IEA Bottom Line (was: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA))

Folks, I've just spent several hours reading my way through much of through the long and fascinating thread caused by the BOF announcement. I should probably just remain silent, but the traffic causes me to have a few thoughts. Some of them have been mentioned on the list in one form or anot

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So my question remains: are we doing the 3 billion asians a favor by forcing them to be able to tell the difference between e-caron and e-breve? I got some advertising for www.renault-branchenloesungen.de the other day, because I'm part of the target group "clearly" exp

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 05:11:20PM +0100, Jean-Jacques Puig wrote: > Agree. Another point is that many firms print contact / support / sales > mail addresses on documents. So may also individuals in some > circumstances (teachers on the hard copy of their teaching doc, > classified advertisements o

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 09:50:06AM -0500, John Stracke wrote: > I think the only times I've seen anybody use PDAs to exchange contact > information were at IETF meetings, in the hallways, when people had time > to kill. It just takes too long. Typically, when two companies are > meeting, and y

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 09:50:06AM -0500, John Stracke wrote: > Dave Aronson wrote: > > >Think also of many businesses that cater to the general public, from > >bleeding-edge geeks like us, to those who can barely spell PDA and > >don't know what one is. > > > I think the only times I've seen an

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ... > Are we doing *anybody* favors ... Contrary to super heated claims about unfairness and disenfranchisement, the purposes of this approaching train wreck do not include doing any

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 06:49:13AM -0600, Spencer Dawkins wrote: > I agree with Dave in the general case ("the goal is to go beyond > today's Internet"), but am wondering if that also requires us to go > beyond today's language capability when we start leaking these > addresses between enclaves. I

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

At 23:24 30/10/03, Markus Stumpf wrote: A big fair in Munich had tested kinda electronic cards lately. As you buy your ticket you type in your contact data and it is printed on the card as a barcode. Exhibitors had barcode readers and special software, so if you want to make a contact you hand over

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Thu October 30 2003 17:24, Markus Stumpf wrote: > - How long will there be paper business cards? Don't a lot people > already exchange business cards per handheld/organizer? IMHO, always, even for ones with email addresses (and URLs and so on) on them. Even those who lug PDAs around ever

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Dave Aronson wrote: Think also of many businesses that cater to the general public, from bleeding-edge geeks like us, to those who can barely spell PDA and don't know what one is. I think the only times I've seen anybody use PDAs to exchange contact information were at IETF meetings, in the ha

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:13:55 PST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: > Forget Mongolian. Think Chinese and Hindi, plus related languages that > use their character sets. Between the two of them you have nearly 3 > billion potential users, i.e. half the world's population. Admittedly > not all of them are lite

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Forget Mongolian. Think Chinese and Hindi, plus related languages that use their character sets. Between the two of them you have nearly 3 billion potential users, i.e. half the world's population. Admittedly not all of them are literate, and many do understand the Latin character set, but this is

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

At 01:24 30/10/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:33:31 +0800, Tan Tin Wee said: >snip If whatever Mongolia was doing was guaranteed to stay in Mongolia, it wouldn't be an issue. However, people inside the enclave *will* want to communicate with outsiders as well - and the

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:32:46 +0800, James Seng said: to your opinion but please do so in other place, and not here. The group is suppose to work on Internationalization of Email address (identifiers), not debate whether we need it or not. Any group that addresses "ho

RE: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

JS>I seen John and Paul proposal but I have not seen Michel. Is there a draft that I can read JS>up? I don't have a proposal. I am listed there as a co-editor of the IRI spec which has a peripheral impact on the IEA (such as extending the URI mailto scheme). Like many I am listening with inter

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Thu October 30 2003 07:49, Spencer Dawkins wrote: > leaking between two non-Latin > enclaves is where the rubber meets the road, Specifically, two enclaves with *different* non-Latin character sets. (Probably what you meant, but) > I've worked with too many smart people from Asia/Pac

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Ummm, I'm not a Genius of E-mail, but I have sent a few. :-} The very-helpful scenario Valdis included a couple of notes back ("if we punt on common ability to use Latin glyphs") has happened in my life, at the presentation level - I've been swapping e-mail back and forth with some very talented p

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Valdis, VKve> Mark actually *does* have a *very* valid point - on today's internet, if you 1. The goal is to go beyond today's internet. (But then, that is always the goal of a new standard.) 2. Although the primary focus of IETF work is to make standards for global interoperability, there are

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Valdis, I think your example underscores the difference between localization of an interface to make use of local language/script and globalization that permits interworking among all parties, independent of their local language and script. the confusion between these two (familiar user interfac

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:33:31 +0800, Tan Tin Wee said: > And if they need to send email to outsiders, then they would > send in ASCII email address, as routinely as they would OK.. I get that part. Now for the big question: You're there in this Mongolian intranet, and find you need to ask me a te

