Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-06-02 Thread joel jaeggli
On 2010-05-30 18:49, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: So we need to extend the UPNP protocol so that when the local NAT box receives a request to open up an external port, it relays the request to the carrier NAT. That's like msdp multicast state, who is going to allow you to instantiate it in thei

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-06-01 Thread Sabahattin Gucukoglu
On 31 May 2010, at 02:49, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > Or we could do what we did last time and pretend that nobody will > deploy carrier grade NAT if we don't specify a way that it can work > without pain. Well, I'd be interested to know what your plan is. Do you think we should use DNS for ev

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-06-01 Thread Phillip Hallam-Baker
It is a feature that should be part of the Internet base protocol stack. It is bad enough having to work out which RFCs matter and which should be ignored. Knowing that you have to search out to various other organizations to find secret sauce to make it work is a recipe for chaos. Its bad enough

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-06-01 Thread Phillip Hallam-Baker
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 3:02 AM, Masataka Ohta wrote: > paf wrote: > >> It all works pretty well if the client have IPv4 and IPv6 >> _AND_ both works. But to some degree the functionality and >> user experience goes down if either of IPv4 or IPv6 have >> problems. > > Same is true for a host with

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-06-01 Thread Phillip Hallam-Baker
So we need to extend the UPNP protocol so that when the local NAT box receives a request to open up an external port, it relays the request to the carrier NAT. Or we could do what we did last time and pretend that nobody will deploy carrier grade NAT if we don't specify a way that it can work wit

RE: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-06-01 Thread Fleischman, Eric
You articulated the view from my knothole. Thanks! -Original Message- From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 1:29 AM To: David Conrad Cc: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN No, it means it

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-31 Thread Masataka Ohta
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> The problem can be solved by carefully designing connection >> establishment protocols to support multiple addresses of a >> host, which means no solution exists at the connectionless >> layer of IP. >> Modified TCP, which send multiple SYN to several addresses >> o

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-31 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 31 maj 2010, at 19.35, Noel Chiappa wrote: > "The difference between theory and practise is even bigger in practise than > it is in theory." > >-- Our very own S. Crocker I have for years said "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is".

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-31 Thread Noel Chiappa
> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= > Messier than what I think many people think. Including me (and I > thought I had quite good overview of how it worked). "The difference between theory and practise is even bigger in practise than it is in theory." -- Our very own

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-31 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen
On 05/31/2010 03:49 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: So we need to extend the UPNP protocol so that when the local NAT box receives a request to open up an external port, it relays the request to the carrier NAT. So what are you waiting for? Go ahead, read http://upnp.org, find the relevant WG,

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-31 Thread Masataka Ohta
paf wrote: > It all works pretty well if the client have IPv4 and IPv6 > _AND_ both works. But to some degree the functionality and > user experience goes down if either of IPv4 or IPv6 have > problems. Same is true for a host with two IPv4 addresses and either of the IPv4 addresses have problems

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Masataka Ohta
Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote: > Right, yes, I didn't see it from that standpoint. However UPnP > can of course be substituted by NAT-PMP/PCP or something else > that doesn't have the same discovery problem, and ISP-level NATs > will no longer be a "Problem" for clients needing incoming > connection

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Mark Andrews
In message <6e881f81-991d-4e98-932c-65cb49b02...@cisco.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pat rik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= writes: > On 31 maj 2010, at 08.03, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > MTAs should never search. MX records are absolute (explict or > > implicit). > > Agree. > > > MSAs should only search to qualify unq

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 31 maj 2010, at 08.03, Mark Andrews wrote: > MTAs should never search. MX records are absolute (explict or > implicit). Agree. > MSAs should only search to qualify unqualified domains in user > submitted data. I agree with this as well. These are just two details that have not been clear i

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Mark Andrews
In message , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pat rik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= writes: > On 31 maj 2010, at 03.39, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > And have any of those that say this tried: > > > > 1) tried dual stack > > 2) tried IPv6 only through NAT64 (NAT-PT) > > > > with a sample of customers or are they just talk

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 31 maj 2010, at 03.39, Mark Andrews wrote: > And have any of those that say this tried: > > 1) tried dual stack > 2) tried IPv6 only through NAT64 (NAT-PT) > > with a sample of customers or are they just talking without any > reference points. I am spending lots of my time trying

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Mark Andrews
In message , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pat rik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= writes: > On 28 maj 2010, at 21.39, Jari Arkko wrote: > > > ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack > (full stop). > > Unfortunately on applications layer I do not see enough operational > experience/best practi

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Sabahattin Gucukoglu
On 30 May 2010, at 16:02, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > On 05/30/2010 04:44 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote: >> BitTorrent is popular, yes. People at home *are* behind NAT boxes, with all >> the usual pain that implies *. It's just that BitTorrent, being a >> straightforward TCP protocol with no emb

