On Apr 13, 2013, at 6:44 AM, Arturo Servin arturo.ser...@gmail.com wrote:
Me too, but when you have a diverse pool of people
who feel strongly about open standards, rough consensus and running code
and you choose only one category of the group, then we need to think
about how we end up
On 04/13/2013 01:09 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
gender bias
...
western white guys.
It may be that the latter phrase is a common term in
north America, (I dunno) but fwiw it grates on me at
least.
If the issue we're talking about relates to gender,
then I think sticking to that is better and
A question because my institutional memory does reach as far back:
How much was Europe represented over the decades in IETF leadership ?
Right now for example IESG seems to have maybe at least 5
europeans (don't really know how to figure out location for all of them,
those where just the easy
On Apr 13, 2013, at 8:46 AM, Stephen Farrell stephen.farr...@cs.tcd.ie wrote:
On 04/13/2013 01:09 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
gender bias
...
western white guys.
It may be that the latter phrase is a common term in
north America, (I dunno) but fwiw it grates on me at
least.
If the
SM,
Since you asked, the IAB spoke on this subject as one voice last year
when the OpenStand RFC was released.
As a current IAB member, and speaking for myself...
On 4/13/13 1:32 AM, SM wrote:
Thomas Narten mentioned that: we have the tendency to pick the people
we know and trust, which is
--On Friday, April 12, 2013 23:37 -0400 Andrew Sullivan
a...@anvilwalrusden.com wrote:
The only lesson I really learned from that experience is that
it is incredibly hard for women[1] to be treated as adult
colleagues in an environment that acts overwhelmingly as a
white male club.
JJ
On 4/13/13 4:09 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
Do you disagree, are you saying that the IETF should only/first try
to address only gender bias?
Clearly not, Lou. For one thing, I've repeatedly said that
we're underperforming on a number of axes - repeatedly, and
for another I've said some number of
At 12:15 PM 4/13/2013, John C Klensin wrote:
--On Friday, April 12, 2013 23:37 -0400 Andrew Sullivan
a...@anvilwalrusden.com wrote:
The only lesson I really learned from that experience is that
it is incredibly hard for women[1] to be treated as adult
colleagues in an environment that acts
On April 13, 2013 12:57:09 PM Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/13/13 4:09 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
Do you disagree, are you saying that the IETF should only/first try
to address only gender bias?
Clearly not, Lou.
Great. Glad to hear we agree. That said, some may prefer to
On 13 Apr 2013, at 18:05, Michael StJohns mstjo...@comcast.net wrote:
Maybe what we do is ask some of the large network companies to fund a few
research fellowships on topics that might be of interest to the IETF in the
3-5 year time frame for post-doc types?
They actually do that
SM == SM s...@resistor.net writes:
SM Michael Richardson commented about the apparent bias that we are
SM experiencing [1]. The Area Directors, except for two of them,
SM work for large vendors. Is there a bias in favor of vendors? I
SM don't think so; large vendors have money
Michael == Michael Richardson mcr+i...@sandelman.ca writes:
Michael AS A RESULT, we have 30+ years of the promotion and
Michael retention (not getting
Michael laid off..) of people from those large vendors as well.
I missed a few words there.
As a result of the fact that we have
Hi Michael,
At 11:01 13-04-2013, Michael Richardson wrote:
AS A RESULT, we have 30+ years of the promotion and retention (not getting
laid off..) of people from those large vendors as well.
This is a variation of the old boys club. Let's say that there are
two candidates. Candidate A has 20
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:15:22PM -0400, John C Klensin wrote:
JJ Thompson, Grace Anscomb, etc., notwithstanding. Similarly,
Grace Hopper, Jean Sammet, Jane Thompson, Martha Steenstrup,
Deborah Estrin, Sally Floyd, etc.
I think we're in agreement, but just to emphasise: I have no idea what
This is a variation of the old boys club. Let's say that there are two
candidates. Candidate A has 20 years of IETF experience. Candidate B has 5
years of IETF experience. If the choice is about choosing the best Candidate
A will always be selected.
There may well be some of that going
To: Ray Pelletier rpellet...@isoc.org
Cc: Discussion IETF ietf@ietf.org
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: IETF Diversity Question on Berlin Registration?
And please direct your comments to i...@ietf.org
Thanks
Ray
On Apr 11, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Ray Pelletier wrote:
All
The IETF
On 4/12/2013 12:49 AM, SM wrote:
At 13:46 11-04-2013, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
If the IAB means members, the number for females, as far as I
know(*), is 2/15, or 13 percent. If it means voting members, the
number for females is 1/13, or just under 8 percent.
If I use the 13% I can say that the
Dear Ray,
Outcomes, good or bad, are often influenced by groups sharing a common
interest. Important questions should attempt to measure whether these
interests reflect those of the larger Internet communities.
