On 2010-05-30 18:49, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
So we need to extend the UPNP protocol so that when the local NAT box
receives a request to open up an external port, it relays the request
to the carrier NAT.
That's like msdp multicast state, who is going to allow you to
instantiate it in thei
On 31 May 2010, at 02:49, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> Or we could do what we did last time and pretend that nobody will
> deploy carrier grade NAT if we don't specify a way that it can work
> without pain.
Well, I'd be interested to know what your plan is. Do you think we should use
DNS for ev
It is a feature that should be part of the Internet base protocol
stack. It is bad enough having to work out which RFCs matter and which
should be ignored. Knowing that you have to search out to various
other organizations to find secret sauce to make it work is a recipe
for chaos.
Its bad enough
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 3:02 AM, Masataka Ohta
wrote:
> paf wrote:
>
>> It all works pretty well if the client have IPv4 and IPv6
>> _AND_ both works. But to some degree the functionality and
>> user experience goes down if either of IPv4 or IPv6 have
>> problems.
>
> Same is true for a host with
So we need to extend the UPNP protocol so that when the local NAT box
receives a request to open up an external port, it relays the request
to the carrier NAT.
Or we could do what we did last time and pretend that nobody will
deploy carrier grade NAT if we don't specify a way that it can work
wit
You articulated the view from my knothole. Thanks!
-Original Message-
From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
Carpenter
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 1:29 AM
To: David Conrad
Cc: IETF Discussion
Subject: Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN
No, it means it
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>> The problem can be solved by carefully designing connection
>> establishment protocols to support multiple addresses of a
>> host, which means no solution exists at the connectionless
>> layer of IP.
>> Modified TCP, which send multiple SYN to several addresses
>> o
On 31 maj 2010, at 19.35, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> "The difference between theory and practise is even bigger in practise than
> it is in theory."
>
>-- Our very own S. Crocker
I have for years said "In theory there is no difference between theory and
practice, but in practice there is".
> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=
> Messier than what I think many people think. Including me (and I
> thought I had quite good overview of how it worked).
"The difference between theory and practise is even bigger in practise than
it is in theory."
-- Our very own
On 05/31/2010 03:49 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
So we need to extend the UPNP protocol so that when the local NAT box
receives a request to open up an external port, it relays the request
to the carrier NAT.
So what are you waiting for? Go ahead, read http://upnp.org, find the
relevant WG,
paf wrote:
> It all works pretty well if the client have IPv4 and IPv6
> _AND_ both works. But to some degree the functionality and
> user experience goes down if either of IPv4 or IPv6 have
> problems.
Same is true for a host with two IPv4 addresses and either of
the IPv4 addresses have problems
Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
> Right, yes, I didn't see it from that standpoint. However UPnP
> can of course be substituted by NAT-PMP/PCP or something else
> that doesn't have the same discovery problem, and ISP-level NATs
> will no longer be a "Problem" for clients needing incoming
> connection
In message <6e881f81-991d-4e98-932c-65cb49b02...@cisco.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pat
rik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= writes:
> On 31 maj 2010, at 08.03, Mark Andrews wrote:
>
> > MTAs should never search. MX records are absolute (explict or
> > implicit).
>
> Agree.
>
> > MSAs should only search to qualify unq
On 31 maj 2010, at 08.03, Mark Andrews wrote:
> MTAs should never search. MX records are absolute (explict or
> implicit).
Agree.
> MSAs should only search to qualify unqualified domains in user
> submitted data.
I agree with this as well.
These are just two details that have not been clear i
In message , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pat
rik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= writes:
> On 31 maj 2010, at 03.39, Mark Andrews wrote:
>
> > And have any of those that say this tried:
> >
> > 1) tried dual stack
> > 2) tried IPv6 only through NAT64 (NAT-PT)
> >
> > with a sample of customers or are they just talk
On 31 maj 2010, at 03.39, Mark Andrews wrote:
> And have any of those that say this tried:
>
> 1) tried dual stack
> 2) tried IPv6 only through NAT64 (NAT-PT)
>
> with a sample of customers or are they just talking without any
> reference points.
I am spending lots of my time trying
In message , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pat
rik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= writes:
> On 28 maj 2010, at 21.39, Jari Arkko wrote:
>
> > ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack
> (full stop).
