Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-27 Thread Vikram Goyal
set $Linux=Gnu/Liunx# I don't want another flame war on trivialities;)

Hello Guys $ Gals,

Well, I normally do not participate in such discussions, maybe I am a
bit shy or maybe I don't care.

But seriously instead of banging your heads with each other and making
a really good atmosphere vitiated, why don't you guys find a very simple
but effective method of making women aware of as well as interested in $Linux

First use a bit of psychology. Normally, I repeat normally women are shy
of trying new things like tech and more so a geeky OS like linux which
is not simply clicketyclack. So instead of standing on the roadside with
pink placards Join Linux and banners like we are pro-women group and
treat them like queens or equals or whatever... Start at home.

Bring your girlfriend, your sister, your wife, if possible your mother (
if she is interested in computers, which aged people are not ), your
niece etc to the meetings. Presence of women will automatically make
them women friendly, since boys are boys if/when they are alone ( means
in an only boys group ). The women will slowly and gradually understand
the LUG's issues and may become interested in $Linux. Ask them to bring
their friends to the meetings and so on and maybe one day there is an
all-women LUG in delhi.
( since gals are gals in an only gals group ;)

snicker.

Namaste.
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread hassath
On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 10:58, Raj Mathur wrote:

 
 Hassath Also, how about adding a link to the HOW TO ENCOURAGE
 Hassath WOMEN IN LINUX which I sent in my earlier posting? At
 Hassath least that might indicate to members that the list has at
 Hassath least thought about making things woman-friendly.
 
 Can do.

Thanks, much appreciated.
 

 There isn't much there that applies to a group as a whole -- it's
 mostly what individuals can do to encourage women to feel comfortable
 and participate.  Apart from the ``Keep meeting is an accessible
 location'', there's nothing there that the LUG as a whole can do.

The attitude of the individual members of the group will make a
difference. Anyway, whether as individuals, or as a group- if those
suggestions were followed- they would go a long way. And to begin with,
if more people would read the HOW TO, it would help.

Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread Saurabh Nanda
 1. If you reall want a woman in here f**king stop treating them like woman
 and treat them like other human beings.

 2. If Women really think this is helping please look back, it only makes
 us think you want special treatment

THE most sensible post on the thread!

Stop asking for 'special treatment' and start behaving normally. Nnow,
please, don't go off on a tangent with the argument that 'normal'
behaviour is too manly and woman unfriendly, etc. etc. Men  women
have differences which should be resepected. Move on.

Start turning up for meetings. Things will change automagically. 

Btw - I attended only one ILUG-d meet @ Sarai. That was about 4-5
years back. Have not been able to attend any meeting since then... is
this group Saurabh Nanda unfriendly? Probably I should write a HOWTO
on how to make Linux Users Group Saurabh Nanda friendly!

Did you find that joke offensive? (PS: On second thoughts it's a bad
joke... real bad :-p)

There's only one 'feminist' I've met in my entire life who's agreed to
the fact that women ask for wy too much special treatment. She's
fed up of it herself. That's exactly what's happening here. (PS:
http://jayajha.blogspot.com)

I've been on this list for some time now... and I just can't fathom
what exactly it is that stops females from joining and participating
in discussion on the *mailing list*! sheesh.. it's just a mailing
list!!

I haven't been to recent meets... so I can't comment on the women
unfriendly atmosphere there.

Rant stops here... go back to work and be more productive.

Nandz.
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread Raj Mathur
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

 Manpreet == Manpreet Singh Nehra [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Manpreet Would You guys just drop this f**king thread.
Manpreet [snip]

Hey, if you don't like it don't read it!  all people can't be
interested in all things, and it's pretty simple to make out which
posts belong to this thread and which don't.

Regards,

- -- Raju
- -- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
  It is the mind that moves
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread hassath
On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 11:33, Saurabh Nanda wrote:

 snip
 Rant stops here... go back to work and be more productive.
 
 Nandz.

Just proves people aren't actually reading the HOW TO. This mail, and
the one it is responding to (Manpreet's) would be enough to keep women
off the list- now I fully understand why no woman has responded to this
thread. Evolution, education, civilisation- have got us nowhere...
Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Saurabh Nanda wrote:

1. If you reall want a woman in here f**king stop treating them like woman
and treat them like other human beings.



  

2. If Women really think this is helping please look back, it only makes
us think you want special treatment



THE most sensible post on the thread!
  

Sure - shows what attitudes you hold

Stop asking for 'special treatment' and start behaving normally. Nnow,
please, don't go off on a tangent with the argument that 'normal'
behaviour is too manly and woman unfriendly, etc. etc. Men  women
have differences which should be resepected. Move on.

Start turning up for meetings. Things will change automagically. 

Btw - I attended only one ILUG-d meet @ Sarai. That was about 4-5
years back. Have not been able to attend any meeting since then... is
this group Saurabh Nanda unfriendly? Probably I should write a HOWTO
on how to make Linux Users Group Saurabh Nanda friendly!
  

Guess you do have a big ego ? Should not be too much of trouble for you

Did you find that joke offensive? (PS: On second thoughts it's a bad
joke... real bad :-p)

  

There's only one 'feminist' I've met in my entire life who's agreed to
the fact that women ask for wy too much special treatment. She's
fed up of it herself. That's exactly what's happening here. (PS:
http://jayajha.blogspot.com)

  

One does not have to be a feminist to want to not be oppressed.

I've been on this list for some time now... and I just can't fathom
what exactly it is that stops females from joining and participating
in discussion on the *mailing list*! sheesh.. it's just a mailing
list!!

  

If you have been reading the mails of this discussion then there is a 
how to meant specifically for people who can fathom, may be it will help 
you fathom whats happening

again for you kind information kindly go to
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

I haven't been to recent meets... so I can't comment on the women
unfriendly atmosphere there.

  

So don't comment

Rant stops here... go back to work and be more productive.

Nandz.
  

Sure - wonder if women around you in the wrok place feel comfortable ???

I am not a woman but I am not sure if I would be comfortable working 
with people with such insensitive and limited attitudes

ram

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-24 11:33:08 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Men  women have differences which should be resepected. Move on.

Move on is exactly what women are doing, and they don't seem any worse
for it. Remember that we're having this discussion because someone asked
specifically why women don't participate in LUG activities.

 Start turning up for meetings. Things will change automagically. 

Who cares? It's easier to just not turn up for the meetings at all. I've
been doing that for years, and it's worked perfectly for me.

(Oh, and please disabuse yourself of the notion that only women are put
off by crass behaviour. There do exist men who don't think respectful
behaviour is special treatment.)

 Did you find that joke offensive?

What joke? I see only yet another attempt to trivialise a document you
haven't read by invoking a contrived analogy.

It's much more pathetic than offensive.

 I've been on this list for some time now... and I just can't fathom
 what exactly it is that stops females from joining and participating
 in discussion on the *mailing list*!

You've been given multiple, highly-specific answers about what exactly
it is that discourages women from participating in discussion. So far,
apart from your attempt to make fun of them, there is no evidence that
you have tried very hard to fathom anything.

Might I suggest a remedial reading comprehension course?

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread Saurabh Nanda
 again for you kind information kindly go to
 http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

Been there... read that. Not at all informative. The regular
run-of-the-mill stuff!

 I haven't been to recent meets... so I can't comment on the women
 unfriendly atmosphere there.
 
 So don't comment

Dude - you're worse that me in nitpicking and starting flame wars. I
suddenly feel better!

 Sure - wonder if women around you in the wrok place feel comfortable ???
 
 I am not a woman but I am not sure if I would be comfortable working
 with people with such insensitive and limited attitudes

Way too much extrapolation here.

Just so that I don't get labelled an 'insensitive clod' - here goes:

At my institude (college, university, whatever) - I tried initiating a
LUG. Though the whole thing died within a couple of meets (the group
was man *and* woman unfriendly, I guess, he he :-) I noticed something
in the first meet.

There were some men and women who had come to the first meet just for
the heck of it... they wanted to see what's going on, etc.

There was one girl, whom I knew, was interested in Linux, and was very
enthusiastic in participating in the LUG. She didn't speak up in the
first meet, nor in the second - even after being prompted/prodded to
raise her opinion/voice. Then she stopped coming.

What more does one need to do? Fall on our knees and beg to the
females all around the world - PLEASE! Bless us with your benign
presence and opinions... why can't they just behave normally rather
than having special interest groups and movements, etc. etc.

A LUG meet is not a godforsaken place where they're opressed, beaten
up, harassed, sexually assaulted, etc. etc. Why the special treatment
there? Just organize meets at earthly hours and places, so that
females can make it (Delhi is not a nice place to go back late in the
night!)

Nandz.
-- 
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread Saurabh Nanda
 (Oh, and please disabuse yourself of the notion that only women are put
 off by crass behaviour. There do exist men who don't think respectful
 behaviour is special treatment.)

Okay... brings me back to the point - other than making fun of them
when they specifically ask for special treatment... what other kinds
of disrespectful behaviour takes place on the mailing list?

Instead of taking potshots at me, could you actually list out such
disrespectful behaviour on the mailing list which causes such a less
number of women to participate online?

Nandz.
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-24 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-24 12:29:51 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Instead of taking potshots at me, could you actually list out such
 disrespectful behaviour on the mailing list which causes such a
 less number of women to participate online?

Certainly. There have been several instances of such behaviour on this
thread, and multiple people have objected to them each time. If you'd
bothered to read them instead of trying to handwave them all away, it
might have helped you to understand why the woman at your LUG stopped
attending.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-23 Thread Nitin Chandra
 
 3. Perhaps I don't need to respond to the remark
 about women having to
 accept men as they are- it has been responded to.
 But I just want to
 make the point that it is the kind of remark that is
 enough to make a
 woman want to withdraw from the list. No woman is
 obliged to accept any
 man for what he is. (And vice versa). That remark
 illustrates the
 attitude that men are god's gift to womankind. I am
 very sorry to
 disillusion you, but they are most certainly NOT
 


I cant begin to comprehend the limited vision with
which the context of my statment is understood. :)
Well if this is the way individuals have an
understanding, so be it...I Accept their level of
understanding.