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen
On 05/30/2010 04:44 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote: BitTorrent is popular, yes. People at home *are* behind NAT boxes, with all the usual pain that implies *. It's just that BitTorrent, being a straightforward TCP protocol with no embedded payload addresses **, can operate behind NATs, and t

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Sabahattin Gucukoglu
On 28 May 2010, at 17:39, David Conrad wrote: > On May 28, 2010, at 8:57 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: >> Consider bittorrent. Bittorrent clients generally can run behind NAT, but in >> that case they have to be on the same ethernet as the NATbox, so it's a safe >> bet that the bittorrent USER has

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Jari Arkko
Patrik, ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack (full stop). Unfortunately on applications layer I do not see enough operational experience/best practice/actual implementations that handle this in a very good way. There are issues, of course.

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-30 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 28 maj 2010, at 21.39, Jari Arkko wrote: > ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack (full > stop). Unfortunately on applications layer I do not see enough operational experience/best practice/actual implementations that handle this in a very good way. The numbe

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Masataka Ohta
Jari Arkko wrote: >> A IPv6 only host has to have access to a IPv4 address to talk to IPv4 >> only >> hosts. The simplest way to do this is to actually stay dual stack and use >> DS-lite. > > ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack > (full stop). Do you mean IPv6

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Mark Andrews
In message <4c001bd5.4020...@piuha.net>, Jari Arkko writes: > Mark, > > > A IPv6 only host has to have access to a IPv4 address to talk to IPv4 only > > hosts. The simplest way to do this is to actually stay dual stack and use > > DS-lite. > > ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this i

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Jari Arkko
Mark, A IPv6 only host has to have access to a IPv4 address to talk to IPv4 only hosts. The simplest way to do this is to actually stay dual stack and use DS-lite. ... the simplest (and recommended) way to do this is to use dual stack (full stop). DS-Lite is needed in some situations, primar

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Daniel Karrenberg
My objective when talking to reporters who write for the *business* section is to project that mere awareness is not good enough anymore for businesses; businesses need to have a plan. For you all on this list this should help the next time you talk to the suits who decide about strategy and inves

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread David Conrad
On May 28, 2010, at 8:57 AM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Consider bittorrent. Bittorrent clients generally can run behind NAT, but in > that case they have to be on the same ethernet as the NATbox, so it's a safe > bet that the bittorrent USER has a real address. Am I stepping out on a limb > if I

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Mark Andrews
In message <20100528154216.d9fee6be...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Noel Chiappa write s: > > From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= > > > As native IPv6 connections are compared more and more with IPv4 NAT:ed > > connections, I think this will go quicker than what people think. Note >

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Jari Arkko
Noel , Really? As far as I can tell, there is still no general, defined, method to allow an IPv6 host with a v6-only address (i.e. not an IPv4 address embedded in an IPv6 address) to talk to an IPv4-only host. So, for all that content which is IPv4 only, how does an IPv6-only host get to it? An

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen
On 05/28/2010 05:01 PM, David Conrad wrote: On May 28, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: Today, most users are *not* behind ISP NAT or some other form of global address sharing. An interesting assertion. I'd agree on the ISP NAT part. Not sure about the "other form of global addre

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Brian E Carpenter
On 2010-05-29 03:01, David Conrad wrote: > On May 28, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Today, most users are *not* behind ISP NAT or some other form of global >> address sharing. > > An interesting assertion. I'd agree on the ISP NAT part. Not sure about the > "other form of globa

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Noel Chiappa
> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= > As native IPv6 connections are compared more and more with IPv4 NAT:ed > connections, I think this will go quicker than what people think. Note > that most of the difference between the protocols are features and > operational ex

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Spencer Dawkins
The world will continue to rotate just fine, without me prognosticating about the universal deployment of IPv6, but I did want to agree with Jari on one point: But I would argue this does not really matter so much. I think we have already run out of the addresses, with consequent implications

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread David Conrad
On May 28, 2010, at 1:29 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Today, most users are *not* behind ISP NAT or some other form of global > address sharing. An interesting assertion. I'd agree on the ISP NAT part. Not sure about the "other form of global address sharing" part, since single NAT is addres

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen
On 05/28/2010 03:42 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: We will need also mainstream news articles in the latter. Expect that around the end of July, intoning «In one year, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority is expected…» Arnt ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@iet

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Jari Arkko
The size and timing of the address resource problem depends on your viewpoint, of course. Your existing address resources, your growth rate, your subscriber base, the extent to which more NATs remove your problem all vary. But I would argue this does not really matter so much. I think we have

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread t.petch
- Original Message - From: "Mark Andrews" To: "Ofer Inbar" Cc: Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:37 AM > The point of the article was to make more people aware of IPv6 and to > urge them actually start planning to move to IPv6. > > I've got IPv6 at home today (tunneled). If my ISP moves

