In 20131222125014.GB23307@dlc-dt, on 12/22/2013
at 07:50 AM, David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com said:
And don't come back with real MVS programmers don't need to debug
their code. ;-)
I'd be the last person to make, or defend, such a statement.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and
In e1odb9ptb08f9rl26d93uugpu47jd9v...@4ax.com, on 12/22/2013
at 08:52 AM, Clark Morris cfmpub...@ns.sympatico.ca said:
Also 48 bits on the Honeywell 800 and Burroughs B5000.
Yes, and several others, for one of which I used to have lust in my
heart.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg
change
that. /end extract
and of course it does 'change that'.
Not even close. There is no use of hexadecimal arithmetic in a 7909.
posturing;
PKB.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html
We don't care. We don't
Ye Gods, I work for Hitachi. Should I leave the list?
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 11:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] hexadecimal?
Btw
On 13Dec21:2313-0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
In 20131210023525.GC6157@dlc-dt, on 12/09/2013
at 09:35 PM, David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com said:
Of course, real MVS programmers use STARTIO
Real MVS systems programmers understand the principle of least
privilege and don't
On 21 Dec 2013 19:17:56 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
In p06240401ceca853cbacd@[192.168.2.101], on 12/08/2013
at 03:27 PM, Robert A. Rosenberg hal9...@panix.com said:
Data in the computer is stored in 8-bit long bytes.
Data in a computer are stored in units dictated by the
48 bits + 2 tag bits on Telefunken TR 4 and TR 440.
Character size could be 6, 8 or 12 bits, as you liked.
There were different character sets.
12 was used for FORTRAN on this machine, because it
was best for compatibility with other FORTRANS (4 chars = 1 integer).
In fact only 8 of the 12 bits
Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 11:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] hexadecimal?
Btw this isn't a Amdahl forum, it's IBM...
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom
In
cae1xxdf_d59y7eufat1xw5b5omgtwrxhvxojwn9qeefgmzb...@mail.gmail.com,
on 12/08/2013
at 01:10 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said:
and I think we all sympathize with the point he is making. There
is, however, some real hexadecimal data around, beginning with its
use in IBM 7090 channel
In f9213c4c-fe34-4583-b15a-20ec14a55...@yahoo.com, on 12/08/2013
at 01:52 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said:
Huh .maybe you should back to computer basics ...at machine level
everything is binary
Silly wabbit, trits are for kids.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and
In
of8230a144.9ea02174-on88257c3c.006cea00-88257c3c.006d8...@sce.com,
on 12/09/2013
at 11:56 AM, Skip Robinson jo.skip.robin...@sce.com said:
Not sure what's meant by having to chain CCWs.
Read PoOps.
I just finished updating an old RYO program that writes 80 byte
records to any device
In p06240401ceca853cbacd@[192.168.2.101], on 12/08/2013
at 03:27 PM, Robert A. Rosenberg hal9...@panix.com said:
Data in the computer is stored in 8-bit long bytes.
Data in a computer are stored in units dictated by the architecture.
For the S/360 it's 8-bit[1] bytes. I've seen word sizes of
In 9820584016396110.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu, on
12/08/2013
at 08:25 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
(The last is the maximum supported by channel programs, or was.)
2^16 is a limitation on a single CCW; it is not a limitation on a CCW
chain, and data chaining goes
In 20131210023525.GC6157@dlc-dt, on 12/09/2013
at 09:35 PM, David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com said:
Of course, real MVS programmers use STARTIO
Real MVS systems programmers understand the principle of least
privilege and don't write AC(1) code unless it confers an advantage of
some sort. In
Skip Robinson wrote:
Not sure what's meant by having to chain CCWs. I just finished updating an
old RYO program that writes 80 byte records to any device specified
because I needed to test 32K blocks on tape. I merely added a DCBE with
BLKSIZE=0 and pointed to it in the existing DCB. No other
John,
I recall the same my knowledge is old..over 20 yrs working on VSE
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
On Dec 10, 2013, at 10:59 AM, John Eells ee...@us.ibm.com wrote:
Skip Robinson wrote:
Not sure what's meant by having to chain
the
sustainable data transfer rate might have improved to where it would take less
than one day to complete.
Bill Fairchild
- Original Message -
From: Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 7:21:53 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
On 9
: David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 8:35:25 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
On 13Dec09:1528-0500, Gerhard Postpischil wrote:
On 12/9/2013 2:56 PM, Skip Robinson wrote:
2) That's a shame. Every programmer can benefit from familiarity
.