No more social cause statments from me. :)

Nitin

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-23 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-22 23:20:30 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 No more social cause statments from me. :)

Excellent. Thank you for your cooperation.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-23 Thread hassath
On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 11:50, Nitin Chandra wrote:

 
 I cant begin to comprehend the limited vision with
 which the context of my statment is understood. :)
 Well if this is the way individuals have an
 understanding, so be it...I Accept their level of
 understanding.
 
 No more social cause statments from me. :)
 
 Nitin
 
Since I was requested to point out every objectionable
mail/post/thought/joke:
I find it objectionable- the implication that I have understood
something larger is because of my limited vision and level of
understanding.
Thanks Nitin, for cooperating by offering to withhold such statements.

Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-23 Thread Prashant Verma
Dear Abhijit and Hassath,

I wanted to say that Nitin may have a point there.
Nitin has mentioned that what he intended to say is
not what you understood from his email. Now, we know
that language has its limitations and words are prone
to misinterpretation, reinterpretation ...whatever
(there you are, I'm out of words :-). And believe it
or not, such examples abound where words don't
accurately convey what a person means.

As in cricket, I hope you will have the generosity of
spirit to extend the benefit of doubt and take Nitin
on his word. I myself have no doubts about the
intentions of anyone on this list. Everyone wants to
have an atmosphere that is conducive to discussion and
learning and where everone is comfortable
participating.  And we are discussing how to turn that
want into a reality.

But I do think that we need to focus on the larger
issue and not on what some individuals may or may not
have meant. If in doubt, clarifications should be
asked for and accepted and people should certainly not
be thanked *pointedly* for withdrawing from the
discussion.

Such deviation from the issue may succeed in making
several people uncomfortable, and strangely enough
that is the problem that this thread set out to solve.

Thanks,
Prashant Verma

--- Abhijit Menon-Sen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 At 2005-08-22 23:20:30 -0700,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  No more social cause statments from me. :)
 
 Excellent. Thank you for your cooperation.
 
 -- ams
 
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-23 Thread hassath
On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 14:13, Prashant Verma wrote:
 Dear Abhijit and Hassath,
 
 I wanted to say that Nitin may have a point there.
 Nitin has mentioned that what he intended to say is
 not what you understood from his email. 

Hi Prashant, 
I am actually quite tired of all this- like i mentioned in my previous
posting- it's not my style at all. But since you have brought it up, let
me say- I have responded to Nitin's posting in a certain manner because
there is enough of a background to leave no reasonable doubt as to what
his attitude is. I really dislike going into finger-pointing like this,
but I am left with no option but to paste below  a couple of clips from
nitin's earlier mails- hopefully, they will illustrate why i have got
angry. I repeat, I generally don't like having to stoop to this, but you
leave me no option, hopefully this will put an end to this.

Well if the context of my statment is not understood
by some people who are challanged...

Been there experienced that.
Well I HAVE BEEN CATCALLED N WISTLED BY GROUP OF WOMEN
UNKNOWN TO ME , SO let not make those kind of
statments again. As from your statment i undestand
that women are so dammingly oppressed.THAT IS your
understanding...MY BELIEF IS WOMEN HAVE EQUAL RIGHT TO
WORK AND PARTY.

The term women are so dammingly oppressed- is enough! And then, who
can say, looking around himself, that women have an equal right to work
and party? It has to be someone who does not want to see the reality of
one-half of the world's population.

The remark being discussed as being 'misrepresented' is this one: 

where by women can accept men as they are and STILL
come forward and make a difference rather than be in
the stand and comment. So women can crib OR make a
difference to LUG as a whole group + Linux.
My request and invitation is for women to accept men
as they are and step forward and play in then LUG
field and make an enormous difference.

whether in the context of this mailing list, or anything larger, I think
it is NOT ok to tell women to accept men as they are. I will NOT accept
any of the men on this mailing list- I will NOT accept sexist jokes or
remarks, and I will NOT accept it when anyone tries to dilute the issue
at hand. If this makes someone uncomfortable, then I can't help it.

Now- I have indeed moved on by giving suggestions- asking people to look
at a specific link, at the very least. I am NOT interested in these kind
of postings anymore, and will not respond to them. Prashant, if you are
indeed interested (and anybody else on the list who is listening)-
please read up the HOW TO, and then come back- maybe we could have a
more useful discussion then.

Regards,
Hassath



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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-23 Thread Pankaj kaushal
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Neither am I a student of sociology or culture, and nor do I have the
necessary knowledge to dwell at this point of time thus, I will not
dwell into the nature of society at large. It is a big question and many
have spent their entire life on the quest which still remains unsolved
and mysterious at best. It does interest me, but to publicly regurgitate
a popular notion or quote focualt is not my style. My understanding of
gender inequality, marginalized communities, religion and sexuality is
not in accord with that which is popular or that which is taught and
this is not the right forum to discuss it. If you are interested we can
take it off-list.
 So the onus is only on those to with pro degrees to make life better. So
 why vote for anyone - whats out stake in that. According to you one
 should stay in an isolated tower and refuse to participate in anything
 else. I am not sure GNU/LINUX suggests that as a good method.

Speak not of which you know nothing.

P.
-- 
Alas, even today there's little worth thinking and saying that does
not grievously wound the state, the gods, and common decency.
-Goethe

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-23 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-22 10:30:29 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Suggestions about what to do next:
 
 a) The talk idea was good - In fact, it needn't be one person coming
 down to talk on Gender issues on public mailing lists and/or take in
 perspective of the greater socio/political aspect.

After some thought, I'm not at all enthusiastic about another talk or
debate or whatever about gender issues and their greater context.
What would it accomplish? I can't think of anything useful.

No, I think it's imperative that people stop associating the idea of
encouraging women to participate with yet-another-talk about how to
encourage women to participate.

I think we should try instead to figure out whom we can invite to talk
about something that doesn't just become a freak sideshow attraction.
(I have at least one idea, but I don't want to talk about it until I
can ask the person involved.)

What are women using Linux for? What interests them? If we talk about
those things, then they might be encouraged to participate.

 c) Changing, or rather adding to the guidelines of the LUG posting
 methods/rules.

Heh. I just noticed that the guidelines say:

Be polite [...] No one minds a little sense of humour though.

:-)

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-23 Thread hassath
On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 09:47, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:

  Suggestions about what to do next:


 No, I think it's imperative that people stop associating the idea of
 encouraging women to participate with yet-another-talk about how to
 encourage women to participate.
 
 I think we should try instead to figure out whom we can invite to talk
 about something that doesn't just become a freak sideshow attraction.

 What are women using Linux for? What interests them? If we talk about
 those things, then they might be encouraged to participate.

Indeed, if I felt that I would be treated as just another human being
with an interest in FLOSS, I would feel encouraged- I (or any other
woman) would dislike being looked at as the 'freak' who decided to be
there...

 
  c) Changing, or rather adding to the guidelines of the LUG posting
  methods/rules.
 
 Heh. I just noticed that the guidelines say:
 
 Be polite [...] No one minds a little sense of humour though.

Also, how about adding a link to the HOW TO ENCOURAGE WOMEN IN LINUX
which I sent in my earlier posting? At least that might indicate to
members that the list has at least thought about making things
woman-friendly.

I find it very interesting and telling that when the thread was being
general, there were many posts to and fro- defensive and offensive. But
after I have requested people to go through the HOW TO- nobody, nobody
has responded to that (is it useful? Can they think of applying any of
those to the delhi LUG?.)
 Does it say something about the seriousness of those who said that they
want feedback from a woman? That HOW TO is written by a whole lot of
women. 

Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-23 Thread Manpreet Singh Nehra
Would You guys just drop this f**king thread.

If you guys really think this discussion is doing anything useful then you
should check the time spent on reading this s**t. Get some life ppl.
1. If you reall want a woman in here f**king stop treating them like woman
and treat them like other human beings.
2. If Women really think this is helping please look back, it only makes
us think you want special treatment, which you can get this way. once you
stop treating yourself as special please look at things at the linux users
angle and stop this WASTEAGE OF TIME. There are loads of better things to
do then discussing this.



 On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 09:47, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:

  Suggestions about what to do next:


 No, I think it's imperative that people stop associating the idea of
 encouraging women to participate with yet-another-talk about how to
 encourage women to participate.

 I think we should try instead to figure out whom we can invite to talk
 about something that doesn't just become a freak sideshow attraction.

 What are women using Linux for? What interests them? If we talk about
 those things, then they might be encouraged to participate.

 Indeed, if I felt that I would be treated as just another human being
 with an interest in FLOSS, I would feel encouraged- I (or any other
 woman) would dislike being looked at as the 'freak' who decided to be
 there...


  c) Changing, or rather adding to the guidelines of the LUG posting
  methods/rules.

 Heh. I just noticed that the guidelines say:

 Be polite [...] No one minds a little sense of humour though.

 Also, how about adding a link to the HOW TO ENCOURAGE WOMEN IN LINUX
 which I sent in my earlier posting? At least that might indicate to
 members that the list has at least thought about making things
 woman-friendly.

 I find it very interesting and telling that when the thread was being
 general, there were many posts to and fro- defensive and offensive. But
 after I have requested people to go through the HOW TO- nobody, nobody
 has responded to that (is it useful? Can they think of applying any of
 those to the delhi LUG?.)
  Does it say something about the seriousness of those who said that they
 want feedback from a woman? That HOW TO is written by a whole lot of
 women.

 Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-23 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manpreet Singh Nehra wrote:

Would You guys just drop this f**king thread.

  

I guess we should drop you and your nonsense from this thread. I am not 
sure what the guidelines are but my guess and vote is that you are 
beyond limits

If you guys really think this discussion is doing anything useful then you
should check the time spent on reading this s**t. Get some life ppl.
  

Maybe you need a course on language , public writing and of course 
sensitisation to issues

1. If you reall want a woman in here f**king stop treating them like woman
and treat them like other human beings.
  

2. If Women really think this is helping please look back, it only makes
us think you want special treatment, which you can get this way. once you
stop treating yourself as special please look at things at the linux users
angle and stop this WASTEAGE OF TIME. There are loads of better things to
do then discussing this.


  


  On this list there are guys and gals

  Your starred language is offensive

Third maybe women are special thats why delhi has one of the lowest man 
women ratio.

And stop wasting your time on this list it does not need commets and 
opinions like yours.

ram

  

On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 09:47, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:



Suggestions about what to do next:




No, I think it's imperative that people stop associating the idea of
encouraging women to participate with yet-another-talk about how to
encourage women to participate.

I think we should try instead to figure out whom we can invite to talk
about something that doesn't just become a freak sideshow attraction.
  

What are women using Linux for? What interests them? If we talk about
those things, then they might be encouraged to participate.
  

Indeed, if I felt that I would be treated as just another human being
with an interest in FLOSS, I would feel encouraged- I (or any other
woman) would dislike being looked at as the 'freak' who decided to be
there...



c) Changing, or rather adding to the guidelines of the LUG posting
methods/rules.


Heh. I just noticed that the guidelines say:

Be polite [...] No one minds a little sense of humour though.
  

Also, how about adding a link to the HOW TO ENCOURAGE WOMEN IN LINUX
which I sent in my earlier posting? At least that might indicate to
members that the list has at least thought about making things
woman-friendly.

I find it very interesting and telling that when the thread was being
general, there were many posts to and fro- defensive and offensive. But
after I have requested people to go through the HOW TO- nobody, nobody
has responded to that (is it useful? Can they think of applying any of
those to the delhi LUG?.)
 Does it say something about the seriousness of those who said that they
want feedback from a woman? That HOW TO is written by a whole lot of
women.

Hassath


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Where Excellence Begins


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-23 Thread Raj Mathur
 Hassath == hassath  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Hassath [snip]

Hassath Indeed, if I felt that I would be treated as just another
Hassath human being with an interest in FLOSS, I would feel
Hassath encouraged- I (or any other woman) would dislike being
Hassath looked at as the 'freak' who decided to be there...

  c) Changing, or rather adding to the guidelines of the LUG
 posting  methods/rules.
 
 Heh. I just noticed that the guidelines say:
 
 Be polite [...] No one minds a little sense of humour though.

Hassath Also, how about adding a link to the HOW TO ENCOURAGE
Hassath WOMEN IN LINUX which I sent in my earlier posting? At
Hassath least that might indicate to members that the list has at
Hassath least thought about making things woman-friendly.

Can do.

Hassath I find it very interesting and telling that when the
Hassath thread was being general, there were many posts to and
Hassath fro- defensive and offensive. But after I have requested
Hassath people to go through the HOW TO- nobody, nobody has
Hassath responded to that (is it useful? Can they think of
Hassath applying any of those to the delhi LUG?.)  Does it say
Hassath something about the seriousness of those who said that
Hassath they want feedback from a woman? That HOW TO is written
Hassath by a whole lot of women.

There isn't much there that applies to a group as a whole -- it's
mostly what individuals can do to encourage women to feel comfortable
and participate.  Apart from the ``Keep meeting is an accessible
location'', there's nothing there that the LUG as a whole can do.

``This document is intended mainly for the male Linux enthusiast who
would like to see more women involved in Linux.''

Regards,

-- Raju

Hassath Hassath

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-19 13:32:33 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 the prevailing atmosphere???

Right. I can answer that question better now, mostly by having studied
the responses in this thread. Let's have a look, shall we?

1. Denial. What's wrong with the atmosphere, dammit?

2. Proof-by-anecdote that everything is just fine.

3. Cheap digs disguised as humour. You know, the kind where, if anyone
   objects, one can look injured and say, But it was a joke! Don't
   women have a sense of humour?

4. If only women bothered to show up more often, they'd see that
   everything is really all right.

5. We've done all we can. It's up to someone else now.

Oh, and when the subject of encouraging women to participate *does* come
up, there's usually this undercurrent of Yeah, we need more hot chicks
in this group, man!

The consequent feeling: Ugh. Better not get involved.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Pankaj kaushal
hassath wrote:
 On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 22:45, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:
 And Pankaj, this thread repeatedly will raise its ugly head because
 this issue has not been resolved. I am not sorry that it causes
 discomfort in your complacent world. 

I am neither discomforted by the discussion nor am I complacent, merely
un-interested in discussions without a result.

 Yes, males do dominate most computer related areas. And not just
 computer related areas.It is a fact- but not one to be plainly accepted.
 The question arises- why is it so? And to take it further, in any field,
 why is it that the marginalised continue to stay marginalised? Is it
 because they are genetically predisposed to being marginalised? Or
 should one ask- What opportunities do they have- are they in any way
 equal to the opportunities of the more privileged? At this moment, I am
 talking only about gender, but my concerns extend to all marginalised
 people, in all areas. It is convenient to say that this is how things
 are- and be complacent about it. 

This was exactly my point, males *do* dominate various fields, similarly
 there are many fields that are dominated by women, teaching for
example. All I wanted to say was that we have a bigger issue at hand.
Its not just that it is *linux* and the language of linux that is
intimidating to women thus they stay away.

This group is a open community, anyone can raise her voice, if there are
women on this list and meetings who feel that the *prevailing
atmosphere* is unfriendly and discouraging then this issue must be
raised by pointing out what exactly makes one un-welcome and it must be
addressed.

This subject does come up every now and then, people wonder why more
women don't participate, they raise the issue and say, we should do
something about it. The thread reaches 50 and everyone forgets about it
because nobody knows what to do.

You have made a start by raising the issue once again. Lets not dwell
into the the nature of society at large but make this group, which you
made yourself a part of by subscribing to the mailing-list a little more
comfortable for women.


P.
-- 
Alas, even today there's little worth thinking and saying that does
not grievously wound the state, the gods, and common decency.
-Goethe

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread hassath
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:25, Pankaj kaushal wrote:

 
 I am neither discomforted by the discussion nor am I complacent, merely
 un-interested in discussions without a result.

If there is a result-less discussion, maybe you could take more
responsibility for it- you too are part of this list. What a typically
privileged attitude - Oh, nothing comes out of these discussions! If
you saw it as being in your interest, if you took ownership, you would
try and get things to change.

 
 This was exactly my point, males *do* dominate various fields, similarly
  there are many fields that are dominated by women, teaching for
 example. All I wanted to say was that we have a bigger issue at hand.
 Its not just that it is *linux* and the language of linux that is
 intimidating to women thus they stay away.
 
 This group is a open community, anyone can raise her voice, if there are
 women on this list and meetings who feel that the *prevailing
 atmosphere* is unfriendly and discouraging then this issue must be
 raised by pointing out what exactly makes one un-welcome and it must be
 addressed.

And we men shall sit back till such time as this happens, and will not
be discomforted by the fact that there is no fair representation. It is
not our responsibility as the privileged gender to make any initiatives-
let the marginalised look after themselves. Amen.

 
 This subject does come up every now and then, people wonder why more
 women don't participate, they raise the issue and say, we should do
 something about it. The thread reaches 50 and everyone forgets about it
 because nobody knows what to do.
 
 You have made a start by raising the issue once again. Lets not dwell
 into the the nature of society at large 

As for not dwelling into the nature of society at large- i am sorry, i
am incapable of seeing things in isolation and closing my eyes to larger
connections- and i do not see it as a failing.


 but make this group, which you
 made yourself a part of by subscribing to the mailing-list a little more
 comfortable for women.

Well, it will help if you refrain from referring to it (ever again) as
ugly head.

And, if you haven't heard any bad jokes, then it just means that you
don't see- that you don't see what is offensive to women. If you check
the freedel blog right away- the topmost post by raju- if you don't find
something objectionable in it- i have only this to say: there are none
as blind as those who will not see.

And yes, specifically, if you want to make the list comfortable for
women, DO NOT put the onus entirely on them- that is guaranteed to
offend women.

Regards,
Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread hassath

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:07, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:
 At 2005-08-19 13:32:33 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  the prevailing atmosphere???
 
 Right. I can answer that question better now, mostly by having studied
 the responses in this thread. Let's have a look, shall we?
 
 1. Denial. What's wrong with the atmosphere, dammit?
 
 2. Proof-by-anecdote that everything is just fine.
 
 3. Cheap digs disguised as humour. You know, the kind where, if anyone
objects, one can look injured and say, But it was a joke! Don't
women have a sense of humour?
 
 4. If only women bothered to show up more often, they'd see that
everything is really all right.
 
 5. We've done all we can. It's up to someone else now.
 
 Oh, and when the subject of encouraging women to participate *does* come
 up, there's usually this undercurrent of Yeah, we need more hot chicks
 in this group, man!
 
 The consequent feeling: Ugh. Better not get involved.
 
 -- ams

Thanks ams- i agree with all your points. I want to add another one,
which i have mentioned in my response to Pankaj- the freedel blog has a
posting (the top one) by raju which has an offensive attempt at
humour. I would like to emphasise yet again- these jokes are not a
reflection of a good sense of humour. And when a woman like me raises an
objection, it is NOT a case of being oversensitive- if you can't see
that and continue to behave like that- yes, women will be put off. I
will be much obliged if i don't have to see jokes like that again on
this list or on the blog.

