Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-06 Thread Grant Taylor

On 7/5/20 11:31 AM, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote:
P.S. - At least in my mail client, your email address in the message 
headers is the listserv web interface, AFAIK it is not possible to 
email you privately at that address.


Thank you for letting me know.

gtaylor (at) tnetconsulting (dot) net

I wonder if the alternate email address is related to my domain and mail 
server's configurations.




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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-05 Thread CM Poncelet
Count me in ditto.
 
I have a P/390 running OS/390 V2R10 (bought on ebay) - but no ADCD's for
it or even SMP/E installed either.
 
If I can get its CD's at a one-off cost, that'd make my day. It's not to
develop commercial software, but just as a 'hobby' to get back to
mainframe programming and away from Windoze.
 
So yes, I'll chip in if it helps me get its ADCD's.
 
Cheers, Chris Poncelet (retired sysprog)
 


On 05/07/2020 18:31, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote:
> Count me in for a more serious discussion.  Note that some (perhaps large) 
> proportion of potential users of such a co-op may be of the kind that need 
> infrequent access to system programmer functionalities, only the widest 
> possible range of compilers and subsystems for application-level explorations.
>
> Of course there would also be those who would need / want the ability to 
> explore authorized-program  construction and use (how to set up and use PC-SS 
> clients and servers, for example), and such exploration always has the 
> possibility to blow up or cripple a system while learning the Right Way to do 
> such things.
>
> Easy recovery of a "virgin" working system-level environment with your source 
> / data disks left intact will be important for such explorations.
>
> Another "setup" issue may be what third-party tools can / should be included. 
>  E.G., Rocket ports and jzos are free to install, but to be done properly and 
> considering the total space occupied should be installed at the system level, 
> not in individual user file systems.
>
> Certainly some discussion is needed around the availability / use of such 
> features.  Ditto for such features as the emerging Zowe environment and RD/z 
> or whatever that is named these days and zOSMF, etc., etc.  Can / should a 
> user be permitted to set up some reasonable number of large EAV volumes for 
> big-data functionality exploration?  Ditto for large unix file systems or 
> z/OS based git server hubs.
>
> Peter
>
> P.S. - At least in my mail client, your email address in the message headers 
> is the listserv web interface, AFAIK it is not possible to email you 
> privately at that address.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Grant Taylor
> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 2:22 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment
>
> On 7/4/20 6:27 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> If anybody gets upset it will be because of "just because you feel 
>> z/OS ought to be free (as in beer"; few if any posters here have 
>> suggested such a belief. What I have seen is posters asking for 
>> affordable hobbyist license fees.
> Agreed.
>
>> I'm not the one suggesting the co-op, but at first glance the idea is 
>> intriguing.
> I lobbed the idea of a co-op out there the same way that people throw things 
> at the wall to see how things stick and what the reaction is. 
> But it does seem like there is some interest, some of it more than casual.  
> I'm now thinking that a poll might be in order.
>
> Please reply to this message, either publicly or privately, if you are 
> interested in having a more serious discussion about a mainframe co-op.
>
>> I'm already paying an annuual support fee for ArcaOS, a rebranded 
>> OS/2; if I could get z/OS and z/VM on Hercules at comparable cost then 
>> it wouldn't break my budget.
> I seriously doubt that we will ever be able to legally run z/OS on Hercules.  
> I suspect that it would have to be on an older / smaller system or z/PDT or 
> guest VMs on someone's larger system.
>
>> The deciding factor would be the license terms; it would have to be 
>> legal to use the platform to develop commercial software.
> I don't object to the idea.  But my limited understanding is that such 
> probably raises the bar more than little bit.
>

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-05 Thread David Mingee
I say yes to a Mainframe co-op.  It could morph into a very useful thing over 
time.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Grant Taylor
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2020 2:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

On 7/4/20 6:27 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> If anybody gets upset it will be because of "just because you feel 
> z/OS ought to be free (as in beer"; few if any posters here have 
> suggested such a belief. What I have seen is posters asking for 
> affordable hobbyist license fees.

Agreed.

> I'm not the one suggesting the co-op, but at first glance the idea is 
> intriguing.

I lobbed the idea of a co-op out there the same way that people throw things at 
the wall to see how things stick and what the reaction is. 
But it does seem like there is some interest, some of it more than casual.  I'm 
now thinking that a poll might be in order.

Please reply to this message, either publicly or privately, if you are 
interested in having a more serious discussion about a mainframe co-op.

> I'm already paying an annuual support fee for ArcaOS, a rebranded 
> OS/2; if I could get z/OS and z/VM on Hercules at comparable cost then 
> it wouldn't break my budget.

I seriously doubt that we will ever be able to legally run z/OS on Hercules.  I 
suspect that it would have to be on an older / smaller system or z/PDT or guest 
VMs on someone's larger system.

> The deciding factor would be the license terms; it would have to be 
> legal to use the platform to develop commercial software.

I don't object to the idea.  But my limited understanding is that such probably 
raises the bar more than little bit.



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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-05 Thread Farley, Peter x23353
Count me in for a more serious discussion.  Note that some (perhaps large) 
proportion of potential users of such a co-op may be of the kind that need 
infrequent access to system programmer functionalities, only the widest 
possible range of compilers and subsystems for application-level explorations.

Of course there would also be those who would need / want the ability to 
explore authorized-program  construction and use (how to set up and use PC-SS 
clients and servers, for example), and such exploration always has the 
possibility to blow up or cripple a system while learning the Right Way to do 
such things.

Easy recovery of a "virgin" working system-level environment with your source / 
data disks left intact will be important for such explorations.

Another "setup" issue may be what third-party tools can / should be included.  
E.G., Rocket ports and jzos are free to install, but to be done properly and 
considering the total space occupied should be installed at the system level, 
not in individual user file systems.

Certainly some discussion is needed around the availability / use of such 
features.  Ditto for such features as the emerging Zowe environment and RD/z or 
whatever that is named these days and zOSMF, etc., etc.  Can / should a user be 
permitted to set up some reasonable number of large EAV volumes for big-data 
functionality exploration?  Ditto for large unix file systems or z/OS based git 
server hubs.

Peter

P.S. - At least in my mail client, your email address in the message headers is 
the listserv web interface, AFAIK it is not possible to email you privately at 
that address.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Grant Taylor
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 2:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

On 7/4/20 6:27 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> If anybody gets upset it will be because of "just because you feel 
> z/OS ought to be free (as in beer"; few if any posters here have 
> suggested such a belief. What I have seen is posters asking for 
> affordable hobbyist license fees.

Agreed.

> I'm not the one suggesting the co-op, but at first glance the idea is 
> intriguing.

I lobbed the idea of a co-op out there the same way that people throw things at 
the wall to see how things stick and what the reaction is. 
But it does seem like there is some interest, some of it more than casual.  I'm 
now thinking that a poll might be in order.

Please reply to this message, either publicly or privately, if you are 
interested in having a more serious discussion about a mainframe co-op.

> I'm already paying an annuual support fee for ArcaOS, a rebranded 
> OS/2; if I could get z/OS and z/VM on Hercules at comparable cost then 
> it wouldn't break my budget.

