Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
In caajsdjjjz6v3rufb62mkpsnn09ovl+wxmubizsxu0eoc1-k...@mail.gmail.com, on 01/21/2013 at 12:10 PM, John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com said: I could go for your last: limit SCP SCSI. Sorry; finger check. That should have been FCP SCSI. Which include z/OS UNIX filesystems by default because z/OS UNIX filesystems are implemented via VSAM LINEAR data sets. Well, zFS is, but the older HFS is not, although I believe that they all go through Media Manager. I would really like it if IBM z/OS development would do what VSE did long ago: make VSAM ESDS accessible via a QSAM interface. Yes! Also an RCI like OS/VS1 had. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
In of3704cbe6.221b8755-on48257afa.002a9c2b-48257afa.002b9...@sg.ibm.com, on 01/21/2013 at 03:55 PM, Timothy Sipples sipp...@sg.ibm.com said: I don't follow the logic. The logic is that the incremental cost was less for VSE because part of the work had been done decades earlier. The ease or difficulty of doing something is not measured when something isn't done. I'm referring to the incremental cost, not the total cost. All we can logically conclude was that it was easy enough for IBM to add that support to DOS when it did. No, we can logically conclude that the cost of adding SCSI support to the later code base did not include the work that had already been done for other reasons. It might indeed have been more difficult with MVS, But even if it would have been easier for MVS, what is relevant is that IBM didn't do so, so to add FCP SCSI support now IBM would have to either add FBA support or limit SCP SCSI to, e.g., Unix file systems. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
I could go for your last: limit SCP SCSI. But I would basically extend it to anything which is FBA compatible. That is basically all of VSAM. Which include z/OS UNIX filesystems by default because z/OS UNIX filesystems are implemented via VSAM LINEAR data sets. And, if that happened, I would really like it if IBM z/OS development would do what VSE did long ago: make VSAM ESDS accessible via a QSAM interface. They did that for ISAM programs long ago for VSAM KSDS data sets. On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote: In snip But even if it would have been easier for MVS, what is relevant is that IBM didn't do so, so to add FCP SCSI support now IBM would have to either add FBA support or limit SCP SCSI to, e.g., Unix file systems. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Maranatha! John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
In 9257440765146949.wa.alanaltmarkus.ibm@listserv.ua.edu, on 01/18/2013 at 12:59 PM, Alan Altmark alan_altm...@us.ibm.com said: I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm saying that IBM added FBA support to DOS way back in the 3310 and 3370 days; they didn't add it to MVS. That meant that adding SCSI to VSE was a lot easier than adding it to MVS would be. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
Shmuel Metz writes: I'm saying that IBM added FBA support to DOS way back in the 3310 and 3370 days; they didn't add it to MVS. That meant that adding SCSI to VSE was a lot easier than adding it to MVS would be. I don't follow the logic. The ease or difficulty of doing something is not measured when something isn't done. For example, it's probably easy for Apple to introduce iPhones in additional colors besides black and white, but Apple has not done so. It's probably very hard for Apple to introduce a fuel cell powered iPhone, and Apple has not done so. It really is easy for me to get some exercise today, but I haven't done it yet. All we can logically conclude was that it was easy enough for IBM to add that support to DOS when it did. It might indeed have been more difficult with MVS, but more information is required to know. Timothy Sipples Consulting Enterprise IT Architect (Based in Singapore) E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:26:58 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+...@patriot.net wrote: The original code base precedes FBA. Once they added FBA most of the work was done for FCP SCSI. I'm not sure what you're saying. MVS, VM, and VSE code bases *all* precede the invention of channel-attached FBA. They weren't engineered for use by MVS (e.g. originally no RESERVE/RELEASE), but it didn't matter since MVS wasn't engineered to accept device geometries that weren't based on (CYL, TRK, REC) addressing and allocation units. The CMS and CP file systems are based on fixed-size blocks, hiding the device geometry. Further, all usage by CP and CMS is on cylinder boundaries. So from both an application and dasd management perspective, FBA didn't present a huge problem for the people and programs involved. But adding SCSI device drivers was a Big Deal, requiring a lot of heavy lifting, and introducing a lot of new configuration and terminology (WWPN, LUN, NPIV) into the host OS. In