Regards,
Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Raj Mathur
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

 Hassath == hassath  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Hassath [snip]

Hassath Thanks ams- i agree with all your points. I want to add
Hassath another one, which i have mentioned in my response to
Hassath Pankaj- the freedel blog has a posting (the top one) by
Hassath raju which has an offensive attempt at humour. I would
Hassath like to emphasise yet again- these jokes are not a
Hassath reflection of a good sense of humour. And when a woman
Hassath like me raises an objection, it is NOT a case of being
Hassath oversensitive- if you can't see that and continue to
Hassath behave like that- yes, women will be put off. I will be
Hassath much obliged if i don't have to see jokes like that
Hassath again on this list or on the blog.

Fair enough.  The attempt at humour was supposed to achieve the
reverse of what you are reading it as, but that doesn't make a
difference in this context.

As I see it, we have two options open to us:

- - Everyone introspect and figure out ways of doing things right so
that more women feel comfortable in participating in the LUG.  Perhaps
people who have had prior experience with gender issues can come forth
and give inputs, or be blunt and specific when some line is crossed.
We hope that eventually the lists and the group become more sensitive.

- - People who care about the predominance of men in the LUG take steps
to actively encourage the participation of women.

Of course, there's a third option too:

- - Do nothing and let things continue their way.

At the moment we're all sitting around agreeing that an issue has been
identified, but none of us is actually doing anything to suggest steps
that can be taken to resolve it.  Do such steps exist?  If they do,
who can enumerate them?  Once potential solutions are known, can we
work together to implement them?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions.  However, since
you have brought the issue up, I'd invoke the ILUG-Delhi rule and have
you automagically volunteered for going deeper into it.  I personally
would be very happy to have the male dominance in ILUG-Delhi broken,
so if you have ideas please share them for my benefit at least.

Regards,

- -- Raju
- -- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Nitin Chandra



 
 Fair enough.  The attempt at humour was supposed to
 achieve the
 reverse of what you are reading it as, but that
 doesn't make a
 difference in this context.
 
 As I see it, we have two options open to us:
 
 - - Everyone introspect and figure out ways of doing
 things right so
 that more women feel comfortable in participating in
 the LUG.  Perhaps
 people who have had prior experience with gender
 issues can come forth
 and give inputs, or be blunt and specific when some
 line is crossed.
 We hope that eventually the lists and the group
 become more sensitive.
 
 - - People who care about the predominance of men in
 the LUG take steps
 to actively encourage the participation of women.
 
 Of course, there's a third option too:
 
 - - Do nothing and let things continue their way.
 
 At the moment we're all sitting around agreeing that
 an issue has been
 identified, but none of us is actually doing
 anything to suggest steps
 that can be taken to resolve it.  Do such steps
 exist?  If they do,
 who can enumerate them?  Once potential solutions
 are known, can we
 work together to implement them?
 
 I don't know the answers to any of these questions. 
 However, since
 you have brought the issue up, I'd invoke the
 ILUG-Delhi rule and have
 you automagically volunteered for going deeper into
 it.  I personally
 would be very happy to have the male dominance in
 ILUG-Delhi broken,
 so if you have ideas please share them for my
 benefit at least.
 
 Regards,
 
 - -- Raju
--if i may add the fourth option

where by women can accept men as they are and STILL
come forward and make a difference rather than be in
the stand and comment. So women can crib OR make a
difference to LUG as a whole group + Linux.
My request and invitation is for women to accept men
as they are and step forward and play in then LUG
field and make an enormous difference.

Reg
Nitin Chandra Srivastava

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Sandip Bhattacharya
On Monday, 22 Aug 2005 1:19 pm, hassath wrote:
 On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:25, Pankaj kaushal wrote:
  I am neither discomforted by the discussion nor am I complacent, merely
  un-interested in discussions without a result.

 If there is a result-less discussion, maybe you could take more
 responsibility for it- you too are part of this list. What a typically
 privileged attitude - Oh, nothing comes out of these discussions! If
 you saw it as being in your interest, if you took ownership, you would
 try and get things to change.


Hassath, let us discuss this without getting bitter. I understand the 
frustation, and I do agree with AMS that atmosphere in the LUG meets is 
something that will make women (or children or any elderly people) 
uncomfortable.

Like someone recently said - nobody tries to make the environment 
women-unfriendly.  However, while I agree that the atmosphere is not right, I 
also have to bring it to your attention that this is a chicken and egg 
situation too. Because there are no girls or women or children generally at 
these meets, people have conversation in a manner which would otherwise not 
be acceptable in front of other sections of the population.

We have had this discussion before, yes, but the reasons why they were 
inconclusive was because it was discussed primarily between us males only.

Hassath, there are certain aspects of male conversation which we know are not 
appropriate if women are around (jokes about pr0n, for example). However, 
there are many other aspects which only a woman can sensitize us about. As 
you pointed out, you found an official announcement in bad taste. There would 
be some parts of that which are immediately understandable as being 
inappropriate. However, there might be other parts of the conversation which 
might not be so clear to others. We need help on this from women like you. 
Please help us clean out all our official announcements on Freedel, for 
instance.

Just as we need people with experience in dealing with physically challenged 
persons, to sensitize us about building accessible technology, we need help 
from women professionals like you who deal with such issues everyday, to help 
make ILUGD more friendly to all sections of the population. (Uh. huh. Bad 
analogy - might be taken otherwise by certain people. I am not trying to 
make any insinuation about women being challenged in anyway. ... Sigh. See 
how difficult being politically correct all the time is?)

- Sandip

-- 
Sandip Bhattacharya   |[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. |  http://www.puroga.com
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Nitin Chandra wrote:

--if i may add the fourth option

where by women can accept men as they are and STILL
come forward and make a difference rather than be in
the stand and comment. 


Well thats the standard arguement  accept us as we are .
So one is not expected to change for the better.


men are abusive so let them be - accept them as they are
men can harass women - accept that
men can use crude and filthy language - accept that.
Men are wife / women beaters - so let them be - accept them as that

I wonder if you will take any form of filthy language thats aimed at 
your being, your sex, your caste your height or whatever. Esp if it 
comes from someone more powerful that you. Or if its been systemaic over 
the ages - centuries.

So patriarchy is okay - just as much as facism is okay. - **Really*

***Come on** - just go through the entire discussion and try and see 
whats been said.

Make an attempt to understand, to see the issues involved.

and don't bellitle the one woman who has come forward to try and make a 
difference by saying she is standing and commenting - she's done 
enough to raise the issues. She's got a lot more guts than many men who 
are finding it difficult to understand that they may be doing something 
wrong, or are being insensitive and crude.

Nitin Chandra wrote:

So women can crib OR make a
difference to LUG as a whole group + Linux.

Who's cribbing - its a discussion and some points are being raised to 
try and make a difference to the LUG - a big difference.

My request and invitation is for women to accept men
as they are

and step forward and play in then LUG
field and make an enormous difference.???
  

 
I thought it was some of the men who were asking why aren't there more 
women on this list. Maybe women don't need this list at all or they 
don't need to interact with the men that this list is showing up ???



May be you can make an enormous difference by understanding the issues 
that face women in  read and write educated indian society.

Reg
Nitin Chandra Srivastava

  


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Pankaj kaushal
hassath wrote:
 On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:25, Pankaj kaushal wrote:
 If there is a result-less discussion, maybe you could take more
 responsibility for it- you too are part of this list. What a typically
 privileged attitude - Oh, nothing comes out of these discussions! If
 you saw it as being in your interest, if you took ownership, you would
 try and get things to change.

I am trying to stay out of it, but you are insistent on having a flame
war by taking cheap dig's at me. The statement which I made and so
rakishly used by you in your every post, was a result of these very
fruitless discussions. However, I am trying to be in this discussion
because I hope that this time it will not be result less. You are not
helping matters tremendously.

 As for not dwelling into the nature of society at large- i am sorry, i
 am incapable of seeing things in isolation and closing my eyes to larger
 connections- and i do not see it as a failing.

Neither am I a student of sociology or culture, and nor do I have the
necessary knowledge to dwell at this point of time thus, I will not
dwell into the nature of society at large. It is a big question and many
have spent their entire life on the quest which still remains unsolved
and mysterious at best. It does interest me, but to publicly regurgitate
a popular notion or quote focualt is not my style. My understanding of
gender inequality, marginalized communities, religion and sexuality is
not in accord with that which is popular or that which is taught and
this is not the right forum to discuss it. If you are interested we can
take it off-list.

And by dwelling into the nature of society at large in public, all we
are doing at the moment is sitting around agreeing that there is an
issue but none of us is actually suggesting anything that can be *done*
to resolve it. I suggested one step only to be a target of mudslinging.

P.
-- 
Alas, even today there's little worth thinking and saying that does
not grievously wound the state, the gods, and common decency.
-Goethe


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Sandip Bhattacharya
On Monday, 22 Aug 2005 2:32 pm, Raj Mathur wrote:

 Fair enough.  The attempt at humour was supposed to achieve the
 reverse of what you are reading it as, but that doesn't make a
 difference in this context.

Actually Raj, now that I have re-read it, I agree with Hassath that it is 
*potentially* offensive to women. While it might be perceived as humorous to 
men, it appears condescending to women, and hence seems insulting.

Since the blog is the official face of Freedel till the main site comes up, I 
am making some changes as Hassath has pointed out, *with* an appropriate 
notice that this is not the original post.

I would like everybody on this list to keep pointing out whenever our 
communication to the world or actions is not appropriate to any particular 
section of the society - be it women, children or physically challenged.

