RFCVision (Was Re: Finding information)
Hi Willie, I came up with a tool (rfcvision) couple of years ago for personal use that did something like this. You can check it out at http://www.sureshk.com/rfcvision It is not production quality but it should help you. Let me know if you have any comments/suggestions. Cheers Suresh Willie Gillespie wrote: As someone new to the IETF, how should I go about doing the following? I want to find some information about IMAP and its extensions. Let's say I found RFC 1730. How would I know that it had been obsoleted by RFC 2060 and then by RFC 3501? How do I find the extensions? I don't necessarily want to search through a list of 5000 entries to find what I want. That's where I think a naming scheme like IETF-IMAP would be handy. Then I could look at a list of IETF-IMAP and see IETF-IMAP-2003 would be newer than IETF-IMAP-1996. But that's beside the point. As of right now, how do I find this information? Is there a handy tool on tools.ietf.org that I should use? Thanks for your help. Willie ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Finding information
But the hidden variables that you hypothesize here are precisely the type of information I would go to the IETF Web site to get rather than use a more reasonable source like Wikipedia. In particular finding out what the latest version of a specification is. Telling people to plug 1724 into the RFC search engine to find the POP3 specification is to put it mildly 1) an arrogant waste of the readers time and 2) gives the wrong result. I have been thinking quite a bit about usability in the past few weeks, in particular trying to work out how to codify some of the rules that Nielsen gives in his book in a form that is verifiable. One approach that does seem to be useful is to think in terms of task scenarios, similar to use cases but more concrete. Just defining task scenarios is a big start. For the IETF Web site I would propose that we need to consider the following tasks (amongst others): 1) Find out the status of an IETF proposal or specification 2) Find the latest documents describing an IETF specification 3) Find out how to submit a proposal to the IETF 4) Find out a point of contact for a proposal or specification We then look at the Web site to determine whether it meets the following rules: 1) Sufficiency of information - is there enough information to complete the specified task? 2) Complexity - how many steps does a task require? how much information must the user remember to complete it? The IETF Web site is built to the old fallacy that minimizing the information provided to the user is the same thing as reducing complexity. That is utter B.S. The user gets confused and considers the problem complex because they have too little information or irrelevantinformation. If you build out the state table for what the user is required to do in order to fulfill these simple tasks it quickly becomes apparent that 1) The user is required to know vast amounts of folklore. That is information that is not provided to the user. 2) The process is unnecessarily complex 3) Most of the useful information is not even present on the site anyway, the site you really want to go to is the tools site. From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 22/01/2008 2:17 AM To: Henrik Levkowetz Cc: IETF Discussion; Willie Gillespie Subject: Re: Finding information Henrik Levkowetz skrev: On 2008-01-21 11:24 Stephane Bortzmeyer said the following: On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 03:01:24AM -0800, Tony Li [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 23 lines which said: Or, you can google IMAP and come up with 3501 straight away... Bad idea. Not only it makes the RFC process depend on an external organization, but it often fails for the reasons explained by the OP. For instance, googling Sieve does not bring back RFC 5228... Submitting 'sieve' in the document search form on http://tools.ietf.org/html returns 3028 as the first result, and a link to the htmlized 3028 which notes that it has been obsoleted by 5228. (I'm surprised that the search results doesn't already include 5228, too, but I expect they will fairly soon). The sieve WG web page also doesn't list 5228 as a product, so I guess some routine updates are on hold while the transition is taking place. Harald ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 03:42:51PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 24 lines which said: I want to find some information about IMAP and its extensions. Let's say I found RFC 1730. How would I know that it had been obsoleted by RFC 2060 and then by RFC 3501? [...] http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcxx00.html presents the information that is implicit in rfc-index No, it presents *less* information (which may be a good thing) and, for instance, it would not answer to the OP's original question since it does not mention 1730 at all. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 03:01:24AM -0800, Tony Li [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 23 lines which said: Or, you can google IMAP and come up with 3501 straight away... Bad idea. Not only it makes the RFC process depend on an external organization, but it often fails for the reasons explained by the OP. For instance, googling Sieve does not bring back RFC 5228... ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
Thanks to all who have responded to my question, either directly or to the list. They have been very helpful. Willie Willie Gillespie wrote: As someone new to the IETF, how should I go about doing the following? I want to find some information about IMAP and its extensions. Let's say I found RFC 1730. How would I know that it had been obsoleted by RFC 2060 and then by RFC 3501? How do I find the extensions? I don't necessarily want to search through a list of 5000 entries to find what I want. That's where I think a naming scheme like IETF-IMAP would be handy. Then I could look at a list of IETF-IMAP and see IETF-IMAP-2003 would be newer than IETF-IMAP-1996. But that's beside the point. As of right now, how do I find this information? Is there a handy tool on tools.ietf.org that I should use? Thanks for your help. Willie ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
On 2008-01-21 11:24 Stephane Bortzmeyer said the following: On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 03:01:24AM -0800, Tony Li [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 23 lines which said: Or, you can google IMAP and come up with 3501 straight away... Bad idea. Not only it makes the RFC process depend on an external organization, but it often fails for the reasons explained by the OP. For instance, googling Sieve does not bring back RFC 5228... Submitting 'sieve' in the document search form on http://tools.ietf.org/html returns 3028 as the first result, and a link to the htmlized 3028 which notes that it has been obsoleted by 5228. (I'm surprised that the search results doesn't already include 5228, too, but I expect they will fairly soon). Henrik ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
