumed.

 

Explaining how sabbaticals work to a faculty brat? Why? That wasn't the 
question I asked at all. Just sayin'.


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

He was just responding to your parenthesis, I assumed.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Q: Why is there no such organization as Chocoholics Anonymous?  A:
Because no one wants to quit. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 00:38

Um.no kidding. What's your point?

--- Seymour J Metz wrote:
>It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach
elsewhere.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 13:10

When my dad was teaching in South America (which he'd do for a few months at
a time when I was a kid - he's gone now, and it only now occurs to me to
wonder how that worked, since he was a full professor at a university;
perhaps leave, perhaps sabbatical?)...

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Scott Chapman]

On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:10:02 -0400, Phil Smith III  wrote:

>Sigh:
>
>https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/
>

At the end it really goes off the rails when it starts making performance 
assumptions that Java would be impossibly slow, and maybe Python would be 
better. 

Python is on my list of "one of these days I should probably learn that", but 
from my limited Python knowledge that seemed really unlikely that Python would 
be faster than Java. Some simple googling around confirms that it's really hard 
to find any references to Python being faster than Java for anything but 
trivial scripts. Although there are apparently some ways to compile Python, 
Python's loose typing is often cited as a potential performance limitation as 
well. 

And in real life Java is definitely not always slower than COBOL. Just-in-time 
compilation can result in more performant object code than ahead-of-time 
compilation, especially when "ahead-of-time" means "a decade ago for a target 
machine that was not real new even then". And Java runs on the zIIPs, which can 
be a significant advantage in some environments. 

But I would be surprised to find a case where COBOL isn't the most memory 
efficient. 

Scott Chapman

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

Seymour J Metz wrote:

>It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach 
>elsewhere.

 

Um.no kidding. What's your point?


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

Well, there was that one bit about a "40-year-old system comprised of a COBOL 
mainframe and four other separate systems".  But it's attributed to an 
anonymous "leader from Connecticut"; maybe the writer of the article flinched 
as badly as I did, but didn't feel obligated to say so.

(Once I learned that "comprise" is does not mean "compose", you see, I have to 
point it out wherever possible.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman to hear him, is he still 
wrong?  -George Carlin */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 17:17

I didn’t think this article was all that bad. The biggest error was in a quote 
from a politician, which I understood to be giving an example of some of the 
stupid stuff people (mostly politicians) are saying. I thought it could be 
clearer that by the “newest version” from 2014 they meant “the most recent ANSI 
standard.” Still, compared to some of the other nonsense articles I’ve seen 
this wasn’t that bad.

--- On Apr 10, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Phil Smith III  wrote:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/

> Spot the huge errors.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Pew, Curtis G]

On Apr 10, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Phil Smith III  wrote:
> 
> Spot the huge errors.
> 

I didn’t think this article was all that bad. The biggest error was in a quote 
from a politician, which I understood to be giving an example of some of the 
stupid stuff people (mostly politicians) are saying. I thought it could be 
clearer that by the “newest version” from 2014 they meant “the most recent ANSI 
standard.” Still, compared to some of the other nonsense articles I’ve seen 
this wasn’t that bad.


-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

Sigh:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/

 

Spot the huge errors.


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Google creates online unemployment application with state of New York (New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic)

[Mark Regan]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/09/google-creates-online-unemployment-application-with-state-of-new-york.html

or

*https://tinyurl.com/uvrud2p *

Regards,

Mark Regan

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[John Baker]

I recall a tool from the early 1970s that could take a program and change all 
of the variables to combinations of "I", "O", "0", and "1".

The "real source code" was kept on punched cards in a vault, and the "encrypted 
source code" was kept online.

It was believed that a thief would find the "encrypted source code" to be 
useless.

I don't know if that belief was ever put to the test.

John P. Baker

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:09:56 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote: 
>
>Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables 
>whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for 
>readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!
> 
Leads me to think of https://esolangs.org/wiki/%42%72%61%69%6e%66%75%63%6b

-- gil

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:09:56 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote: 
>
>Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables 
>whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for 
>readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!
> 
Leads me to think of https://esolangs.org/wiki/%42%72%61%69%6e%66%75%63%6b

-- gil

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach 
elsewhere. Richard Feynman, for instance, was on a sabbatical teaching in 
Brazil when he learned to play the frigideira.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 1:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Tony Thigpen wrote:

>Many years ago, a programmer where I worked was told to write a program

>in Cobol instead of RPG (which he preferred). So he did, but all the

>variables were in Spanish. Management was not impressed.



When my dad was teaching in South America (which he'd do for a few months at a 
time when I was a kid-he's gone now, and it only now occurs to me to wonder how 
that worked, since he was a full professor at a university; perhaps leave, 
perhaps sabbatical??), he came across a PL/I compiler that had been translated 
into Spanish-that is, the language keywords were Spanish! He was sort of 
impressed at the effort, but could also see the inherent problems it 
represented with support etc.



Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables 
whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for 
readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

Tony Thigpen wrote:

>Many years ago, a programmer where I worked was told to write a program

>in Cobol instead of RPG (which he preferred). So he did, but all the

>variables were in Spanish. Management was not impressed.

 

When my dad was teaching in South America (which he'd do for a few months at a 
time when I was a kid-he's gone now, and it only now occurs to me to wonder how 
that worked, since he was a full professor at a university; perhaps leave, 
perhaps sabbatical??), he came across a PL/I compiler that had been translated 
into Spanish-that is, the language keywords were Spanish! He was sort of 
impressed at the effort, but could also see the inherent problems it 
represented with support etc.

 

Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables 
whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for 
readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!


--
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

The mainframe system in NJ is a lot newer than C*, which none of the media call 
aging. The console in the article isn't even the right vendor.

* Which is also a half century old. The difference in age
  is only a decade. 


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Barkow, Eileen [02bc504b1642-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 3:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/business/coronavirus-cobol-programmers-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

-Original Message-
From: Barkow, Eileen
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 1:32 PM
To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
Subject: RE: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

NJ Gov Murphy just mentioned need for Cobol programmers during his press 
conference currently going on.
Someone must have mentioned it to him - maybe he knows about IBM-MAIN

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLisp_%2528programming_language%2529data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=MrSiwgql6bFs4pv87tw2VEmPhWtmOXa1R9BGmKfYOnQ%3Dreserved=0

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPrologdata=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=VUaH7%2B1N7yT6%2BpTms131c2Yg%2Bk61yocbmc3z8hdFuu8%3Dreserved=0


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3Dreserved=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
PINION, RICHARD W. [rpin...@firsthorizon.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

WISP???

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a 
totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3Dreserved=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input, 
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish than 
the conviction of the poor that the rich are.  -Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all programming 
languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly different ways."  Learn 
one, and you have a head start to learning any of them.

Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process, 
Output.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email

Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Brandon Tucker]

Per this article:

"The governor's call for COBOL programming help has been fruitful, with several 
volunteers stepping up to help with maintaining the old mainframes."
...
"The state plans to update its COVID-19 website to allow other occupational 
fields to volunteer for technology aid without the need for medical training."

