Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[WILLIAM FAIRCHILD]

JCL is comparable to the US Postal Service's terminology involved in mailing a 
letter or shipping a package.  Mail sending has words like sender, recipient, 
postage, postage due (this one is more of an artifact now), telephone number of 
recipient, etc.  JCL tells the operating system how to execute one or more 
programs, all of which have been created using some kind of programming 
language, such as FORTRAN, PL/1, Assembler, HLASM, COBOL, RPG, etc., and where 
these programs can find the data files they need when running.  JCL is a 
language, definitely, but not a programming language.  It is an execution-time 
language.  Consider the expansion its acronym - Job Control Language.  JCL 
controls a computer "job", not individual pieces of data or storage.

To understand what JCL is, you must understand what a "job" is.
Another approach would be to find a copy of IBM's technical manual titled 
something like "Job Control Language" and read the first few paragraphs or 
pages of the text.

A job is not the same as a program, or an execution-time instruction within a 
program, or the data that said program needs to work with when it is executing.

Bill Fairchild
Columbia, South Carolina
USA

Awareness is the precursor to change.

> On 11/11/2024 8:21 PM EST Bob Bridges 
> <0587168ababf-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
>  
> Hm, I may have to cede this point.  It's why I like these discussions.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.  -Voltaire */
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Schmitt, Michael
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 14:48
> 
> I plant my stake firmly in the "JCL is not a programming language" camp. It 
> is a /control/ language.
> 
> Whether it could be considered a scripting language or not depends on your 
> definition. I'll say /yes/: some scripting languages are also programming 
> languages but not all.
> 
> For example, you can have a simple language for scripting TN3270 screens, 
> that just plugs in values and waits for the response, but has no other 
> decision or branching logic. Or take BTI (Batch Terminal Interface) scripts 
> for CA-7: they're just a series of commands, but no logic.
> 
> As for /why/ JCL isn't a programming language: as was pointed out, it isn't 
> self-sufficient. It can't even run without reference to other programs, which 
> are /not/ part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output. It can't set 
> variables while running. While it can sort of branch based on return codes, 
> it has no way to set the return codes. It can't even display "Hello, World".
> 
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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

Since you asked me, I respond: I DON'T CARE.
Personally I would say "DFSORT command syntax". Not even script.
However it doesn't matter. I wouldn't be going to correct anyone saying 
"I wrote a program in DFSORT".


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




W dniu 13.11.2024 o 09:17, Jack Zukt pisze:

Hi
Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic,
variables, it can compute, change data...
Regards
Jack

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024, 00:16 Phil Smith III  wrote:


Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:

Short answer: NO WAY.
However you can use some *programming* language for that, including REXX.
Simple explanation:
JCL is *not* a programming language.
JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one
more time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to
be a 'programming language'"?

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various
scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy
that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove
anything. Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them
right or wrong by some objective definition?

Thoughts?

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

I  would consider a functional language, with selection and recursion but no 
variables, to be a programming language. Not a convenient one IMHO.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Joel Ewing <070400eb8eab-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2024 9:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

External Message: Use Caution


Clearly any language that has enough features to write the logic to
implement a Universal Turing Machine should be called a programming
language, since only the hardware speed and memory limitations and
limitations of specific implementations of the language on hardware, not
the language itself, limits what can be computed.

I would argue that any language that lacks the capability to save and
manipulate variable values clearly is not a programming language.   A
language with that capability but without some ability for repetition
(loops or recursion) or without conditional logic might be a programming
language, but its usefulness would be extremely limited.

In between?   If you can pick multiple simple algorithms that can be
implemented in some form in all the commonly-known programming languages
and none of thos algorithms can be expressed in a language in question,
then pretty good odds that language shouldn't be called a programming
language.

 JC Ewing

On 11/13/24 6:42 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> What about loops or recursion?
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
> נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר
>
>
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Jack Zukt <059cd493dd41-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2024 3:17 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly
>
> External Message: Use Caution
>
>
> Hi
> Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic,
> variables, it can compute, change data...
> Regards
> Jack
>
> On Mon, Nov 11, 2024, 00:16 Phil Smith III  wrote:
>
>> Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
>>> Short answer: NO WAY.
>>> However you can use some *programming* language for that, including REXX.
>>> Simple explanation:
>>> JCL is *not* a programming language.
>>> JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.
>> First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one
>> more time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to
>> be a 'programming language'"?
>>
>> Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various
>> scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy
>> that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove
>> anything. Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them
>> right or wrong by some objective definition?
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> --
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--
Joel C Ewing

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

Script was extensible early on, and GML was not the first extension that IBM 
shipped.

I once used SCRIPTW to generate a tape schedule for backups.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Matt Hogstrom 
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2024 9:35 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

External Message: Use Caution


Script … I would think the control statements more clearly align with scripting 
than a full fledged language / runtime that is extensible.

--
Matt Hogstrom

“To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough 
time.”
- Leonard Bernstein

> On Nov 13, 2024, at 03:17, Jack Zukt 
> <059cd493dd41-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi
> Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic,
> variables, it can compute, change data...
> Regards
> Jack


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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

Script was extensible long before DCF and GML. However, computational tasks are 
much easier in other languages.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2024 10:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

External Message: Use Caution


OTOH the various GML implementations built on top of DCF argue pretty 
convincingly for at least some extensibility, no?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Matt Hogstrom
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2024 9:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Script … I would think the control statements more clearly align with scripting 
than a full fledged language / runtime that is extensible.