Henrik Levkowetz skrev: On 2008-01-21 11:24 Stephane Bortzmeyer said the following: On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 03:01:24AM -0800, Tony Li [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote a message of 23 lines which said: Or, you can google IMAP and come up with 3501 straight away... Bad idea. Not only it makes the RFC process depend on an external organization, but it often fails for the reasons explained by the OP. For instance, googling Sieve does not bring back RFC 5228... Submitting 'sieve' in the document search form on http://tools.ietf.org/html returns 3028 as the first result, and a link to the htmlized 3028 which notes that it has been obsoleted by 5228. (I'm surprised that the search results doesn't already include 5228, too, but I expect they will fairly soon). The sieve WG web page also doesn't list 5228 as a product, so I guess some routine updates are on hold while the transition is taking place. Harald ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Finding information
Besides the suggestion already given, if you go to http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html start with a search on IMAP. RFC1730 will be one of the first (in chronological order) of the 47 entries, you will find out in the More Info columns that it was obsoleted by RFC2060 and RFC2061. RFC2060 will then be listed as obsoleted by RFC3501, which was updated by a number of RFCs (probably the extensions you look for) and also has an Errata you may want to look at. I hope this helps, Dan -Original Message- From: Willie Gillespie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 1:56 AM To: IETF Discussion Subject: Finding information As someone new to the IETF, how should I go about doing the following? I want to find some information about IMAP and its extensions. Let's say I found RFC 1730. How would I know that it had been obsoleted by RFC 2060 and then by RFC 3501? How do I find the extensions? I don't necessarily want to search through a list of 5000 entries to find what I want. That's where I think a naming scheme like IETF-IMAP would be handy. Then I could look at a list of IETF-IMAP and see IETF-IMAP-2003 would be newer than IETF-IMAP-1996. But that's beside the point. As of right now, how do I find this information? Is there a handy tool on tools.ietf.org that I should use? Thanks for your help. Willie ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
On Jan 20, 2008, at 1:24 AM, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: Besides the suggestion already given, if you go to http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcsearch.html start with a search on IMAP. RFC1730 will be one of the first (in chronological order) of the 47 entries, you will find out in the More Info columns that it was obsoleted by RFC2060 and RFC2061. RFC2060 will then be listed as obsoleted by RFC3501, which was updated by a number of RFCs (probably the extensions you look for) and also has an Errata you may want to look at. Or, you can google IMAP and come up with 3501 straight away... Tony ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
At 10:25 -0800 1/19/08, Bob Braden wrote: * * The RFC repository also has rfc-index.txt, which lists all the RFCs, And an RFC search engine... just type 1730 into the little box, and it will magically return the information you want, including links to the text and to any errata that may exist. I just noticed this thread. In late December I posted this to the DNSEXT sleeping-WG mail list: http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2007/msg00769.html (and there are some follow ups). The IETF document repositories are good at letting you find the document you want if you know the document number. But knowing the document number is often the problem. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis+1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Think glocally. Act confused. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 09:15:26AM -0500, Edward Lewis wrote: At 10:25 -0800 1/19/08, Bob Braden wrote: * * The RFC repository also has rfc-index.txt, which lists all the RFCs, And an RFC search engine... just type 1730 into the little box, and it will magically return the information you want, including links to the text and to any errata that may exist. I just noticed this thread. In late December I posted this to the DNSEXT sleeping-WG mail list: http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2007/msg00769.html (and there are some follow ups). The IETF document repositories are good at letting you find the document you want if you know the document number. But knowing the document number is often the problem. having done stints in retail when i was younger, the most difficult customers would come in the record store and ask for the LP that sounded like ... dum, de dumm, dum,de... the rfc-index is like unto a library card catalog. --bill Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
The information is available on the RFC Editor's web site at http://www.rfc-editor.org/ The RFC Database in various forms such as http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-index2.html tells you the status of each RFC and the RFCs that are associated with it by obsoletes/obsoleted/updated relationships etc. Regards, Elwyn Willie Gillespie wrote: As someone new to the IETF, how should I go about doing the following? I want to find some information about IMAP and its extensions. Let's say I found RFC 1730. How would I know that it had been obsoleted by RFC 2060 and then by RFC 3501? How do I find the extensions? I don't necessarily want to search through a list of 5000 entries to find what I want. That's where I think a naming scheme like IETF-IMAP would be handy. Then I could look at a list of IETF-IMAP and see IETF-IMAP-2003 would be newer than IETF-IMAP-1996. But that's beside the point. As of right now, how do I find this information? Is there a handy tool on tools.ietf.org that I should use? Thanks for your help. Willie ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
* * The RFC repository also has rfc-index.txt, which lists all the RFCs, And an RFC search engine... just type 1730 into the little box, and it will magically return the information you want, including links to the text and to any errata that may exist. Bob Braden ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Finding information
* * http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfcxx00.html presents the Also available in ASCII and in XML: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc-index.txt http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc-index.xml * information that is implicit in rfc-index in a more * digestible form. * *Brian * * ___ * Ietf mailing list * Ietf@ietf.org * https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf * Bob Braden ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Finding information
As someone new to the IETF, how should I go about doing the following? I want to find some information about IMAP and its extensions. Let's say I found RFC 1730. How would I know that it had been obsoleted by RFC 2060 and then by RFC 3501? How do I find the extensions? I don't necessarily want to search through a list of 5000 entries to find what I want. That's where I think a naming scheme like IETF-IMAP would be handy. Then I could look at a list of IETF-IMAP and see IETF-IMAP-2003 would be newer than IETF-IMAP-1996. But that's beside the point. As of right now, how do I find this information? Is there a handy tool on tools.ietf.org that I should use? Thanks for your help. Willie ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