From: DASDBILL2 dasdbi...@comcast.net
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
I Totally agree with using PCI to implement this insane channel program, which,
if it could honk through 2,000 tracks per second
@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 8:35:25 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
On 13Dec09:1528-0500, Gerhard Postpischil wrote:
On 12/9/2013 2:56 PM, Skip Robinson wrote:
2) That's a shame. Every programmer can benefit from familiarity
with the hardware - write a test program using
Warren how's your new job
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Warren Brown
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
In the 70s 'TCAM' it used PCI to function
Old SHARE proceedings are online.
Bill Fairchld
- Original Message -
From: Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:41:30 AM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
Bill,
I haven't been fortunate enough to go to Share..I wish
: Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:41:30 AM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
Bill,
I haven't been fortunate enough to go to Share..I wish
--
For IBM-MAIN
Everybody please quiesce the road rage.
Circuits work in voltages.
Bill Fairchld
Franklin, TN
- Original Message -
From: Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 1:28:10 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
What do circuits work
been able... etc. (since transfer mode
channel programs have no CCWs in them).
Bill Fairchild
Franklin, TN
- Original Message -
From: Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 8:25:50 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
On Sun, 8
Franklin, TN
- Original Message -
From: Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 1:28:10 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
What do circuits work in ...
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite
Fairchld
Franklin, TN
- Original Message -
From: Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 1:28:10 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
What do circuits work in ...
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
Fairchild
Franklin, TN
- Original Message -
From: Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 8:25:50 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 20:01:20 -0600, Joel C. Ewing wrote:
If the real requirement
gerh...@valley.net (Gerhard Postpischil) writes:
I think you misread his message, which started with command
chaining. But I would be interested in which control units and
controllers allow data chaining beyond 65KiB.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013o.html#6 hexadecimal
note a lot
...@syncsort.com
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Gerhard Postpischil
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 12:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
On 12/9/2013 11:53 AM, Scott Ford wrote:
Bill,
I thought
323-715-0595 Mobile
jo.skip.robin...@sce.com
From: Blaicher, Christopher Y. cblaic...@syncsort.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU,
Date: 12/09/2013 10:31 AM
Subject:Re: hexadecimal?
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Tape devices for BLKSIZE
On 12/9/2013 2:56 PM, Skip Robinson wrote:
Not sure what's meant by having to chain CCWs. I just finished updating an
old RYO program that writes 80 byte records to any device specified
because I needed to test 32K blocks on tape. I merely added a DCBE with
BLKSIZE=0 and pointed to it in the
need a
lot of real storage and billions of CCWs, but it's theoretically possible.
Bill Fairchild
- Original Message -
From: Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 10:53:03 AM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
Bill,
I thought you could
The only EXCP that I every wrote as at my first job. It read cards from an
actual card reader and would do a select output tray (sorry don't
remember actual terminology) based on whether the card in question passed
initial validation testing. So that the bad cards could be gathered up
and sent
Fairchild
- Original Message -
From: Gerhard Postpischil gerh...@valley.net
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 11:53:52 AM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
On 12/9/2013 11:53 AM, Scott Ford wrote:
Bill,
I thought you could chain ccws
I think you misread
/2013o.html#6 hexadecimal?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013o.html#10 hexadecimal?
aka MVT thinking it ran real memory, EXCP could just tic to the passed
channel program ... cp67vm370 has to make a copy of the virtual machine
channel program that accounts for virtual pages that aren't contiguous
in real
Robinson
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 2:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
Not sure what's meant by having to chain CCWs. I just finished updating an old
RYO program that writes 80 byte records to any device specified because I
needed to test 32K blocks on tape. I merely
.
Harry
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 20:30:17 +
From: dasdbi...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
In a command channel program, you can chain any number of CCWs together, each
of which can possibly transfer up to X'' bytes. It's theoretically
possible
@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 4:41:21 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
You would need a lot of real storage and billions of CCWs, but it's
theoretically possible.
You wouldn't need billions of CCWs, you could use the READ MULTIPLE CKD
command (X'5E') or the READ TRACK command (X'DE
On 9 December 2013 18:04, DASDBILL2 dasdbi...@comcast.net wrote:
My phrase billions of CCWs was assuming you already knew how to read a full
track with only one CCW. A fully
populated EAV can have 16 to the 7th power cylinders and each cylinder can
have 15 tracks. One Read Track CCW
(and
://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013o.html#6 hexadecimal?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013o.html#10 hexadecimal?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013o.html#12 hexadecimal?
with the advent of virtual memory and EXCP no longer executing the
passed channel program ... but a copied that had been swizzled
(replacing
On 13Dec09:1528-0500, Gerhard Postpischil wrote:
On 12/9/2013 2:56 PM, Skip Robinson wrote:
2) That's a shame. Every programmer can benefit from familiarity
with the hardware - write a test program using EXCP to read a
multi-volume tape, or use XDAP to read a multi-volume DASD data set
-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: hexadecimal?