--
Matt Hogstrom

“To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough 
time.”
- Leonard Bernstein

> On Nov 13, 2024, at 03:17, Jack Zukt 
> <059cd493dd41-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi
> Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic,
> variables, it can compute, change data...
> Regards
> Jack


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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Phil Smith III]

OTOH the various GML implementations built on top of DCF argue pretty 
convincingly for at least some extensibility, no?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Matt Hogstrom
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2024 9:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Script … I would think the control statements more clearly align with scripting 
than a full fledged language / runtime that is extensible.

--
Matt Hogstrom

“To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough 
time.”
- Leonard Bernstein

> On Nov 13, 2024, at 03:17, Jack Zukt 
> <059cd493dd41-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic, 
> variables, it can compute, change data...
> Regards
> Jack


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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Matt Hogstrom]

Script … I would think the control statements more clearly align with scripting 
than a full fledged language / runtime that is extensible.

-- 
Matt Hogstrom

“To achieve great things two things are needed: a plan, and not quite enough 
time.”
- Leonard Bernstein

> On Nov 13, 2024, at 03:17, Jack Zukt 
> <059cd493dd41-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic,
> variables, it can compute, change data...
> Regards
> Jack


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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Joel Ewing]

Clearly any language that has enough features to write the logic to 
implement a Universal Turing Machine should be called a programming 
language, since only the hardware speed and memory limitations and  
limitations of specific implementations of the language on hardware, not 
the language itself, limits what can be computed.


I would argue that any language that lacks the capability to save and 
manipulate variable values clearly is not a programming language.   A 
language with that capability but without some ability for repetition 
(loops or recursion) or without conditional logic might be a programming 
language, but its usefulness would be extremely limited.


In between?   If you can pick multiple simple algorithms that can be 
implemented in some form in all the commonly-known programming languages 
and none of thos algorithms can be expressed in a language in question, 
then pretty good odds that language shouldn't be called a programming 
language.


    JC Ewing

On 11/13/24 6:42 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

What about loops or recursion?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Jack Zukt 
<059cd493dd41-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2024 3:17 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

External Message: Use Caution


Hi
Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic,
variables, it can compute, change data...
Regards
Jack

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024, 00:16 Phil Smith III  wrote:


Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:

Short answer: NO WAY.
However you can use some *programming* language for that, including REXX.
Simple explanation:
JCL is *not* a programming language.
JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one
more time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to
be a 'programming language'"?

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various
scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy
that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove
anything. Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them
right or wrong by some objective definition?

Thoughts?

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Jack Zukt]

Hi
Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic,
variables, it can compute, change data...
Regards
Jack

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024, 00:16 Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
> >Short answer: NO WAY.
> >However you can use some *programming* language for that, including REXX.
>
> >Simple explanation:
> >JCL is *not* a programming language.
> >JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.
>
> First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one
> more time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to
> be a 'programming language'"?
>
> Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various
> scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy
> that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove
> anything. Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them
> right or wrong by some objective definition?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

What about loops or recursion?

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jack Zukt <059cd493dd41-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2024 3:17 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

External Message: Use Caution


Hi
Would you call DFSORT a programing language? It has conditional logic,
variables, it can compute, change data...
Regards
Jack

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024, 00:16 Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
> >Short answer: NO WAY.
> >However you can use some *programming* language for that, including REXX.
>
> >Simple explanation:
> >JCL is *not* a programming language.
> >JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.
>
> First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one
> more time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to
> be a 'programming language'"?
>
> Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various
> scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy
> that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove
> anything. Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them
> right or wrong by some objective definition?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Phil Smith III]

A scripting language that doesn't even let you say "If this command fails, 
stop" is a very stupid language, one that I'd be astonished even existed. OK, 
not astonished, just disappointed...

Anyone know of one?

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Radoslaw Skorupka
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2024 5:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

To complement: MS-DOS .bat had both conditional logic (errorlevel) and loop 
(for) I can't remember dates, but AFAIR conditional logic was introduced with 
MS-DOS v6.00 and probably the loop already was there.
For sure I was using the loops and conditionals on Win95. Does it qualify as 
MS-DOS? Actually I don't care. ;-)

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 12.11.2024 o 15:33, Rick Troth pisze:
> MS-DOS batch does have conditional logic.
>
> I was going to chime in that a "programming language" must have at 
> least that: conditional logic.
> Phil initially asked if looping is required, but conditional logic 
> along with branching quickly gives us looping.
>
> IT MAY BE that to qualify as a "scripting language" does not require 
> conditional logic.
> Until this thought, I would have considered any scripting language to 
> also be a "programming language".
> As it is, all scripting languages that I know of (including CLIST) are 
> also programming languages.
>
>
> -- R; <><
>
>
>
> On 11/11/24 2:13 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
>> I don't remember either, but I do remember that Relay had "Beyond 
>> .bat", a .bat-like language that did a lot more, used for Relay/Gold 
>> emulator scripting. That suggests that it was pretty weak. Doesn't 
>> mean anything you said isn't right, of course. (And I'm NOT sorry 
>> that I don't remember those details--best forgotten!)
>>
>> -Original Message-----
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
>> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:11 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on 
>> the fly
>>
>> My recollection is that BAT had conditional logic since the original 
>> PC-DOS; I don't recall what it was like in CP/M. CLIST, OTOH, became 
>> a programming language in OS/VS3 3.8,  as I recall. I may check 
>> bitsavers on that last.
>>

