Re: Normative figures

2006-01-10 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 07:46:42PM +, Stewart Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 73 lines which said: For example you could say the following in text : [long and complicated example deleted] For such examples (do note that your example is an illustration of a point and

Re: Normative figures

2006-01-10 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 05:35:51PM -0500, Gray, Eric [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 211 lines which said: The reality is that putting things entirely in pictures means that less validation of the intent of the picture is possible. Automatic validation (by a program) is not possible

RE: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread Brian Rosen
It's trivial for a human, but not for a computer. Many things trivial for humans are not trivial for computers. The kind of harvesting you are talking about is trivial for a human from any format as long as your editor can paste while losing formatting. What we are seeing is increasing use of

RE: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread David B Harrington
Hi, What we are seeing is increasing use of fully automated tools that don't have humans identifying which octets are MIB and which are code. You can't do that with plain ASCII. MIB modules may be a bad example for you to use. All MIB modules start with a BEGIN character string and end

Re: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread Theodore Ts'o
On Tue, Jan 10, 2006 at 08:09:10AM -0500, Brian Rosen wrote: It's trivial for a human, but not for a computer. Many things trivial for humans are not trivial for computers. The kind of harvesting you are talking about is trivial for a human from any format as long as your editor can paste

Re: Normative figures

2006-01-10 Thread Brian E Carpenter
Bob Braden wrote: * * Normative figures perhaps. Normative equations definitely. Scott, How about Sections 4.2.3.3 and 4.2.3.4 of RFC 1122 (1889), for examples of readable equations in ASCII? I my experience, normative protocol technical specifications rarely need equations much more

Re: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread Brian E Carpenter
... What we are seeing is increasing use of fully automated tools that don't have humans identifying which octets are MIB and which are code. You can't do that with plain ASCII. You can do that with meta-data encoded in plain ASCII. In fact, that would work better for automated extraction

RE: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread Brian Rosen
Ted You are arguing that we have been producing documents for a long time with only primitive tools and we don't need to make any new tools. You are losing that argument. We are increasing the number, and usefulness of tools, and most of us appreciate these tools and want more of them. The

RE: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread Brian Rosen
sorry, couldn't help it You mean, like xml? -Original Message- From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 8:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Alternative formats for IDs ... What we are seeing is increasing use of fully

Re: Normative figures

2006-01-10 Thread Stephane Bortzmeyer
On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 07:46:42PM +, Stewart Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 73 lines which said: For example you could say the following in text : router A connects to router B and D, the cost from A to B is 2, and the cost from A to D is 4. Router B connects to router C.

RE: Binary Choices?

2006-01-10 Thread Gray, Eric
Ted, I think we disagree on fine points and agree on the bigger points. As Melinda Shore aptly put it ('objection to proposed change to consensus' on Saturday, 1/7/2006, at 10:15 AM Eastern Time): 'Consensus process leads to decisions being made through synthesis and

Re: Working Group chartering

2006-01-10 Thread Andy Bierman
Burger, Eric wrote: IMHO, *way* too many I*E*TF work groups get chartered based on an idea. We then spend tons of resources on figuring out if the idea will work. We produce lots of half-baked documents with little basis in working code. Then folks try implementing what's been spec'ed, find it

informal survey

2006-01-10 Thread Carl Malamud
Hi - I'm conducting an informal, non-scientific survey with the aim of trying to understand within an order of magnitude how much it costs folks to contribute to open source software. If any of you have 30 seconds and feel like answering 3 questions, please mail your responses back to me.

Re: Working Group chartering

2006-01-10 Thread Dave Crocker
IMHO, *way* too many I*E*TF work groups get chartered based on an idea. ... Standardize stuff that already works -- what a concept. ... I don't care how the technology gets developed. IRTF, vendors, universities, whatever. The current model in the IETF appears to be: Your running

RE: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread Paul Hoffman
At 9:45 AM -0500 1/10/06, Brian Rosen wrote: Do you have any idea how painful it is to build any kind of product that has good management simply because there is no library of MIBs, with references to documents? There isn't even a LIST of IETF MIBs. You can't figure out if a document has a MIB

Re: Working Group chartering

2006-01-10 Thread Dave Crocker
IMHO, *way* too many I*E*TF work groups get chartered based on an idea. ... Standardize stuff that already works -- what a concept. ... I don't care how the technology gets developed. IRTF, vendors, universities, whatever. The current model in the IETF appears to be: Your running

RE: Normative figures

2006-01-10 Thread Gray, Eric
Stewart, Yes, you are correct. But, if you had correctly understood the comment you quote below, you would realize that we're clearly in agreement already - at least on that aspect of the discussion. :-) My point is that we make inclusion of elaborate figures more

RE: Normative figures

2006-01-10 Thread Gray, Eric
Stewart, You address this to me - though I do not make these rules. However, I will do my best to answer your question. In the case you pose below, almost incomprehensible is the key phrase. Had you not qualified incomprehensible, the answer would be no, at least IMO.