Sounds like some people have already gotten through, and the state will put up 
a website soon for people to volunteer.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/491526-nj-seeking-help-from-cobol-programmers-in-coronavirus-fight

Sent from Outlook Mobile<https://aka.ms/blhgte>


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Barkow, Eileen <02bc504b1642-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 1:32:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

NJ Gov Murphy just mentioned need for Cobol programmers during his press 
conference currently going on.
Someone must have mentioned it to him - maybe he knows about IBM-MAIN

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLisp_%2528programming_language%2529data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=MrSiwgql6bFs4pv87tw2VEmPhWtmOXa1R9BGmKfYOnQ%3Dreserved=0

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPrologdata=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=VUaH7%2B1N7yT6%2BpTms131c2Yg%2Bk61yocbmc3z8hdFuu8%3Dreserved=0


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3Dreserved=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
PINION, RICHARD W. [rpin...@firsthorizon.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

WISP???

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a 
totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3Dreserved=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input, 
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish than 
the conviction of the poor that the rich are.  -Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all programming 
languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly different ways."  Learn 
one, and you have a head start to learning any of them.

Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process, 
Output.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instruction

Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Barkow, Eileen]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/business/coronavirus-cobol-programmers-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

-Original Message-
From: Barkow, Eileen
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 1:32 PM
To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
Subject: RE: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

NJ Gov Murphy just mentioned need for Cobol programmers during his press 
conference currently going on.
Someone must have mentioned it to him - maybe he knows about IBM-MAIN

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLisp_%2528programming_language%2529data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=MrSiwgql6bFs4pv87tw2VEmPhWtmOXa1R9BGmKfYOnQ%3Dreserved=0

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPrologdata=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=VUaH7%2B1N7yT6%2BpTms131c2Yg%2Bk61yocbmc3z8hdFuu8%3Dreserved=0


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3Dreserved=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
PINION, RICHARD W. [rpin...@firsthorizon.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

WISP???

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a 
totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3Dreserved=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input, 
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish than 
the conviction of the poor that the rich are.  -Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all programming 
languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly different ways."  Learn 
one, and you have a head start to learning any of them.

Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process, 
Output.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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copying of this e-ma

Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Barkow, Eileen]

NJ Gov Murphy just mentioned need for Cobol programmers during his press 
conference currently going on.
Someone must have mentioned it to him - maybe he knows about IBM-MAIN

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLisp_%2528programming_language%2529data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=MrSiwgql6bFs4pv87tw2VEmPhWtmOXa1R9BGmKfYOnQ%3Dreserved=0

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPrologdata=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=VUaH7%2B1N7yT6%2BpTms131c2Yg%2Bk61yocbmc3z8hdFuu8%3Dreserved=0


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3Dreserved=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
PINION, RICHARD W. [rpin...@firsthorizon.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

WISP???

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a 
totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3Dreserved=0


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input, 
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish than 
the conviction of the poor that the rich are.  -Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all programming 
languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly different ways."  Learn 
one, and you have a head start to learning any of them.

Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process, 
Output.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_%28programming_language%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
PINION, RICHARD W. [rpin...@firsthorizon.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

WISP???

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a 
totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input, 
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish than 
the conviction of the poor that the rich are.  -Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all programming 
languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly different ways."  Learn 
one, and you have a head start to learning any of them.

Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process, 
Output.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

Ooh, SQL, I forgot about that one.  I sure did have problems with SQL when I 
first tried to wrap my head around it.  Maybe I'll have to exclude it from the 
set of "algorithmic languages", if I'm to preserve my original assertion.

(Thankfully I had a SQL jock who sat nearby, about the same time I had to begin 
using it for more than just one-line queries.  The trick, I finally concluded, 
is to ~start~ with the FROM clause.  Design that first, and maybe GROUP BY 
next, and everything else seems easy enough after that.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned 
about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and 
where eveyone lives the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and 
resentment.  -C S Lewis, preface to _The Screwtape Letters_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 18:50

True. Which is why many (experienced?) programmers, at least at first, have
some problems with SQL and thinking in "sets".

--- On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM Nightwatch RenBand wrote:
> Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
> Output.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[John McKown]

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM Nightwatch RenBand 
wrote:

> I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all
> programming languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly
> different ways."  Learn one, and you have a head start to learning any of
> them.
>

Unless your mind is permanently destroyed by first learning APL {grin}. Or
any of the LISP derived languages. Or maybe even Smalltalk or "functional"
languages where variable don't (they are basically write-once-read-many).



> Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
> Output.
>

True. Which is why many (experienced?) programmers, at least at first, have
some problems with SQL and thinking in "sets".

-- 
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[PINION, RICHARD W.]

WISP???

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a 
totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input, 
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish than 
the conviction of the poor that the rich are.  -Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all programming 
languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly different ways."  Learn 
one, and you have a head start to learning any of them.

Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process, 
Output.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a 
totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input,
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish
than the conviction of the poor that the rich are.  -Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all
programming languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly
different ways."  Learn one, and you have a head start to learning any of
them.

Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
Output.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input,
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish
than the conviction of the poor that the rich are.  -Mark Twain */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all
programming languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly
different ways."  Learn one, and you have a head start to learning any of
them.

Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
Output.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmattson...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all
programming languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly
different ways."  Learn one, and you have a head start to learning any of
them.
Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
Output.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

Good point, and one not often enough mentioned nowadays, I suspect (though I've 
been away from applications development long enough now that I'm out of touch).

I was a COBOL developer for 15 years and somehow never got near CICS or DB2.  I 
learned SQL later, and never did do any CICS development.  Didn't plan it that 
way, just never ended up on a CICS project.  But I think that's unusual; I 
certainly don't mean it as a contradiction to Kirk's general point, with which 
I completely agree.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Another reason why creative individuals prefer to work at home, as opposed 
to an office, is that when you need to scratch yourself, you don't have to 
sneak behind the copying machine and settle for a hasty grope.  At home, you 
can rear back and assault the affected region with both hands, or, if you want, 
gardening implements.  -Dave Barry */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Kirk Wolf
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 12:29

I apologize if I'm repeating, but let me say that there are more skills to
a "COBOL programmer" than learning COBOL.   There is JCL, utilities, data
set usage, CICS, DB2, etc, etc.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Kirk Wolf]

I apologize if I'm repeating, but let me say that there are more skills to
a "COBOL programmer" than learning COBOL.   There is JCL, utilities, data
set usage, CICS, DB2, etc, etc.

If IBM or big companies that rely on these skills really wanted to solve
them, they probably could.   My belief is that they just assume that they
can outsource this to developing countries that *will* find a way to
provide some minimally trained programmers.After all, programming labor
is just a commodity where quality or customer business knowledge doesn't
matter ;-)

I would suggest that IBM sponsor, or at least support (allow?) efforts to
provide a "cloud enabled, provisionable, *legacy* z/OS education
platform".   Build it on zPDT, but allow it to be provisioned in a cloud so
that cloned base image of z/OS could be provisioned for students along with
their own volumes for UCAT/data.Start with something *basic* that would
allow for COBOL / batch / JCL / TSO / SPF development.   Provide web based
everything - including 3270 emulation, and tools to import export student
data.