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

To complement: MS-DOS .bat had both conditional logic (errorlevel) and 
loop (for)
I can't remember dates, but AFAIR conditional logic was introduced with 
MS-DOS v6.00 and probably the loop already was there.
For sure I was using the loops and conditionals on Win95. Does it 
qualify as MS-DOS? Actually I don't care. ;-)


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 12.11.2024 o 15:33, Rick Troth pisze:

MS-DOS batch does have conditional logic.

I was going to chime in that a "programming language" must have at 
least that: conditional logic.
Phil initially asked if looping is required, but conditional logic 
along with branching quickly gives us looping.


IT MAY BE that to qualify as a "scripting language" does not require 
conditional logic.
Until this thought, I would have considered any scripting language to 
also be a "programming language".
As it is, all scripting languages that I know of (including CLIST) are 
also programming languages.



-- R; <><



On 11/11/24 2:13 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
I don't remember either, but I do remember that Relay had "Beyond 
.bat", a .bat-like language that did a lot more, used for Relay/Gold 
emulator scripting. That suggests that it was pretty weak. Doesn't 
mean anything you said isn't right, of course. (And I'm NOT sorry 
that I don't remember those details--best forgotten!)


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz

Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on 
the fly


My recollection is that BAT had conditional logic since the original 
PC-DOS; I don't recall what it was like in CP/M. CLIST, OTOH, became 
a programming language in OS/VS3 3.8,  as I recall. I may check 
bitsavers on that last.




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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Gary Weinhold]

See "The Sachertorte Algorithm and Other Antidotes to Computer Anxiety" by John 
Shore
Viking 1985 (ISBN 0-670-8541-6)

Radoslaw wrote (snipped);
Of course first answer may rise another question: what is a program?
And the second one may rise: Who said that?

However such discussion may lead to interesting (or not) results. Is
cooking recipe a program? You can find loops, variables, conditions,
etc. It is written in Polish. Or English. 🙂



--

Gary Weinhold
Senior Application Architect
DATAKINETICS | Data Performance & Optimization
Phone:+1.613.523.5500 x216
Email: weinh...@dkl.com
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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

Yes, but was that there originally or added later?

-- 
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http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Rick Troth <058ff5c2d0a7-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2024 9:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not 
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
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MS-DOS batch does have conditional logic.

I was going to chime in that a "programming language" must have at least
that: conditional logic.
Phil initially asked if looping is required, but conditional logic along
with branching quickly gives us looping.

IT MAY BE that to qualify as a "scripting language" does not require
conditional logic.
Until this thought, I would have considered any scripting language to
also be a "programming language".
As it is, all scripting languages that I know of (including CLIST) are
also programming languages.


-- R; <><



On 11/11/24 2:13 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:
> I don't remember either, but I do remember that Relay had "Beyond .bat", a 
> .bat-like language that did a lot more, used for Relay/Gold emulator 
> scripting. That suggests that it was pretty weak. Doesn't mean anything you 
> said isn't right, of course. (And I'm NOT sorry that I don't remember those 
> details--best forgotten!)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:11 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly
>
> My recollection is that BAT had conditional logic since the original PC-DOS; 
> I don't recall what it was like in CP/M. CLIST, OTOH, became a programming 
> language in OS/VS3 3.8,  as I recall. I may check bitsavers on that last.
>
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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

I could see a way of distinction in this area as something like this, with 
"element" equal to something like a "program statement": 

* Can not set a condition as a separate element  =  A command.  
* Can set a condition as a separate element but not set an arbitrary (more or 
less) variable as a separate element = A script. 
* Can set a condition as a separate element and set an arbitrary (more or less) 
variable as a separate element = A programming language. 

Thomas Berg

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Rick Troth]

MS-DOS batch does have conditional logic.

I was going to chime in that a "programming language" must have at least 
that: conditional logic.
Phil initially asked if looping is required, but conditional logic along 
with branching quickly gives us looping.


IT MAY BE that to qualify as a "scripting language" does not require 
conditional logic.
Until this thought, I would have considered any scripting language to 
also be a "programming language".
As it is, all scripting languages that I know of (including CLIST) are 
also programming languages.



-- R; <><



On 11/11/24 2:13 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:

I don't remember either, but I do remember that Relay had "Beyond .bat", a 
.bat-like language that did a lot more, used for Relay/Gold emulator scripting. That 
suggests that it was pretty weak. Doesn't mean anything you said isn't right, of course. 
(And I'm NOT sorry that I don't remember those details--best forgotten!)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

My recollection is that BAT had conditional logic since the original PC-DOS; I 
don't recall what it was like in CP/M. CLIST, OTOH, became a programming 
language in OS/VS3 3.8,  as I recall. I may check bitsavers on that last.

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Lennie Bradshaw]

I only used CLIST for a very short time on SVS (i.e. prior to OS/VS2 3.8) but I 
think there was some kind of logic which could branch on return codes.
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: 11 November 2024 19:11
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

My recollection is that BAT had conditional logic since the original PC-DOS; I 
don't recall what it was like in CP/M. CLIST, OTOH, became a programming 
language in OS/VS3 3.8,  as I recall. I may check bitsavers on that last.

-- 
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http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges <0587168ababf-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not 
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I've thought about this question ("can JCL be considered a programming 
language?") for some years.  I usually include it in my list of languages, but 
I almost always add "sort of".  Still, during my most recent job interview, my 
potential boss definitely agreed with me:  It counts.

So did it count only after it had IF statements?  But no, the COND parm 
qualifies as a sort of IF, doesn't it?

JCL is very much like PC-DOS' batch language, which originally was just a 
scripting tool ("run this program, now run this program..."); I think we mostly 
call .bat a "language" too.  Not sure what if anything that proves.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The Christian is in a different position from other people who are 
trying to be good.  They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one, or 
— if they think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good 
men.  But the Christiandoes not think God will love us because we are good, 
but that God will make us good because He loves us  -from _What Christians 
Believe_ by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 19:16

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one more 
time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a 
'programming language'"?

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various 
scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy 
that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything. 
Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or wrong 
by some objective definition?

Thoughts?

--- Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
>JCL is *not* a programming language.
>JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Tom Brennan]

I explain it as simply a table of things to do, and I try not to use the 
L-word.


On 11/11/2024 6:39 PM, Don Leahy wrote:

When explaining it to newcomers I describe JCL as a special type of
scripting language where the logic flows in just one direction.  No loops,
no backwards branching, etc.  ironically, JCL’s limitations in that regard
make it easier to develop scheduling and restart management software.
Being user unfriendly is just a bonus.  :-)

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 20:21 Bob Bridges <
0587168ababf-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


Hm, I may have to cede this point.  It's why I like these discussions.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.  -Voltaire
*/

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
Of Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 14:48

I plant my stake firmly in the "JCL is not a programming language" camp.
It is a /control/ language.

Whether it could be considered a scripting language or not depends on your
definition. I'll say /yes/: some scripting languages are also programming
languages but not all.

For example, you can have a simple language for scripting TN3270 screens,
that just plugs in values and waits for the response, but has no other
decision or branching logic. Or take BTI (Batch Terminal Interface) scripts
for CA-7: they're just a series of commands, but no logic.

As for /why/ JCL isn't a programming language: as was pointed out, it
isn't self-sufficient. It can't even run without reference to other
programs, which are /not/ part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output.
It can't set variables while running. While it can sort of branch based on
return codes, it has no way to set the return codes. It can't even display
"Hello, World".

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Don Leahy]

When explaining it to newcomers I describe JCL as a special type of
scripting language where the logic flows in just one direction.  No loops,
no backwards branching, etc.  ironically, JCL’s limitations in that regard
make it easier to develop scheduling and restart management software.
Being user unfriendly is just a bonus.  :-)

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 20:21 Bob Bridges <
0587168ababf-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Hm, I may have to cede this point.  It's why I like these discussions.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.  -Voltaire
> */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Schmitt, Michael
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 14:48
>
> I plant my stake firmly in the "JCL is not a programming language" camp.
> It is a /control/ language.
>
> Whether it could be considered a scripting language or not depends on your
> definition. I'll say /yes/: some scripting languages are also programming
> languages but not all.
>
> For example, you can have a simple language for scripting TN3270 screens,
> that just plugs in values and waits for the response, but has no other
> decision or branching logic. Or take BTI (Batch Terminal Interface) scripts
> for CA-7: they're just a series of commands, but no logic.
>
> As for /why/ JCL isn't a programming language: as was pointed out, it
> isn't self-sufficient. It can't even run without reference to other
> programs, which are /not/ part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output.
> It can't set variables while running. While it can sort of branch based on
> return codes, it has no way to set the return codes. It can't even display
> "Hello, World".
>
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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Bob Bridges]

Hm, I may have to cede this point.  It's why I like these discussions.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.  -Voltaire */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 14:48

I plant my stake firmly in the "JCL is not a programming language" camp. It is 
a /control/ language.

Whether it could be considered a scripting language or not depends on your 
definition. I'll say /yes/: some scripting languages are also programming 
languages but not all.

For example, you can have a simple language for scripting TN3270 screens, that 
just plugs in values and waits for the response, but has no other decision or 
branching logic. Or take BTI (Batch Terminal Interface) scripts for CA-7: 
they're just a series of commands, but no logic.

As for /why/ JCL isn't a programming language: as was pointed out, it isn't 
self-sufficient. It can't even run without reference to other programs, which 
are /not/ part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output. It can't set 
variables while running. While it can sort of branch based on return codes, it 
has no way to set the return codes. It can't even display "Hello, World".

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Jay Maynard]

C certainly run without stdlib. I spent a few years developing embedded
systems in C with no stdlib.

On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 2:45 PM Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Continuing this Socratic discussion, Michael Schmitt wrote, in part:
> >It can't even run without reference to other programs, which are /not/
> >part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output.
>
> Neither can C without stdlib, right? Just sayin'...
>
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-- 
Jay Maynard

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Schmitt, Michael]

I knew someone would bring that up.