VM, you either give the guest direct access to an HBA and let the guest talk to the device, or you use EDEVICEs, wherein CP will emulate FBA minidisks on SCSI LUNs. More interesting, I think, are the cultural barriers to SCSI, particularly with z/OS. When you use SCSI, you (the sysprog) typically don't own or manage the storage. It isn't typically directly plugged into your z box, but is part of a storage area network (SAN) with its own connectivity, performance, security, and recovery technologies (e.g. no IOP-managed multipathing) and management endpoints. You are beholden to and dependent on other admins in other lines of management. I have to say that this doesn't sit will with many mainframe shops that have been bastions of glass-house self-sufficiency for generations. And the consultants have to scramble, too, since all the rules of thumb change. Folks like to look for cheaper dasd, and I don't blame them, but I have to say 'be careful what you wish for.' :-) Alan Altmark IBM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
alan_altm...@us.ibm.com (Alan Altmark) writes: I'm not sure what you're saying. MVS, VM, and VSE code bases *all* precede the invention of channel-attached FBA. They weren't engineered for use by MVS (e.g. originally no RESERVE/RELEASE), but it didn't matter since MVS wasn't engineered to accept device geometries that weren't based on (CYL, TRK, REC) addressing and allocation units. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#30 Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives CP/CMS used ckd search paradigm as if it was fixed-block ... so when real FBA came along, it was trivial to remap to fixed-block. Note that a lot of CP/CMS had heavy influence from MIT CTSS/7094 ... which predated 360 CKD. ctss reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatible_Time-Sharing_System aka some number of the CTSS people went to the 5th flr to do Multics and others went to the IBM science center on the 4th flr and did virtual machines, internal network, bunch of other stuff. misc. past posts http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech OS/360 made heavy use of CKD multi-track search especially for vtoc and pds directories. I've frequently pontificated it was mid-60s trade-off between real-storage to maintain the information and channel/controller/device resource to perform the search outboard and the trade-off had inverted by the mid-70s; I would even get called into OS/VS2 multi-system accounts that were experiencing serious throughput problems because of the heavy used of multi-track search ... recent post about getting called into large national retailer ... after all the usual POK experts had been tried http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#25 I've also periodically mentioned that I was told that even if I provided MVS with integrated and fully-tested FBA support ... that I still needed to show a $26M business case to cover education, documentation, training ... basically several hundred million dollars in incremental FBA disk sales ... and specifically could not use total total lifecycle savings ... and by-the-way ... customers were buying disks as fast as they could be produced ... so any FBA support would result in just changing from CKD sales to FBA sales ... not incremental new sales. This is despite the fact that all DASD was heading in the direction of FBA ... furthermore real CKD hasn't been manufactured in decades ... and just getting initial ECKD hardware working (to pickup a little of FBA benefit) cost on par with what they quoted me for MVS FBA support. misc. past posts mentioning CKD, FBA, multi-track search, etc http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#dasd Of course, I've had somewhat similar encounter in the early 90s over fiber-channel support ... I had been asked in the 80s to help LLNL standardize some serial stuff that they had that eventually morphs into FCS in the early 90s. Then some POK channel engineers get involved and layered some heavy-weight stuff on-top of FCS that eventually becomes FICON ... and enormously reduces throughput ... compared to the native/underlying FCS throughput. recent post discussing fcs, ficon, z196 max i/o benchmark http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#10 From build to buy: American Airlines changes modernization course midflight -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
In m34nihuf9u@garlic.com, on 01/16/2013 at 01:57 PM, Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.com said: beatt...@uk.ibm.com (Malcolm Beattie) writes: z/VSE has supported FCP SCSI for a good while now (since 3.1). a lot easier for any mainframe system that originally provided FBA support The original code base precedes FBA. Once they added FBA most of the work was done for FCP SCSI. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