From:
Title: z/OS V1R13.0 DFSMSdfp Advanced Services
Document Number: SC26-7400-14
... that I was reading lately:
7.5.3.1 TRKCALC--Standard Form
...
DD=addr--RX-type address, (2-12), (0), (14), or n
You can specify either
Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 2:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: hexadecimal?
From:
Title: z/OS V1R13.0 DFSMSdfp Advanced Services
Document Number: SC26-7400-14
Charles Mills wrote
| Hex is not a kind of data.
and I think we all sympathize with the point he is making. There is,
however, some real hexadecimal data around, beginning with its use in
IBM 7090 channel programming. For the System/360 and its sequelæ the
exponent of an HFP number
On 12/8/2013 12:52 PM, John McKown wrote:
Agree. I have not checked, but will bat this is really a full word integer
binary number.
Minor nit - DD= specifies a halfword.
Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, Vermont
--
For IBM-MAIN
of
representing data. X'F1' is a clearer image in most
cases than 0001 or 241. All data is potentially
hex; that is, is representable in hex. That's the
beauty of hex.
I would not expect to read this on this maining list.
The original floating-point hardware of the S/360
architecture is hexadecimal
cases than 0001 or 241. All data is potentially
hex; that is, is representable in hex. That's the
beauty of hex.
I would not expect to read this on this maining list.
The original floating-point hardware of the S/360
architecture is hexadecimal, not binary. A normalized
value may have up
So , hexadecimal is not the same EBCDIC ?
From: David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: hexadecimal?
On 13Dec08:0942-0800, Charles Mills wrote:
It is a pet peeve of mine. People use
Hexadecimal is a readable system for binary, if the hex characters are not
numbers per se they are EBCDIC...that's been since I wrote BAL on s360/20
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
On Dec 8, 2013, at 1:55 PM, Warren Brown war...@att.net
Circuits talk 1s and 0s ...not hex
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
On Dec 8, 2013, at 1:58 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
Hexadecimal is a readable system for binary, if the hex characters are not
numbers per se
On 13Dec08:1352-0500, Scott Ford wrote:
Huh .maybe you should back to computer basics
...at machine level everything is binary
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
You, sir, are the one who needs to go back--specifically
to zPOPs page 9-3:
: Hexadecimal-Floating-Point (HFP
...at machine level everything is binary
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
You, sir, are the one who needs to go back--specifically
to zPOPs page 9-3:
: Hexadecimal-Floating-Point (HFP)
:
: Hexadecimal-floating-point (HFP) operands have for-
: mats which provide
On 13Dec08:1428-0500, Scott Ford wrote:
What do circuits work in ...
Sigh... I suggest you discuss it with Gene Amdahl, not me.
--
not cent from sell
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!
Dave_Craig__
So the universe is not
Then suggest you don't come out guns blazing , unless they are loaded, because
you don't have a clue
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
On Dec 8, 2013, at 2:35 PM, David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com wrote:
On 13Dec08:1428-0500, Scott Ford
Btw this isn't a Amdahl forum, it's IBM...
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
On Dec 8, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
Then suggest you don't come out guns blazing , unless they are loaded,
because you don't
about the meaning of hexadecimal
- HPF magnitude is the product of the significant and the radix powered to the
exponent
the significant is a sequence of bits
the representation table in 9-6 shows what happens when you divide
(1 - 0.5 - 1/64)
the table does not use a hexadecimal
Amdahl was the main architect of the S/360. So I guess we can mention him
on occasion.
On Dec 8, 2013 1:41 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
Btw this isn't a Amdahl forum, it's IBM...
Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD
'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
On
Sleigh bells ring...We had an ol' V8 in the basement that only did SWIFT.
It queued the requests until it got to a billion then would do the transfer.
We'd get the float on the interim. Good solid revenue producer. Then one
day it 'thermalled'. They had boxes and boxes of components trucked
At 10:55 -0800 on 12/08/2013, Warren Brown wrote about Re: hexadecimal?:
So , hexadecimal is not the same EBCDIC ?
Data in the computer is stored in 8-bit long bytes. Hex is a way of
displaying the contents of the bytes as two characters representing
the value of the first and second set
John,
I agree but you can't compare apples and oranges ...right ? I don't know that
much about Amdahl nor am I trying give the Gentleman a hard time. But
hexadecimal, excuse me?