This also brings up an idea that I had some time back. How about asking people 
working in the field of FLOSS software for the physically challenged, to have 
their own section in the talks? Only FLOSS software please, because this is a 
FLOSS event.

And how about ensuring that all facilities at the event are 
physically-challenged friendly?

- Sandip

-- 
Sandip Bhattacharya  *Puroga Technologies   * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Work: http://www.puroga.com  *   Home/Blog: http://www.sandipb.net/blog

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:

Hassath, let us discuss this without getting bitter. I understand the 
frustation, and I do agree with AMS that atmosphere in the LUG meets is 
something that will make women (or children or any elderly people) 
uncomfortable.

  

Sandip this bitterness - which you see - is not being able to get an 
important issue across. Check out the number of typical male mails 
coming on this discussion - and thats whats happening to women day and 
night for all their lives. Instead of asking Hassath not to be bitter 
lets try and not let it get to that situation.

Like someone recently said - nobody tries to make the environment 
women-unfriendly.  

But is there an attempt to consider that what exists might anyway be 
unfriendly.

See I don;t want to pitch in - as part of the list I too am to blame for 
not have said / done anything and lain silent - complacent. Its some 
woman activists job. Sorry

However, while I agree that the atmosphere is not right, I 
also have to bring it to your attention that this is a chicken and egg 
situation too. Because there are no girls or women or children generally at 
these meets, people have conversation in a manner which would otherwise not 
be acceptable in front of other sections of the population.

  

The list does have some women and maybe some men who do find the 
language of the mail list insensitive as well. There is an audience that 
reads the mails and the stuff is that not enough - does it have to only 
physical presence of a certain class of people around that dictates 
behaviour. If so then many of us are leading multiple lives and many in 
hiding. Shouldn't our lives be open - like open source - clean but buggy 
and transparent but powerful.

We need help on this from women like you. 
Please help us clean out all our official announcements on Freedel, for 
instance.

  

Why is the onus on women to help clean up - if we understand the issue 
is it not up to us to make the effort.

Just as we need people with experience in dealing with physically challenged 
persons, to sensitize us about building accessible technology, we need help 
from women professionals like you who deal with such issues everyday, to help 
make ILUGD more friendly to all sections of the population. (Uh. huh. Bad 
analogy - might be taken otherwise by certain people. I am not trying to 
make any insinuation about women being challenged in anyway. ... Sigh. See 
how difficult being politically correct all the time is?)

  

Again why somebody with experience - why make someone else responsible 
for the clean up - is this clean up going to be restricted to the list - 
thats one way . But ... the sensitivity has to be across the board - if 
a man !!! is cleaned up because of rules in the ILUG thats one thing - 
that means he is free to be insensitive is other parts of his life. 
Ultimately it won't work.

The issues that concern this list are the same concerns that exist in 
larger society. Maybe a few cannot raise all the issues all the time. 
But all of us certainly can.

- Sandip

  

ram

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread hassath
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 15:40, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 

 
 
 Well thats the standard arguement  accept us as we are .
 So one is not expected to change for the better.
 
 
 men are abusive so let them be - accept them as they are
 men can harass women - accept that
 men can use crude and filthy language - accept that.
 Men are wife / women beaters - so let them be - accept them as that
 
 I wonder if you will take any form of filthy language thats aimed at 
 your being, your sex, your caste your height or whatever. Esp if it 
 comes from someone more powerful that you. Or if its been systemaic over 
 the ages - centuries.
 
 So patriarchy is okay - just as much as facism is okay. - **Really*
 
 ***Come on** - just go through the entire discussion and try and see 
 whats been said.
 
 Make an attempt to understand, to see the issues involved.

Thanks a lot, ram- i don't think i could have said it better. It just
proves- you don't have to be a woman to understand these issues.

  
 I thought it was some of the men who were asking why aren't there more 
 women on this list. Maybe women don't need this list at all or they 
 don't need to interact with the men that this list is showing up ???
 
I think this thread has just proved the point- perhaps I don't need to
spend my energy interacting with such men...

On the other hand, perhaps they need to hear more of the other
perspective...

Regards,
Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]


  Hassath


On the other hand, perhaps they need to hear more of the other
perspective...

Regards,
  


But it always helps to have the other around. In fact the more others 
the better it will get I hope

ram

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-22 02:48:17 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 where by women can accept men as they are and STILL come forward
 and make a difference rather than be in the stand and comment.

Which nicely removes all responsibility from you, and allows you to say,
with a straight face, that the problem is because women are unwilling to
accept men or come forward to make a difference. Right?

 So women can crib OR make a difference to LUG as a whole group + Linux.

Crib? *Crib*?

You call it cribbing when someone responds honestly to a direct question
about why women find it uncomfortable to participate in LUG activities?
You don't think the subject makes a difference to the LUG?

 My request and invitation is for women to accept men as they are
 and step forward and play in then LUG field and make an enormous
 difference.

Your request and invitation (more like a diktat, really) are out of
touch with reality, and offensive in the extreme. Women don't need to
accept anything to make a difference to Linux. If the LUG behaves
in a manner which women prefer to not get involved in, then they will
continue to not get involved in it.

And you, not they, would be responsible.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Sandip Bhattacharya
On Monday, 22 Aug 2005 3:56 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sandip this bitterness - which you see - is not being able to get an
 important issue across. Check out the number of typical male mails

As I said, I understand the reason behind the bitterness, but being bitter 
never helps in having a good discussion, and veers the conversation to a 
personal nature (take a look at some of the subsequent posts till now). That 
is all.


 Like someone recently said - nobody tries to make the environment
 women-unfriendly.

 But is there an attempt to consider that what exists might anyway be
 unfriendly.

Isnt this thread one?


 See I don;t want to pitch in - as part of the list I too am to blame for
 not have said / done anything and lain silent - complacent. Its some
 woman activists job. Sorry

The women dont have to be activists. Any women can help us. The more, the 
better. What one woman takes as an offense might seem harmless to other. The 
more the women, the more clear the directions will be.


 The list does have some women and maybe some men who do find the
 language of the mail list insensitive as well. 

Please keep pointing out. I am sure the majority of the people here want more 
sections of the population to participate, and would do anything to see it 
happens.

 There is an audience that 
 reads the mails and the stuff is that not enough - does it have to only
 physical presence of a certain class of people around that dictates
 behaviour. If so then many of us are leading multiple lives and many in
 hiding. Shouldn't our lives be open - like open source - clean but buggy
 and transparent but powerful.

Umm.


 We need help on this from women like you.
 Please help us clean out all our official announcements on Freedel, for
 instance.

 Why is the onus on women to help clean up - if we understand the issue
 is it not up to us to make the effort.

Please read my complete mail. I said that we will keep a close check to see 
the obvious issues sorted out, but there might be other issues that we might 
have missed.



 Again why somebody with experience - why make someone else responsible
 for the clean up - is this clean up going to be restricted to the list -
 thats one way . But ... the sensitivity has to be across the board - if
 a man !!! is cleaned up because of rules in the ILUG thats one thing -
 that means he is free to be insensitive is other parts of his life.
 Ultimately it won't work.


Notice, that in all my mails I have tried to send across the message that our 
public messages should be suitable to not just women, but children and 
physically challenged too. This is not all common sense. It also requires 
people who are actually in these situations, who have seen the needs of these 
sections, and felt the pain of these sections of the society. 

Without actualy being or helping a physically challenged person, can you 
always think of all their needs while designing a software, for instance?

This is not an ideal world, and lets not keep hoping that it will be so today 
or tomorrow just by our thinking to be so. There is no loss of face in asking 
for help - many organizations do.

- Sandip

-- 
Sandip Bhattacharya  *Puroga Technologies   * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Work: http://www.puroga.com  *   Home/Blog: http://www.sandipb.net/blog

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Nitin Chandra
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 
 
 Nitin Chandra wrote:
 
 --if i may add the fourth option
 
 where by women can accept men as they are and STILL
 come forward and make a difference rather than be
 in
 the stand and comment. 
 
 
 Well thats the standard arguement  accept us as we
 are .
 So one is not expected to change for the better.
 
 
 men are abusive so let them be - accept them as they
 are
 men can harass women - accept that
 men can use crude and filthy language - accept that.
 Men are wife / women beaters - so let them be -
 accept them as that

Well if the context of my statment is not understood
by some people who are challangedlet me state for
the general also...my statment was specific to the
discussion of women on  th list. Unfortunately
understood beyond that.

 
 I wonder if you will take any form of filthy
 language thats aimed at 
 your being, your sex, your caste your height or
 whatever. Esp if it 
 comes from someone more powerful that you. Or if its
 been systemaic over 
 the ages - centuries.

Been there experienced that.
Well I HAVE BEEN CATCALLED N WISTLED BY GROUP OF WOMEN
UNKNOWN TO ME , SO let not make those kind of
statments again. As from your statment i undestand
that women are so dammingly oppressed.THAT IS your
understanding...MY BELIEF IS WOMEN HAVE EQUAL RIGHT TO
WORK AND PARTY.

 
 So patriarchy is okay - just as much as facism is
 okay. - **Really*
 
 ***Come on** - just go through the entire discussion
 and try and see 
 whats been said.
 
 Make an attempt to understand, to see the issues
 involved.

Well this not the 1st time this topic has been raised
and then also i saw this discussion.
 
 and don't bellitle the one woman who has come
 forward to try and make a 
 difference by saying she is standing and
 commenting - she's done 
 enough to raise the issues. She's got a lot more
 guts than many men who 
 are finding it difficult to understand that they may
 be doing something 
 wrong, or are being insensitive and crude.

It is great that finally a women picked up an issue
which desperatly needs addressing as rightly said
...when 1 half of the people are not participating ,
how can there be an over all development.

 
 Nitin Chandra wrote:
 
 So women can crib OR make a
 difference to LUG as a whole group + Linux.
 