Then, allow any education provider (traditional/online University, MOOC) to
use it - either on their own cloud or through fee-based cloud/VPS
providers. The important thing is that it be simple to provision and
use.

Kirk Wolf
http://dovetail.com

PS> Maybe even Hercules + MVS3.8 would be good enough for a basic "legacy"
learning environment?I'm not current on community efforts there, but
what if someone packaged a VM or VirtualBox with a preconfigured Linux
image that included Hercules, MVS3.8, a separate web interface for
administration, user tools for import/export, 3270 emulation, some docs,
etc, etc.Then it could be downloaded or cloud/VPS served and any
education platform could just point students to it and then add
instructional value on top.AFAIK, no legal SPF is available - so this
would be very limited.Also - can you really attract young people to
learn a platform where the docs are 30+ year old scanned images?

My prediction: at some point IBM will realize that the risks/costs of have
a freely available educational z/OS subset aren't as great as the
risks/costs of the decreasing demand for z/OS and complete lack of
innovations by independent entrepreneurs.   But this will probably occur
too late; only in hindsight :-(

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[scott Ford]

Nightwatch I agree, totally

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 11:07 AM Nightwatch RenBand 
wrote:

> I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all
> programming languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly
> different ways."  Learn one, and you have a head start to learning any of
> them.
> Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
> Output.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
-- 
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Nightwatch RenBand]

I totally agree with Bob Bridges.  It can be boiled down to "all
programming languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly
different ways."  Learn one, and you have a head start to learning any of
them.
Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
Output.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[R.S.]

W dniu 06.04.2020 o 21:21, Tony Thigpen pisze:
Many years ago, a programmer where I worked was told to write a 
program in Cobol instead of RPG (which he preferred). So he did, but 
all the variables were in Spanish. Management was not impressed.


This was in North Alabama early 1980's and there there was not even 
one Mexican restaurant in town back then, not even Taco Bell (if you 
call it Mexican) so nobody really spoke Spanish. (FYI, he was from 
Mexico, moved to the US, served in the Army, married a girl from 
Alabama and was most-likely the only real Mexican in 200 miles. He did 
get his citizenship while I knew him.)


Well, I don't live in Alabama and we don't have Mexican immigrants. We 
also don't have Spanish people in Poland. But I have to do with Spanish 
or even Catalonian names in JCL, COBOL or DB2. Guess who wrote it.


BTW: I'm not sure about Taco Bell, but we have McDonalds and Subway. I 
think is a basis for some compensation. ;-)



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

Were the Spanish variable names at least chosen to clearly convey the purposes 
of the variables to those who spoke Spanish?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 3:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Many years ago, a programmer where I worked was told to write a program
in Cobol instead of RPG (which he preferred). So he did, but all the
variables were in Spanish. Management was not impressed.

This was in North Alabama early 1980's and there there was not even one
Mexican restaurant in town back then, not even Taco Bell (if you call it
Mexican) so nobody really spoke Spanish. (FYI, he was from Mexico, moved
to the US, served in the Army, married a girl from Alabama and was
most-likely the only real Mexican in 200 miles. He did get his
citizenship while I knew him.)

Tony Thigpen

Seymour J Metz wrote on 4/6/20 1:33 PM:
> The words may be recognizable but not mean what you think. It's rare for a 
> keyword to be more than casually related to the native language meanings.
>
> As for clear variable names, that's an issue of good style rather than 
> something dictated by the language syntax, except for a few abominations 
> whose names shall not sully my keyboard.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 1:27 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid 
> Coronavirus Pandemic
>
> It's why I said "especially at first".  Once you get used to a language, it
> makes little difference to you whether you write "ADDI RG5,LDL" or "ADD
> LAMDA-LEVEL TO SUBTOT".  But when you're first learning a language, and
> especially when you're learning your ~first~ language, yeah, it really
> helps.
>
> That PL/C teacher I had in college was pretty good at this.  "If you're
> writing a program to compare two numbers and tell you which is larger,
> what's the first thing you have to do?", he asked us.  After we'd worn
> ourselves out on wrong guesses ("print the larger number", "no, compare the
> two numbers" etc) he said "No, the very first thing you have to do is GET
> THE FIRST NUMBER".  And he wrote on the blackboard "GET NUMBER1".  In PL/1,
> "GET" is a perfectly acceptable verb, so we were "writing a program" (well,
> he was writing it, but we were learning algorithmic thought at least)
> without even noticing at first the issue of syntax.
>
> I'm not saying I can understand APL as intuitively as REXX.  (Ok, I'm not
> saying I can understand APL intuitively at all.)  But it makes a lot less
> difference to me now than it did fifty years ago; I know that once I've
> become familiar with a language, it'll seem pretty natural.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* By afflictions, God is spoiling us of what otherwise might have spoiled
> us.  When he makes the world too hot for us to hold, we let it go.  -John
> Powell */
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 13:04
>
> Well, it helps if the keywords from your native language mean the same as
> they do in your native language. To say nothing of keywords like 77 and 88.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:43 PM
>
> Yeah, I saw that line too.  I don't know of ~any~ 3GL algorithmic languages
> that are very "English-like", although I suppose it helps to have
> recognizable words to program with, especially at first when you're not used
> to programming.
>
> (DYLAKOR touted DYL-280II as a 4GL, but IM-not-so-humble-O it simply isn't.
> It is a very handy 3GL, but that's all.)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 05:19
>
>1. The check's in the mail
>2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
>3. COBOL is English like
>
> BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.
>
> 
> From: Gabe Goldberg [g...@gabegold.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM
>
> Better article...
>
> --

Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Tony Thigpen]

Many years ago, a programmer where I worked was told to write a program 
in Cobol instead of RPG (which he preferred). So he did, but all the 
variables were in Spanish. Management was not impressed.


This was in North Alabama early 1980's and there there was not even one 
Mexican restaurant in town back then, not even Taco Bell (if you call it 
Mexican) so nobody really spoke Spanish. (FYI, he was from Mexico, moved 
to the US, served in the Army, married a girl from Alabama and was 
most-likely the only real Mexican in 200 miles. He did get his 
citizenship while I knew him.)


Tony Thigpen

Seymour J Metz wrote on 4/6/20 1:33 PM:

The words may be recognizable but not mean what you think. It's rare for a 
keyword to be more than casually related to the native language meanings.

As for clear variable names, that's an issue of good style rather than 
something dictated by the language syntax, except for a few abominations whose 
names shall not sully my keyboard.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 1:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

It's why I said "especially at first".  Once you get used to a language, it
makes little difference to you whether you write "ADDI RG5,LDL" or "ADD
LAMDA-LEVEL TO SUBTOT".  But when you're first learning a language, and
especially when you're learning your ~first~ language, yeah, it really
helps.

That PL/C teacher I had in college was pretty good at this.  "If you're
writing a program to compare two numbers and tell you which is larger,
what's the first thing you have to do?", he asked us.  After we'd worn
ourselves out on wrong guesses ("print the larger number", "no, compare the
two numbers" etc) he said "No, the very first thing you have to do is GET
THE FIRST NUMBER".  And he wrote on the blackboard "GET NUMBER1".  In PL/1,
"GET" is a perfectly acceptable verb, so we were "writing a program" (well,
he was writing it, but we were learning algorithmic thought at least)
without even noticing at first the issue of syntax.