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:32:46 +0800, James Seng said: > to your opinion but please do so in other place, and not here. The group > is suppose to work on Internationalization of Email address > (identifiers), not debate whether we need it or not. Any group that addresses "how" and "for which conte

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

I do not believe that this is true for Chinese. AFAIK, Chinese primary school kids use Latin script with hanyu-pinyin as a stopgap prior to their mastery of Han script (which takes many years). Nope. Hanyu Pinyin was designed to replace the Han ideograph but it never did. Note that when I say "r

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Crispin, You need to get out of US (or Wsshington) more often. -James Seng I am not convinced that it is possible to use a computer on the Internet anywhere in the world without at least a basic acquaintance with Latin script. I do not believe many individuals (other than primary school children

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Dave Crocker scripsit: > Oh? You mean that Unicode does not fit directly -- ie, with no special > encoding rules -- into 32 bits, or 24 bits, or somesuch. Nope. The Unicode character set maps characters to integers. How the integers are mapped to bytes is defined by the encoding rules, of whic

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Dave Crocker scripsit: > That's right. It is an "encoding". Raw Unicode takes more than 8-bits. Lots > more. UTF-8 is a method of encoding those raw bits into a non-raw form. [snip] > It might be a more efficient encoding, but it is no more "native" or "direct" > or "raw" than ACE. That's o

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

> As for the protocol, I could have sworn that users do not type protocol data > units directly, or at least that they haven't for roughly 25 years. (Another > jibe, citing the fact that utf-8 is, itself, a modification to "raw" unicode > is probably worth repeating, here.) While it doesn't reall

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

John, JC> That's only true if you take the position that there are no native/direct/raw JC> encodings of Unicode. Oh? You mean that Unicode does not fit directly -- ie, with no special encoding rules -- into 32 bits, or 24 bits, or somesuch. You mean that Unicode does not need special rules to

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On 10:31 28/10/03, Zefram said: I think the first task in this area should be to investigate the nature and degree of desire for non-ASCII local parts. This desire needs to be weighed against the benefits we derive from writing all local parts in a small, fixed alphabet (ASCII printables). May

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Mark, >> (Another >> jibe, citing the fact that utf-8 is, itself, a modification to "raw" unicode >> is probably worth repeating, here.) MD> When Unicode is expressed as a series of bytes, there are a number of equally MD> valid sncoding schemes (aka serializations). UTF-8 is one of those scheme

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

ED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 08:12 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) > > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from the idn &

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

> > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one > > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > > Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're > going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various > UNIX/Linux vendors

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

ED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "IMAP Extensions WG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 00:50 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

RE: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

> I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be > satisfied with Latin characters only, and no non-Latin characters? > > Mark > __ > http://www.macchiato.com > â à â Yes, I also agree. Especially in India, we have more than 10 Languages

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:13:06 GMT, Zefram said: > It doesn't start to get tricky until we get into the eastern European > languages -- ASCII only intentionally provides western European > diacriticals. "Macrons and carons and cedillas, oh my..." :) Actually, ASCII doesn't intentionally provide an

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

John, JCK> If one is going to consider internationalization of email JCK> addresses in a way that permits them to move through the mail JCK> protocol in some traditional Unicode encoding (e.g., UTF-8), JCK> then ...then we get to repeat the mime/esmtp debates all over again. After all, why shou

Location of the IMAA list (was: RE: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA))

At 11:54 AM -0500 10/28/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The BOF description lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] as the discussion list, but this discussion is being cc:ed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd suggest that you move this discussion to whichever of those lists is actually correct. It is [EMAIL PROTECTED], altho

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

--On Monday, October 27, 2003 11:10 -0800 Mark Crispin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > >> Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like > to drill down >> on this just a bit. > >> What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: > >> [s

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Dave, (distro trimmed to IMAA and IETF lists; I hope we can soon get rid of the latter too). One large problem with the charter draft (I'm too tired to know if there are small ones)... If one is going to consider internationalization of email addresses in a way that permits them to move through

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST, Mark Davis said: > email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one with > Japanese (e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]). This gets interesting in the context of a "reply all". Apologies for breaking the UTF-8 in the quote, but it's illustrative - if the

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

--On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:12 -0500 Marc Blanchet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from > the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what > is really new in this discussion? See the draft. Quick answer: DNS interfaces real

RE: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Excuse me, but could you please constrain this conversation to fewer than 9 (nine!) e-mail lists? The BOF description lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] as the discussion list, but this discussion is being cc:ed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd suggest that you move this discussion to whichever of those lists is a