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Brian E Carpenter
--Original Message- >> From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Brian E Carpenter >> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:14 PM >> To: Ole Jacobsen >> Cc: Noel Chiappa; ietf@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN >

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Brian E Carpenter
On 2010-05-28 04:51, David Conrad wrote: ... > Well, no. While that is a problem, I suspect the real issue is: > > 'Within 18 months it is estimated that the number of new devices able to > connect to the world wide web will plummet as we run out of "IP addresses"' I strongly suspect that Danie

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-28 Thread Masataka Ohta
Ofer Inbar wrote: > ... what's next? >Carrier-based NAT? >Virtual-hosting encrypted http? >Actually using IPv6 en masse? >Something else? Something else of port restricted IP, with which an IPv4 address can be shared by 100 or 1,000 hosts while keeping the end to end transparency.

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Patrik Fältström
f-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian > E Carpenter > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:14 PM > To: Ole Jacobsen > Cc: Noel Chiappa; ietf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN > > On 2010-05-28 02:44, Ole Jacobsen wrote: >> I guess my point was more that t

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Patrik Fältström
As native IPv6 connections are compared more and more with IPv4 NAT:ed connections, I think this will go quicker than what people think. Note that most of the difference between the protocols are features and operational experiences the ISPs have. For the end user...how much difference is there

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Mark Andrews
In message <20100527205219.gw5...@mip.a.org>, Ofer Inbar writes: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > The major problem with the story is that it confounds IANA runout > > (objectively predicted for 2011) with when ISPs run out of IPv4 space > > (which is not so easy to predict, but 2015 is a popul

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Ofer Inbar
Brian E Carpenter wrote: > The major problem with the story is that it confounds IANA runout > (objectively predicted for 2011) with when ISPs run out of IPv4 space > (which is not so easy to predict, but 2015 is a popular estimate). The > rest is pretty good for a story in the non-technical media

RE: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Jason.Weil
f.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:14 PM To: Ole Jacobsen Cc: Noel Chiappa; ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN On 2010-05-28 02:44, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > I guess my point was more that this article actually quotes a *real* > expert rather t

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Fred Baker
FYI, BBC scooped the story on 11 May, and had a story on the topic last September. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10105978.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8227117.stm On May 27, 2010, at 5:10 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/05/27/internet.crunch.2012/

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Martin Rex
David Conrad wrote: > > and this quote: > > "The internet as we know it will no longer be able to grow," This means "no more 'new kids' on the block", they will have to "sublicense" from existing "kids". > > IPv4 free pool runout simply means connecting to the Internet > is going to get more e

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread David Conrad
On May 27, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2010-05-28 02:44, Ole Jacobsen wrote: >> I guess my point was more that this article actually quotes a *real* >> expert rather than someone we've never heard of --- a more common >> practice for the press. Whether or not you agree with D

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Brian E Carpenter
On 2010-05-28 02:44, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > I guess my point was more that this article actually quotes a *real* > expert rather than someone we've never heard of --- a more common > practice for the press. Whether or not you agree with Daniel, he does > at least have extensive experience in these

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Ole Jacobsen
I guess my point was more that this article actually quotes a *real* expert rather than someone we've never heard of --- a more common practice for the press. Whether or not you agree with Daniel, he does at least have extensive experience in these matters. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publi

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Steve Crocker
IPv6 networks and products are maturing but are still not on a par with *IPv4* networks and services. Apologies. Steve Sent from my iPad On May 27, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Rumbidzayi Gadhula wrote: > > > On 27 May 2010 16:11, Steve Crocker wrote: > I agree. That said, it's a bit challenging t

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Rumbidzayi Gadhula
On 27 May 2010 16:11, Steve Crocker wrote: > I agree. That said, it's a bit challenging to get the right message > across. IPv4 hosts will continue to increase for quite a while, but address > space will increasingly hard to obtain. The large growth will come in the > IPv6 space. IPv6 network

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Steve Crocker
I agree. That said, it's a bit challenging to get the right message across. IPv4 hosts will continue to increase for quite a while, but address space will increasingly hard to obtain. The large growth will come in the IPv6 space. IPv6 networks and products are maturing but are still not yet

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Noel Chiappa
> From: Ole Jacobsen > this story was written by someone with a clue. Not really. A high marketing FUD / technical content ratio. Noel ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Matthew Ford
On 27 May 2010, at 14:16, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > Is that the Matt Ford who works for ISOC or somebody else? > The latter. > The person quoted is well-known, so that makes me think this story was > written by someone with a clue. > No comment ;) Mat ___

Re: IPv4 depletion makes CNN

2010-05-27 Thread Ole Jacobsen
Is that the Matt Ford who works for ISOC or somebody else? The person quoted is well-known, so that makes me think this story was written by someone with a clue. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-46