I think the difference is stdlib comes with the C compiler "and library". I 
don't consider the Data Facility Product (DFP) to be part of JES.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:45 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Continuing this Socratic discussion, Michael Schmitt wrote, in part:
>It can't even run without reference to other programs, which are /not/
>part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output.

Neither can C without stdlib, right? Just sayin'...

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Phil Smith III]

Continuing this Socratic discussion, Michael Schmitt wrote, in part:
>It can't even run without reference to other programs, which are /not/
>part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output.

Neither can C without stdlib, right? Just sayin'...

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Thomas Berg]

I could see a way of distinction in this area as something like this, with
"element" equal to something like a "program statement":

* Can not set a condition as a separate element  =  A command.
* Can set a condition as a separate element but not set an arbitrary (more
or less) variable as a separate element = A script.
* Can set a condition as a separate element and set an arbitrary (more or
less) variable as a separate element = A programming language.

Thomas Berg

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[rpinion865]

Unless I missed it, has anyone spoken of Clem Clarke's JOL?  This is not a 
product which has official support.

https://hercules-os380.yahoogroups.narkive.com/6Q2YsqGZ/jol-next-generation-jcl-was-jcl-what-is-it-and-what-could-it-be



"Confidentially doc, I am the wabbit."

Bugs Bunny

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Monday, November 11th, 2024 at 2:47 PM, Schmitt, Michael 
 wrote:

> I plant my stake firmly in the "JCL is not a programming language" camp. It 
> is a /control/ language.
> 
> Whether it could be considered a scripting language or not depends on your 
> definition. I'll say /yes/: some scripting languages are also programming 
> languages but not all.
> 
> For example, you can have a simple language for scripting TN3270 screens, 
> that just plugs in values and waits for the response, but has no other 
> decision or branching logic. Or take BTI (Batch Terminal Interface) scripts 
> for CA-7: they're just a series of commands, but no logic.
> 
> 
> As for /why/ JCL isn't a programming language: as was pointed out, it isn't 
> self-sufficient. It can't even run without reference to other programs, which 
> are /not/ part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output. It can't set 
> variables while running. While it can sort of branch based on return codes, 
> it has no way to set the return codes. It can't even display "Hello, World".
> 
> 
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Schmitt, Michael]

I plant my stake firmly in the "JCL is not a programming language" camp. It is 
a /control/ language.

Whether it could be considered a scripting language or not depends on your 
definition. I'll say /yes/: some scripting languages are also programming 
languages but not all.

For example, you can have a simple language for scripting TN3270 screens, that 
just plugs in values and waits for the response, but has no other decision or 
branching logic. Or take BTI (Batch Terminal Interface) scripts for CA-7: 
they're just a series of commands, but no logic.


As for /why/ JCL isn't a programming language: as was pointed out, it isn't 
self-sufficient. It can't even run without reference to other programs, which 
are /not/ part of JCL or JES. It can't do input or output. It can't set 
variables while running. While it can sort of branch based on return codes, it 
has no way to set the return codes. It can't even display "Hello, World".



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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

Lamba doesn't modify the existing code; it adds a sublist. I'd consider it 
equivalent to changing a table in a data-driven program.

ALTER effectively sets a label variable and can be implemented with read-only 
code.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not 
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On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 19:21:28 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Why would you consider lamba to be self modifying? Isn't it just a procedure 
>definition?
>
Isn't procedure definition at runtime self-modification?

ALTER?

--
gil

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 19:21:28 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Why would you consider lamba to be self modifying? Isn't it just a procedure 
>definition?
> 
Isn't procedure definition at runtime self-modification?

ALTER?

-- 
gil

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[rpinion865]

"self modifying code" is that not AI?  Or am I getting that confused with 
Colossus, The Forbin Project? 



"Confidentially doc, I am the wabbit."

Bugs Bunny

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On Monday, November 11th, 2024 at 2:18 PM, Dave Gibney 
<06fb76de82cb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Yes, I see I misread his statement
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU On
> > Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 11:04 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> > fly
> > 
> > "So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self 
> > modifying
> > code at runtime, it's not a programming language?" is totally unrelated to
> > anything he wrote.
> > 
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> > עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
> > נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר
> > 
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU on
> > behalf of Dave Gibney <06fb76de82cb-dmarc-
> > requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:45 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> > fly
> > 
> > Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do 
> > not
> > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
> > content is safe.
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU On
> > > Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 10:42 AM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> > > fly
> > > 
> > > Joel Ewing wrote, in part, on the original thread:
> > > 
> > > > There are many such solutions to get around the fact that JCL is not a
> > > > programming language and is static at execution time.
> > 
> > So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self 
> > modifying
> > code at runtime, it's not a programming language?
> > 
> > > So (and yes, I realize that's an AND): is "static at execution time" a 
> > > disqualifier
> > > in the Am I A Programming Language sweepstakes?
> > > 
> > > While this is academic, I'm actually seriously interested in this. And of 
> > > course
> > > maybe it's unanswerable in any meaningful, definitive way!
> > > 
> > > Almost makes me wish I had a CS degree. OK, not really.
> > > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU On
> > > Behalf Of Bob Bridges
> > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:27 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> > > fly
> > > 
> > > I've thought about this question ("can JCL be considered a programming
> > > language?") for some years. I usually include it in my list of languages, 
> > > but I
> > > almost always add "sort of". Still, during my most recent job interview, 
> > > my
> > > potential boss definitely agreed with me: It counts.
> > > 
> > > So did it count only after it had IF statements? But no, the COND parm
> > > qualifies as a sort of IF, doesn't it?
> > > 
> > > JCL is very much like PC-DOS' batch language, which originally was just a
> > > scripting tool ("run this program, now run this program..."); I think we
> > > mostly
> > > call .bat a "language" too. Not sure what if anything that proves.
> > > 
> > > ---
> > > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> > > 
> > > /* The Christian is in a different position from other people who are 
> > > trying
> > > to
> > > be good. They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one, or — if
> > > they
> > > think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good men.
> > > But the Christiandoes not think God will love us because we are good, 
> > > but
> > > that God 

Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

Why would you consider lamba to be self modifying? Isn't it just a procedure 
definition?

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not 
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
content is safe.


On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 19:04:02 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>"So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self 
>modifying code at runtime, it's not a programming language?" is totally 
>unrelated to anything he wrote.
>
Should LISP's LAMBDA be considered "self modifying"?  Likewise function
definitions in POSIX shell?

--
gil

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Dave Gibney]

Yes, I see I misread his statement

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 11:04 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> fly
> 
> "So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self 
> modifying
> code at runtime, it's not a programming language?" is totally unrelated to
> anything he wrote.
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
> נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> behalf of Dave Gibney <06fb76de82cb-dmarc-
> requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:45 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> fly
> 
> Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
> content is safe.
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 10:42 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> > fly
> >
> > Joel Ewing wrote, in part, on the original thread:
> > > There are many such solutions to get around the fact that JCL is not a
> > >programming language and is static at execution time.
> 
> So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self modifying
> code at runtime, it's not a programming language?
> 
> >
> > So (and yes, I realize that's an AND): is "static at execution time" a 
> > disqualifier
> > in the Am I A Programming Language sweepstakes?
> >
> > While this is academic, I'm actually seriously interested in this. And of 
> > course
> > maybe it's unanswerable in any meaningful, definitive way!
> >
> > Almost makes me wish I had a CS degree. OK, not really.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Bob Bridges
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:27 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> > fly
> >
> > I've thought about this question ("can JCL be considered a programming
> > language?") for some years.  I usually include it in my list of languages, 
> > but I
> > almost always add "sort of".  Still, during my most recent job interview, my
> > potential boss definitely agreed with me:  It counts.
> >
> > So did it count only after it had IF statements?  But no, the COND parm
> > qualifies as a sort of IF, doesn't it?
> >
> > JCL is very much like PC-DOS' batch language, which originally was just a
> > scripting tool ("run this program, now run this program..."); I think we
> mostly
> > call .bat a "language" too.  Not sure what if anything that proves.
> >
> > ---
> > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> > /* The Christian is in a different position from other people who are 
> > trying
> to
> > be good.  They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one, or — if
> they
> > think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good men.
> > But the Christiandoes not think God will love us because we are good, 
> > but
> > that God will make us good because He loves us  -from _What Christians
> > Believe_ by C S Lewis */
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 19:16
> >
> > First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one
> > more time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to 
> > be a
> > 'programming language'"?
> >
> > Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various
> > scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy
> > that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove
> anything.
> > Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or
> > wrong by some obje

Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

Forgetting can be surprisingly difficult, however ardently desired. I still 
remember some opcodes from the 650, a machine that only a mother could love. Or 
the addressing structure of the 1005, a machine straight out of Adams and 
Wilson.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not 
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
content is safe.


I don't remember either, but I do remember that Relay had "Beyond .bat", a 
.bat-like language that did a lot more, used for Relay/Gold emulator scripting. 
That suggests that it was pretty weak. Doesn't mean anything you said isn't 
right, of course. (And I'm NOT sorry that I don't remember those details--best 
forgotten!)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

My recollection is that BAT had conditional logic since the original PC-DOS; I 
don't recall what it was like in CP/M. CLIST, OTOH, became a programming 
language in OS/VS3 3.8,  as I recall. I may check bitsavers on that last.

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 19:04:02 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>"So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self 
>modifying code at runtime, it's not a programming language?" is totally 
>unrelated to anything he wrote.
> 
Should LISP's LAMBDA be considered "self modifying"?  Likewise function
definitions in POSIX shell?

-- 
gil

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Phil Smith III]

I don't remember either, but I do remember that Relay had "Beyond .bat", a 
.bat-like language that did a lot more, used for Relay/Gold emulator scripting. 
That suggests that it was pretty weak. Doesn't mean anything you said isn't 
right, of course. (And I'm NOT sorry that I don't remember those details--best 
forgotten!)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 2:11 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

My recollection is that BAT had conditional logic since the original PC-DOS; I 
don't recall what it was like in CP/M. CLIST, OTOH, became a programming 
language in OS/VS3 3.8,  as I recall. I may check bitsavers on that last.

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Phil Smith III]

Oops, I didn't notice that Bob had changed the thread name to "What is a 
'scripting language'?" My bad. Can we have one thread, though? They're at least 
adjacent...