 Who's cribbing - its a discussion and some points
 are being raised to 
 try and make a difference to the LUG - a big
 difference.
 
 My request and invitation is for women to accept
 men
 as they are
 
 and step forward and play in then LUG
 field and make an enormous difference.???
   
 
  
 I thought it was some of the men who were asking why
 aren't there more 
 women on this list. Maybe women don't need this list
 at all or they 
 don't need to interact with the men that this list
 is showing up ???
 
Women just need to jump in and get the language
barrier resolved during the LUG meetings THAT is
what i am saying by making a difference. AND PLEASE
DONT BE UNDER AN IMPRESSION THAT MEN WILL NOT STAND BY
THE WOMEN WHEN THESE ISSUES ARE RAISED. BE THERE AT
THE MEETING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

 
 
 May be you can make an enormous difference by
 understanding the issues 
 that face women in  read and write educated indian
 society.

I see you deviated from the issue at hand ...of women
on the LUG.

Rather than contributing to the development of this
discussion for a permenant solution at hand u start
shredding other peoples comments. NOW this attitude is
keeping people away too. U dont understand some one's
statment request for clarification BEFORE u opine.

One does not know another individual to comment on
him.

 
Reg
Nitin Chandra Srivastava





Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread hassath
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 15:33, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
 On Monday, 22 Aug 2005 1:19 pm, hassath wrote:

 Hassath, let us discuss this without getting bitter. I understand the 
 frustation, and I do agree with AMS that atmosphere in the LUG meets is 
 something that will make women (or children or any elderly people) 
 uncomfortable.
 
 Like someone recently said - nobody tries to make the environment 
 women-unfriendly.  However, while I agree that the atmosphere is not right, I 
 also have to bring it to your attention that this is a chicken and egg 
 situation too. Because there are no girls or women or children generally at 
 these meets, people have conversation in a manner which would otherwise not 
 be acceptable in front of other sections of the population.
 
 We have had this discussion before, yes, but the reasons why they were 
 inconclusive was because it was discussed primarily between us males only.
 
 Hassath, there are certain aspects of male conversation which we know are not 
 appropriate if women are around (jokes about pr0n, for example). However, 
 there are many other aspects which only a woman can sensitize us about. As 
 you pointed out, you found an official announcement in bad taste. There would 
 be some parts of that which are immediately understandable as being 
 inappropriate. However, there might be other parts of the conversation which 
 might not be so clear to others. We need help on this from women like you. 
 Please help us clean out all our official announcements on Freedel, for 
 instance.
 
 Just as we need people with experience in dealing with physically challenged 
 persons, to sensitize us about building accessible technology, we need help 
 from women professionals like you who deal with such issues everyday, to help 
 make ILUGD more friendly to all sections of the population. (Uh. huh. Bad 
 analogy - might be taken otherwise by certain people. I am not trying to 
 make any insinuation about women being challenged in anyway. ... Sigh. See 
 how difficult being politically correct all the time is?)
 
 - Sandip

Yeah, if being gender sensitive is so difficult, and being patriarchal
is so easy, maybe I made a mistake in raising the issue. 
And Sandip, my bitterness is not the bitterness of this thread on this
mailing list- it is the bitterness of countless women being marginalised
and being subjected to patriarchy by the dominant sex over centuries in
various fields of life. 
Why can't you all help with empowerment- so that women don't feel
bitter? I repeat- I am not bitter against the few males who have helped
me learn what I do know, as far as FLOSS is concerned. If you can't take
a certain amount of bitterness from the marginalised, then maybe you
shouldn't be interacting with them. Have you noticed what has made me
bitter- even limiting it to the list? Please try to understand.

If bitterness becomes more of the issue,than the issue- then i really
don't know. Like i said, I brought up the issue cos i thought the list
was actually interested in changes. If it isn't, then sorry- I take my
hands off.

Regards,
Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Raj Mathur
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

 Ram == ramnarayan  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Ram [snip]
 
Ram Again why somebody with experience - why make someone else
Ram responsible for the clean up - is this clean up going to be
Ram restricted to the list - thats one way . But ... the
Ram sensitivity has to be across the board - if a man !!! is
Ram cleaned up because of rules in the ILUG thats one thing -
Ram that means he is free to be insensitive is other parts of his
Ram life. Ultimately it won't work.

Let's be very clear about what we're trying to achieve -- we're
talking about making ILUG-Delhi a place where women feel comfortable
interacting and participating.

I feel that it makes sense to bring in larger issues of social change
where they can have an impact on the issue at hand; however talking
about social change just because it is perceived as desirable and
bringing it into the ambit of this discussion is counter-productive --
that will quickly lead to complete chaos and we'll be no better of
than where we started, if not worse.

Ram The issues that concern this list are the same concerns that
Ram exist in larger society. Maybe a few cannot raise all the
Ram issues all the time. But all of us certainly can.

Let's discuss the larger social issues within the context of this
group.

Regards,

- -- Raju
- -- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
  It is the mind that moves
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
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j9CfE4aWeBMg0wT+ZBJGNec=
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
Just one quibble in isolation:

At 2005-08-22 15:33:13 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sigh. See how difficult being politically correct all the time is?

Sandeep, it's not about being politically correct. At all. Ever.

Everyone thinks political correctness is ridiculous, including women,
disabled people, and the other grateful recipients of its largesse.
PC is only about reducing legal liability by paying lip service to
sensitivity and pretending the problem has gone away.

Since you *are* trying to address the real problem, though, it's best
to avoid associating it with PC in any shape or form. (Yes, I know it
was an offhand comment on your part. I'm just trying to make a point.)

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-22 03:54:17 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Well I HAVE BEEN CATCALLED N WISTLED BY GROUP OF WOMEN UNKNOWN TO ME

OH MY GOD! THOSE SHAMELESS HUSSIES!

How *dare* they complain about oppression or exclusion?!

 Women just need to jump in and get the language barrier resolved
 during the LUG meetings

That's right. The problem is just a little language barrier that can
be solved by a little effort on the women's part, and then everything
will be just fine, and men don't have to deal with any of this nasty
responsibility stuff.

 AND PLEASE DONT BE UNDER AN IMPRESSION THAT MEN WILL NOT STAND BY THE
 WOMEN WHEN THESE ISSUES ARE RAISED.

The question isn't whether men will stand by them or not. The question
is whether any woman will want to stand by -- or indeed, within fifty
metres of -- anyone who expresses your sentiments.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread hassath
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 16:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 But it always helps to have the other around. In fact the more others 
 the better it will get I hope
 
 ram
 

Thanks Ram. At any rate, I am not interested in exchanging insults and
accusations.(It's not a woman's way, honestly ;-)) Those who are capable
of seeing the point, would have seen it already.So here's at least a
couple of points- as to what can be done:

1. I am pasting below a link- though not Indian in context, still
helpful. Even those of you who have seen it earlier, please try to go
through it again, especially in the context of the postings on this
thread.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

2. Secondly, if there is ever a discussion like this, all the men could
help by refraining from pointing out to the (lone) woman what is wrong
with her attitude / nature of her postings. Instead, it would help if
you pointed out to the people who are being obviously offensive that it
is not ok. I acknowledge and appreciate that a few of you have indeed
done that in this case, and I would like to thank them. And hope that
more of you do that. You see, help, appreciation, support- articulated
and expressed, would make the whole space more comfortable.

3. Perhaps I don't need to respond to the remark about women having to
accept men as they are- it has been responded to. But I just want to
make the point that it is the kind of remark that is enough to make a
woman want to withdraw from the list. No woman is obliged to accept any
man for what he is. (And vice versa). That remark illustrates the
attitude that men are god's gift to womankind. I am very sorry to
disillusion you, but they are most certainly NOT

4. Whenever the next meeting is scheduled, I will try to make it- if I
can arrange my schedule accordingly. Please do try and see if you know
any other women who would also come (I don't know of any at the moment).

I repeat, I did not enter this discussion in an accusatory tone. Nor am
I naive enough to believe that changes happen overnight, or that they
are complete when they do happen. But I am willing to try. All help from
anyone who thinks it's worthwhile- is welcome.

Regards,
Hassath
PS: I have had a mail addressed to me off-list, which is the kind of
thing I would say would put off less determined (stubborn?) women. But
here I am, nevertheless


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-22 Thread hassath
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 15:55, Sandip Bhattacharya wrote:
 On Monday, 22 Aug 2005 2:32 pm, Raj Mathur wrote:

 Actually Raj, now that I have re-read it, I agree with Hassath that it is 
 *potentially* offensive to women. While it might be perceived as humorous to 
 men, it appears condescending to women, and hence seems insulting.
 
 Since the blog is the official face of Freedel till the main site comes up, I 
 am making some changes as Hassath has pointed out, *with* an appropriate 
 notice that this is not the original post.
 
Thanks Sandip, for making the correction on Freedel.
And I would like to say that it was not potentially, but very
emphatically in-the-face offensive to women, and anybody else with the
sensibility.
And I am not labouring a point. If men can see and accept an objection
for what it is, without attempting to dilute it, it would help things
change for the better.

Regards,
Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d - Solution suggestions

2005-08-22 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-22 10:30:29 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 One thing which we can very clearly disregard is the possibility
 that the list is not interested.

Right.

Enough people are interested in solving the problem that rehashing the
argument will just give the disinclined more rope to waste everyone's
time with.

 Suggestions about what to do next: [...]

But first...

To any women on the list who have felt uncomfortable to post or attend
meetings: please try again. We can't promise that offensive behaviour
will never occur on the list, but it will not be tolerated in silence.

Your participation will go a long way towards making the list a better
place for everyone.