Circuits work with 1s and 0s and Assembler, Cobol, etc translate into machine
code which is binary .maybe I am
Ah, my mistake. Digital (binary) computers do deal in 0s and 1s. Analog
computers did not, but that's all I know about them.
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to
The system/360 and its mainframe successors are largely binary
machines. In particular, addressing is entirely binary. They can,
however, do both decimal and hexadecimal arithmetic in some situations
too.
All this can be reduced to boolean algebra and, finally, to assorted
configurations
is entirely binary. They can,
however, do both decimal and hexadecimal arithmetic in some situations
too.
All this can be reduced to boolean algebra and, finally, to assorted
configurations of NORs or NANDs: binary arithmetic can indeed be made
to disappear, replaced by boolean algebra
that even
the microcode could be ignorant of. A BAL programmer had
better deal with what the POPs document. If you program
HFP instructions as if your are dealing with IEEE hardware
your results are likely to become problematic at some
point. At minimum, HFP documents a hexadecimal kind of
data
your results are likely to become problematic at some
point. At minimum, HFP documents a hexadecimal kind of
data and I rest my case.
--
not cent from sell
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!
Dave_Craig__
So the universe is not quite
On 13Dec08:1647-0500, Scott Ford wrote:
On Dec 8, 2013, at 4:39 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com wrote:
The system/360 and its mainframe successors are largely binary
machines. In particular, addressing is entirely binary. They can,
however, do both decimal and hexadecimal
On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 18:01:01 -0500, David L. Craig wrote:
Boolean algebra is a mathematics based upon variables
that can take on only two possible values. IIRC, the
Soviets were rumored to have probed the attributes
of trinary-state computing in the '60s or '70s and
discontinued the research, but
On 13Dec08:1449-0800, Scott Ford wrote:
I don't know what your profession is , but in 40+
yrs and about 20+ shops, many in the NYC area and very
very aggressive with their applications, including
z/OS, VM and VSE , I never ever had to worry about it
..Give me an example of such a concern ?
David,
For one I am not trying to bust your chops as we say up here in the Northeast.
But remember we are all products of school and experience. Because I haven't
seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I have the experience of ppl making
off the wall comments with no knowledge or
On 13Dec08:1717-0600, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 18:01:01 -0500, David L. Craig wrote:
Boolean algebra is a mathematics based upon variables
that can take on only two possible values. IIRC, the
Soviets were rumored to have probed the attributes
of trinary-state computing in
dlc@gmail.com (David L. Craig) writes:
GINYF when it doesn't equate trinary with trenary, a term
I had forgotten (I'm really trying to avoid turning this
thread into a career). At least it wasn't just a rumor.
+1 and thanks for causing me to be reminded of Minerva--
perhaps someday
the point that a manual which refers to this
parameter value as hexadecimal, while perhaps trivially true, is also
uselessly imprecise. This should not be allowed in a well-edited manual.
The z-Arch PoOp describes many, many data formats used in the many
contexts of z/OS architecture, all of which
On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 20:01:20 -0600, Joel C. Ewing wrote:
If the real requirement is that the parameter address must point to a
location containing what the PoOp describes as a half-word binary value,
then the manual should state precisely that.
Thanks for bringing this thread back to my original
On 12/8/2013 3:54 PM, Scott Ford wrote:
Circuits work with 1s and 0s and Assembler, Cobol, etc translate into
machine code which is binary
Computers, depending on architecture, have components that process
signals in parallel. For example, the old I/O hardware sent 8-bits (plus
parity)
the
hexadecimal value of the record's data length, ...
Hexadecimal!? Does this mean the value must be coded as hexadecimal
display, e.g. C'50' to indicate 80? Or must it be coded as a hexadecimal
self-defining term (X'50')? Why not a decimal self-defining term (80)?
Or a binary self-defining
At 16:53 -0600 on 12/07/2013, Paul Gilmartin wrote about hexadecimal?:
From:
Title: z/OS V1R13.0 DFSMSdfp Advanced Services
Document Number: SC26-7400-14
... that I was reading lately:
7.5.3.1 TRKCALC--Standard Form
...
DD=addr--RX-type address, (2-12), (0), (14
This is quite usual. It is an early example of a generic facility.
Thus, for example, the HLASM bif BYTE can be used to obtain a nul
character by coding either of
|nul setc BYTE(x'00')--nul character
or
|nul setc BYTE(0) --nul character
and conjecturally but
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