RE: Working Group chartering

2006-01-10 Thread Gray, Eric
Eric, --- [SNIP --- -- IMHO, *way* too many I*E*TF work groups get chartered based on -- an idea. We then spend tons of resources on figuring out if the -- idea will work. We produce lots of half-baked documents with -- little basis in working code. Then folks try implementing -- what's been

Re: objection to proposed change to consensus

2006-01-10 Thread Sam Hartman
Stewart == Stewart Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think these are valuable inputs as well. There are people involved; whether these people are happy, whether they will continue to work, are important factors. Of course there are religious arguments on the other side: I

RE: Working Group chartering

2006-01-10 Thread Burger, Eric
Normally, I would agree, but in one area in particular where I'm active, RAI, I've seen it all. There has been a ton of work that was interesting and nice to have. Also, I am a big proponent of microeconomics, which would have rational actors only put forth and push stuff clearly needed for

Re: Working Group chartering

2006-01-10 Thread Melinda Shore
On 1/10/06 12:55 PM, Burger, Eric [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Normally, I would agree, but in one area in particular where I'm active, RAI, I've seen it all. There has been a ton of work that was interesting and nice to have. I'm going to hazard a guess here and suggest that that area has more

Re: Trying to invent a way of determining consensus

2006-01-10 Thread Sam Hartman
I strongly disagree with David's characterization of the IETF, his characterization of how things should work, his claim that the problem he has identified should be fixed and the proposed solution. Consider this a vote of wrong direction. If it becomes apparent that David is attracting

Accessibility of Documents

2006-01-10 Thread Sam Hartman
Hi. I'd hoped to avoid this, but a number of people both on and off-list have asked me to discuss the issue of accessibility of documents. for those who may not know, I'm blind. I try and avoid such discussions. It is fairly clear to me that my standards of accessibility are different than

Re: Normative figures

2006-01-10 Thread Sam Hartman
Stewart == Stewart Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stewart For example you could say the following in text : router Stewart A connects to router B and D, the cost from A to B is 2, Stewart and the cost from A to D is 4. Router B connects to Stewart router C. The cost to router

Re: Accessibility of Documents (veering off-topic)

2006-01-10 Thread Spencer Dawkins
Hi, Sam, Thank you for taking the time to explain this stuff to us. It is very helpful. Just on your last point: pictures: I guess someone might want to include a photo or other picture in an IETF spec. I'd kind of like to know why. Be sure to explain what the point of the photo is in the

RE: Working Group chartering

2006-01-10 Thread Harald Tveit Alvestrand
--On tirsdag, januar 10, 2006 12:26:22 -0600 James M. Polk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 12:55 PM 1/10/2006 -0500, Burger, Eric wrote: Also, I am a big proponent of microeconomics, which would have rational actors only put forth and push stuff clearly needed for products. HOWEVER, in the

Re: Normative figures

2006-01-10 Thread Frank Ellermann
Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: Here is the Graphviz code, to compare (I also attached the automatically produced PNG but Graphviz can make PDF or SVG as well) Nice, I've always loved graph theory. Now let it colour the shortest path fromn B to D, and then ask it for some decent ASCII art

Re: Accessibility of Documents (veering off-topic)

2006-01-10 Thread John C Klensin
--On Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 16:58 -0600 Spencer Dawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I'm also thinking that if an RFC is bad enough, having pictures of authors/editors might make it easier to recognize the guilty parties and organize a lynch mob, and that might do more to improve our

Re: Accessibility of Documents (veering off-topic)

2006-01-10 Thread Lucy E. Lynch
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006, John C Klensin wrote: --On Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 16:58 -0600 Spencer Dawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I'm also thinking that if an RFC is bad enough, having pictures of authors/editors might make it easier to recognize the guilty parties and organize a

Re: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread Frank Ellermann
Paul Hoffman wrote: If any of those features came free or very cheap, that would be great. JFTR: The last xml2rfc version under test (pre3) supported to validate ABNF on the fly for artwork type=abnf if the source asks for strict processing. Bye, Frank

RE: Alternative formats for IDs

2006-01-10 Thread Brian Rosen
I'd mostly agree if this was a one off, but it's not; it requires continuous effort to maintain. My experience that manual is usually cheapest if it only has to be done once, and automation is cheapest if it has to be continuously maintained. YMMV. Most of the harvesting of sections of things

Re: Accessibility of Documents (veering off-topic)

2006-01-10 Thread Spencer Dawkins
Dear Dave and Lucy, watch how you use the word lynch please. As the oldest of six I'm a bit *sensitive* to mob comments. ;-) Lucy, I suspect that they merely were making a spelling error, since I'm sure they were referring to folk who are truly essential, and therefore qualify as linch

Last Call: 'Media Type Registration for SMPTE Material Exchange Format (MXF)' to Informational RFC

2006-01-10 Thread The IESG
The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider the following document: - 'Media Type Registration for SMPTE Material Exchange Format (MXF) ' draft-edwards-mime-mxf-01.txt as an Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits

Protocol Action: 'Detecting MPLS Data Plane Failures' to Proposed Standard

2006-01-10 Thread The IESG
The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Detecting MPLS Data Plane Failures ' draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-13.txt as a Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Multiprotocol Label Switching Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alex Zinin and Bill Fenner. A URL of