I seriously doubt that we will ever be able to legally run z/OS on Hercules.  I 
suspect that it would have to be on an older / smaller system or z/PDT or guest 
VMs on someone's larger system.

> The deciding factor would be the license terms; it would have to be 
> legal to use the platform to develop commercial software.

I don't object to the idea.  But my limited understanding is that such probably 
raises the bar more than little bit.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-05 Thread Seymour J Metz
I'm certainly interested in a discussion; whether I would joint the co-op would 
depend very much on where the price was set.

If this flies, there are going to be tradeoffs, and in some cases arbitrary 
decisions. Whatever you do will leave some people out, and if I'm one, those 
are the breaks. I'd rather be excluded and have it fly than see it flop because 
of tailoring it to my needs.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Grant Taylor [023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 2:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

On 7/4/20 6:27 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> If anybody gets upset it will be because of "just because you feel
> z/OS ought to be free (as in beer"; few if any posters here have
> suggested such a belief. What I have seen is posters asking for
> affordable hobbyist license fees.

Agreed.

> I'm not the one suggesting the co-op, but at first glance the idea
> is intriguing.

I lobbed the idea of a co-op out there the same way that people throw
things at the wall to see how things stick and what the reaction is.
But it does seem like there is some interest, some of it more than
casual.  I'm now thinking that a poll might be in order.

Please reply to this message, either publicly or privately, if you are
interested in having a more serious discussion about a mainframe co-op.

> I'm already paying an annuual support fee for ArcaOS, a rebranded
> OS/2; if I could get z/OS and z/VM on Hercules at comparable cost
> then it wouldn't break my budget.

I seriously doubt that we will ever be able to legally run z/OS on
Hercules.  I suspect that it would have to be on an older / smaller
system or z/PDT or guest VMs on someone's larger system.

> The deciding factor would be the license terms; it would have to be
> legal to use the platform to develop commercial software.

I don't object to the idea.  But my limited understanding is that such
probably raises the bar more than little bit.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-05 Thread Grant Taylor

On 7/4/20 6:27 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
If anybody gets upset it will be because of "just because you feel 
z/OS ought to be free (as in beer"; few if any posters here have 
suggested such a belief. What I have seen is posters asking for 
affordable hobbyist license fees.


Agreed.

I'm not the one suggesting the co-op, but at first glance the idea 
is intriguing.


I lobbed the idea of a co-op out there the same way that people throw 
things at the wall to see how things stick and what the reaction is. 
But it does seem like there is some interest, some of it more than 
casual.  I'm now thinking that a poll might be in order.


Please reply to this message, either publicly or privately, if you are 
interested in having a more serious discussion about a mainframe co-op.


I'm already paying an annuual support fee for ArcaOS, a rebranded 
OS/2; if I could get z/OS and z/VM on Hercules at comparable cost 
then it wouldn't break my budget.


I seriously doubt that we will ever be able to legally run z/OS on 
Hercules.  I suspect that it would have to be on an older / smaller 
system or z/PDT or guest VMs on someone's larger system.


The deciding factor would be the license terms; it would have to be 
legal to use the platform to develop commercial software.


I don't object to the idea.  But my limited understanding is that such 
probably raises the bar more than little bit.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-04 Thread Seymour J Metz
> Before anyone gets upset,

If anybody gets upset it will be because of "just because you feel z/OS ought 
to be free (as in beer"; few if any posters here have suggested such a belief. 
What I have seen is posters asking for affordable hobbyist license fees.

I'm not the one suggesting the co-op, but at first glance the idea is 
intriguing. Yes, there are a lot of issues that must be hashed out, and in some 
cases the details won't be to everyone's taste, but offhand I see no reason why 
it shouldn't fly. One of thos issues is the cost of membership; too low and 
there will be services you can'r offer the members; too high and there will be 
otherwise interested people who will be unable or unwilling to pay.

I'm already paying an annuual support fee for ArcaOS, a rebranded OS/2; if I 
could get z/OS and z/VM on Hercules at comparable cost then it wouldn't break 
my budget. The deciding factor would be the license terms; it would have to be 
legal to use the platform to develop commercial software.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Brian Westerman [brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2020 2:08 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

Before anyone gets upset, this is ONLY my opinion, I'm not trying to force 
anyone to do or believe things the way I do, so please don't flame me just 
because you feel z/OS ought to be free (as in beer) just because you want to 
use it and don't think you should have to pay.  I'm sure there are people who 
say the same thing about the Disney theme parks, that they cost too much and 
should be free or low cost, but that's just not going to happen and neither is 
z/OS going to get a rate cut any time soon.

I don't think anyone on this list would consider running production under 
Hercules or z/PDT, or even running production period.  What would production 
even mean for most, if not all of us.  I think 99.9% of the people who use 
Hercules have absolutely no interest in running a production data center on it. 
 The people on this list who are already (or were) systems programmers have 
little interest in starting up a production site "at home". :)

I agree that IBM would be well served to come up with a lower cost alternative 
for people who want to just try stuff out.  But as all of us who are systems 
programmers know, users have a really, really bad habit of breaking things, so 
who would maintain that "shared" platform?  Certainly it can't be group 
maintained by some shade-tree systems programmers out of some altruistic 
feelings to help the world use z/OS.  I don't think I know 3 systems 
programmers that can completely agree on how to run a single LPAR let alone 
something that people want to be able to do their own I/O gens on (and actually 
try it out to see if it works).  So IBM would have to probably create a (paid) 
staff.  If we use something like the Dallas test center as an example, there 
would be about a dozen people (minimum) absolutely necessary to fully support 
the project (systems people, operators, help desk 24x7 shift support, etc.), so 
we would be looking at a cost of (easily) $1.2 to $1.6Million (probably much 
more).  If we take $1.4M and assume 300 people want to use it. That's over 
$4,600 each, every year per user.  If there were more people it would obviously 
be a bit cheaper, but remember, these aren't ordinary people using CICS to 
answer customer service calls, these are systems programmers and applications 
programmers who want to build and break stuff, create looping code, design some 
stuff that probably doesn't work (yet), so the more you add the more staff they 
will need to support it.

I think $10K up front and $900 a year to keep the subscription active and 
current is VERY cost effective compared to a huge shared system with 300 other 
people.

Besides, if you get 10 or even 5 people together and share the cost, I think 
you can make z/PDT affordable for almost everyone and it's worth every penny.

Remember, it's just my opinion, you can read it, or not and agree or not, but 
do take any of this personally, it's only meant to be my opinion on the 
subject, not the holy grail or anything.

Brian

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 16:29:39 -0400, Tony Harminc  wrote:

>On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 11:45, Grant Taylor
><023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>> I find it very difficult to believe that some business couldn't rent out
>> tiny z/VM guests as VPSs for < $100 a month.  Limited resources (storage
>> / CPU / DASD) would be perfectly fine for hobbyists & students.
>
>It's not obvious that the licence that such a business has from IBM
>would allow that. There have been questions on this list from time to
>time

Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-04 Thread Brian Westerman
Before anyone gets upset, this is ONLY my opinion, I'm not trying to force 
anyone to do or believe things the way I do, so please don't flame me just 
because you feel z/OS ought to be free (as in beer) just because you want to 
use it and don't think you should have to pay.  I'm sure there are people who 
say the same thing about the Disney theme parks, that they cost too much and 
should be free or low cost, but that's just not going to happen and neither is 
z/OS going to get a rate cut any time soon.