In caajsdjgbcgw_ixo_pniycd82hkxopqzx2ejjxjqyhj54fep...@mail.gmail.com, on 01/16/2013 at 01:15 PM, John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com said: Yea. and the only supported thing that I can think of which requires ECKD is BPAM for PDS. Oh, and NIP for SYS1.NUCLEUS mainly I believe. IEAIPL00. FWIW, TSS/360 used page-formatted volumes, including VPAM. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
W dniu 2013-01-16 12:46, Miklos Szigetvari pisze: Hi We are searching for DASD alternatives. If someone has a suggestion or good experience. Use tapes ;-))) But seriously: do you mean alternative (cheap) dasd? Go for second-hand boxes. BTDT. It could be even cheaper than tape (media, without drives). -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2013 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.555.904 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
Hi We have till now zDASD as primary DISK storage, we are searching for something else. (of course cheap, fast, reliable, with good support ) On 16.01.2013 12:55, R.S. wrote: W dniu 2013-01-16 12:46, Miklos Szigetvari pisze: Hi We are searching for DASD alternatives. If someone has a suggestion or good experience. Use tapes ;-))) But seriously: do you mean alternative (cheap) dasd? Go for second-hand boxes. BTDT. It could be even cheaper than tape (media, without drives). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
W dniu 2013-01-16 13:01, Miklos Szigetvari pisze: Hi We have till now zDASD as primary DISK storage, we are searching for something else. (of course cheap, fast, reliable, with good support ) zDASD is closed option AFAIK, EMC bought BusTech and don't want internal competition to VMAXes. BTW: You can still buy it as MDL, it works only with EMC storage, only as a tape emulation. Alternatives? Luminex has competitive product, some time ago InterKom Gmbh also produced similar appliance. IBM - DS8000, midrange DS6000 EMC - VMAX family HDS - VSP and midrange AMS, HP - VSP with other name (XPn) STK/Sun/Oracle - do they still sell SVA ? again: second hand market. With service if you want. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2013 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.555.904 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
Hi Thank you Radoslav. We will evaluate this. On 16.01.2013 13:08, R.S. wrote: W dniu 2013-01-16 13:01, Miklos Szigetvari pisze: Hi We have till now zDASD as primary DISK storage, we are searching for something else. (of course cheap, fast, reliable, with good support ) zDASD is closed option AFAIK, EMC bought BusTech and don't want internal competition to VMAXes. BTW: You can still buy it as MDL, it works only with EMC storage, only as a tape emulation. Alternatives? Luminex has competitive product, some time ago InterKom Gmbh also produced similar appliance. IBM - DS8000, midrange DS6000 EMC - VMAX family HDS - VSP and midrange AMS, HP - VSP with other name (XPn) STK/Sun/Oracle - do they still sell SVA ? again: second hand market. With service if you want. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
snip STK/Sun/Oracle - do they still sell SVA ? /snip AFAIK, STK/SUN/ORACLE have exited the DASD business. The boxes were Hitachi under the covers. Shortly after Oracle bought Sun, they terminated the reseller agreement w/Hitachi HTH, -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
Ficon or Escon attached? There are a number of vendors who make Escon attached control units which emulate 3390 disks on normal Enterprise PC type back end drives. I don't know of any which are Ficon attached. A product called MFNetDisk implements a 3390 (and 3490) emulation on disk attached to a PC via TCP/IP. The vendor has posted here about it. I've never used it. More info at http://www.mfnetdisk.com/site/index-4.asp?depart_id=43973 It is z/OS only. And it _ supplements_ normal DASD, because you cannot IPL from it. You need TCPIP up before you can get the emulated drives on line. Also, if you are running z/VM and z/Linux only, then you can attach normal SAN DASD as SCSI via an FCP channel (modified Ficon, basically). This does not work for z/OS, z/VSE, or z/TPF, not even if they are run under z/VM. On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:46 AM, Miklos Szigetvari miklos.szigetv...@isis-papyrus.com wrote: Hi We are searching for DASD alternatives. If someone has a suggestion or good experience. Till now we have zDASD -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Maranatha! John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Searching for storage (DASD) alternatives
John McKown writes: Also, if you are running z/VM and z/Linux only, then you can attach normal SAN DASD as SCSI via an FCP channel (modified Ficon, basically). This does not work for z/OS, z/VSE, or z/TPF, not even if they are run under z/VM. z/VSE has supported FCP SCSI for a good while now (since 3.1). --Malcolm -- Malcolm Beattie Linux and System z Technical Consultant Mainframe Systems and Software Business, IBM Europe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