No gender, sexual orientation, ethic, religious, or political background should
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 04:40:57PM -0800, Melinda Shore wrote:
My own feeling is that if we were to find that the
numbers supported the notion that there's bias
present in the system we probably couldn't do anything
about it without tearing the organization apart, so,
we live with bias, and
On 4/12/2013 10:12 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
I still think that the IETF community at large has no intentional
diversity bias, so the process of discussing and analyzing
diversity in the context of leadership is to help better describe
diversity induced job qualifications as well as
On April 12, 2013 2:33:13 PM Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/12/2013 10:12 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
I still think that the IETF community at large has no intentional
diversity bias, so the process of discussing and analyzing
diversity in the context of leadership is to
On 4/12/2013 11:04 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
While I've been very reluctant to jump on this topic, I have to ask
what's the basis for this assertion?
I think the numbers are pretty compelling, which is why
I think they would deserve scrutiny if there's the
possibility of remediation if a problem
Hi Spencer,
At 07:38 12-04-2013, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
I was just checking the math.
I understand. :-)
I couldn't possibly say what good means, and I'm interested in
better understanding what diverse means, to this, ummm, at least
somewhat diverse community ...
There is an underlying
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 10:33:13AM -0800, Melinda Shore wrote:
address. As I said I think that looking at the pool of
nominees who've accepted their nominations and comparing
it to the pool of people selected would provide one
very rough measure of bias (explicit or otherwise) in
one stage
At 02:11 PM 4/12/2013, Melinda Shore wrote:
And I don't know if you intended to or not, but what you
communicated is The best candidates are nearly always
western white guys, since that's who's being selected.
That's a problematic suggestion.
I respect you, Melinda. I think you are smarter and
On Apr 12, 2013, at 4:01 PM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
Let's take IAOC members as an example. NomCom chose two men from the United
States. The IAB chose a man from the United States. The IESG chose a man
from the United States. The ISOC Board of Trustees chose a man from the
United
James == James Polk jmp...@cisco.com writes:
James The nomcom isn't randomly picking hats in a crowd. They are
James picking talent of those that have volunteered to serve. At
Volunteered, and who have employer/funding support.
The apparent bias that we are experiencing is the result
Hi Ted,
At 14:06 12-04-2013, Ted Lemon wrote:
I'd like to take slight exception to one thing that this paragraph
implies: that only a person who looks like me and comes from the
same region can represent my interests. I
Let's see how many IETF participants (I'll exclude voting members of
SM wrote:
Ted Lemon wrote:
So in fact you don't need to put some percentage of white males on
the IESG, the IAB or the IAOC to make me happy. I want people on
these bodies who feel strongly about open standards, rough consensus
and running code. That's the kool-aid I have drunk,
On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:32 PM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
Thomas Narten mentioned that: we have the tendency to pick the people we
know and trust, which is understandable. How many IAB members feel strongly
about open standards, rough consensus and running code? To know the answer I
would
On 4/12/13 1:26 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
No argument from me, I'm just asking that a comment/position/question
that I don't understand be substantiated.
And I'm telling you that I think the numbers are highly suggestive
of bias. We can take a swing at getting a very rough handle on
that but I'm
On 4/12/2013 8:51 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:32 PM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
Thomas Narten mentioned that: we have the tendency to pick the people we know and
trust, which is understandable. How many IAB members feel strongly about open
standards, rough consensus and
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 06:22:17PM -0800, Melinda Shore wrote:
to be the best. Pretty much every organization that applauds
itself for its meritocratic reward structure (to the extent
that an I* gig is a reward) and yet only advances white
guys says the same thing.
Speaking only
Andrew Sullivan a...@anvilwalrusden.com wrote:
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 06:22:17PM -0800, Melinda Shore wrote:
to be the best. Pretty much every organization that applauds
itself for its meritocratic reward structure (to the extent
that an I* gig is a reward) and yet only advances white
And please direct your comments to i...@ietf.org
Thanks
Ray
On Apr 11, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Ray Pelletier wrote:
All
The IETF is concerned about diversity. As good engineers, we would like
to attempt to measure diversity while working on addressing and increasing
it. To that end, we are
I see no harm in including these type of question as optional.
Personally I do not care if it were mandatory but I think that the most
sensible thing to do is to add it as optional.
It would be also good to see the complete set of questions.
So, I support.
Regards,
as
On 4/11/2013 8:11 AM, Ray Pelletier wrote:
we are considering adding some possibly sensitive
questions to the registration process, for example, gender.
...
The IAOC would like to hear from the community on this proposal.
The world has quite a bit of experience with such survey
Given how in my understanding, a key concern is really a perceived or real
diversity bias in IETF leadership, if you do add questions about diversity,
please also add
the following questions. In fact, i think it would help the nomcom process to
ask
these questions whether or not you also ask
Hi Ray,
As you may know, the form of the question asked in any survey can have
a major impact on both how it is answered and the rates at which it is
answered. If you are considering adding a question on gender, may I
suggest you look at:
On 4/11/2013 8:00 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
The first three question could allow based on self assessment to evaluate
whether
IETF leadership is biased based on diversity stats or not.
There are actually several questions in there. It
would be interesting to know how the pool of people
On 4/11/13 1:00 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
if you do add questions about diversity, please also add
the following questions.
Please no.
This is about the registration form, not a survey.
.as
When adding diversity questions to the registration form, i think there should
be a very crisp description, whom exactly this information is made available to,
and how it is meant to be used.
If the total stats for example are simply made available publically and there
are not also other stats
questions must be optional to answer too.
Tom
On Apr 11, 2013, at 12:54 PM, Toerless Eckert eck...@cisco.com wrote:
When adding diversity questions to the registration form, i think there should
be a very crisp description, whom exactly this information is made available
to,
and how it
Yes, but then you would end up with a large registration form that
people may decide not to complete at all.
.as
On 4/11/13 1:58 PM, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote:
questions must be optional to answer too.
Tom
On Apr 11, 2013, at 12:54 PM, Toerless Eckert eck...@cisco.com
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:58:07PM -0400, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote:
questions must be optional to answer too.
Definitely.
Tom
On Apr 11, 2013, at 12:54 PM, Toerless Eckert eck...@cisco.com wrote:
When adding diversity questions to the registration form, i think there
should
be a
That's the tail wagging the dog.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 02:19:55PM -0300, Arturo Servin wrote:
Yes, but then you would end up with a large registration form that
people may decide not to complete at all.
.as
On 4/11/13 1:58 PM, Thomas D. Nadeau wrote:
questions must be
Hi Ray,
At 08:11 11-04-2013, Ray Pelletier wrote:
The IETF is concerned about diversity. As good engineers, we would like
to attempt to measure diversity while working on addressing and increasing
it. To that end, we are considering adding some possibly sensitive
questions to the registration
On Apr 11, 2013, at 6:11 PM, Ray Pelletier rpellet...@isoc.org wrote:
All
The IETF is concerned about diversity. As good engineers, we would like
to attempt to measure diversity while working on addressing and increasing
it. To that end, we are considering adding some possibly sensitive
On 4/11/2013 3:09 PM, Yoav Nir wrote:
Dave Crocker suggested getting an expert. I don't think that would help. Such
an expert would tell you that the questions you can ask depends on the group
you are asking. Questions that would be acceptable in one country, would be
inappropriate in
On Apr 11, 2013, at 3:43 PM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
12.5 % of IAOC voting members are female.
0.1% of IAB members are female
0 % of IESG members are female.
Based on the above measurements the IAOC is more diverse. The IAOC already
collects gender-related information. The
At 11:11 AM 4/11/2013, Ray Pelletier wrote:
All
The IETF is concerned about diversity. As good engineers, we would like
to attempt to measure diversity while working on addressing and increasing
it. To that end, we are considering adding some possibly sensitive
questions to the registration
--On Thursday, April 11, 2013 20:09 + Yoav Nir
y...@checkpoint.com wrote:
On Apr 11, 2013, at 6:11 PM, Ray Pelletier
rpellet...@isoc.org wrote:
All
The IETF is concerned about diversity. As good engineers, we
would like to attempt to measure diversity while working on
Hi, SM,
This may be a misprint ...
On 4/11/2013 3:21 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Apr 11, 2013, at 3:43 PM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
12.5 % of IAOC voting members are female.
0.1% of IAB members are female
0 % of IESG members are female.
Based on the above measurements the IAOC is
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Spencer Dawkins
spen...@wonderhamster.orgwrote:
Hi, SM,
This may be a misprint ...
On 4/11/2013 3:21 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Apr 11, 2013, at 3:43 PM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
12.5 % of IAOC voting members are female.
0.1% of IAB members are
On Apr 11, 2013, at 4:50 PM, David Meyer
d...@1-4-5.netmailto:d...@1-4-5.net wrote:
Agreed, however, it would seem to me that at least one question that one might
as is whether these percentages are representative of the IETF population at
large.
A rough eyeball check at the plenary in Orlando
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote:
On Apr 11, 2013, at 4:50 PM, David Meyer d...@1-4-5.net wrote:
Agreed, however, it would seem to me that at least one question that one
might as is whether these percentages are representative of the IETF
population at
On Apr 11, 2013, at 5:10 PM, David Meyer d...@1-4-5.net
Yes, but that is a different question. --dmm
IOW, you are suggesting that the percentages among non-attending participants
may be substantially different than the percentages among attending
participants? That's a point worth
Suggesting that simply diversity stats across all IETF participants can help
to deduce anything about leadership diversity bias is ignoring qualification
and availability of candidates. Thats why i proposed the questions i would like
to see
in a questionaire.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 09:14:59PM
On 4/11/2013 1:26 PM, Michael StJohns wrote:
I think this is a pretty underspecified proposal.
In general, you use a survey to answer specific questions that have come up
during postulate creation.
...
I'd like a more fully specified proposal before saying yea or nay.
+10
Those are some
SM == SM s...@resistor.net writes:
SM 12.5 % of IAOC voting members are female.
SM 0.1% of IAB members are female
SM 0 % of IESG members are female.
SM Based on the above measurements the IAOC is more diverse. The
SM IAOC already
Stats without standard deviations are
On 4/11/2013 1:38 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
Suggesting that simply diversity stats across all IETF participants can help
to deduce anything about leadership diversity bias is ignoring qualification
and availability of candidates. Thats why i proposed the questions i would
like to see
in a
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