I don't think anyone on this list would consider running production under 
Hercules or z/PDT, or even running production period.  What would production 
even mean for most, if not all of us.  I think 99.9% of the people who use 
Hercules have absolutely no interest in running a production data center on it. 
 The people on this list who are already (or were) systems programmers have 
little interest in starting up a production site "at home". :)

I agree that IBM would be well served to come up with a lower cost alternative 
for people who want to just try stuff out.  But as all of us who are systems 
programmers know, users have a really, really bad habit of breaking things, so 
who would maintain that "shared" platform?  Certainly it can't be group 
maintained by some shade-tree systems programmers out of some altruistic 
feelings to help the world use z/OS.  I don't think I know 3 systems 
programmers that can completely agree on how to run a single LPAR let alone 
something that people want to be able to do their own I/O gens on (and actually 
try it out to see if it works).  So IBM would have to probably create a (paid) 
staff.  If we use something like the Dallas test center as an example, there 
would be about a dozen people (minimum) absolutely necessary to fully support 
the project (systems people, operators, help desk 24x7 shift support, etc.), so 
we would be looking at a cost of (easily) $1.2 to $1.6Million (probably much 
more).  If we take $1.4M and assume 300 people want to use it. That's over 
$4,600 each, every year per user.  If there were more people it would obviously 
be a bit cheaper, but remember, these aren't ordinary people using CICS to 
answer customer service calls, these are systems programmers and applications 
programmers who want to build and break stuff, create looping code, design some 
stuff that probably doesn't work (yet), so the more you add the more staff they 
will need to support it.

I think $10K up front and $900 a year to keep the subscription active and 
current is VERY cost effective compared to a huge shared system with 300 other 
people.

Besides, if you get 10 or even 5 people together and share the cost, I think 
you can make z/PDT affordable for almost everyone and it's worth every penny.

Remember, it's just my opinion, you can read it, or not and agree or not, but 
do take any of this personally, it's only meant to be my opinion on the 
subject, not the holy grail or anything.

Brian

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 16:29:39 -0400, Tony Harminc  wrote:

>On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 11:45, Grant Taylor
><023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>> I find it very difficult to believe that some business couldn't rent out
>> tiny z/VM guests as VPSs for < $100 a month.  Limited resources (storage
>> / CPU / DASD) would be perfectly fine for hobbyists & students.
>
>It's not obvious that the licence that such a business has from IBM
>would allow that. There have been questions on this list from time to
>time about where someone can go to buy commercial z/OS time, and there
>are a few answers. But it's still not clear what licence such
>providers may have with IBM.
>
>> I want to be crystal clear on something.  I think that z/PDT is
>> perfectly acceptable for businesses, even small ones.  It is only the
>> smaller / lower end market that it is a problem for.
>
>The z/PDT (both versions) is explicitly licensed for non-production
>use only. Even routine production builds for running on Real Iron are
>proscribed.
>
>Tony H.
>
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread Tony Harminc
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 11:45, Grant Taylor
<023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I find it very difficult to believe that some business couldn't rent out
> tiny z/VM guests as VPSs for < $100 a month.  Limited resources (storage
> / CPU / DASD) would be perfectly fine for hobbyists & students.

It's not obvious that the licence that such a business has from IBM
would allow that. There have been questions on this list from time to
time about where someone can go to buy commercial z/OS time, and there
are a few answers. But it's still not clear what licence such
providers may have with IBM.

> I want to be crystal clear on something.  I think that z/PDT is
> perfectly acceptable for businesses, even small ones.  It is only the
> smaller / lower end market that it is a problem for.

The z/PDT (both versions) is explicitly licensed for non-production
use only. Even routine production builds for running on Real Iron are
proscribed.

Tony H.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread Grant Taylor

On 7/3/20 4:41 AM, R.S. wrote:

1. (Some) people like to "hack", break rules, be wilful.


I strongly suspect that a personal tiny guest VM would suffice for most 
in this camp.  I know it would for me.



So, "illegal" Hercules with illegal z/OS is just fancy for them.


There are some that /want/ to do the illegal thing.  I doubt much can be 
done for them.


But the people that want to do a SYSGEN or mess with IOCDS or replacing 
DASD to learn would probably be content with a guest VM and don't 
/actually/ want to be /illegal/.


Notice how hobbyists and students probably completely fall into the tiny 
guest VM category.  People that want to do illegal things are going to 
do illegal things.  Let's find a good option for hobbyists and students.


2. Free is much better even than $20 per year subscription. Yes, it is 
close to lunch expense. But it is not free. It require some 
registration, contract, etc. People don't like it.


I believe that this registration, contract, etc. are perfectly 
acceptable for most, if not all, hobbyists and students.


Free without any obligations is much more attractive. That would 
induce many young people to just "play and try" this platform. Just 
for fun. Or just because it may help with some university duties. This 
is the method to make mainframe more popular or at least known to 
young people.


I agree that this level of freedom is better than the registration, 
contract, etc.  But I don't know if it's /needed/ the same way that 
anything, even with said registration, contract, etc., is needed.


Where's the tiny guest VM w/ 1 MIPS more than the OS itself needs?

If I'm off base with 1 MIPS, where's the guest VM that has the same user 
experience as far as performance is concerned as a Raspberry Pi does for 
running Linux (et al.)?  Read:  Fast enough to learn on, but decidedly 
WAY TOO SLOW to do anything real on.


3. Nowadays Hercules running any current IBM OS is illegal. However 
those who want to use it still do it. Including IBMers. Risk? C'mon! The 
real risk would be when someone provide open classes (JCL, ISPF, etc.) 
on such system.


I would absolutely LOVE it to find a tiny guest VM and access to someone 
like an instructor that can help guide people and help them avoid common 
pitfalls.  I would normally associate this with a learning institution 
and professor.  "Yes, you can do , but you want to not do  
because of .  Why don't you try this  
that will produce a  instead."


Or some company deliver some software products with no other "legal 
mainframe". However for personal use it is quite safe. Yes, illegal.


4. Do you know, Microsoft give almost all their products to students (in 
Poland) for free. It doesn't matter whether you study IT sciences, 
archeology or ethnology. Even young ethnologist may download and use MS 
Windows Server, MS SQL, etc. etc. What about IBM and mainframe? Almost 
nothing. Some (now only one) universities signed  some agreement and 
they are somehow allowed to use IBM standard courses on IBM machines in 
Poughkeepsie. It is the same like commercial course, which I sometimes 
guide as a teacher. Of course student is not alloowed to access the 
resources after the course is finished. He can use PC with MS stuff, but 
not TSO account.


I am thankful for the Master the Mainframe course / competition allowing 
registered students to continue to access the mainframe after the 
competition ends up until the point that the SYSPROGs reconfigure the 
system for the next year's MtM course / competition.  But, this is only 
temporary, and it doesn't provide the type of access that I'd like to 
have to play / learn / grow.


Students have the freedom to crash / break / rebuild things as many ways 
as they can think of with the aforementioned MS products.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread Charles Mills
+1

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Grant Taylor
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 8:45 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

On 7/2/20 11:34 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
> How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or 
> some of the other expensive hobbies.

I don't have figures handy, but I strongly suspect that all of the above 
don't average out at $5,000 a year.  I suspect they come in considerably 
lower than that.

> People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new phone.

Even that is only 20% of the cost of z/PDT.  You probably (could) get 
much more real world use out of your phone than you do z/PDT.

> ... I suppose you are correct, if you can't justify the cost, then it 
> might seem too much.

It's not only the matter of justification.  There is also the fact that 
some, if not many, people interested in mainframe simply don't have that 
type of money to put towards an interest.  Further, for many, the 
interest and probably casual at best, especially early on.

Asking someone who's been spending a lot of time on the mainframe to 
spend $5k / year who is willing to do that in lieu of a Harley / boat / 
sports car, sure.  But that is a much smaller segment of the market.

Remember the unofficial layers eight and nine of the OSI model.  Eight 
being politics and nine being money.  They are in that order because if 
you can't beg, borrow, or steal the money, you can't spend it on something.

> Although, the alternative of doing it illegally is not even what I 
> would consider to be an option at all.

I'm not advocating for an illegal option.

I am advocating for a new and different legal option.

I'd like to see something that would allow me to access a contemporary 
z/OS / z/VM system with about 1 MIPS of user space processes (I don't 
know what the OS needs these days).  I'd be willing to pay $20 to $100 a 
month for that.  Where is the mainframe VPS that is approachable for 
hobbyists and students?  Even $100 a month is rich for many hobbyists 
and students.  But that's at effectively five times more accessible than 
a z/PDT.

All of the mainframe VPS options that I've seen are targeting businesses 
that are going to spend 4+ figures a month.  Which again excludes 
hobbyists and student.

I find it very difficult to believe that some business couldn't rent out 
tiny z/VM guests as VPSs for < $100 a month.  Limited resources (storage 
/ CPU / DASD) would be perfectly fine for hobbyists & students.

I want to be crystal clear on something.  I think that z/PDT is 
perfectly acceptable for businesses, even small ones.  It is only the 
smaller / lower end market that it is a problem for.

Unfortunately, it's this smaller / lower end market that /needs/ to have 
their interest captured, lest the current guard will find that there are 
no new guard to be had.

Master the Mainframe is a nice thing for the first 3-9 months.  But 
where does someone who has completed MtM turn to after the 9 months 
before they have a job.  Even when they do have a job, they probably 
can't play / learn / grow on the work system like they could a personal 
guest VM.




-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread Grant Taylor

On 7/2/20 11:34 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or 
some of the other expensive hobbies.


I don't have figures handy, but I strongly suspect that all of the above 
don't average out at $5,000 a year.  I suspect they come in considerably 
lower than that.



People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new phone.


Even that is only 20% of the cost of z/PDT.  You probably (could) get 
much more real world use out of your phone than you do z/PDT.


... I suppose you are correct, if you can't justify the cost, then it 
might seem too much.


It's not only the matter of justification.  There is also the fact that 
some, if not many, people interested in mainframe simply don't have that 
type of money to put towards an interest.  Further, for many, the 
interest and probably casual at best, especially early on.


Asking someone who's been spending a lot of time on the mainframe to 
spend $5k / year who is willing to do that in lieu of a Harley / boat / 
sports car, sure.  But that is a much smaller segment of the market.


Remember the unofficial layers eight and nine of the OSI model.  Eight 
being politics and nine being money.  They are in that order because if 
you can't beg, borrow, or steal the money, you can't spend it on something.


Although, the alternative of doing it illegally is not even what I 
would consider to be an option at all.


I'm not advocating for an illegal option.

I am advocating for a new and different legal option.

I'd like to see something that would allow me to access a contemporary 
z/OS / z/VM system with about 1 MIPS of user space processes (I don't 
know what the OS needs these days).  I'd be willing to pay $20 to $100 a 
month for that.  Where is the mainframe VPS that is approachable for 
hobbyists and students?  Even $100 a month is rich for many hobbyists 
and students.  But that's at effectively five times more accessible than 
a z/PDT.


All of the mainframe VPS options that I've seen are targeting businesses 
that are going to spend 4+ figures a month.  Which again excludes 
hobbyists and student.


I find it very difficult to believe that some business couldn't rent out 
tiny z/VM guests as VPSs for < $100 a month.  Limited resources (storage 
/ CPU / DASD) would be perfectly fine for hobbyists & students.


I want to be crystal clear on something.  I think that z/PDT is 
perfectly acceptable for businesses, even small ones.  It is only the 
smaller / lower end market that it is a problem for.


Unfortunately, it's this smaller / lower end market that /needs/ to have 
their interest captured, lest the current guard will find that there are 
no new guard to be had.


Master the Mainframe is a nice thing for the first 3-9 months.  But 
where does someone who has completed MtM turn to after the 9 months 
before they have a job.  Even when they do have a job, they probably 
can't play / learn / grow on the work system like they could a personal 
guest VM.





--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread Seymour J Metz
Well, one of us does.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 9:56 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

I see you have a lot of free time and you decided to spend it on
pointless quarrels.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland






W dniu 03.07.2020 o 15:45, Seymour J Metz pisze:
> You made a general comment that was only true for a narrow class of people.
>
>> And read whole message,
> I did. If there are people such as you described, they are certainly not the 
> ones criticizing IBM's licensing policies on this list.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
> Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 9:38 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment
>
> W dniu 03.07.2020 o 13:36, Seymour J Metz pisze:
>>> The problem is not in the money, not only here.
>> Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
>> Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not 
>> chump change.
> Speak for yourself. Others may have other opinion than yours.
> And read whole message, not single sentence out of context.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>