I'm not saying I can understand APL as intuitively as REXX.  (Ok, I'm not
saying I can understand APL intuitively at all.)  But it makes a lot less
difference to me now than it did fifty years ago; I know that once I've
become familiar with a language, it'll seem pretty natural.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* By afflictions, God is spoiling us of what otherwise might have spoiled
us.  When he makes the world too hot for us to hold, we let it go.  -John
Powell */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 13:04

Well, it helps if the keywords from your native language mean the same as
they do in your native language. To say nothing of keywords like 77 and 88.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Bob Bridges 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:43 PM

Yeah, I saw that line too.  I don't know of ~any~ 3GL algorithmic languages
that are very "English-like", although I suppose it helps to have
recognizable words to program with, especially at first when you're not used
to programming.

(DYLAKOR touted DYL-280II as a 4GL, but IM-not-so-humble-O it simply isn't.
It is a very handy 3GL, but that's all.)

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 05:19

   1. The check's in the mail
   2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
   3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.


From: Gabe Goldberg [g...@gabegold.com]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM

Better article...

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

The words may be recognizable but not mean what you think. It's rare for a 
keyword to be more than casually related to the native language meanings.

As for clear variable names, that's an issue of good style rather than 
something dictated by the language syntax, except for a few abominations whose 
names shall not sully my keyboard.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 1:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

It's why I said "especially at first".  Once you get used to a language, it
makes little difference to you whether you write "ADDI RG5,LDL" or "ADD
LAMDA-LEVEL TO SUBTOT".  But when you're first learning a language, and
especially when you're learning your ~first~ language, yeah, it really
helps.

That PL/C teacher I had in college was pretty good at this.  "If you're
writing a program to compare two numbers and tell you which is larger,
what's the first thing you have to do?", he asked us.  After we'd worn
ourselves out on wrong guesses ("print the larger number", "no, compare the
two numbers" etc) he said "No, the very first thing you have to do is GET
THE FIRST NUMBER".  And he wrote on the blackboard "GET NUMBER1".  In PL/1,
"GET" is a perfectly acceptable verb, so we were "writing a program" (well,
he was writing it, but we were learning algorithmic thought at least)
without even noticing at first the issue of syntax.

I'm not saying I can understand APL as intuitively as REXX.  (Ok, I'm not
saying I can understand APL intuitively at all.)  But it makes a lot less
difference to me now than it did fifty years ago; I know that once I've
become familiar with a language, it'll seem pretty natural.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* By afflictions, God is spoiling us of what otherwise might have spoiled
us.  When he makes the world too hot for us to hold, we let it go.  -John
Powell */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 13:04

Well, it helps if the keywords from your native language mean the same as
they do in your native language. To say nothing of keywords like 77 and 88.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Bob Bridges 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:43 PM

Yeah, I saw that line too.  I don't know of ~any~ 3GL algorithmic languages
that are very "English-like", although I suppose it helps to have
recognizable words to program with, especially at first when you're not used
to programming.

(DYLAKOR touted DYL-280II as a 4GL, but IM-not-so-humble-O it simply isn't.
It is a very handy 3GL, but that's all.)

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 05:19

  1. The check's in the mail
  2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
  3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.


From: Gabe Goldberg [g...@gabegold.com]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM

Better article...

--
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

It's why I said "especially at first".  Once you get used to a language, it
makes little difference to you whether you write "ADDI RG5,LDL" or "ADD
LAMDA-LEVEL TO SUBTOT".  But when you're first learning a language, and
especially when you're learning your ~first~ language, yeah, it really
helps.

That PL/C teacher I had in college was pretty good at this.  "If you're
writing a program to compare two numbers and tell you which is larger,
what's the first thing you have to do?", he asked us.  After we'd worn
ourselves out on wrong guesses ("print the larger number", "no, compare the
two numbers" etc) he said "No, the very first thing you have to do is GET
THE FIRST NUMBER".  And he wrote on the blackboard "GET NUMBER1".  In PL/1,
"GET" is a perfectly acceptable verb, so we were "writing a program" (well,
he was writing it, but we were learning algorithmic thought at least)
without even noticing at first the issue of syntax.

I'm not saying I can understand APL as intuitively as REXX.  (Ok, I'm not
saying I can understand APL intuitively at all.)  But it makes a lot less
difference to me now than it did fifty years ago; I know that once I've
become familiar with a language, it'll seem pretty natural.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* By afflictions, God is spoiling us of what otherwise might have spoiled
us.  When he makes the world too hot for us to hold, we let it go.  -John
Powell */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 13:04

Well, it helps if the keywords from your native language mean the same as
they do in your native language. To say nothing of keywords like 77 and 88.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Bob Bridges 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:43 PM

Yeah, I saw that line too.  I don't know of ~any~ 3GL algorithmic languages
that are very "English-like", although I suppose it helps to have
recognizable words to program with, especially at first when you're not used
to programming.

(DYLAKOR touted DYL-280II as a 4GL, but IM-not-so-humble-O it simply isn't.
It is a very handy 3GL, but that's all.)

-Original Message-
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 05:19

  1. The check's in the mail
  2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
  3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.


From: Gabe Goldberg [g...@gabegold.com]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM

Better article...

--
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

Well, it helps if the keywords from your native language mean the same as they 
do in your native language. To say nothing of keywords like 77 and 88.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Yeah, I saw that line too.  I don't know of ~any~ 3GL algorithmic languages
that are very "English-like", although I suppose it helps to have
recognizable words to program with, especially at first when you're not used
to programming.

(DYLAKOR touted DYL-280II as a 4GL, but IM-not-so-humble-O it simply isn't.
It is a very handy 3GL, but that's all.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Now some of you are scratching your heads and wondering "How does a
person with an IQ higher than pastry get Super Glue in his ear and not know
it?"  But you parents out there are no doubt nodding your heads and saying
"It would not surprise me to learn that this man has a three-year-old son."
-Dave Barry, _Children May Be Hazardous to Your Health_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 05:19

  1. The check's in the mail
  2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
  3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Gabe Goldberg [g...@gabegold.com]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM

Better article...

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

Yeah, I saw that line too.  I don't know of ~any~ 3GL algorithmic languages
that are very "English-like", although I suppose it helps to have
recognizable words to program with, especially at first when you're not used
to programming.

(DYLAKOR touted DYL-280II as a 4GL, but IM-not-so-humble-O it simply isn't.
It is a very handy 3GL, but that's all.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Now some of you are scratching your heads and wondering "How does a
person with an IQ higher than pastry get Super Glue in his ear and not know
it?"  But you parents out there are no doubt nodding your heads and saying
"It would not surprise me to learn that this man has a three-year-old son."
-Dave Barry, _Children May Be Hazardous to Your Health_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 05:19

  1. The check's in the mail
  2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
  3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Gabe Goldberg [g...@gabegold.com]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM

Better article...