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

it appears to me that this thread is not very different from the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what is really new in this discussion? Marc. -- Tuesday, October 28, 2003 07:10:59 -0800 Mark Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote/a ecrit: >> > (I agree that it's currently nearly imp

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Mark Crispin wrote: > In many regions where Latin >diacriticals are used, there is no acceptable transform of a surname to a >form that does not use diacriticals. Simply omitting the diacritical >causes (at least to the inhabitants of those regions) a misspell

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > The number of people in India who can read and write only their native > language, but have no usable knowledge of Latin script, is much larger > than the tiny number who are familiar with both. I'm told that this is > true for many native speakers of

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Mark Crispin writes: On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're going to undertake solving *that* pro

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

At 2003-10-27 19:37:37 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I do not believe many individuals (other than primary school children) are > literate in their native language but are completely illiterate in Latin > script. This does not mean "being able to read or write the English > language"; rather

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > Based on what I've seen, I think it quite likely that people will want email > addresses in their native script, even if that means that outsiders can't > (easily) use those email address. That may well be the case. > We should remember that for a great ma

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be satisfied with Latin > characters only, and no non-Latin characters? I didn't say that. I stated my belief that, for reasons of practicality, most individuals in regions which do not use Latin script acc

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

t;; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "IMAP Extensions WG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mon, 2003 Oct 27 17:15 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Int

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like to drill down > on this just a bit. > What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: > [snip] I agree that this needs to be stated, but someone other than me will have to do it. I believe that

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

CTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mon, 2003 Oct 27 11:10 Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > >

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

> Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized local-parts. Restricting the disucssion to local-part

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Pete, >>RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding >>RB> other potentially relevent issues. PR> I agree. Limiting discussion at this point to local-part does not PR> take into account some of the possibilities. That was exactly the intent of the text. We have alrea

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Dave Crocker wrote: > This poses a fundamental >barrier for users needing mail addresses to be expressed in a richer set of >characters, I have yet to see this "need" established. Everyone who has supported internationalised mail addresses has axiomat

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:39:32PM -0800, Mark Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote a message of 76 lines which said: > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are > quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all email > addresses. It

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On 10/27/03 at 6:42 PM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: RB> Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main RB> issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of RB> internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized RB> local-parts. Really? What work

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Roy, >> Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) RB> Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main RB> issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of RB> internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized RB> local-parts. Really? What wor

Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

- good start! - timeline seems pretty agressive... will see. - would probably good to have a requirement document upfront. Might not the same way that idn requirement ends up, but a narrow-implementable requirement would help to have a concensus (hopefully) on what needs to be done. - while the id

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Folks, On the theory that discussions go better when they have a concrete deliverable, here is a proposed charter for a proposed working group. The following started with Mark Crispin's text, although it might not look it. Besides the usual goals for a charter, the following text attempts to spec

Re: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

I seen John and Paul proposal but I have not seen Michel. Is there a draft that I can read up? ps: I wont be able to join the meeting but I am interested in the subject. -James Seng Patrik Fältström wrote: At the IETF in Minneapolis, there will be a BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (I

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Mon October 27 2003 12:30, WJCarpenter wrote: > mc> As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 > mc> Latin alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special > mc> characters in the ASCII character set. There is a growing need > to > > upper and lower case alpha

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

mc> As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 mc> Latin alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special mc> characters in the ASCII character set. There is a growing need to upper and lower case alphabetics -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] (WJCarpenter)PGP 0x91865119 38 95

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > what problem are we trying to solve here? I agree with Keith. This isn't to say that I dispute that there is a problem to be solved -- indeed, I think that the problem is apparent to all -- but we must have a problem statement that we all agree upon befor

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Mark, Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like to drill down on this just a bit. What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: a. for users of many languages (particularly those not using Latin alphabets) email addresses are difficult to remember b. for users of many lan

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

-- Monday, October 27, 2003 10:52:22 -0500 Keith Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote/a ecrit: >> PF>What are the next steps for the IETF? >> >> Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? > > let's back up a step further. > > what problem are we trying to solve here? to me, that

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

On 10/27/03 at 10:52 AM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: DC: Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? As was mentioned in the draft agenda at , we want to simply start the discussion, not immediately attempt to charter a working group. let's back u

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

> PF>What are the next steps for the IETF? > > Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? let's back up a step further. what problem are we trying to solve here? Keith

Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

Patrik, Thanks for putting this BOF together. PF> Where should the IETF tackle it? I am not sure I understand this question. Please clarify. PF>What are the next steps for the IETF? Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? (I realize that the presence of such differ

FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)

At the IETF in Minneapolis, there will be a BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA). It is *preliminary* on the agenda on Monday, November 10, 2003 at 1530-1730. Chairs: Pete Resnick, Patrik Fältström Mailing list:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (other salient lists include [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Agenda: