Thanks for demonstrating the type of knowledge and professionalism that makes
clear why the IETF needs to pay more careful attention to this.
d/
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On 7/12/2010 7:53 AM, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
On 7/11/10 11:24 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote:
Has "the IETF" been authorizing people to conduct human subjects research
without the informed consent of the subjects?
I'm going to insert the root trust anchor into our recursive nameservers fo
ome fairly strict rules concerning this. For example:
<http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/humansubjects/guidance/45cfr46.htm>
especially section 46.116
Has "the IETF" been authorizing people to conduct human subjects research
without the informed consent of the subjects?
d
rns and an
acknowledgement by the signers that the concerns are understood.
Frequently, just having the issues stated clearly and brought to a participant's
attention is enough to get improved behavior.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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_
On 7/7/2010 8:32 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
On 07.07.2010 17:10, Dave CROCKER wrote:
...
Right. Personally, I think it's fine to include a normative reference to
something jotted down on a napkin. So I don't understand the fuss about
citing Internet-Drafts.
...
As long as the napk
ences".
Right. Personally, I think it's fine to include a normative reference to
something jotted down on a napkin. So I don't understand the fuss about citing
Internet-Drafts.
d/
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e of conflict of interest.
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- an IAOC document for the actual privacy policy itself, which could be changed
very quickly if (say) lawyers started beating down the doors.
if? so we really don't have an urgent requirement?
d/
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_
7;m only asking about its form.
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e
property was stolen rather boldly, such as from underneath the seat of an attendee.
We need to watch our personal property as if the person sitting next to us, or
behind us, might steal it.
Because some of them have.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWor
assertions of
cause or of likely behavioral change that sound reasonable but have little
empirical basis.
We need to be careful to avoid falling into that trap, because the changes being
discussed are strategic, and could well be impossible to reverse completely...
d/
--
Dave Crocker
B
On 6/21/2010 5:57 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
Here's an idea:
1. The first level is simply "Request for Comments".
Once an RFC is published, we start to gather comments.
Peter,
How is that different from an Internet Draft?
d/
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/
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e specification can be at all understood.
b. Whether there is any meaningful industry motivation to
care about the work.
With these two questions satisfied, the nature of challenges against
standardization might tend to be more pragmatic than theoretical.
d/
--
D
t /going/ to. The cost is too high and the
benefit is too low. We ought to change that because, well, the current situation
is embarrassing.
But in making the change, there should be a fairly strong basis for believing
that the new model will be successful.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenb
On 6/15/2010 7:30 PM, Fred Baker wrote:
Yes, all we need is application engineers with a network clue. They seem to be
hard to come by.
Every layer is clue-challenged, when it comes to staffing.
Possibly at other times, too.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
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that possibility.
But as I say, so far the groundswell I've seen is about the details, not the
premise.
d/
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information.
These are: employers, colleagues, friends and family. Feel free to expand the
list...
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Appendix.
I see that in some published RFCs, but I didn't see how to create a
non-appendix section after the appendices using xml2rfc.
Last couple of docs I've worked on have Security, IANA and Acknowledgements as
the last 3 sections of .
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg Interne
team.
What is the purpose of requiring reporting about closed groups? There is no
history to having design teams report their discussion activities, except for
their output to the working group.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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scope, namely satisfying only requirements for full Internet Standard.
I believe your comment is, instead, applicable for Draft. RFC 5321 satisifed
that quite a long time ago, since it is already at Draft status.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
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bbi
On 5/10/2010 11:08 AM, David Morris wrote:
On Mon, 10 May 2010, Dave CROCKER wrote:
Given that the argument for /ex/clusiveness pertains to competence at
rendering judgment about IETF leadership candidates, can you explain why
lowering the bar helps produce better leadership selection
n that the argument for /ex/clusiveness pertains to competence at rendering
judgment about IETF leadership candidates, can you explain why lowering the bar
helps produce better leadership selection?
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
" is amusing, as if there were any doubt possible.
But seriously, a justified high cost of discussing this will be considering what
it is that attendance ensures and how much of it is 'required' to be a useful
Nomcom participant.
And folks think credit cards and taxis are a rat hole.
If we resolve this with simple, principled rules, we can at least make the
injustice transient, while the longer-term issues are made reasonable and
appropriate.
d/
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as a general effort to get additional input.
This is quite different from soliciting a demonstration of community
consensus. The latter explicitly declares that the real authority for the
decision lies with the community. The former leaves it with the group that
issued the call.
d/
--
ould be a clever way to avoid the constitutional question.)
d/
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IETF-wide consensus.
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considered for leadership positions.
Given that, we do not need to wiggle with a rule that primarily serves produce
Nomcom volunteers who have LESS of the relevant knowledge...
d/
--
Dave Crocker
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On 5/6/2010 3:58 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
On May 6, 2010, at 6:45 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
This seems completely reasonable.
And to me too.