--
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

Sorry, senior moment. Honeywell was Gracie's competition (FACT is fiction), 
along with IBM (COMTRAN); she was UNIVAC (FLOW-MATIC et al. For the curious, 
all three are in wiki as

   COMTRAN
   FACT (computer language)
   FLOW-MATIC


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Seymour J Metz [sme...@gmu.edu]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 5:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

  1. The check's in the mail
  2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
  3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Gabe Goldberg [g...@gabegold.com]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Better article:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1WS3QYJYfnP2DtDF0oWjjWWd29wrIACPo7Jv8qErP37KH2YU-oj_mP4MIa3_GUWnvdOkdUu9I59ceucR3wV3ILN4tnRsmpZ_SI_gNpSD1ZkHXfzI2mO2VTlI9izR9AKWDqx-6gJbfzMYMEXUjwVe11FQPoDaL8rgLihTlnDxq3e8N3uQQx-JjTWTZhY00TVYzVZw8Z1tHNP9XNdskDaPLJ4MUiLmta49XjzkZxD3xtRZ8cztoawV6SkzI1F8gXcy_7LiliRCJBOUAoiCqvl9Jly78RBm2-I0GCpaa9krfLOC1M_OQnNxL_9zsQDBNacx78xNPKVfuwoZs_S0Bl-Xe24b91QGHb4ilZj1u06Beo41IoSuoKrO4zuCgTIcwFWMIIO74wKuK9FBaPVWOSe-vtoZk4VlR2pVG-csyVvRxKHiWfUbIYOmWe2dZBhA9X-vs/https%3A%2F%2Ffreedomafterthesharks.com%2F2016%2F06%2F27%2Fexactly-what-is-cobol-and-why-is-cobol-still-a-widely-used-language-in-it%2F

Phil Smith III  said:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ws2nq7FZaLATgHXKdcqlCsweBaKqq3M3yjVxXL9Zj19fSxJEsxjRkXTvQZrxcn1RBwvnW3oOijBt15dWepkXUZ91VhtPJ_kw35_0x50HFLLNggAO2PAkVn9DjUwM5IvyK1wyef0rBHhqpfSwSW4SgBPwpKESADnS5SyWCgcVyrmIAEyZL1ufTkNmHA73wl2HDVq88qRFGS4HHk_6qv8P9bF4ixbQBV6J7P5v5KxIH9sNEQeOFu5BWYH9R4IzrjG9eQO_UtNQH9cvOrEov_XuQKq1E_KRuo8JPOk5fPP3PEZkoYwyVDUSZ5d-NAOOeGyj3rngcvukV40A773jW6FF3DTmRM42hNNN2X0_jWhRWBm-aAm9RaWzRmX8F3yKb0ORCXz1Eki6DzV501QrFWC5K2vxHJX8pkSQsvbvL_LPLKrWsfkoYQKTxIoJhp4MYBug0ACN4A3D-OwkE55ifYaoBg/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus


Reasonably bad article but kinda funny/ironic/something.

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc.   g...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042   (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegoldTwitter: GabeG0

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

  1. The check's in the mail
  2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
  3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Gabe Goldberg [g...@gabegold.com]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Better article:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1WS3QYJYfnP2DtDF0oWjjWWd29wrIACPo7Jv8qErP37KH2YU-oj_mP4MIa3_GUWnvdOkdUu9I59ceucR3wV3ILN4tnRsmpZ_SI_gNpSD1ZkHXfzI2mO2VTlI9izR9AKWDqx-6gJbfzMYMEXUjwVe11FQPoDaL8rgLihTlnDxq3e8N3uQQx-JjTWTZhY00TVYzVZw8Z1tHNP9XNdskDaPLJ4MUiLmta49XjzkZxD3xtRZ8cztoawV6SkzI1F8gXcy_7LiliRCJBOUAoiCqvl9Jly78RBm2-I0GCpaa9krfLOC1M_OQnNxL_9zsQDBNacx78xNPKVfuwoZs_S0Bl-Xe24b91QGHb4ilZj1u06Beo41IoSuoKrO4zuCgTIcwFWMIIO74wKuK9FBaPVWOSe-vtoZk4VlR2pVG-csyVvRxKHiWfUbIYOmWe2dZBhA9X-vs/https%3A%2F%2Ffreedomafterthesharks.com%2F2016%2F06%2F27%2Fexactly-what-is-cobol-and-why-is-cobol-still-a-widely-used-language-in-it%2F

Phil Smith III  said:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ws2nq7FZaLATgHXKdcqlCsweBaKqq3M3yjVxXL9Zj19fSxJEsxjRkXTvQZrxcn1RBwvnW3oOijBt15dWepkXUZ91VhtPJ_kw35_0x50HFLLNggAO2PAkVn9DjUwM5IvyK1wyef0rBHhqpfSwSW4SgBPwpKESADnS5SyWCgcVyrmIAEyZL1ufTkNmHA73wl2HDVq88qRFGS4HHk_6qv8P9bF4ixbQBV6J7P5v5KxIH9sNEQeOFu5BWYH9R4IzrjG9eQO_UtNQH9cvOrEov_XuQKq1E_KRuo8JPOk5fPP3PEZkoYwyVDUSZ5d-NAOOeGyj3rngcvukV40A773jW6FF3DTmRM42hNNN2X0_jWhRWBm-aAm9RaWzRmX8F3yKb0ORCXz1Eki6DzV501QrFWC5K2vxHJX8pkSQsvbvL_LPLKrWsfkoYQKTxIoJhp4MYBug0ACN4A3D-OwkE55ifYaoBg/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus


Reasonably bad article but kinda funny/ironic/something.

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc.   g...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042   (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegoldTwitter: GabeG0

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[ITschak Mugzach]

Believe it or not, Leipzig university (Germany) does teach cobol and
mainframe. They even got one.

ITschak

בתאריך יום ב׳, 6 באפר׳ 2020, 0:54, מאת Bob Bridges ‏:

> Ok, I was going to resist the temptation, but what the heck.  Some of you
> may remember this joke from 20 years ago:
>
> Jack was a COBOL programmer in the late 1990s who (after years of being
> taken for granted and treated as a technological dinosaur by all the UNIX
> programmers and Client/Server programmers and website developers, etc) was
> finally getting some respect.  You see, he'd become a private consultant
> specializing in Year-2000 conversions.  He was working short-term
> assignments for prestigious companies, traveling all over the world on
> different assignments.  He was working 70- and 80- and even 90-hour weeks,
> but it was worth it.
>
> However, several years of this relentless, mind-numbing work had taken its
> toll on Jack.  He had problems sleeping and began having anxiety dreams
> about the year 2000.  It had reached a point where even the thought of the
> year 2000 made him nearly violent.  He must have suffered some sort of
> breakdown, because all he could think about was how he could avoid the year
> 2000 and all that came with it.
>
> By the end of 1997 Jack had decided to contact a company that specialized
> in cryogenics.  He made a deal to have himself frozen until 2001 through
> their totally automated (and very expensive) process.  He was thrilled.
> The next thing he would know, he'd wake up in the year 2001 -- after the
> New Year celebrations and computer debacles, after the leap year, and after
> the dust had settled. Nothing else to worry about except getting on with
> his life.
>
> He was put into his cryogenic receptacle, the technicians set the revive
> date, he was given injections to slow his heartbeat to a bare minimum, and
> that was that.
>
> The next thing Jack saw was an enormous and very modern room filled with
> excited people.  They were all shouting "I can't believe it!" and "It's a
> miracle" and "He's alive!".  There were cameras (unlike any he'd ever seen)
> and equipment that looked like it came out of a science fiction movie.
>
> Someone who was obviously a spokesperson for the group stepped forward.
> Jack couldn't contain his enthusiasm.  "It's over?" he asked.  "Is 2001
> already here?  Are all the millennial parties and promotions and crises all
> over and done with?"
>
> The spokesman explained that there had been a problem with the programming
> of the timer on Jack's cryogenic receptacle.  It hadn't been year-2000
> compliant; it was actually 8000 years later, not the year 2001.  But the
> spokesman told Jack that he shouldn't get excited; someone important wanted
> to speak to him.
>
> Suddenly a wall-sized projection screen displayed the image of a man that
> had a striking resemblance to Bill Gates.  This man was Prime Minister of
> Earth.  He told Jack not to be upset.  That this was a wonderful time to be
> alive.  That there was world peace and no more starvation.  That the space
> program had been reïnstated and there were colonies on the moon and on
> Mars.  That technology had advanced to such a degree that everyone had
> virtual-reality interfaces that allowed them to contact anyone else on the
> planet, or to watch any entertainment, or to hear any music recorded
> anywhere.
>
> "That sounds terrific," said Jack. "But I'm curious:  Why is everybody so
> interested in me?"
>
> "Well," said the Prime Minister.  "The year 10 000 is just around the
> corner, and it says in your files you know COBOL..."
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.  -Voltaire
> */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Gerhard adam
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 16:13
>
> COBOL is not taught because those that know it can make a much
> better living using it than teaching college classes to people that believe
> it is “dead”
> Of course the latter opinion is stupid on the face of it.  After all, how
> does one replace systems that are not understood?  From scratch?  LOL
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Gabe Goldberg]

Better article:

https://freedomafterthesharks.com/2016/06/27/exactly-what-is-cobol-and-why-is-cobol-still-a-widely-used-language-in-it/

Phil Smith III  said:

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus 



Reasonably bad article but kinda funny/ironic/something.

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc.   g...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042   (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegoldTwitter: GabeG0

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Mike Schwab]

Cobol IMS TELON job is paying 59-100K/year in Springfield IL, kind of
a low wage.

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 2:09 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
> universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
> $55 to $85 an hour".
>
> I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
> rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
> them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
> entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
> would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
> My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
> guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
> courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
> students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
> did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
> couldn't drum up any interest.
>
> The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
> trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
> they'd have someone they could hire later.
>
> COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
> apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
>
> Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
> since I got into the security side.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* D'you call life a bad job?  Never!  We've had our ups and downs, we've
> had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
> it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children.  -from _Of Human
> Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23
>
> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav
> irus
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

IMHO they don't teach theory, they teach language du jour. We'd all be better 
off if they exposed students to a variety of radically different languages 
instead of just what's popular.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Thompson [ste...@copper.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 4:06 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, 
they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as 
C++ or Java online(?).

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) 
relative to COBOL — I believe it.

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct 
mistaks


> On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
> universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
> $55 to $85 an hour".
>
> I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
> rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
> them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
> entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
> would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
> My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
> guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
> courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
> students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
> did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
> couldn't drum up any interest.
>
> The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
> trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
> they'd have someone they could hire later.
>
> COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
> apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
>
> Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
> since I got into the security side.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* D'you call life a bad job?  Never!  We've had our ups and downs, we've
> had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
> it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children.  -from _Of Human
> Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1XBIGE5nZo-z8xX0htDr6UoKYQJpu3Ft_lejshGGbWoYmhFCUILU5g_liTKCTKs4XRgdStpOZuNfYTPKRD3gILqKpVurDQ6KGvLyo5grrC16nTmswwOok8Aq1weHJKYmh-IrSB1-psT6uxy_rJhUtvSUAPUjJylTzWTgNuJGQ_pULu39rFnm_CSxaEHtzHr2e5khasS3M3PB2GVMJ01jeEBwzDKG2qO452JhMPnDp2YiJIjCHHI82EEjsNMMGXxvku_AolOv5Og85TksKce4kiaE12X-5Ws1wavLw8elDVUKEct3rt-xqSugLsZheR-iqVufM701vFdY2LzfoDeHN5OPNyt4wVR8ukW_1eLIJVIrQn8SzYkmzFjU1MuW7jz8Se3ImNPOZPMF2DjGYwiQ-I4ExM4IKsfAtX7RjArX4zBXzRXfmLDK6GIVGSz3pUlCA9tl0CvTZ6iFM1XYm66Zzsw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

> Get Outlook for iOS

We hates it precious, we hates it. It's as user hostile as gmail.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Gerhard adam [gada...@charter.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 4:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

COBOL is not taught because those that know it can make a much better 
living using it than teaching college classes to people that believe it is 
“dead”
Of course the latter opinion is stupid on the face of it.  After all, how does 
one replace systems that are not understood?  From scratch?  LOL



Get Outlook for iOS






On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 1:07 PM -0700, "Steve Thompson"  
wrote:










I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, 
they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as 
C++ or Java online(?).

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) 
relative to COBOL — I believe it.

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct 
mistaks


> On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
> universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
> $55 to $85 an hour".
>
> I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
> rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
> them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
> entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
> would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
> My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
> guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
> courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
> students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
> did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
> couldn't drum up any interest.
>
> The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
> trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
> they'd have someone they could hire later.
>
> COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
> apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
>
> Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
> since I got into the security side.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* D'you call life a bad job?  Never!  We've had our ups and downs, we've
> had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
> it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children.  -from _Of Human
> Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1M9ftmpkgVBgkVKZCT47bIzso4G_xKkM8MjFBS_eUEMbNp5SK-_ffSToeqXVhwI21WS3OSJIpu9RJp53aOSuzlOlcJXQaFCkmJMFQnzmFQRQQbSCDsHq0NhLLJo79vYQl0oNORlwuWN2U9YtJ5xdCLpuDZ4w5695MxbIdfXW4Sm3uaJ6tkDQ1-wFXTVvvrZY_6EDtBBGQxASFRbVAKdqgCrh4-VILLsooz53R7VSbf27EqR4LsG37N_EbGsb0qdDvCwwmxPVZCr1TWQH6TP_UrMy5oOe6FQNLOuAsfU5UyFOelZyjKM-xg9DZ32b74lCe0XaQMZCH3wAB9RQFpD4jXI5vaw9fKcgX_toMcbuXZ1UjqN4cvfBI4pTtT-Oz0DwtaGeSV_7Un5Yl2I3iqQ1taPwj9kinAzpHAT1cJscAjIPbMaE07XHZEyCnbDSnRmcG5mEKAWSPBoMl15LaGeXHkQ/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

To be fair, "any piece can be plucked out and replaced without affecting 
anything else." if there is a rigidly defined interface and the replacement 
complies absolutely. Of course, IRL someone invariably gets "pragmatic" (i.e., 
sloppy) and the inevitable ensues. "Alpha testing? That's what end users are 
for."