 Maybe a small section on avoiding certain phrases/jokes etc which
 may be offensive to a specific group on the list

I don't think it's a good idea to try and prescribe acceptable forms of
speech. The intention is to discourage disrespect and hostility, rather
than to encourage new ways for its expression. I think the guidelines
are OK (at most, they could use some clarification, perhaps). We just
need to be careful to avoid complicity-by-apathy.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-21 Thread Linux Lingam
[snip]
 
  But yes, I have been on this list for a few months, and have not
  heard anyone actually mention it as a loss- the fact that there
  are no 'active' women on the list.
 
 I don't know what you were expecting to see, but the subject does come
 up every now and then: people wonder why more women don't participate,
[snip]


i know the feeling. am on this very large and active mailing list,
with over 6,900 members. we discuss trends and tips on nail-polish. i
often lament why we don't have enough guys on the list. i often wonder
how many guys from the ilug-d mailing list would be interested to
actively participate and conduct talks and sessions at the monthly
meetings.

[nail-polish: 'tis like what a theme is to kde or gnome.
some even have alpha transparancy.
nail-polish remover: a little like running runlevel 3]


:-)
LL

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-21 Thread hassath
On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 22:45, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:
 At 2005-08-19 17:17:31 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  In all my experiences, I haven't encountered any sexism towards
  females in areas related to computing. Not even bad jokes.
 
 I wonder if that's because you (and other people) misjudge what might
 actually make women uncomfortable. I'm sure nobody at the ilugd meets
 would claim to be anti-women, but I've often felt that the prevailing
 atmosphere is likely to discourage women from ever visiting more than
 once.
 
 -- ams
 
Hi all,

I was not accessing mail over the weekend- hence the delay. Since there
are so many responses to respond to, I think I will just address each
one briefly. I haven't seen anything on the list guidelines to say this
is not appropriate, but if someone does feel so, they are welcome to
make the point.

Thanks Kishore, for the invitation to talk. I would have loved to take
it up, if i felt there was something concrete for me to talk about- but
like I said, I myself am exploring. But I do plan to be there at the
event- so hope to put faces to all these names then :-)

As for LL's nail-polish mail, I will not comment on-it's part of the
problem and an illustration of some men's unwillingness to take the
issue seriously...

AMS and Raj- point taken. I also agree that the list is not being
actively 'woman unfriendly'. Maybe women do need to show up at the
ILUG-D meetings and articulate specifically what attitudes/actions they
would like to see changes in. (Which means I myself will have to try and
make it- as far as my tight schedule allows it! :-))
Thank you AMS for mentioning that the prevailing
atmosphere is likely to discourage women from ever visiting more than
once. As far as I can see, if there are some people willing to
acknowledge and address the problem, there is hope for discussion and
introspection on it- hopefully leading to some attempts at resolution.

And Pankaj, this thread repeatedly will raise its ugly head because
this issue has not been resolved. I am not sorry that it causes
discomfort in your complacent world. 
that more women aren't using Linux because there is a gender issue
relating with technology as a whole. In my experiences males dominate
most computer related areas.
Welcome to the world- it's not just technology that there is a gender
issue to- it is indeed present in every aspect of our lives, and in
every corner of the world. A techie will say it's true for technology, a
businessman will say it's true for business...media, politics,
engineering, medicine- the gender issue is ever present. Please look
around and notice this.
Yes, males do dominate most computer related areas. And not just
computer related areas.It is a fact- but not one to be plainly accepted.
The question arises- why is it so? And to take it further, in any field,
why is it that the marginalised continue to stay marginalised? Is it
because they are genetically predisposed to being marginalised? Or
should one ask- What opportunities do they have- are they in any way
equal to the opportunities of the more privileged? At this moment, I am
talking only about gender, but my concerns extend to all marginalised
people, in all areas. It is convenient to say that this is how things
are- and be complacent about it. 
Like you yourself have said- there are men who don't care about
alternatives, and similarly, there are women like that. But it DOES NOT
mean that its a fact of nature that women are predominantly like that. A
baby girl is not born genetically un-inclined towards technology. A baby
boy is not born wanting to open up his toy car to see how it works.

Socialisation sees to it that women feel underconfident about
technology- except when they have gone ahead to specialise in it, and in
a few cases, when they have fought against such socialisation. Which is
all the more reason for human beings (I am not distinguishing between
men and women) who are more priviliged to try to empower those women.
And it is possible- I have mentioned my case in brief. The people who
have helped me learn what I know, and to do the tasks that I do- are all
male. It's just that they were actually interested in my learning. And
yet, in the process of my learning, and in my daily work, I continue to
face male chauvinism.

And this is not a male vs. female debate- I sincerely believe that a
healthy balance is good for all human beings- men or women. Whether it's
in the world, in the field of technology, or on a mailing list.

Regards,
Hassath


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread hassath


On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 08:16, Viksit Gaur wrote:
 Hullo,
 
 I was wondering, in reference to Raj's commment..
  
  Hi D00dz and D00d3tt3z,
  
 How many dood3tt3z are actually on this list? :)
 
 Cheers,
 Viksit
 
 
 --
 Viksit Gaur   

Take it further and ask- if there are few women, why is it so? And if
there are a substantial number, why they don't post. And the answer is
NOT that there are not enough bright women  interested in GNU/Linux.
This is too serious a question to be mentioned as an aside...

And yes, in case you are 'wondering', I am a woman, and obviously, I am
on this list :-)...

Hassath



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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Raj Mathur
 Hassath == hassath  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Hassath [snip]

Hassath Take it further and ask- if there are few women, why is
Hassath it so? And if there are a substantial number, why they
Hassath don't post. And the answer is NOT that there are not
Hassath enough bright women interested in GNU/Linux.  This is too
Hassath serious a question to be mentioned as an aside...

Hassath And yes, in case you are 'wondering', I am a woman, and
Hassath obviously, I am on this list :-)...

OK, so in your opinion why are there so few women?  Is it an innate
issue with perceived geekiness?  Or something specific to this list
(or User Group) that keeps them distant?  Or do we need to perform
some specific tasks or activities that would get more women
interested?

Regards,

-- Raju
-- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
  It is the mind that moves

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread hassath
On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 12:54, Raj Mathur wrote:

 
 OK, so in your opinion why are there so few women?  Is it an innate
 issue with perceived geekiness?  Or something specific to this list
 (or User Group) that keeps them distant?  Or do we need to perform
 some specific tasks or activities that would get more women
 interested?
 

Well, I can't claim to have the answers myself- I too am exploring, and
not accusing...And though I can't describe myself as a geek by any
stretch, but yes, I do think it is larger than being limited to this
specific list. (Lists like linuxchix and grlls-only also mention these
things- almost the reason for their existence...) But yes, I have been
on this list for a few months, and have not heard anyone actually
mention it as a loss- the fact that there are no 'active' women on the
list. So I want to know if you guys have ever at any point felt the need
for a gender equitable representation on the list? If yes, what steps
have you taken to find out the reasons- and try to make it convenient
and comfortable for women? 
I can say what makes me uncomfortable about posting on this list- 
(i) nobody seems to find anything wrong in a list like this (and is it
true for the LUG also? I have not been around long enough) running
without active women participants. Just the all-male comfort makes women
uncomfortable.

(ii) frankly, very often the language is initmidating and 'male'. Like i
said, I am not a geek, but yes, I am interested in GNU/Linux. 

I have no technical background, but I happen to be doing the System
Administration for my workplace- works entirely off GNU/Linux- small
network of 13 terminals- LTSP, Red Hat. We don't have a techie in
house- I have been doing the troubleshooting for sometime now, with
off-site help from our consultant. I have found no problems with his
language (and couple of other people I know who are into GNU/Linux).
Obviously, someone in my situation could use all the help and support
from a list like this, if only they felt comfortable posting...
With the ILUG-D list, it makes me feel like I have wandered into an old
boys' gang...

What is 'male' about the language and atmosphere?- I think you will have
to find out for yourselves- perhaps talking to 'geeky' women you know
who have been/are on the list?

On the other hand, if you all think its fine as it has been, it can
continue as it is

Regards,
Hassath 


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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Pankaj kaushal
hassath wrote:
 mention it as a loss- the fact that there are no 'active' women on the
 list. So I want to know if you guys have ever at any point felt the need
 for a gender equitable representation on the list? If yes, what steps
 have you taken to find out the reasons- and try to make it convenient
 and comfortable for women? 

I dont know, why again and again this thread raised its ugly head.

I believe that more women aren't using Linux because there is a gender
issue relating with technology as a whole. In my experiences males
dominate most computer related areas. Even the customers in the computer
markets are predominantly males. The proportion of females are
increasing but they are still male dominated. When I passed college
there were six female students in a class of fifty. However, there were
more female teachers than there were male. It makes you clear on certain
aspects of the IT industry.

In all my experiences, I haven't encountered any sexism towards females
in areas related to computing. Not even bad jokes. Of course, I may be
not at the right place or wrong place. On this list it may generate
respect and awe maybe a geek dream crush.

Women who are part of the masses that don't really know or care about
alternatives, in that they are similar to any guy who does not work with
technology. These are the many people don't know much about computer
systems. They want to check mail and not really care what they use to do
it. They really don't care much about alternatives.

My 16 year old cousin uses Windows not because it came with the computer
when it was bought the machine came with Linux. She uses windows because
all her friends use windows, because that is what was installed on their
computers. They all use hotmail and MSN to chat and go to the barista
and not cafe coffee day.

However, I used Knoppix to introduce my 8 year old cousin to Linux. She
figured out all the games and stuff in a matter of weeks. She uses it
for everything. She even figured out how to play music via xmms. I was
blown when I visited her the next week. I had to make 5 copies of
knoppix for her friends.