+1
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ta is relevant
to the update model.
Note that original reference cited update latency, not scale.
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ct participation is how the IETF measures things.
Second- and third-hand reports are subject to too much noise in the
communication path.
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On 4/6/2010 1:39 PM, Scott Lawrence wrote:
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 17:10 -0700, Dave CROCKER wrote:
By title and Introductory text, the document specifies its scope as user agent
configuration by non-technical users. The actual contents of the specification
suggests a broader scope, also
;s, I believe this problem was referred to as the West Point
problem, since all the cadets would turn on their network-connected PCs at
exactly 8am. Ungermann-Bass vs. Bridge Communication had fundamentally
different network booting models. One worked well under this sort of load. One
didn't.
systems, multiple implementations and competing
products, there is usually little room for requiring implementation but not
supporting deployment, I believe.
If you have data to the contrary, please do share it.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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update model is essential, they should lobby for
it themselves. The IETF is nicely open to such participation...
d/
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t has complexity and
scaling effects which are worthy of justification. Why is it not acceptable to
have some UA/CS interactions be quick and simple?
The configuration data cited in Section 3 does not appear to be of the type that
is typically highly volatile. So the need for incurring t
more for Neutral.
That leaves one negative button and two positive buttons.
The purpose of an odd-number of choices in a survey is to balance positive
choices with negative.
d/
ps. I also suggest that future surveys query about lunch and dinner venues, in
terms of convenience and quality.
Since today the future is iPad, IP mobility and social media.
Apparently, the iPAD is the result of an IETF bar bof:
ietf Protocol Application Device
d/
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On 4/3/2010 6:51 PM, Jorge Amodio wrote:
And what, pray tell, does an IETF app actually do?
The 10 commandments of the IETF in a tablet sort to speak.
One commandment for each layer?
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
On 4/3/2010 6:11 PM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
And what, pray tell, does an IETF app actually do?
A squeeze of the fingers tightens a spec.
Flicking sends it to the RFC Editor.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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On 4/2/2010 3:46 PM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote:
p.s. on the other hand they have excellent licorice and hagelslag. :)
You could pay with licorice?
Did they make change with fennel?
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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ooms.
I think you are confusing some and sometimes with all and always.
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or packets...
Given the insurance orientation, perhaps the real purpose of the labels is for
bilateral SLAs?
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'-offtopic'...
More broadly, we need to be careful to keep lists to the minimum, sufficient
set. Fancy tuning just creates more complexity is deciding what to post to.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
___
Ie
I agree that we should move this to a new list: ietf-78 which I hereby
ask Ray to create.
Is there some reason we need a new list for every meeting?
Why not have a single, stable, continuing mailing list for these postings.
ietf-meeting, for example.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg
rocks, etc. thrown on cars in the HOV
lane) was therefore predictable.
Don't impose penalties on existing (essential) practice.
Add incentives for new practice.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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time they make their reservation.
d/
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l often find lower rates, then, not just for the reasons that have
been suggested so far. There is also typically a difference in the type of room
that is allocated in a meeting block. Or, at least, that's a common claim for
conference room rates.)
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Bra
e spoofing, where someone pays to have /you/ listed as
sponsor of the wg. That leads to the possibility of your paying for a de-listing...
d/
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with signs along the way,
stating that this person or that person has has sponsored a segment of the
hallway...
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like these, it would be helpful to get a facilitator
appointed to serve something similar to the role of working group chair, to try
to resolve differences and assess consensus.
d/
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Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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On 3/15/2010 10:36 AM, Jorge Amodio wrote:
Author: Jeffrey Williams ?
A wiki's on-going peer-review ensure quick correction.
There is also some benefit in requiring an IETF web login.
d/
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Dave CROCKER wrote:
On 3/11/2010 7:32 AM, Donald Eastlake
rises, and revise
the entry when (if) someone offers a new datum to the debate?
d/
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nto their respective rooms to
discuss something.
The story goes that a couple used the room one evening, without realizing that
they had an audience...
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e the substantial benefit of
supporting html as a submission format.
d/
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he sale", but I thought that Andrew's work provided
remarkable substantiation of the problem that it was worth explicitly noting it
for the record.
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htt
On 3/10/2010 11:03 AM, Steven Bellovin wrote:
Yes -- a good supply of solvents is necessary for many IETF discussions...
is that because candid discussion requires participation that is unvarnished?
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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ss of text.
The prudent action is to return it to the appellant, stating that it cannot be
processed until it has been made clear and concise.
d/
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.
d/
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r who declined to attend, who
would have done a regular fee if the one-day had not existed, or any of the
myriad other tidbits that might aid in understanding the effects from this
experiment?
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbi
roundless legal disputes
can take years and years, and the only winner is the lawyers. And
we've seen how much public key deployment was held back because of the
RSA patents; and most people who have lived through those dark times
really don't want to revisit them again.
right.