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

My recollection is that BAT had conditional logic since the original PC-DOS; I 
don't recall what it was like in CP/M. CLIST, OTOH, became a programming 
language in OS/VS3 3.8,  as I recall. I may check bitsavers on that last.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges <0587168ababf-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not 
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
content is safe.


I've thought about this question ("can JCL be considered a programming 
language?") for some years.  I usually include it in my list of languages, but 
I almost always add "sort of".  Still, during my most recent job interview, my 
potential boss definitely agreed with me:  It counts.

So did it count only after it had IF statements?  But no, the COND parm 
qualifies as a sort of IF, doesn't it?

JCL is very much like PC-DOS' batch language, which originally was just a 
scripting tool ("run this program, now run this program..."); I think we mostly 
call .bat a "language" too.  Not sure what if anything that proves.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The Christian is in a different position from other people who are 
trying to be good.  They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one, or 
— if they think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good 
men.  But the Christiandoes not think God will love us because we are good, 
but that God will make us good because He loves us  -from _What Christians 
Believe_ by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 19:16

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one more 
time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a 
'programming language'"?

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various 
scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy 
that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything. 
Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or wrong 
by some objective definition?

Thoughts?

--- Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
>JCL is *not* a programming language.
>JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Phil Smith III]

To Bob's point about scripting languages--I like his definition and agree with 
him from a purist perspective, but suspect that a practical definition of 
"scripting language" simply means it has good OS integration, i.e., it's easy 
to do a bunch of commands, maybe get back results in program variables, stuff 
like that (with the degree of those functions varying between scripting 
languages).

I'm sure we've all spent far too much time using some NON-scripting language 
and Googling, trying to figure out "How the heck do I issue this simple system 
command--I don't even care about the result beyond maybe a return code?" and 
that's often surprisingly difficult. With the things that people call 
"scripting languages", that's always super-easy.

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

"So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self modifying 
code at runtime, it's not a programming language?" is totally unrelated to 
anything he wrote.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Dave Gibney <06fb76de82cb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:45 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not 
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
content is safe.


> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 10:42 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> fly
>
> Joel Ewing wrote, in part, on the original thread:
> > There are many such solutions to get around the fact that JCL is not a
> >programming language and is static at execution time.

So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self modifying 
code at runtime, it's not a programming language?

>
> So (and yes, I realize that's an AND): is "static at execution time" a 
> disqualifier
> in the Am I A Programming Language sweepstakes?
>
> While this is academic, I'm actually seriously interested in this. And of 
> course
> maybe it's unanswerable in any meaningful, definitive way!
>
> Almost makes me wish I had a CS degree. OK, not really.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:27 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> fly
>
> I've thought about this question ("can JCL be considered a programming
> language?") for some years.  I usually include it in my list of languages, 
> but I
> almost always add "sort of".  Still, during my most recent job interview, my
> potential boss definitely agreed with me:  It counts.
>
> So did it count only after it had IF statements?  But no, the COND parm
> qualifies as a sort of IF, doesn't it?
>
> JCL is very much like PC-DOS' batch language, which originally was just a
> scripting tool ("run this program, now run this program..."); I think we 
> mostly
> call .bat a "language" too.  Not sure what if anything that proves.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* The Christian is in a different position from other people who are 
> trying to
> be good.  They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one, or — if 
> they
> think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good men.
> But the Christiandoes not think God will love us because we are good, but
> that God will make us good because He loves us  -from _What Christians
> Believe_ by C S Lewis */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 19:16
>
> First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one
> more time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a
> 'programming language'"?
>
> Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various
> scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy
> that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything.
> Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or
> wrong by some objective definition?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --- Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
> >JCL is *not* a programming language.
> >JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Dave Gibney]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 10:42 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> fly
> 
> Joel Ewing wrote, in part, on the original thread:
> > There are many such solutions to get around the fact that JCL is not a
> >programming language and is static at execution time.

So, unless it support the generally considered poor practice of self modifying 
code at runtime, it's not a programming language? 

> 
> So (and yes, I realize that's an AND): is "static at execution time" a 
> disqualifier
> in the Am I A Programming Language sweepstakes?
> 
> While this is academic, I'm actually seriously interested in this. And of 
> course
> maybe it's unanswerable in any meaningful, definitive way!
> 
> Almost makes me wish I had a CS degree. OK, not really.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Bob Bridges
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:27 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the
> fly
> 
> I've thought about this question ("can JCL be considered a programming
> language?") for some years.  I usually include it in my list of languages, 
> but I
> almost always add "sort of".  Still, during my most recent job interview, my
> potential boss definitely agreed with me:  It counts.
> 
> So did it count only after it had IF statements?  But no, the COND parm
> qualifies as a sort of IF, doesn't it?
> 
> JCL is very much like PC-DOS' batch language, which originally was just a
> scripting tool ("run this program, now run this program..."); I think we 
> mostly
> call .bat a "language" too.  Not sure what if anything that proves.
> 
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
> /* The Christian is in a different position from other people who are 
> trying to
> be good.  They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one, or — if 
> they
> think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good men.
> But the Christiandoes not think God will love us because we are good, but
> that God will make us good because He loves us  -from _What Christians
> Believe_ by C S Lewis */
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 19:16
> 
> First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one
> more time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a
> 'programming language'"?
> 
> Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various
> scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy
> that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything.
> Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or
> wrong by some objective definition?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> --- Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
> >JCL is *not* a programming language.
> >JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> --
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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Phil Smith III]

Joel Ewing wrote, in part, on the original thread:
> There are many such solutions to get around the fact that JCL is not a
>programming language and is static at execution time.   