>
> Unfortunately on applications layer I do not see enough operational
> experience/best practi
On 30 May 2010, at 16:02, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> On 05/30/2010 04:44 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>> BitTorrent is popular, yes. People at home *are* behind NAT boxes, with all
>> the usual pain that implies *. It's just that BitTorrent, being a
>> straightforward TCP protocol with no emb
On 05/30/2010 04:44 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
BitTorrent is popular, yes. People at home *are* behind NAT boxes, with all
the usual pain that implies *. It's just that BitTorrent, being a
straightforward TCP protocol with no embedded payload addresses **, can operate
behind NATs, and t
On 28 May 2010, at 17:39, David Conrad wrote:
> On May 28, 2010, at 8:57 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
>> Consider bittorrent. Bittorrent clients generally can run behind NAT, but in
>> that case they have to be on the same ethernet as the NATbox, so it's a safe
>> bet that the bittorrent USER has
Patrik,
... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack (full stop).
Unfortunately on applications layer I do not see enough operational experience/best practice/actual implementations that handle this in a very good way.
There are issues, of course.
On 28 maj 2010, at 21.39, Jari Arkko wrote:
> ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack (full
> stop).
Unfortunately on applications layer I do not see enough operational
experience/best practice/actual implementations that handle this in a very good
way. The numbe
Jari Arkko wrote:
>> A IPv6 only host has to have access to a IPv4 address to talk to IPv4
>> only
>> hosts. The simplest way to do this is to actually stay dual stack and use
>> DS-lite.
>
> ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack
> (full stop).
Do you mean IPv6
In message <4c001bd5.4020...@piuha.net>, Jari Arkko writes:
> Mark,
>
> > A IPv6 only host has to have access to a IPv4 address to talk to IPv4 only
> > hosts. The simplest way to do this is to actually stay dual stack and use
> > DS-lite.
>
> ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this i
Mark,
A IPv6 only host has to have access to a IPv4 address to talk to IPv4 only
hosts. The simplest way to do this is to actually stay dual stack and use
DS-lite.
... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack
(full stop). DS-Lite is needed in some situations, primar
My objective when talking to reporters who write for the *business*
section is to project that mere awareness is not good enough anymore for
businesses; businesses need to have a plan. For you all on this list
this should help the next time you talk to the suits who decide about
strategy and inves
On May 28, 2010, at 8:57 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Consider bittorrent. Bittorrent clients generally can run behind NAT, but in
> that case they have to be on the same ethernet as the NATbox, so it's a safe
> bet that the bittorrent USER has a real address. Am I stepping out on a limb
> if I
In message <20100528154216.d9fee6be...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Noel Chiappa write
s:
> > From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=
>
> > As native IPv6 connections are compared more and more with IPv4 NAT:ed
> > connections, I think this will go quicker than what people think. Note
>
Noel ,
Really? As far as I can tell, there is still no general, defined, method to
allow an IPv6 host with a v6-only address (i.e. not an IPv4 address embedded
in an IPv6 address) to talk to an IPv4-only host.
So, for all that content which is IPv4 only, how does an IPv6-only host get
to it? An
On 05/28/2010 05:01 PM, David Conrad wrote:
On May 28, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Today, most users are *not* behind ISP NAT or some other form of global address
sharing.
An interesting assertion. I'd agree on the ISP NAT part. Not sure about the "other
form of global addre
On 2010-05-29 03:01, David Conrad wrote:
> On May 28, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Today, most users are *not* behind ISP NAT or some other form of global
>> address sharing.
>
> An interesting assertion. I'd agree on the ISP NAT part. Not sure about the
> "other form of globa
> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=
> As native IPv6 connections are compared more and more with IPv4 NAT:ed
> connections, I think this will go quicker than what people think. Note
> that most of the difference between the protocols are features and
> operational ex
The world will continue to rotate just fine, without me prognosticating
about the universal deployment of IPv6, but I did want to agree with Jari on
one point:
But I would argue this does not really matter so much. I think we have
already run out of the addresses, with consequent implications
On May 28, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Today, most users are *not* behind ISP NAT or some other form of global
> address sharing.
An interesting assertion. I'd agree on the ISP NAT part. Not sure about the
"other form of global address sharing" part, since single NAT is addres
On 05/28/2010 03:42 PM, Jari Arkko wrote:
We will need also mainstream news articles in the latter.
Expect that around the end of July, intoning «In one year, the Internet
Assigned Numbers Authority is expected…»
Arnt
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The size and timing of the address resource problem depends on your
viewpoint, of course. Your existing address resources, your growth rate,
your subscriber base, the extent to which more NATs remove your problem
all vary.
But I would argue this does not really matter so much. I think we have
- Original Message -
From: "Mark Andrews"
To: "Ofer Inbar"
Cc:
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:37 AM
> The point of the article was to make more people aware of IPv6 and to
> urge them actually start planning to move to IPv6.