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tony Thigpen [t...@vse2pdf.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 5:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Today's programmers consider programs "throw-away" just like everything
else. Hey also consider them multi-granular, where any piece can be
plucked out and replaced without affecting anything else. This is
derived from the OO programming model. (But, we know how models and
real-world differ. Just look at how everyone over-optimized relational
databases to the point of collapse. Sometimes 2NF, or even 1NF is better
than 3NF for speed.)

Talk to a younger programmer about a "system" of programs such as an
"A/P batch job" and they just can't grasp it.

It's not just the language not being taught, it's the "works with
others" (as in my program with your program) that is foreign to the kids.

Tony Thigpen

Gerhard adam wrote on 4/5/20 4:12 PM:
>
>
>
>
>   COBOL is not taught because those that know it can make a much better 
> living using it than teaching college classes to people that believe it is 
> “dead”
> Of course the latter opinion is stupid on the face of it.  After all, how 
> does one replace systems that are not understood?  From scratch?  LOL
>
>
>
>   Get Outlook for iOS
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 1:07 PM -0700, "Steve Thompson"  
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, 
> they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as 
> C++ or Java online(?).
>
> The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off 
> shore) relative to COBOL — I believe it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct 
> mistaks
>
>
>> On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
>>
>> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
>> universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
>> $55 to $85 an hour".
>>
>> I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
>> rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
>> them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
>> entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
>> would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
>> My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
>> guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
>> courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
>> students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
>> did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
>> couldn't drum up any interest.
>>
>> The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
>> trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
>> they'd have someone they could hire later.
>>
>> COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
>> apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
>>
>> Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
>> since I got into the security side.
>>
>> ---
>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>>
>> /* D'you call life a bad job?  Never!  We've had our ups and downs, we've
>> had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
>> it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children.  -from _Of Human
>> Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
>> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
>> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23
>>
>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1X7kY61h_eEnzKGqA-_zK-cXpeeNt3TaxOONP5UwnTWtZr9WFp14ma572jdSyxXvzzU7F1Tpx6MOBdzR

Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

Ok, I was going to resist the temptation, but what the heck.  Some of you may 
remember this joke from 20 years ago:

Jack was a COBOL programmer in the late 1990s who (after years of being taken 
for granted and treated as a technological dinosaur by all the UNIX programmers 
and Client/Server programmers and website developers, etc) was finally getting 
some respect.  You see, he'd become a private consultant specializing in 
Year-2000 conversions.  He was working short-term assignments for prestigious 
companies, traveling all over the world on different assignments.  He was 
working 70- and 80- and even 90-hour weeks, but it was worth it.

However, several years of this relentless, mind-numbing work had taken its toll 
on Jack.  He had problems sleeping and began having anxiety dreams about the 
year 2000.  It had reached a point where even the thought of the year 2000 made 
him nearly violent.  He must have suffered some sort of breakdown, because all 
he could think about was how he could avoid the year 2000 and all that came 
with it.

By the end of 1997 Jack had decided to contact a company that specialized in 
cryogenics.  He made a deal to have himself frozen until 2001 through their 
totally automated (and very expensive) process.  He was thrilled.  The next 
thing he would know, he'd wake up in the year 2001 -- after the New Year 
celebrations and computer debacles, after the leap year, and after the dust had 
settled. Nothing else to worry about except getting on with his life.

He was put into his cryogenic receptacle, the technicians set the revive date, 
he was given injections to slow his heartbeat to a bare minimum, and that was 
that.

The next thing Jack saw was an enormous and very modern room filled with 
excited people.  They were all shouting "I can't believe it!" and "It's a 
miracle" and "He's alive!".  There were cameras (unlike any he'd ever seen) and 
equipment that looked like it came out of a science fiction movie.

Someone who was obviously a spokesperson for the group stepped forward.  Jack 
couldn't contain his enthusiasm.  "It's over?" he asked.  "Is 2001 already 
here?  Are all the millennial parties and promotions and crises all over and 
done with?"

The spokesman explained that there had been a problem with the programming of 
the timer on Jack's cryogenic receptacle.  It hadn't been year-2000 compliant; 
it was actually 8000 years later, not the year 2001.  But the spokesman told 
Jack that he shouldn't get excited; someone important wanted to speak to him.

Suddenly a wall-sized projection screen displayed the image of a man that had a 
striking resemblance to Bill Gates.  This man was Prime Minister of Earth.  He 
told Jack not to be upset.  That this was a wonderful time to be alive.  That 
there was world peace and no more starvation.  That the space program had been 
reïnstated and there were colonies on the moon and on Mars.  That technology 
had advanced to such a degree that everyone had virtual-reality interfaces that 
allowed them to contact anyone else on the planet, or to watch any 
entertainment, or to hear any music recorded anywhere.

"That sounds terrific," said Jack. "But I'm curious:  Why is everybody so 
interested in me?"

"Well," said the Prime Minister.  "The year 10 000 is just around the corner, 
and it says in your files you know COBOL..."

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.  -Voltaire */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Gerhard adam
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 16:13

COBOL is not taught because those that know it can make a much better 
living using it than teaching college classes to people that believe it is 
“dead”
Of course the latter opinion is stupid on the face of it.  After all, how does 
one replace systems that are not understood?  From scratch?  LOL

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[scott Ford]

Tony,

Also the Agile framework and not the Waterfall model of SDLC. I have used
both
written Cobol and Assembler in both. My impression is everyone is ‘hurrying
up and rushing code’.  If your code is very modularized then I feel AGile
is ok.

Scott

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 5:42 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> That may be true to some extent.  I haven't been to college (not counting
> working at one) in decades.  But back then I was getting a degree in
> Accounting, and took ONE CLASS in programming - sounded boring, but I
> figured I should know something about computers.  I was immediately
> hooked.  We wrote a program in PL/C (on the blackboard) the very first day,
> and I never looked back.  Three or four or six weeks later I talked to a
> student who was taking COBOL; they hadn't been allowed to touch a cardpunch
> yet, and were just learning about the theory of loops.  I had much the
> better teacher, God bless him!
>
> By the way, Steve, I enjoyed your tagline :).
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Beware of any Christian leader who does not walk with a limp.  -Bob
> Mumford */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 16:07
>
> I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach
> languages, they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented
> language such as C++ or Java online(?).
>
> The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off
> shore) relative to COBOL — I believe it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr.
> Expct mistaks
>
> > --- On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges 
> wrote:
> > Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
> > universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
> > $55 to $85 an hour".
> >
> > I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
> > rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
> > them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was
> not
> > entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out
> what it
> > would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe
> somewhere.
> > My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an
> IBM
> > guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
> > courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
> > students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
> > did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years,
> but
> > couldn't drum up any interest.
> >
> > The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for
> mainframe
> > trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves,
> just so
> > they'd have someone they could hire later.
> >
> > COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
> > apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
> >
> > Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
> > since I got into the security side.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
-- 
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

That may be true to some extent.  I haven't been to college (not counting 
working at one) in decades.  But back then I was getting a degree in 
Accounting, and took ONE CLASS in programming - sounded boring, but I figured I 
should know something about computers.  I was immediately hooked.  We wrote a 
program in PL/C (on the blackboard) the very first day, and I never looked 
back.  Three or four or six weeks later I talked to a student who was taking 
COBOL; they hadn't been allowed to touch a cardpunch yet, and were just 
learning about the theory of loops.  I had much the better teacher, God bless 
him!