(shudde
pport.
For defining 'cloud', one group I'm participating in decided it was happy with
the NIST language:
<http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SNS/cloud-computing/cloud-def-v15.doc>
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
On 2/22/2010 9:38 AM, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
A new alias has been created for discussion on this topic:
clo...@ietf.org <mailto:clo...@ietf.org> .
Do you mean a mail list? Can you provide subscribe information?
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/clouds>
d/
--
On 1/12/2010 7:29 AM, IETF Chair wrote:
If you would like to be considered for one
of the other Areas, please contact the Area Director for that Area.
Russ,
I'm interested, presumably for Apps.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbi
On 1/12/2010 1:24 PM, Fred Baker wrote:
People from the PRC don't have horns. Really.
Actually, they have world-class performers for the full range of musical
instruments.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
___
-- and you will get
a ticket. Not a warning, but a ticket. There is nothing in the signage to tell
you this.
Not knowing local laws is a pervasive problem.
On 1/11/2010 11:55 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Oh, and don't travel to the Anaheim
> IETF from Nigeria.
Let
y, it would be nice to have this list spared from such inventive,
inflammatory fantasies.
d/
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erhaps better than we would like.
How many years has the IETF been working on this topic, and how much real-world
deployment (and use) is there, so far?
d/
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modify the BGP
protocol, which is not an ITU-T standard."
and the article's explicit reference to the IETF makes clear that the article
isn't clear about basic details.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
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_
reference to be Normative or Non-Normative, in a
non-normative document?
Where is this explained for authors?
d/
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do not look for or require it.
d/
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uality/ of
that filtering is the question, not whether to have it.
d/
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y, it could be interesting to track down why your corporate filters
are flagging these.
d/
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Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Should you wish to rent a colocated
server in Germany, Strago AG wishes to inform you that its servers are
powerful, inexpensive and support IPv6 (beta).
They think v6 is not ready for production use?
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
quivalent to servers SHOULD
NOT? I think a SHOULD NOT is better. (And that's the form
used in section 7.)
MUST NOT -> must not
The sentence is not an applicability/requirement statement. It is a
statement containing fact in the real world.
--
Dave Crocker
Bra
that, in my own experience:
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/423/>
This suggests that a productive line of inquiry to RIM is whether they would be
willing to make a similar licensing offer.
d/
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Dave Crocker
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blematic changes.
d/
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The IESG wrote:
The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to
consider the following document:
- 'ESMTP and LMTP Transmission Types Registration '
RFC 3848 as a Draft Standard
+1
d/
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Dave Crocker
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ain silly. Or is it willful ignorance of the "Note Well" terms?
Randy
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e reported that others he was talking with insisted on the current
"arbitration" model that mandates change.
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tinct advantage of allowing the community to know why it
rejected alternatives. And /that/ has the advantage of avoiding morning-after
regret.
d/
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riteria rigorously.
We will then need far fewer meeting slots.
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David Conrad wrote:
There is no magic here.
Oh good grief.
You are clearly entirely too close to this.
It is /all/ f'ing magic.
Every f'ing thing about the Internet is magic.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
Polk, William T. wrote:
That would be lovely, but I just couldn't sort the government paperwork to
make that happen. Billing it as "meeting materials" didn't work out...
Too bad. Cultural mismatch.
Choose the right government and it's not only acceptable, it&#x
actual and stocked and functioning
/bar/, at the back of the room?
d/
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y for work done in a different area also
means that area-specific notice of office hours isn't enough.
d/
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y for work done in a different area also
means that area-specific notice of office hours isn't enough.
d/
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doing this before.
Very cool idea!
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s and learned to strum, not hum, we could
get those sponsors.
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contribute to the
process of scribing.
As for Joel's alternative of recording, transcribing from a recording is
prohibitively painful. In contrast, converting from a jabber log to 'minutes'
would not be.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWor
directly:
The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) distributes and retains
Internet-Drafts, as working documents for its own activities and for other
groupsand individuals. The repository for Internet-Drafts is available at .
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
would be to make an archive of
notes that could then be lightly massaged into minutes.
If everyone in the meeting is recruited to assist, I suspect the result could be
reasonably comprehensive.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbi
m --
and therefore the dangers that come from not "solving" it -- and we might be
able to get some common perspectives on solutions.
d/
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explicitly, with
an eye for later, potentially undesirable effects.
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S's Patriot Act as it changed basic freedoms's for citizens, nevermind
non-citizens.
Really, Cullen, it's difficult to overemphasize just how basic a mistake it is
for us to pursue your questions.
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
for us to consider it now. If it does not already such a
history, it still might be, but again, I suspect venue logistics ought to be the
major conbcern, not venue politics.
Really, folks. This is not merely a slippery slope. It's a cliff.
d/
--
ESG is still claiming a mandate for change.
One of the problems with our having rules is that we really are supposed to
follow them.
d/
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n!
d/
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