>
> I've got IPv6 at home today (tunneled). If my ISP moves
--Original Message-
>> From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>> Brian E Carpenter
>> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:14 PM
>> To: Ole Jacobsen
>> Cc: Noel Chiappa; ietf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN
>
On 2010-05-28 04:51, David Conrad wrote:
...
> Well, no. While that is a problem, I suspect the real issue is:
>
> 'Within 18 months it is estimated that the number of new devices able to
> connect to the world wide web will plummet as we run out of "IP addresses"'
I strongly suspect that Danie
Ofer Inbar wrote:
> ... what's next?
>Carrier-based NAT?
>Virtual-hosting encrypted http?
>Actually using IPv6 en masse?
>Something else?
Something else of port restricted IP, with which an IPv4 address
can be shared by 100 or 1,000 hosts while keeping the end to end
transparency.
f-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian
> E Carpenter
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:14 PM
> To: Ole Jacobsen
> Cc: Noel Chiappa; ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN
>
> On 2010-05-28 02:44, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
>> I guess my point was more that t
As native IPv6 connections are compared more and more with IPv4 NAT:ed
connections, I think this will go quicker than what people think. Note that
most of the difference between the protocols are features and operational
experiences the ISPs have. For the end user...how much difference is there
In message <20100527205219.gw5...@mip.a.org>, Ofer Inbar writes:
> Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > The major problem with the story is that it confounds IANA runout
> > (objectively predicted for 2011) with when ISPs run out of IPv4 space
> > (which is not so easy to predict, but 2015 is a popul
Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> The major problem with the story is that it confounds IANA runout
> (objectively predicted for 2011) with when ISPs run out of IPv4 space
> (which is not so easy to predict, but 2015 is a popular estimate). The
> rest is pretty good for a story in the non-technical media
f.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:14 PM
To: Ole Jacobsen
Cc: Noel Chiappa; ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN
On 2010-05-28 02:44, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> I guess my point was more that this article actually quotes a *real*
> expert rather t
FYI, BBC scooped the story on 11 May, and had a story on the topic last
September.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10105978.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8227117.stm
On May 27, 2010, at 5:10 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/05/27/internet.crunch.2012/
David Conrad wrote:
>
> and this quote:
>
> "The internet as we know it will no longer be able to grow,"
This means "no more 'new kids' on the block", they will
have to "sublicense" from existing "kids".
>
> IPv4 free pool runout simply means connecting to the Internet
> is going to get more e
On May 27, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 2010-05-28 02:44, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
>> I guess my point was more that this article actually quotes a *real*
>> expert rather than someone we've never heard of --- a more common
>> practice for the press. Whether or not you agree with D
On 2010-05-28 02:44, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
> I guess my point was more that this article actually quotes a *real*
> expert rather than someone we've never heard of --- a more common
> practice for the press. Whether or not you agree with Daniel, he does
> at least have extensive experience in these
I guess my point was more that this article actually quotes a *real*
expert rather than someone we've never heard of --- a more common
practice for the press. Whether or not you agree with Daniel, he does
at least have extensive experience in these matters.
Ole
Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publi
IPv6 networks and products are maturing but are still not on a par with *IPv4*
networks and services.
Apologies.
Steve
Sent from my iPad
On May 27, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Rumbidzayi Gadhula wrote:
>
>
> On 27 May 2010 16:11, Steve Crocker wrote:
> I agree. That said, it's a bit challenging t
On 27 May 2010 16:11, Steve Crocker wrote:
> I agree. That said, it's a bit challenging to get the right message
> across. IPv4 hosts will continue to increase for quite a while, but address
> space will increasingly hard to obtain. The large growth will come in the
> IPv6 space. IPv6 network
I agree. That said, it's a bit challenging to get the right message across.
IPv4 hosts will continue to increase for quite a while, but address space will
increasingly hard to obtain. The large growth will come in the IPv6 space.
IPv6 networks and products are maturing but are still not yet
> From: Ole Jacobsen
> this story was written by someone with a clue.
Not really. A high marketing FUD / technical content ratio.
Noel
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On 27 May 2010, at 14:16, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
>
> Is that the Matt Ford who works for ISOC or somebody else?
>
The latter.
> The person quoted is well-known, so that makes me think this story was
> written by someone with a clue.
>
No comment ;)
Mat
___
Is that the Matt Ford who works for ISOC or somebody else?
The person quoted is well-known, so that makes me think this story was
written by someone with a clue.
Ole
Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal
Cisco Systems
Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-46
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