By the way, Steve, I enjoyed your tagline :).

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Beware of any Christian leader who does not walk with a limp.  -Bob Mumford 
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 16:07

I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, 
they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as 
C++ or Java online(?). 

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) 
relative to COBOL — I believe it. 

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct 
mistaks 

> --- On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
> universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
> $55 to $85 an hour".
> 
> I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
> rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
> them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
> entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
> would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
> My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
> guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
> courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
> students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
> did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
> couldn't drum up any interest.
> 
> The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
> trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
> they'd have someone they could hire later.
> 
> COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
> apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
> 
> Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
> since I got into the security side.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Tony Thigpen]

Today's programmers consider programs "throw-away" just like everything 
else. Hey also consider them multi-granular, where any piece can be 
plucked out and replaced without affecting anything else. This is 
derived from the OO programming model. (But, we know how models and 
real-world differ. Just look at how everyone over-optimized relational 
databases to the point of collapse. Sometimes 2NF, or even 1NF is better 
than 3NF for speed.)


Talk to a younger programmer about a "system" of programs such as an 
"A/P batch job" and they just can't grasp it.


It's not just the language not being taught, it's the "works with 
others" (as in my program with your program) that is foreign to the kids.


Tony Thigpen

Gerhard adam wrote on 4/5/20 4:12 PM:
   
   
   
 
 	COBOL is not taught because those that know it can make a much better living using it than teaching college classes to people that believe it is “dead”

Of course the latter opinion is stupid on the face of it.  After all, how does 
one replace systems that are not understood?  From scratch?  LOL



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On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 1:07 PM -0700, "Steve Thompson"  
wrote:










I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, 
they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as 
C++ or Java online(?).

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) 
relative to COBOL — I believe it.

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct 
mistaks



On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:

Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
$55 to $85 an hour".

I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
couldn't drum up any interest.

The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
they'd have someone they could hire later.

COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.

Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
since I got into the security side.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* D'you call life a bad job?  Never!  We've had our ups and downs, we've
had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children.  -from _Of Human
Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Gerhard adam]

  
  
  

COBOL is not taught because those that know it can make a much better 
living using it than teaching college classes to people that believe it is 
“dead”
Of course the latter opinion is stupid on the face of it.  After all, how does 
one replace systems that are not understood?  From scratch?  LOL



Get Outlook for iOS

  




On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 1:07 PM -0700, "Steve Thompson"  
wrote:










I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, 
they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as 
C++ or Java online(?). 

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) 
relative to COBOL — I believe it. 

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct 
mistaks 


> On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> 
> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
> universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
> $55 to $85 an hour".
> 
> I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
> rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
> them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
> entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
> would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
> My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
> guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
> courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
> students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
> did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
> couldn't drum up any interest.
> 
> The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
> trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
> they'd have someone they could hire later.
> 
> COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
> apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
> 
> Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
> since I got into the security side.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* D'you call life a bad job?  Never!  We've had our ups and downs, we've
> had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
> it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children.  -from _Of Human
> Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23
> 
> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Steve Thompson]

I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, 
they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as 
C++ or Java online(?). 

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) 
relative to COBOL — I believe it. 

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct 
mistaks 


> On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:
> 
> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
> universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
> $55 to $85 an hour".
> 
> I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
> rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
> them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
> entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
> would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
> My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
> guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
> courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
> students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
> did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
> couldn't drum up any interest.
> 
> The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
> trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
> they'd have someone they could hire later.
> 
> COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
> apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
> 
> Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
> since I got into the security side.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* D'you call life a bad job?  Never!  We've had our ups and downs, we've
> had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
> it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children.  -from _Of Human
> Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23
> 
> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
$55 to $85 an hour".

I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
entirely wrong).  For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son.  I
did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
couldn't drum up any interest.

The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
they'd have someone they could hire later.

COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.

Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
since I got into the security side.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* D'you call life a bad job?  Never!  We've had our ups and downs, we've
had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children.  -from _Of Human
Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav
irus

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Wayne Bickerdike]

A friend just taught a COBOL course here in Australia.  Some Oz banks and
government agencies are recruiting younger folks for such roles. Lots of
COBOL around. I wrote some COBOL in the past few days.  DB2 stored
procedure. Mow trying to get it working for Broadcom Datacom. Any one done
that? Fetch failed?


On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 01:07 Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Compare the picture with the text.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf
> of Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:22 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus
> Pandemic
>
>
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xXKX7E4-NdCI6zyhDl9OzEd7mdnEBOumRNE-3YKDQFSKa7p00k6Mf6fl1YxViRi4KDl5hKbKEmKXq_gmzeROsno64gZGNKT_YzTWbtIcnpyz63IWKe96ndfJIU42PineT-1XvY3pTGBW-3rur3j3EN6Q3kxsUOvCbgJ6Pka2yxnm7qejOZqaxbosRwee9RtGrue45sT6c9QYG9d0oatyccfaUVZdoXh6K_6Yi_jsXMTlE1Yj18srorA833K93wXFzBgguwNCdxxJ8T1ojGCjCziWPoXc62WbPJ1FkC_pYAEg5JWiZA46Nwgfkm6k9DpU7ZMhb06I4IKxURQkRWYvl0vX2RArc-QgVjTicP8XbwTY2fs7lGCG7V9dOF-QWx_CxzeMnSVadT43tHvFok_WUedeX2k15Ku5lM43OQ4f5bJy0kZCNWZO4JxmmKQSzCKIf_GRk_an5HH9Mor5YVqbwg/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus
>
>
>
> Reasonably bad article but kinda funny/ironic/something.
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

Compare the picture with the text.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xXKX7E4-NdCI6zyhDl9OzEd7mdnEBOumRNE-3YKDQFSKa7p00k6Mf6fl1YxViRi4KDl5hKbKEmKXq_gmzeROsno64gZGNKT_YzTWbtIcnpyz63IWKe96ndfJIU42PineT-1XvY3pTGBW-3rur3j3EN6Q3kxsUOvCbgJ6Pka2yxnm7qejOZqaxbosRwee9RtGrue45sT6c9QYG9d0oatyccfaUVZdoXh6K_6Yi_jsXMTlE1Yj18srorA833K93wXFzBgguwNCdxxJ8T1ojGCjCziWPoXc62WbPJ1FkC_pYAEg5JWiZA46Nwgfkm6k9DpU7ZMhb06I4IKxURQkRWYvl0vX2RArc-QgVjTicP8XbwTY2fs7lGCG7V9dOF-QWx_CxzeMnSVadT43tHvFok_WUedeX2k15Ku5lM43OQ4f5bJy0kZCNWZO4JxmmKQSzCKIf_GRk_an5HH9Mor5YVqbwg/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus



Reasonably bad article but kinda funny/ironic/something.


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New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus

 

Reasonably bad article but kinda funny/ironic/something.


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