So (and yes, I realize that's an AND): is "static at execution time" a 
disqualifier in the Am I A Programming Language sweepstakes?

While this is academic, I'm actually seriously interested in this. And of 
course maybe it's unanswerable in any meaningful, definitive way!

Almost makes me wish I had a CS degree. OK, not really.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Bob 
Bridges
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2024 1:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

I've thought about this question ("can JCL be considered a programming 
language?") for some years.  I usually include it in my list of languages, but 
I almost always add "sort of".  Still, during my most recent job interview, my 
potential boss definitely agreed with me:  It counts.

So did it count only after it had IF statements?  But no, the COND parm 
qualifies as a sort of IF, doesn't it?

JCL is very much like PC-DOS' batch language, which originally was just a 
scripting tool ("run this program, now run this program..."); I think we mostly 
call .bat a "language" too.  Not sure what if anything that proves.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The Christian is in a different position from other people who are 
trying to be good.  They hope, by being good, to please God if there is one, or 
— if they think there is not — at least they hope to deserve approval from good 
men.  But the Christiandoes not think God will love us because we are good, 
but that God will make us good because He loves us  -from _What Christians 
Believe_ by C S Lewis */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 19:16

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one more 
time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a 
'programming language'"? 

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various 
scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy 
that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything. 
Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or wrong 
by some objective definition?

Thoughts?

--- Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
>JCL is *not* a programming language.
>JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

--
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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Bob Bridges]

I've thought about this question ("can JCL be considered a programming 
language?") for some years.  I usually include it in my list of languages, but 
I almost always add "sort of".  Still, during my most recent job interview, my 
potential boss definitely agreed with me:  It counts.

So did it count only after it had IF statements?  But no, the COND parm 
qualifies as a sort of IF, doesn't it?

JCL is very much like PC-DOS' batch language, which originally was just a 
scripting tool ("run this program, now run this program..."); I think we mostly 
call .bat a "language" too.  Not sure what if anything that proves.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The Christian is in a different position from other people who are 
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-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 19:16

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one more 
time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a 
'programming language'"? 

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various 
scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy 
that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything. 
Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or wrong 
by some objective definition?

Thoughts?

--- Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
>JCL is *not* a programming language.
>JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Schmitt, Michael]

It is a programming language if it can output the lyrics to 99 bottles of beer 
 without just hardcoding the lines.

And before you say, "but there is a submission there for JCL!", it is actually 
demonstrating the use of IEBDG, not JCL.

😉


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 6:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
>Short answer: NO WAY.
>However you can use some *programming* language for that, including REXX.

>Simple explanation:
>JCL is *not* a programming language.
>JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one more 
time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a 
'programming language'"?

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various 
scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy 
that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything. 
Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or wrong 
by some objective definition?

Thoughts?

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 11.11.2024 o 01:16, Phil Smith III pisze:

Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:

Short answer: NO WAY.
However you can use some *programming* language for that, including REXX.
Simple explanation:
JCL is *not* a programming language.
JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one more time, as 
I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a 'programming 
language'"?

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various scripting 
languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy that)? Does HTML 
qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything. Etc. I know people who think 
JCL does count. Can we prove them right or wrong by some objective definition?

Thoughts?


Well, I cannot provide accurate, precise definition of programming 
language, especially in English, which is not my native language... Yet 
another "language" in discussion ;-)

My answers:
1. You can write a program using this language.
2. It is called a programming language.

False answer:
It is compiled.
REXX is programming language, BASIC is programming language, both can be 
interpreted. From the other hand DFSMS ACS routines are somehow 
compiled. Is ACS  programming language?


Of course first answer may rise another question: what is a program?
And the second one may rise: Who said that?

However such discussion may lead to interesting (or not) results. Is 
cooking recipe a program? You can find loops, variables, conditions, 
etc. It is written in Polish. Or English. :-)


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 00:21:21 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>Turing complete?
>
Requires infinite storage, otherwise some computable
functions will fail for resource exhaustion.

>From:  Phil Smith III 
>Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 7:16 PM
>...
>Does it have to have loops? Variables? 
> LISP 1.0 had neither.

-- 
gil

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Re: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

[Seymour J Metz]

Turing complete?

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2024 7:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: What is a "programming language"? Was:: Modifying JCL on the fly

Caution: This email did not originate from George Mason’s mail system. Do not 
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
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Radoslaw Skorupka wrote, in part:
>Short answer: NO WAY.
>However you can use some *programming* language for that, including REXX.

>Simple explanation:
>JCL is *not* a programming language.
>JCL "piece of code" is called job, not program.

First, I'm not disagreeing with you here. But this does make me wonder one more 
time, as I have in the past: "Just what IS required for something to be a 
'programming language'"?

Does it have to have loops? Variables? A compiler (I'd say "no, or various 
scripting languages might not qualify", and I don't think anyone would buy 
that)? Does HTML qualify? It has the L-word but that doesn't prove anything. 
Etc. I know people who think JCL does count. Can we prove them right or wrong 
by some objective definition?

Thoughts?

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


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