Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Stefan Winter
Hi, What I hear in these discussions can get translated into a lot of it would be nice and little if any it is essential that. Changes to existing procedures tend to get driven by it is essential that, which is my point. A working group saying that the existing format restrictions are

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Iljitsch van Beijnum
On 3 jul 2009, at 0:35, Pete Resnick wrote: A much better solution would be HTML, if it's sufficiently constrained. Or, gee, we could generalize to a very constrained XML format XML isn't a display format. As Dave put it, the current RFC format is unfriendly, unnecessary, possibly

Weekly posting summary for ietf@ietf.org

2009-07-03 Thread Thomas Narten
Total of 74 messages in the last 7 days. script run at: Fri Jul 3 00:53:06 EDT 2009 Messages | Bytes| Who +--++--+ 8.11% |6 | 8.48% |38843 | iljit...@muada.com 5.41% |4 | 5.94% |27220 |

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Stewart Bryant
Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 3 jul 2009, at 0:35, Pete Resnick wrote: A much better solution would be HTML, if it's sufficiently constrained. Or, gee, we could generalize to a very constrained XML format XML isn't a display format. As Dave put it, the current RFC format is unfriendly,

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Iljitsch van Beijnum
On 3 jul 2009, at 13:13, Stewart Bryant wrote: That is an author centric view. It is far more important to take a reader centric view. Do we have any objective information on what format produced the clearest information transfer in the reader. Well, readers can't read what authors can't

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Stewart Bryant
Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 3 jul 2009, at 13:13, Stewart Bryant wrote: That is an author centric view. It is far more important to take a reader centric view. Do we have any objective information on what format produced the clearest information transfer in the reader. Well, readers

Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Martin Rex
Stefan Winter wrote: I'll have a go at it (I am not a working group, but I hope you allow me to express my opinion anyway). Plain ASCII makes work on drafts which deal with internationalisation very hard. I have just uploaded a draft with an example second-level domain containing the German

Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Julian Reschke
Martin Rex wrote: Stefan Winter wrote: I'll have a go at it (I am not a working group, but I hope you allow me to express my opinion anyway). Plain ASCII makes work on drafts which deal with internationalisation very hard. I have just uploaded a draft with an example second-level domain

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Doug Ewell
As always when this discussion occurs, there are at least three different issues swirling around: 1. ASCII-only vs. UTF-8 2. Plain text vs. higher-level formatting, for text flow and readability 3. Whether it is a good idea to include high-quality pictures in RFCs There are not the same

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread John Leslie
Stewart Bryant stbry...@cisco.com wrote: That is an author centric view. It is far more important to take a reader centric view. I must dissent. Reader-centric views belong to publishing entities that generate income (whether by purchase, subscription, or advertising). There have

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Pete Resnick
On 7/3/09 at 10:16 AM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 3 jul 2009, at 0:35, Pete Resnick wrote: A much better solution would be HTML, if it's sufficiently constrained. Or, gee, we could generalize to a very constrained XML format XML isn't a display format. And how is this

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Stewart Bryant
John Leslie wrote: Stewart Bryant stbry...@cisco.com wrote: That is an author centric view. It is far more important to take a reader centric view. I must dissent. Reader-centric views belong to publishing entities that generate income (whether by purchase, subscription, or

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Douglas Otis
On Jul 3, 2009, at 8:07 AM, Doug Ewell wrote: As always when this discussion occurs, there are at least three different issues swirling around: 1. ASCII-only vs. UTF-8 2. Plain text vs. higher-level formatting, for text flow and readability 3. Whether it is a good idea to include

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Stewart Bryant
Pete Getting rid of a page-layout format as our authoritative form is primary. Using characters that do not occur in English is next down the list. Everything else is extra. Surely maximizing the probability of correct understanding by the reader is primary. Everything else is just a

Two different threads (was: More liberal draft formatting standards required)

2009-07-03 Thread Andrew Sullivan
Dear colleagues, Before the substantive points of the original post get buried under counter-arguments against some _other_ point, I just want to make sure we're all talking about the same things. There are, in my reading, two completely different points in Iljitsch's original post: 1. The

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Dave CROCKER
Pete Resnick wrote: Getting rid of a page-layout format as our authoritative form is primary. Using characters that do not occur in English is next down the list. Everything else is extra. What is primary is to ensure that the revisable form can be easily read 30 years from now when

Re: Two different threads - IETF Document Format

2009-07-03 Thread Joel M. Halpern
Just so it does not get completely overlooked, I will point out that the page numbers are also useful for the table of contents. And the ToC is very helpful to me when I need to find something in the document. (Yes, hyperlinks would help in many cases. But not all.) the ToC is also helpful

Re: RFC archival format, was: Re: More liberal draft formatting standards required

2009-07-03 Thread Doug Ewell
Douglas Otis dotis at mail dash abuse dot org wrote: Reliance upon open source tools ensures the original RFCs and ID can be maintained by others, without confronting unresolvable compatibility issues. Whether a tool is open source or not has nothing to do with how many people know how to

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2009-07-03 Thread Marc Manthey
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