==

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tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1S2wXg0vy9-eIYdGBpAv8HXnJ2pE9BavK4Kpqiwj_8d-0eeCsoUJPmOLMMtdUNu7Gx64WXGc4kppO24eEZHbYQPNFxwWWZsHzPqPlNYGdO_Y4Olj8TSch1exr0bfeDHvNSGWogpGW8C-A8Hqb1BtwfYpb8v0QINGDEf8rmIHJFRFurKTiWR6I9_DWDk1Gf8PXwU6ogiMIULSUGp5at6VU2q3nsG6ovzdCQ8zwK6GlY_xbtcpcHUM2ahHbxsaojms8S3bB6ZS8sSmASP73gOimac7Mi7RzXbWFjHz4t-DBZRlh4RXM90uGplf_eU7CgSEITn6CpcK28Pj0yVgfh6mzgJbaUuxadqS77g0xMiG1WlJBk8oeHfxlSKoEJ3prCq57Q2grhIpsNcYKLy3CmD-lCdGHmX2Sa1PerCE9Eoql0xlcr8UFR2VnUNAOGzMrPUUQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl,
 e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział 
Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. 
Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 
169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
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This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used 
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mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1S2wXg0vy9-eIYdGBpAv8HXnJ2pE9BavK4Kpqiwj_8d-0eeCsoUJPmOLMMtdUNu7Gx64WXGc4kppO24eEZHbYQPNFxwWWZsHzPqPlNYGdO_Y4Olj8TSch1exr0bfeDHvNSGWogpGW8C-A8Hqb1BtwfYpb8v0QINGDEf8rmIHJFRFurKTiWR6I9_DWDk1Gf8PXwU6ogiMIULSUGp5at6VU2q3nsG6ovzdCQ8zwK6GlY_xbtcpcHUM2ahHbxsaojms8S3bB6ZS8sSmASP73gOimac7Mi7RzXbWFjHz4t-DBZRlh4RXM90uGplf_eU7CgSEITn6CpcK28Pj0yVgfh6mzgJbaUuxadqS77g0xMiG1WlJBk8oeHfxlSKoEJ3prCq57Q2grhIpsNcYKLy3CmD-lCdGHmX2Sa1PerCE9Eoql0xlcr8UFR2VnUNAOGzMrPUUQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl,
 e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th 
Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 
526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 
January 2020.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread R.S.
I see you have a lot of free time and you decided to spend it on 
pointless quarrels.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland






W dniu 03.07.2020 o 15:45, Seymour J Metz pisze:

You made a general comment that was only true for a narrow class of people.


And read whole message,

I did. If there are people such as you described, they are certainly not the 
ones criticizing IBM's licensing policies on this list.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 9:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 13:36, Seymour J Metz pisze:

The problem is not in the money, not only here.

Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not chump 
change.

Speak for yourself. Others may have other opinion than yours.
And read whole message, not single sentence out of context.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




==

Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:

- powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
- usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś 
na dysku).
Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać 
tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
- delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have 
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This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used 
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(copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the 
law and may be penalised.

mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread Seymour J Metz
You made a general comment that was only true for a narrow class of people.

> And read whole message,

I did. If there are people such as you described, they are certainly not the 
ones criticizing IBM's licensing policies on this list.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 9:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 13:36, Seymour J Metz pisze:
>> The problem is not in the money, not only here.
> Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
> Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not 
> chump change.

Speak for yourself. Others may have other opinion than yours.
And read whole message, not single sentence out of context.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





==

Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:

- powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
- usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś 
na dysku).
Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać 
tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1OzNP-esKDFVZdQdYlq-QYY27_AerLFYhBnIRJsctDYbMzDkXF_hjJqR0PbbFyftPzHdcFFyOy49SQraD-JMuyTamqo-ITgVw9PgR61Xv4sDniquUjQ_M07tMK7OkADmaBEWpAv4PVXxwNWPsd3VM7ZwkMiz_060JnRlMUj_sU1UYf3ihMK94U-lqwZOoAu2W8g6dudvpiMVnUfMmfms1NOQQhqF3ycf7lNc1kSCTXXSWb-DFSzLvlbORlbKGi8gc5f1tO_FxKZZXHYAYEgBbBqS_lfvKOtcMhjmsF3jGRaUyjXQmymGLlOHWLmJ1a9jhBwoGp2OXCXuH68zqOyPuSn4NX2tIZIwHGJm3zNm8ityC17cpOiYwy80-quRrb8jfaYTc7mLB06Biz7D44csE3ylqeRsTy25T8HjtkZj9ZllluFVG9w7tgPdLbuTDfVig/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl,
 e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział 
Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. 
Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 
169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
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This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used 
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law and may be penalised.

mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,http://secure-web.cisco.com/1OzNP-esKDFVZdQdYlq-QYY27_AerLFYhBnIRJsctDYbMzDkXF_hjJqR0PbbFyftPzHdcFFyOy49SQraD-JMuyTamqo-ITgVw9PgR61Xv4sDniquUjQ_M07tMK7OkADmaBEWpAv4PVXxwNWPsd3VM7ZwkMiz_060JnRlMUj_sU1UYf3ihMK94U-lqwZOoAu2W8g6dudvpiMVnUfMmfms1NOQQhqF3ycf7lNc1kSCTXXSWb-DFSzLvlbORlbKGi8gc5f1tO_FxKZZXHYAYEgBbBqS_lfvKOtcMhjmsF3jGRaUyjXQmymGLlOHWLmJ1a9jhBwoGp2OXCXuH68zqOyPuSn4NX2tIZIwHGJm3zNm8ityC17cpOiYwy80-quRrb8jfaYTc7mLB06Biz7D44csE3ylqeRsTy25T8HjtkZj9ZllluFVG9w7tgPdLbuTDfVig/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mBank.pl,
 e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th 
Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 
526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 
January 2020.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread R.S.

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 13:36, Seymour J Metz pisze:

The problem is not in the money, not only here.

Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not chump 
change.


Speak for yourself. Others may have other opinion than yours.
And read whole message, not single sentence out of context.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





==

Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:

- powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
- usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś 
na dysku).
Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać 
tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
- delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have 
printed out or saved).
This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used 
exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates 
(copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the 
law and may be penalised.

mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread Seymour J Metz
> The problem is not in the money, not only here.

Speak for yourself. Others are more honest, and the problem *is* the money. 
Maybe you've never had to live on a budget, but for some of us $5K is not chump 
change.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
R.S. [r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl]
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 6:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 07:34, Brian Westerman pisze:
> How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or some of 
> the other expensive hobbies.  People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new 
> phone.  I did get a discount on that, but I suppose you are correct, if you 
> can't justify the cost, then it might seem too much.  Although, the 
> alternative of doing it illegally is not even what I would consider to be an 
> option at all.

The problem is not in the money, not only here.
It is matter of human mentality. Many aspects of that.

1. (Some) people like to "hack", break rules, be wilful. So, "illegal"
Hercules with illegal z/OS is just fancy for them.

2. Free is much better even  than $20 per year subscription. Yes, it is
close to lunch expense. But it is not free. It require some
registration, contract, etc. People don't like it. Free without any
obligations is much more attractive. That would induce many young people
to just "play and try" this platform. Just for fun. Or just because it
may help with some university duties. This is the method to make
mainframe more popular or at least known to young people.

3. Nowadays Hercules running any current IBM OS is illegal. However
those who want to use it still do it. Including IBMers. Risk? C'mon! The
real risk would be when someone provide open classes (JCL, ISPF, etc.)
on such system. Or some company deliver some software products with no
other "legal mainframe". However for personal use it is quite safe. Yes,
illegal.

4. Do you know, Microsoft give almost all their products to students (in
Poland) for free. It doesn't matter whether you study IT sciences,
archeology or ethnology. Even young ethnologist may download and use MS
Windows Server, MS SQL, etc. etc. What about IBM and mainframe? Almost
nothing. Some (now only one) universities signed  some agreement and
they are somehow allowed to use IBM standard courses on IBM machines in
Poughkeepsie. It is the same like commercial course, which I sometimes
guide as a teacher. Of course student is not alloowed to access the
resources after the course is finished. He can use PC with MS stuff, but
not TSO account.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





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Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread R.S.

W dniu 03.07.2020 o 07:34, Brian Westerman pisze:

How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or some of the 
other expensive hobbies.  People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new phone.  I 
did get a discount on that, but I suppose you are correct, if you can't justify 
the cost, then it might seem too much.  Although, the alternative of doing it 
illegally is not even what I would consider to be an option at all.


The problem is not in the money, not only here.
It is matter of human mentality. Many aspects of that.

1. (Some) people like to "hack", break rules, be wilful. So, "illegal" 
Hercules with illegal z/OS is just fancy for them.


2. Free is much better even  than $20 per year subscription. Yes, it is 
close to lunch expense. But it is not free. It require some 
registration, contract, etc. People don't like it. Free without any 
obligations is much more attractive. That would induce many young people 
to just "play and try" this platform. Just for fun. Or just because it 
may help with some university duties. This is the method to make 
mainframe more popular or at least known to young people.


3. Nowadays Hercules running any current IBM OS is illegal. However 
those who want to use it still do it. Including IBMers. Risk? C'mon! The 
real risk would be when someone provide open classes (JCL, ISPF, etc.) 
on such system. Or some company deliver some software products with no 
other "legal mainframe". However for personal use it is quite safe. Yes, 
illegal.


4. Do you know, Microsoft give almost all their products to students (in 
Poland) for free. It doesn't matter whether you study IT sciences, 
archeology or ethnology. Even young ethnologist may download and use MS 
Windows Server, MS SQL, etc. etc. What about IBM and mainframe? Almost 
nothing. Some (now only one) universities signed  some agreement and 
they are somehow allowed to use IBM standard courses on IBM machines in 
Poughkeepsie. It is the same like commercial course, which I sometimes 
guide as a teacher. Of course student is not alloowed to access the 
resources after the course is finished. He can use PC with MS stuff, but 
not TSO account.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





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mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
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City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-03 Thread R.S.

And what?
Did IBM build such versions? NO!
Is it possible to do it? Well IBM dislike Hercules a lot. However they 
didn't try to do it. Last, but not least: Hercules is hardware emulator. 
Such problem would mean issue with the emulation (found and used by 
IBM), which is probably feasible to be fixed.


Last, but not least: I replied to your words. But you misunderstood my 
previous words. My "and what" was related to the risk of investigation 
who was asking. Wasn't it obvious?


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland







W dniu 01.07.2020 o 17:11, Joe Monk pisze:

"And what?"

How about ... and IBM builds in things to the next release of z/os that
make it completely impossible for it to run on Hercules? Or z/VM? or z/VSE?

Joe

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:33 AM R.S.  wrote:


And what?
I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?

IBM is aware of illegal users of Hercules + some current OS. They also
know a lot of Hercules users are IBMers.


No, it is nothing pro and against Hercules, piracy, and law. It is just
an observation.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland







W dniu 30.06.2020 o 15:32, Joe Monk pisze:

Call from the IBM Lawyers in  3... 2... 1...

Joe

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:35 AM Jasi Grewal  wrote:


Hi,

I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one
of my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems

that

there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.

I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from
Mainframe to Hercules.
I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the
correct process.
Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules?

That

would be appreciated.

Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Regards,

Jasi Grewal.

--
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==

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tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
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law and may be penalised.

mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-02 Thread Brian Westerman
How much would a hobbyist pay for a Harley, a really nice drone, or some of the 
other expensive hobbies.  People pay upwards of $1K a year for a new phone.  I 
did get a discount on that, but I suppose you are correct, if you can't justify 
the cost, then it might seem too much.  Although, the alternative of doing it 
illegally is not even what I would consider to be an option at all.

--
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-02 Thread Farley, Peter x23353
+1

And it is more like $5600/yr if I read the ADCD pricing correctly at $900/yr to 
continue support for another year ($4700/yr for the one-CPU dongle, $900/yr for 
the ADCD stack).

So that is about equivalent to buying a new SUV on a 5- or 6-year purchase plan 
(not including insurance), or about $500/mo, and then continuing to pay for it 
for as many years as you want/need to run it.

Not like the one-time cost of a Harley at all.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Grant Taylor
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 1:00 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

On 7/1/20 10:19 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
> You can join developerworks and license z/PDT, which is what I and 
> most people do.  It's not that expensive, and it won't kill you like 
> buying that big old Harley-Davidson will.

Does joining DevelperWorks change the pricing?

Because z/PDT (or whatever it's called today) is quite expensive, particulalry 
for hobbyists / students.

I priced it out a few years ago and it was $5,000 per year or $10,000 one time 
w/o any support or updates.

That's decidedly outside of the reach of most hobbyists.

Buying physical equipment and powering it can be less expensive than that.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-02 Thread Grant Taylor

On 7/1/20 10:19 PM, Brian Westerman wrote:
You can join developerworks and license z/PDT, which is what I and 
most people do.  It's not that expensive, and it won't kill you like 
buying that big old Harley-Davidson will.


Does joining DevelperWorks change the pricing?

Because z/PDT (or whatever it's called today) is quite expensive, 
particulalry for hobbyists / students.


I priced it out a few years ago and it was $5,000 per year or $10,000 
one time w/o any support or updates.


That's decidedly outside of the reach of most hobbyists.

Buying physical equipment and powering it can be less expensive than that.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread Brian Westerman
I forgot to mention that there are directions for copying DASD on the CBTtape 
file 659.

Brian

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 05:31:27 +1000, Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

>Hercules isn't nobbled. I know a bloke who knows a bloke who runs Hercules
>and zOS 2.3. This bloke told me that the other bloke did ADRDSSU volume
>dumps and a restore at the other end.
>
>On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, 03:47 Tom Brennan  wrote:
>
>> It wasn't me!  I keep forgetting to lock up my computer when I leave my
>> desk.  http://www.mildredbrennan.com/mvs/toms_computer.png
>>
>> On 7/1/2020 5:53 AM, David Crayford wrote:
>> > On 2020-07-01 8:26 PM, John McKown wrote:
>> >>> And what?
>> >>> I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
>> >>> Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?
>> >>>
>> >> Using TOR (The Onion Router), it would be very difficult to get to your
>> >> specific IP address.
>> >>
>> > haha! How many IBMMAIN users are using the "dark web"?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread Brian Westerman
Maybe you are forgetting the whole backwards compatibility thing.

Do you really think IBM is worried about a bunch of hobbyists writing code or 
reliving their youth on mainframes because they have some "lost" revenue in 
that area?  

You can join developerworks and license z/PDT, which is what I and most people 
do.  It's not that expensive, and it won't kill you like buying that big old 
Harley-Davidson will.

Brian

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 10:11:39 -0500, Joe Monk  wrote:

>"And what?"
>
>How about ... and IBM builds in things to the next release of z/os that
>make it completely impossible for it to run on Hercules? Or z/VM? or z/VSE?
>
>Joe
>
>On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:33 AM R.S.  wrote:
>
>> And what?
>> I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
>> Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?
>>
>> IBM is aware of illegal users of Hercules + some current OS. They also
>> know a lot of Hercules users are IBMers.
>>
>>
>> No, it is nothing pro and against Hercules, piracy, and law. It is just
>> an observation.
>>
>> --
>> Radoslaw Skorupka
>> Lodz, Poland
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> W dniu 30.06.2020 o 15:32, Joe Monk pisze:
>> > Call from the IBM Lawyers in  3... 2... 1...
>> >
>> > Joe
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:35 AM Jasi Grewal  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one
>> >> of my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
>> >> I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems
>> that
>> >> there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.
>> >>
>> >> I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from
>> >> Mainframe to Hercules.
>> >> I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the
>> >> correct process.
>> >> Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules?
>> That
>> >> would be appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Any guidance would be appreciated.
>> >> Thank you in advance,
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Jasi Grewal.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> >>
>> > --
>> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> > .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==
>>
>> Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:
>>
>> - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
>> - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub
>> zapisałeś na dysku).
>> Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może
>> wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia
>> (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania,
>> narusza prawo i może podlegać karze.
>>
>> mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,
>> www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
>> XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP:
>> 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na
>> 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.
>>
>> If you are not the addressee of this message:
>>
>> - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
>> - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have
>> printed out or saved).
>> This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used
>> exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who
>> disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar
>> action, violates the law and may be penalised.
>>
>> mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950
>> Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the
>> Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court
>> Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital
>> amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread Brian Westerman
No, it works with z/OS 2.4, well, there is a small issue, but it's being 
resolved.

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 20:01:41 +0800, David Crayford  wrote:

>Didn't IBM nobble Hercules with recent versions of z/OS which had
>propriety enablement? Basically kills it!
>
>On 2020-07-01 7:32 PM, R.S. wrote:
>> And what?
>> I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
>> Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?
>>
>> IBM is aware of illegal users of Hercules + some current OS. They also
>> know a lot of Hercules users are IBMers.
>>
>>
>> No, it is nothing pro and against Hercules, piracy, and law. It is
>> just an observation.
>>
>
>--
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>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread Wayne Bickerdike
Hercules isn't nobbled. I know a bloke who knows a bloke who runs Hercules
and zOS 2.3. This bloke told me that the other bloke did ADRDSSU volume
dumps and a restore at the other end.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020, 03:47 Tom Brennan  wrote:

> It wasn't me!  I keep forgetting to lock up my computer when I leave my
> desk.  http://www.mildredbrennan.com/mvs/toms_computer.png
>
> On 7/1/2020 5:53 AM, David Crayford wrote:
> > On 2020-07-01 8:26 PM, John McKown wrote:
> >>> And what?
> >>> I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
> >>> Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?
> >>>
> >> Using TOR (The Onion Router), it would be very difficult to get to your
> >> specific IP address.
> >>
> > haha! How many IBMMAIN users are using the "dark web"?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread Tom Brennan
It wasn't me!  I keep forgetting to lock up my computer when I leave my 
desk.  http://www.mildredbrennan.com/mvs/toms_computer.png


On 7/1/2020 5:53 AM, David Crayford wrote:

On 2020-07-01 8:26 PM, John McKown wrote:

And what?
I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?


Using TOR (The Onion Router), it would be very difficult to get to your
specific IP address.


haha! How many IBMMAIN users are using the "dark web"?



--
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread Joe Monk
"And what?"

How about ... and IBM builds in things to the next release of z/os that
make it completely impossible for it to run on Hercules? Or z/VM? or z/VSE?

Joe

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:33 AM R.S.  wrote:

> And what?
> I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
> Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?
>
> IBM is aware of illegal users of Hercules + some current OS. They also
> know a lot of Hercules users are IBMers.
>
>
> No, it is nothing pro and against Hercules, piracy, and law. It is just
> an observation.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> W dniu 30.06.2020 o 15:32, Joe Monk pisze:
> > Call from the IBM Lawyers in  3... 2... 1...
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:35 AM Jasi Grewal  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one
> >> of my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
> >> I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems
> that
> >> there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.
> >>
> >> I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from
> >> Mainframe to Hercules.
> >> I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the
> >> correct process.
> >> Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules?
> That
> >> would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Any guidance would be appreciated.
> >> Thank you in advance,
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Jasi Grewal.
> >>
> >> --
> >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> > .
>
>
>
>
> ==
>
> Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:
>
> - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
> - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub
> zapisałeś na dysku).
> Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może
> wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia
> (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania,
> narusza prawo i może podlegać karze.
>
> mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,
> www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
> XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP:
> 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na
> 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.
>
> If you are not the addressee of this message:
>
> - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
> - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have
> printed out or saved).
> This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used
> exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who
> disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar
> action, violates the law and may be penalised.
>
> mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950
> Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the
> Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court
> Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital
> amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread R.S.

W dniu 01.07.2020 o 14:53, David Crayford pisze:

On 2020-07-01 8:26 PM, John McKown wrote:

And what?
I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?


Using TOR (The Onion Router), it would be very difficult to get to your
specific IP address.


haha! How many IBMMAIN users are using the "dark web"?


It is not necessary. There are much simpler and "good enough" methods to 
hide someone's IP. Examples:

- use open Wifi
- use neighbours Wifi (I know a guy who worked many months using such Wifi)
- use some "proxy tools" which redirect your web browser or even whole 
system to another country. Some of them by design leave no traces - this 
is good for sites limited "only of US" or other country.

- ask colleague to write a question

Last, but not least: I strongly doubt IBM would make any effort to 
investigate anything else than name and email address. And this should 
end this thread.


IMHO much more interesting is technical question: how to migrate real 
3390 volume to Hercules. I'm not Hercules user, however I believe there 
is such tool up and ready.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





==

Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:

- powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
- usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś 
na dysku).
Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać 
tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
- delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have 
printed out or saved).
This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used 
exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates 
(copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the 
law and may be penalised.

mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread David Crayford

On 2020-07-01 8:26 PM, John McKown wrote:

And what?
I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?


Using TOR (The Onion Router), it would be very difficult to get to your
specific IP address.


haha! How many IBMMAIN users are using the "dark web"?



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread John McKown
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 6:33 AM R.S.  wrote:

> And what?
> I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
> Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?
>

Using TOR (The Onion Router), it would be very difficult to get to your
specific IP address.


> IBM is aware of illegal users of Hercules + some current OS. They also
> know a lot of Hercules users are IBMers.
>
>
> No, it is nothing pro and against Hercules, piracy, and law. It is just
> an observation.
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> W dniu 30.06.2020 o 15:32, Joe Monk pisze:
> > Call from the IBM Lawyers in  3... 2... 1...
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:35 AM Jasi Grewal  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one
> >> of my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
> >> I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems
> that
> >> there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.
> >>
> >> I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from
> >> Mainframe to Hercules.
> >> I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the
> >> correct process.
> >> Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules?
> That
> >> would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Any guidance would be appreciated.
> >> Thank you in advance,
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Jasi Grewal.
> >>
> >> --
> >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> > .
>
>
>
>
> ==
>
> Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:
>
> - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
> - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub
> zapisałeś na dysku).
> Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może
> wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia
> (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania,
> narusza prawo i może podlegać karze.
>
> mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,
> www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
> XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP:
> 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na
> 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.
>
> If you are not the addressee of this message:
>
> - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
> - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have
> printed out or saved).
> This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used
> exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who
> disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar
> action, violates the law and may be penalised.
>
> mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950
> Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the
> Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court
> Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital
> amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

--
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread David Crayford
Didn't IBM nobble Hercules with recent versions of z/OS which had 
propriety enablement? Basically kills it!


On 2020-07-01 7:32 PM, R.S. wrote:

And what?
I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?

IBM is aware of illegal users of Hercules + some current OS. They also 
know a lot of Hercules users are IBMers.



No, it is nothing pro and against Hercules, piracy, and law. It is 
just an observation.




--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-07-01 Thread R.S.

And what?
I can subscribe to IBM-MAIN using John Doe and some anonymous email.
Will they track the IP from Joh Doe sent the message?

IBM is aware of illegal users of Hercules + some current OS. They also 
know a lot of Hercules users are IBMers.



No, it is nothing pro and against Hercules, piracy, and law. It is just 
an observation.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland







W dniu 30.06.2020 o 15:32, Joe Monk pisze:

Call from the IBM Lawyers in  3... 2... 1...

Joe

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:35 AM Jasi Grewal  wrote:


Hi,

I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one
of my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems that
there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.

I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from
Mainframe to Hercules.
I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the
correct process.
Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules? That
would be appreciated.

Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Regards,

Jasi Grewal.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
.





==

Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:

- powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
- usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś 
na dysku).
Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać 
tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) 
tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać 
karze.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. 
Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, 
NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 
01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.

If you are not the addressee of this message:

- let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
- delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have 
printed out or saved).
This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used 
exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates 
(copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the 
law and may be penalised.

mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 
Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital 
City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 
025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 
169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Jasi Grewal
Hi Mike and Joe,

This is to inform you that they have it working now and we suspect that it 
might have been the process in transmitting DASD volume to Hercules that was 
causing issues but the good thing is that is working.

Your continous support and responses are very much appreciated, Friends.

Thank You and Wishes you Beautiful day.
Regards,
Jasi.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Mike Schwab
What version of Hercules?  Only a few latest versions support a volume that big.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:41 PM Jasi Grewal  wrote:
>
> Hi Mike and Joe,
>
> Sorry about not providing model but is Model 27 rescue volume and I created 1 
> Rescue z/OS v2r3 System.
> I will get my IBM friends to look for tapeconv.jcl on z/OS IBM System and 
> then use that instead of using IBM zVM DDR+Terse.
>
> Your continous support and responses are very much appreciated, Friends.
>
> Thank You in advance,
> Regards,
> Jasi.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Jasi Grewal
Hi Mike and Joe,

Sorry about not providing model but is Model 27 rescue volume and I created 1 
Rescue z/OS v2r3 System.
I will get my IBM friends to look for tapeconv.jcl on z/OS IBM System and then 
use that instead of using IBM zVM DDR+Terse.

Your continous support and responses are very much appreciated, Friends.

Thank You in advance,
Regards,
Jasi.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Joe Monk
what model DASD?

Joe

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:00 AM Jasi Grewal  wrote:

> Thank You Mike for response and am an IBM Retiree and continues to work
> with IBMers.
> I am requesting IBMers to verify the Licensing and the message we are
> getting is that it cannot find PLPA dataset and yet the same IPL v2r3
> volser was able to IPL v2r3 System successfully under the IBM Mainframe
> host system.
>
> Thanks again,
> Jasi.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Mike Schwab
Can you download a rescue IPL volume to define the dataset?  Or
download an idled Paging pack with this on it and add to
configuration?  Being in use may have made the copy bad.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jasi Grewal  wrote:
>
> Thank You Mike for response and am an IBM Retiree and continues to work with 
> IBMers.
> I am requesting IBMers to verify the Licensing and the message we are getting 
> is that it cannot find PLPA dataset and yet the same IPL v2r3 volser was able 
> to IPL v2r3 System successfully under the IBM Mainframe host system.
>
> Thanks again,
> Jasi.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Jasi Grewal
Thank You Mike for response and am an IBM Retiree and continues to work with 
IBMers.
I am requesting IBMers to verify the Licensing and the message we are getting 
is that it cannot find PLPA dataset and yet the same IPL v2r3 volser was able 
to IPL v2r3 System successfully under the IBM Mainframe host system. 

Thanks again,
Jasi.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Joe Monk
Call from the IBM Lawyers in  3... 2... 1...

Joe

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:35 AM Jasi Grewal  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one
> of my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
> I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems that
> there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.
>
> I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from
> Mainframe to Hercules.
> I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the
> correct process.
> Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules? That
> would be appreciated.
>
> Any guidance would be appreciated.
> Thank you in advance,
> Regards,
>
> Jasi Grewal.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Mike Schwab
If you are only testing on Hercules and will continue to run
production on IBM z series hardware, I believe IBM doesn't care.  But
the SOFTWARE does check the hardware levels and you have to include a
particular configuration statement for a recent Z operating system to
run on Hercules.  But if you post the exact message we can help you
figure out the problem you are actually experiencing.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 10:54 AM Binyamin Dissen
 wrote:
>
> Have you complied with the licensing requirements?
>
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 05:25:23 -0500 Jasi Grewal  wrote:
>
> :>I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one of 
> my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
> :>I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems that 
> there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.
>
> :>I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from 
> Mainframe to Hercules.
> :>I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the 
> correct process.
> :>Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules? That 
> would be appreciated.
>
> :>Any guidance would be appreciated.
> :>Thank you in advance,
> :>Regards,
>
> :>Jasi Grewal.
>
> --
> Binyamin Dissen 
> http://www.dissensoftware.com
>
> Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel
>
>
> Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
> you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.
>
> I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
> especially those from irresponsible companies.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Seymour J Metz
There is currently no legal way. Now if IBM ever offers a z/OS license for use 
under Hercules, ...

Meanwhile, can you IPL OS/VS2 R3.8?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jasi Grewal [ja...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 6:25 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

Hi,

I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one of my 
z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems that 
there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.

I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from 
Mainframe to Hercules.
I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the correct 
process.
Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules? That would 
be appreciated.

Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Regards,

Jasi Grewal.

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Re: Migrate z/OS DASD volumes from Mainframe to Hercules Environment

2020-06-30 Thread Binyamin Dissen
Have you complied with the licensing requirements?

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 05:25:23 -0500 Jasi Grewal  wrote:

:>I am sorry I am just learning Hercules Systems and trying to migrate one of 
my z/OS DASD Systems from Mainframe to Hercules Environment.
:>I have z/VM running on Hercules but when I tries to IPL z/OS it seems that 
there is a corruption and that is most probably cause of wrong process.

:>I believe that there must be some method to migrate the z/OS DASD from 
Mainframe to Hercules.
:>I used z/VM DDR+Terse to migrate zOS Dasd but I don't think that is the 
correct process.
:>Is there a Documentation in how to migrate z/OS Systems to Hercules? That 
would be appreciated.

:>Any guidance would be appreciated.
:>Thank you in advance,
:>Regards,

:>Jasi Grewal.

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Binyamin Dissen 
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Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel


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