P.
-- 
Alas, even today there's little worth thinking and saying that does
not grievously wound the state, the gods, and common decency.
-Goethe

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Kishore Bhargava

 Take it further and ask- if there are few women, why is it so? And if
 there are a substantial number, why they don't post. And the answer is
 NOT that there are not enough bright women  interested in GNU/Linux.
 This is too serious a question to be mentioned as an aside...
 
 And yes, in case you are 'wondering', I am a woman, and obviously, I am
 on this list :-)...
 
 Hassath
 

Hi! Hassath,

Would you be willing to take this further not just on the list, but by
actually addressing a larger group during freedel?? Would be great. If
possible and you are in or around Delhi during the event, please let us
know. You can submit a talk extract to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thanks.

Cheers...Kishore
-- 
Bombeck's Rule of Medicine:
Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died.

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-19 17:17:31 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In all my experiences, I haven't encountered any sexism towards
 females in areas related to computing. Not even bad jokes.

I wonder if that's because you (and other people) misjudge what might
actually make women uncomfortable. I'm sure nobody at the ilugd meets
would claim to be anti-women, but I've often felt that the prevailing
atmosphere is likely to discourage women from ever visiting more than
once.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Prateek Khanna
Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:

 would claim to be anti-women, but I've often felt that the prevailing
 atmosphere is likely to discourage women from ever visiting more than

the prevailing atmosphere???

- prateek

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Viksit Gaur
Greetings,

Hmm.. a simple query seems to have stirred up a
hornets nest - and maybe for the better. But that
remains to be seen I guess. 

Apart from other issues which I think I'll probably
devote another email to..

--- Abhijit Menon-Sen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

the prevailing
 atmosphere is likely to discourage women from ever
 visiting more than
 once.

And which prevailing atmosphere is this? I don't
recall seeing any women come into meetings for quite
some time now - let alone check out the meetings, yet
not come back - but thats not saying they're not
interested. 

Hassath:

Do they just *assume* that the atmosphere is
unsuitable (for lack of a better word) to their being
there? I think this issue (possibly) is what should be
further addressed - and that instead of asking the
community what they've been doing to make the list or
meetings more equitable to gender proportions - we
should see why no one bothers to contribute/come over
to these meetings.

Cheers,
Viksit


--
Viksit Gaur   

me[at]viksit[dot]com
viksit[at]linux-delhi[dot]org
http://viksit.com

Just because you have a mind like a hammer doesn't mean you should treat 
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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
Hi.

At 2005-08-19 16:08:43 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 But yes, I have been on this list for a few months, and have not
 heard anyone actually mention it as a loss- the fact that there
 are no 'active' women on the list.

I don't know what you were expecting to see, but the subject does come
up every now and then: people wonder why more women don't participate,
say Hey, we should do something about that! and go back to whatever
they were doing, because nobody knows what to do.

 With the ILUG-D list, it makes me feel like I have wandered into an
 old boys' gang...

That's not going to change without some help.

Appropriate behaviour is not learned in a vacuum: it's learned through
repeated interaction and observation. Very few people actually *want*
to make women uncomfortable, but if they don't get any feedback about
what they're doing wrong, they won't know what to change.

That feedback doesn't have to come from women, of course; ideally, one
would get negative feedback from men too, but on a list like this, the
incentive to provide such feedback is really low, with the result that
a lot of stuff is accepted more or less by default. (Which, now that I
think about it, is probably what you meant when you were talking about
comfort and an old boy's club.)

Unfortunately, it's not realistic to expect that to change before you
participate. No amount of good intention can replace feedback. Since
you're here, and since you care enough to point out your discomfort,
perhaps you could go a step further and say something when you feel
uncomfortable?

What will probably happen is this:

1. Some people will grumble, but probably not very loudly.
2. Most people won't say anything, but will think a little
   more about what they post.
3. It'll become part of the list culture to post feedback.
   (Because people will see it happening.)
4. More and more people will see what's appropriate or not just
   by hanging around, without having to be told by anyone.

Easier said than done, though.

Pretty please?

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Abhijit Menon-Sen
At 2005-08-19 14:00:56 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  the prevailing atmosphere is likely to discourage women [...]
 
 And which prevailing atmosphere is this?

There's only one of 'em.

But it's really difficult to express in words just why I think it's
likely to discourage women (and, to be honest, does discourage me)
from participating. Let me think about it for a while.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hi

Just to bring in another perspective. I work for an NGO -that works with 
rural communities and natural resource governance. One our main concerns 
and areas of work are to involve women in the various aspects of life 
that have normally been male bastions. Governance mechanims, involvement 
in decision making, been able to be paid equal wages (yes there is 
discrimination in wages in rural society for sure). Being able to leave 
their homes and travel for education. And many other smaller 
initiatives. However, while we work on such issues as part of our work, 
we unfortunately do not have a big presence of women in the team and 
this makes it really difficult.

It is really difficult for men to a) undertand the issues that affect 
women - women's health, their impulses and needs and wants
b) to interact with them as easily as  women do.

Over the years we have worked with women with professional degrees, 
women from the Women's movement of the 70's and 80's and with community 
members. We have tried a build an environment which is sensitive to the 
interactions with women. Small things like language- not just the crude 
stuff only , even the use of man as all encompassing etc. Tried to make 
space for women to feel comfortable ! to express their opinion, to work 
and to help us grow.

Its been many years - more than a decacde that such efforts have been on 
and it is a tough battle. Because the ingrained patriarchy will take a 
lot of effort to be sensitized. Working with men and getting them to 
understand has been / and is our most difficult job. Its easy to pass on 
the onus to women - see there is 33 % reservation for women in the 
Panchayat so now they are liberated and everything is now okay. Well its 
not because that is a limted understanding of the years and methods of 
oppression.

So why is all this here: Because it takes a great deal of effort to make 
the enviroment conducive for women to want to interact.  The  so many 
reactions  and questions to Hassaths mails  are at one level okay as 
this is a discussion point - but is she going to be able to react to all 
- by herself.

I know from personal interaction with some of the ILUG members that not 
everybody drinks - but some of the mails / suggestions for ILUG meetings 
portray a different story. Its not that women don't drink and have fun - 
its that already often seemingly frustrated male stuff and I know that 
is not the case - the ILUG members are pretty decent. So its the image 
been sent out. and the consequence maybe to frigthen some people (men 
and women) off.

Kishore Bhargava's suugestion is a damn good one - for Hassath to come 
and share her views on these aspects. Maybe as an initiative Hassath 
could invite someone esle also along who is  well versed in women - men 
issues in the modern world.  Frankly if some really tough speaking women 
do come I am sure we will have quite a time dealing with the issues that 
do get raised.

regards
ram




hassath wrote:

On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 08:16, Viksit Gaur wrote:
  

Hullo,

I was wondering, in reference to Raj's commment..


Hi D00dz and D00d3tt3z,

  

How many dood3tt3z are actually on this list? :)

Cheers,
Viksit


--
Viksit Gaur   



Take it further and ask- if there are few women, why is it so? And if
there are a substantial number, why they don't post. And the answer is
NOT that there are not enough bright women  interested in GNU/Linux.
This is too serious a question to be mentioned as an aside...

And yes, in case you are 'wondering', I am a woman, and obviously, I am
on this list :-)...

Hassath



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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Viksit Gaur
Greetings,

ams said -
 
 Appropriate behaviour is not learned in a vacuum:
 it's learned through
 repeated interaction and observation. Very few
 people actually *want*
 to make women uncomfortable, but if they don't get
 any feedback about
 what they're doing wrong, they won't know what to
 change.
 

Well put - and how can this interaction be repeated
without anyone actually stepping forward to start
doing so in the first place?!

The statement about the Old Boy's Club - well, the
term doesn't have to be that. All this means is that a
group meets and does stuff which they would like to
do. And the only way this can change is, if there are
women who are regular enough with the meetings
(regular doesn't mean EVERY meet either - once in a
couple of months should be good enough) and list
interactions (even these needn't be that frequent). 

Cheers,
Viksit

--
Viksit Gaur   

me[at]viksit[dot]com
viksit[at]linux-delhi[dot]org
http://viksit.com

Just because you have a mind like a hammer doesn't mean you should treat 
everyone else like a nail - Terry Pratchett




Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 

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Re: [ilugd] D00d3tt3z on ILUG-d?

2005-08-19 Thread Raj Mathur
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

 ams == Abhijit Menon-Sen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

ams Hi.  At 2005-08-19 16:08:43 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ams wrote:
 But yes, I have been on this list for a few months, and have
 not heard anyone actually mention it as a loss- the fact that
 there are no 'active' women on the list.

ams I don't know what you were expecting to see, but the subject
ams does come up every now and then: people wonder why more women
ams don't participate, say Hey, we should do something about
ams that! and go back to whatever they were doing, because
ams nobody knows what to do.

 With the ILUG-D list, it makes me feel like I have wandered
 into an old boys' gang...

ams That's not going to change without some help.

ams Appropriate behaviour is not learned in a vacuum: it's
ams learned through repeated interaction and observation. Very
ams few people actually *want* to make women uncomfortable, but
ams if they don't get any feedback about what they're doing
ams wrong, they won't know what to change.

I agree with AMS up to a point here.  As I see it, all that the men
here can do is make sure that the list (and the Group) aren't
``woman-unfriendly''.  Which means, as I see it, no blatant sexism, no
off-colour stuff, no male-only assumptions.  This is something that
can be actively pursued, and to an extent is already part of the group
and the list.

OTOH, this is not the same as being ``woman-friendly''.  Frankly I
wouldn't even know where to start defining ``woman-friendly'' without
resorting to stereotypes and, eventually, sexism.  However, I think I
speak for most of the members when I say that we're willing to learn
and change through both interaction and express requests for making
things more comfortable for women.

Ball.  Court.  Your.

Regards,

- -- Raju
- -- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
  It is the mind that moves
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