Friends, This morning as I went through the thread, I was reminded of so many encounters with my ex employer (my uncle, also a Palia, who was the pioneer of Asbestos textiles in India). He would create so much confusion and give us all hell. At the end of it, the matter would become so clear, none of us would ever forget what we had learned at the time. Not that anyone here had created confusion, just reminded me of those days. Having said that, I think a lot of us could take a little more care, communication then becomes such a pleasure. Not that the interactions were not interesting. During an interaction between a French and an American, the American stated jokingly, Oh! the French are nothing but hot air. The French replied, "My friend, your automobile wheels are full of air too, how much more comfortable it makes your travel". Regards Yazdy.
On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes Ushadi > It is bad practice to do self praise, but I was going to write to Garg ji to > put this thread prominently on our group, for reasons more than one and it > also proves the statement I once made about our group "eForum of Indian > Taxonomic Research". Many things I learnt myself while trying to go to the > bottom of the fact that no one cites the name Kosteletzkya vitifolia, > whereas Kosteletzkya is a well recognised genus. Thanks ultimately I was > able to dig out the cause. > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 5:00 PM, ushadi Micromini > <microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Gurucharanji: if HS agrees with you this lesson would stop... >> >> I sincerely wish HS a great thanks , because his questions that now we all >> are so much more enriched about several points, not the least of which is of >> Hibiscus vs Kostlezyka .. >> >> not that I wish for any anger/outbursts , but questions, honest >> scientific questions are good... >> and your answers are so thorough that they will teach non botanists >> equally... >> >> thanks again... I will bookmark this thread for all the valuable data it >> contains... >> >> Usha di >> ======= >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Dear H S >>> I think that was the fault. They ignored single seed diagnosis, although >>> Kosteletzkya has strongly angular capsules: >>> Please read this on page 5 of this important thesis: >>> http://mars.gmu.edu:8080/bitstream/1920/6003/1/Alexander_2010_Thesis.pdf >>> "Plants in the genus Kosteletzkya resemble members of the genus Hibiscus >>> in floral >>> morphology but differ mainly in that each carpel contains a single seed >>> as opposed to >>> multiple seeds (Bayer and Kubitzki, 2003)." >>> Please read this also: >>> http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Hibiscus/sections.php >>> "Genus Kosteletzkya (section Pentaspermum) (image gallery) >>> approaches Fioria in possessing winged or less commonly angled fruits, and >>> approaches Malvavisceae in the cells of the fruit being single-seeded. It >>> consists of 17 species [5], mostly from tropical America, and to a lesser >>> extent, Africa, but also with species in the eastern USA, southern Europe, >>> south west Asia, and Malesia. However some species of Kosteletzkya fall into >>> the 8th group" >>> P S: since all species of Fioria are now merged back to Hibiscus, shows >>> that angled or winged fruit is not singly a distinguishing character of >>> Kosteletzkya, whereas the single seeded character is! >>> http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html >>> TRIBE IV. HIBISCEÆ [21], Endl. (excl. Malvaviscus). – Carpels as many as >>> the stigmas, 3–10 (usually 5), combined into a loculicidal few–many-seeded >>> (or rarely indehiscent) capsule; the dissepiments borne on the middle of the >>> valves. Column antheriferous for a great part of its length, naked and >>> 5-toothed at the apex. >>> >>> Cells of the ovary uniovulate. Involucel polyphyllous. >>> >>> KOSTELETZKYA. (Plate 132.) Capsule depressed, 5-celled, 5-seeded. >>> DECASCHISTIA, Wight & Arn. India [22]. >>> >>> Cells of the ovary 2–many ovulate. Involucel 3–polyphyllous. >>> >>> THESPESIA, Correa. Tropical Asia and Oceanica. >>> SERRÆA, Cav. (Senra, DC. [23]) Arabia and Egypt. >>> FUGOSIA [24], Juss. Tropical America and Africa.d >>> ABELMOSCHUS, Medik. Tropical Asia and America [25]. >>> HIBISCUS. (Plate 133.) Involucel polyphyllous. Calyx persistent, not >>> spathaceous. Capsule 5-celled, 5-valved; the cells few–many-seeded. >>> GOSSYPIUM, Linn. Tropical Asia and Africa [26]. >>> >>> Cells of the ovary 4–6 ovulate. Involucel minute, or none [27]. >>> >>> LAGUNARIA, Don. Norfolk Island [28]. >>> LAGUNEA [29], Cav. Tropical Asia and Africa. >>> >>> I think above information should convince you. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> Retired Associate Professor >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thank you Sirji for explaination.. >>>> >>>> >>>> but what about Dr. Almeida and N. Patil, explaination in paper about >>>> Kosteletzkya is restricted to angular capsule and not to single seed.. >>>> please if you can clear my doubt. >>>> regards. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Dinesh Valke <dinesh.va...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ... salutes Gurcharan ji for taking efforts to dig into papers and at >>>>> the reputed sites ... many thanks for the clear analysis. >>>>> Regards. >>>>> Dinesh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Giby Kuriakose >>>>> <giby.kuriak...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Very interesting and authentic explanation to the discussion. Thank >>>>>> you sir for the same. >>>>>> This would be the simplest of such kind of explanations that I ever >>>>>> come across. >>>>>> I think this would clears the doubt. I never knew that there were such >>>>>> a complicated matter behind this species. >>>>>> This is a wonderful learning as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Giby >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12 September 2011 16:31, Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let us understand some basics >>>>>>> Although the name of Hibiscus vitifolius is clearly mentioned in the >>>>>>> paper, it does not fulfill the basic requirement (for publications >>>>>>> after >>>>>>> 1955 as informed by Tanay). The basionym on which the combination is >>>>>>> based >>>>>>> should be written immediately after the combination suggested, which the >>>>>>> authors have not done. Pl. see the IPNI record: >>>>>>> http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do?id=991056-1 >>>>>>> Please note another interesting thing (although it should not >>>>>>> disqualify the combination). While making the combination authors should >>>>>>> have changed vitifolius to vitifolia, which unfortunately they have not >>>>>>> done. >>>>>>> Even if we think that combination is valid, let us understand that >>>>>>> this combination was made in 1996, and let us see how recent >>>>>>> publications >>>>>>> treat this taxon: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?langue=an&id=81495 >>>>>>> status 2009 >>>>>>> http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIVI >>>>>>> based on GRIN >>>>>>> status >>>>>>> 9/5/2011 >>>>>>> http://www.jstor.org/pss/4120636 >>>>>>> Kew Bull., >>>>>>> 2003 >>>>>>> http://www.eol.org/pages/584775/names >>>>>>> EOL Annual >>>>>>> Checklist >>>>>>> 2010 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.mozambiqueflora.com/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=139680 >>>>>>> 4/7/2011 >>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosofsrilanka/4348195473/ >>>>>>> Jan 2010 >>>>>>> http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do? >>>>>>> D7=0&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO|BRAND_KEY&N4=G1036|SIGMA&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC >>>>>>> 2011 >>>>>>> It would be interesting to know any recent publication which >>>>>>> recognises Kosteletzkya vitifolia as accepted name. >>>>>>> Interesting Hibiscus vitifolius is an African plant described in most >>>>>>> African and South American Floras. It is also true that genus >>>>>>> Kosteletzkya >>>>>>> is recognised as disctinct. The million dollar question is >>>>>>> if Kosteletzkya >>>>>>> vitifolia combination published in BNHS is not valid and species really >>>>>>> belongs to this genus Kostelzkya, why no author has published a valid >>>>>>> combination (or name) for this so common a plant, which many had >>>>>>> published >>>>>>> as Fioria vitifolia (now merged back into Hibiscus). >>>>>>> My simple conclusion is that perhaps Almeida and Patil were wrong in >>>>>>> assigning Hibiscus vitifolia L. to genus Kostelzkya. The genus is >>>>>>> separated >>>>>>> from Hibiscus in having single ovule (and seed) in each locule, whereas >>>>>>> Hibiscus vitifolius has 2-4 per locule as a rule. I think here lies the >>>>>>> answer. This leaves the validity of combination made by Almeida and >>>>>>> Patil >>>>>>> without much meaning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 2:59 PM, H S <hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Balkar ji for uploading the paper.... >>>>>>>> Hope atleast some member should understand the position of H. >>>>>>>> vitifolia >>>>>>>> for people who think that i am against The Plant List... pls note >>>>>>>> that, I never said dont follow The plant List... i said dont follow >>>>>>>> blindly, >>>>>>>> no doubt its a latest publication on Plant taxonomy of the World and >>>>>>>> its the >>>>>>>> best for the Nomenclature.. even i check the names on the site, but >>>>>>>> even i >>>>>>>> check them in literature to confirm it,,, but what i found is there >>>>>>>> are some >>>>>>>> mistakes in Indian plant,, or some species are not included which are >>>>>>>> published at state level.... >>>>>>>> I do not know that The Plant List and the Missouri Botanical Garden >>>>>>>> had any Indian taxonomist consultant... >>>>>>>> except few, I think the group is lacking in good Indian plant >>>>>>>> taxonomist, , who are there in the country but unfortunately not the >>>>>>>> Group >>>>>>>> for discussion... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Balkar Arya <balkara...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear all here is Paper >>>>>>>>> I have access to vol 1 to 100 of J of Bombay Natural History >>>>>>>>> society. >>>>>>>>> Pls feel free to ask any paper. I may take time top get them >>>>>>>>> converted in PDF format that the problem >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 10:21 PM, <microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear Dr. Sngh... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think you are right.. futile to react... but it needs to get on >>>>>>>>>> the permanent record about How useful the plant list is and so that >>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>> members all refer to it or at least not object to it... >>>>>>>>>> I think its a wonderful resource... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Re: futile to react.... even in my medical college class we had >>>>>>>>>> some students who got degrees but did not get any learning... in >>>>>>>>>> Gujarati >>>>>>>>>> its called 'Bhanya pana ganya nahi... ie got certificates but did >>>>>>>>>> not learn >>>>>>>>>> to deal in life... or some such thing... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> se la vi... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I realize how difficult the taxonomy task is... before the human >>>>>>>>>> tumors/cancers well well defined and classified in the 50s and 60s >>>>>>>>>> ... it >>>>>>>>>> must have been a very difficult job for the doctors who were treating >>>>>>>>>> them... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also, the need to standardize plant names was driven home when I >>>>>>>>>> started studying herbal medicine and then Ayurvedic medicine where >>>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>> sooo many vernacular names and sooo many conflicting names that its >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> funny... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> cheers is right.... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Goodnite.. >>>>>>>>>> Usha di >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ======= >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On , Gurcharan Singh <singh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > UshadiFor people like us who were struggling hard to prepare >>>>>>>>>> > lists of accepted names for decades now, the importance of GRIN, >>>>>>>>>> > The Plant >>>>>>>>>> > List and Sorting Plant Names is so dear. After the two volumes of >>>>>>>>>> > Index >>>>>>>>>> > Kewensis 1893 or so in which there were lists of accepted names and >>>>>>>>>> > synonyms, we used to always hunt for accepted names as subsequent >>>>>>>>>> > supplements every 5 years no distinction of of accepted names were >>>>>>>>>> > available >>>>>>>>>> > and we used to rely on regular upldates by Raizada, Rao, and some >>>>>>>>>> > me for >>>>>>>>>> > knowing recent name changes. It was only after nearly 100 years >>>>>>>>>> > that we had >>>>>>>>>> > GRIN as source of finding correct names (of mainly American >>>>>>>>>> > Plants) and now >>>>>>>>>> > that the Plant List is available (2010 onwards), listing all >>>>>>>>>> > published names >>>>>>>>>> > and recent accepted names, what more does the Botanical community >>>>>>>>>> > want. Only >>>>>>>>>> > those who have been doing hardcore research know the importance of >>>>>>>>>> > such >>>>>>>>>> > publications, and that too online. Agreed there are some issues >>>>>>>>>> > with >>>>>>>>>> > unresolved names, duplicity of names, but these constitute not >>>>>>>>>> > more than >>>>>>>>>> > 5-10 percent of names. I have been writting to the Managers of the >>>>>>>>>> > List >>>>>>>>>> > about errors and hope these would be solved soon, but to just >>>>>>>>>> > reject the >>>>>>>>>> > database, is something no serious researcher can think of. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > All of us can have our opinions on some things, but in the >>>>>>>>>> > matter of names in our database, we can only rely on what is the >>>>>>>>>> > latest by >>>>>>>>>> > consensus. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > After reading this concluding statement, I think it is futile to >>>>>>>>>> > react. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > "no problem sirji... i do not have any problem you calling >>>>>>>>>> > it Hibiscus vitifolia... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > but i willl follow what i feel is correct.." >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > We will continue to do whatever is good for the welfare of the >>>>>>>>>> > group. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Cheers Usha di >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > . >>>>>>>>>> > -- >>>>>>>>>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>> > Retired Associate Professor >>>>>>>>>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>>>>>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>>>>> > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>>>>>> > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Ushadi micromini >>>>>>>>>> > microminipho...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > NO NO NO, >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > we will not stop this thread... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > the issues are not resolved... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > First issue is "BLINDLY FOLLOWING THE PLANT LIST" >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > I looked in the history of THE PLANT LIST yesterday (for a >>>>>>>>>> > different >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > matter) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > what I found has earned my respect... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Its not a run by a flyby nite operation... nor is it a money >>>>>>>>>> > grabbing >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > operation... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Its a KEW and Missouri Botanical Garden joint venture... both >>>>>>>>>> > places >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > are run by and staffed by >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > very scientific .. very correct, very studious, and top of the >>>>>>>>>> > line >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > educated folks... both places... They even rate the names as >>>>>>>>>> > accepted >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > on basis of percentage acceptability, which I thought was very >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > honest.... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > MOST OF US including you mr. HS will do well to start following >>>>>>>>>> > the >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > PLANT list as a basis.... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > then... BASIC RESEARCH HAS its place... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > let the professors of BOTANY and Taxonomy figure out and >>>>>>>>>> > publish... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > SECOND ISSUE IS CAN I GET A PDF OF THIS PAPER: Kosteletzkya >>>>>>>>>> > vitifolia >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > (L.) M.R.Almeida & N.Patil J. Bombay Nat. Hist. Soc.93: 111 1996 >>>>>>>>>> > ... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > which is at the heart of this argument... cant find it on the >>>>>>>>>> > net... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Thanks Usha di >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > ========== >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > On Sep 9, 3:25 pm, H S hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > no problem sirji... i do not have any problem you calling it >>>>>>>>>> > > Hibiscus >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > vitifolia... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > but i willl follow what i feel is correct.. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > ok.. here we shall stop discussion about this post.. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > regards,, >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>> > > singh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > Dear H S >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > Please don't make comments like ......all the members are >>>>>>>>>> > > > just blindly >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > following the Plant list or other sites for identification >>>>>>>>>> > > > of plants. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > There are many well informed members on the group, who can >>>>>>>>>> > > > apply their >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > judgement in deciding what is correct. We have learnt to >>>>>>>>>> > > > respect each member >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > and expect you to follow the same for the sake of this >>>>>>>>>> > > > group. Just for your >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > information the following databases treat Hibiscus >>>>>>>>>> > > > vitifolius as the >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > accepted name: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIVI >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?19104 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2850698 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >http://www.eol.org/pages/584775/overview >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >http://www.jstor.org/pss/4120636 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >http://www.mozambiqueflora.com/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=139680 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?langue=an&id... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > These are just a few recent ones. Tanay gave you a valid >>>>>>>>>> > > > reason, but if you >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > still insist that others are wrong, perhaps we may not be >>>>>>>>>> > > > able to do any >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > thing. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > I request again, let us discuss, agree or disagree, but >>>>>>>>>> > > > don't treat >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > others as if they don't know any thing. Let us devote our >>>>>>>>>> > > > energies towards >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > helping members to know their plants. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > Retired Associate Professor >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:06 PM, H S hemsan...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> > > > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> Dear all, >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> Apologise if i have hurted anyones sentiments... ... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> and my knowledge is like a drop in a big jar of Dr. Singh >>>>>>>>>> > > >> and many others >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> on group. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> though i am proud that whatever i have learnt is in a right >>>>>>>>>> > > >> direction... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> i dont want to pick wrong things from The Plant List... for >>>>>>>>>> > > >> eg.. suppose >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> Kosteletzkya vitifolia name is unresolved because it doesnt >>>>>>>>>> > > >> have basionym in >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> original publication... that doesnt mean that Hibiscus >>>>>>>>>> > > >> vitifolia becames the >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> correct name... instead of making Kosteletzkya vitifolia >>>>>>>>>> > > >> valid by new >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> publication or in newly fresh combination with valid >>>>>>>>>> > > >> publication,,,, or it >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> has to put on discussion.... all the members are just >>>>>>>>>> > > >> blindly following the >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> Plant list or other sites for identification of plants... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> We should not forget the purpose of the group... >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> my intention is just contribute to group for bringing >>>>>>>>>> > > >> plants valid correct >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> name in front of the world.. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> regards, >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Tanay Bose >>>>>>>>>> > > >> tanaybos...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> This what ICBN Vienna Code 2006 Article 33.5 states >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> "33.5. For names published on or after 1 January 1953, >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> errors in the >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> citation of the basionym or replaced synonym, including >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> incorrect author >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> citation (Art. 46 >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> http://ibot.sav.sk/icbn/frameset/0050Ch4Sec3a046.htm>), >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> but not omissions (Art. >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> 33.4http://ibot.sav.sk/icbn/frameset/0037Ch4Sec2a033.htm#33.4.>), >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> do not preclude valid publication of a new combination, >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> new generic name >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> with a basionym, or nomen novum." >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> Tanay >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:01 AM, Tanay Bose >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> tanaybos...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Dear H.S Ji. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> I appreciate your knowledge in plant but I think your way >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> of >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> reciprocating >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> to senior colleagues of the group is not quite O.K for >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> me. In scientific >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> community >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> if you are vehemently protesting some ideas then you >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> should have a >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> strong evidence >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> for it. It not us who makes these nomenclatural changes >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> but the credit >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> goes to ICBN. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Kosteletzkya vitifolia (L.) M.R.Almeida & N.Patil J. >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Bombay Nat. Hist. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Soc. 93: 111 1996 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> is an unresolved name the reason for it is the absence of >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> basionym in >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> the publication. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Hence, the new nomenclatural change doesn't make any >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> effect and the old >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> name or the >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> basionym i.e. Hibiscus vitifolius L. stays as the the >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> legitimate name. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Kindly go through the link provided below. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2334897 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> As a moderator of the group I will request you to be >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> cordial with fellow >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> members of the >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> group. Though identification of plant is the main aim of >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> our group but >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> we always make sure >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> that the interaction within the group stays soothing and >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> peaceful. No >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> comments from >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> any members of the group should hurt the sentiments of >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> others. I will >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> request you to kindly >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> stick to the group norm and try to help help members >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> with identification in a bit cordial >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> manner. Your knowledge in taxonomy is an asset to the >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> group hence we >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> will always look >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> to get our knowledge refreshed from your ideas. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> forward >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Tanay >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 11:21 PM, H S hemsan...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> this plant doesnt comes under genus Hibiscus.... its >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> different. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> regards, >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> singh...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> Both GRIN and The Plant List treat Hibiscus vitifolius >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> L. as the >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> accepted name. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 10:25 AM, H S >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> hemsan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> i think Kosteletzkya vitifolia (L.) M.R.Almeida & >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> N.Patil >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> is correct name for this plant. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:03 PM, shrikant ingalhalikar >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> le...@rediffmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Involucral bracts are not forked and calyx is not >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> prickly/bristly. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Note the nodding corolla also. This is hence not H. >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> radiatus but >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Fioria vitifolia. Regards, Shrikant >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Sep 7, 12:11 pm, Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> singh...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > More shots of leaves and epicalyx should be >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > helpful. To me it does >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> not look >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > like H. radiatus. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Retired Associate Professor >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Delhi-110007 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Narendra Joshi >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> narend...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > Hibiscus radiatus >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > With Regards, >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > Narendra Joshi- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> - H.S. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> affections, - a mere >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> heart of stone >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> - H.S. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> - a mere heart >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> of stone >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> *Tanay Bose* >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Research Assistant & Teaching Assistant. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Department of Botany. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> University of British Columbia . >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> 3529-6270 University Blvd. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z4 (Canada) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> Phone: 778-323-4036 (Mobile) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> 604-822-2019 (Lab) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> 604-822-6089 (Fax) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> ta...@interchange.ubc.ca >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> *Webpages:* >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>http://www.botany.ubc.ca/people/mberbee.html >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>http://www.botany.ubc.ca/people/gradstud.html >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> *Tanay Bose* >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> Research Assistant & Teaching Assistant. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> Department of Botany. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> University of British Columbia . >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> 3529-6270 University Blvd. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z4 (Canada) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> Phone: 778-323-4036 (Mobile) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> 604-822-2019 (Lab) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> 604-822-6089 (Fax) >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> ta...@interchange.ubc.ca >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> *Webpages:* >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>http://www.botany.ubc.ca/people/mberbee.html >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>http://www.botany.ubc.ca/people/gradstud.html >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> - H.S. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - >>>>>>>>>> > > >> a mere heart of >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >> stone >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > -- >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > - H.S. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a >>>>>>>>>> > > mere heart of >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > > stone >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dr Balkar Singh >>>>>>>>> Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology >>>>>>>>> Arya P G College, Panipat >>>>>>>>> Haryana-132103 >>>>>>>>> 09416262964 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> - H.S. >>>>>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere >>>>>>>> heart of stone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> GIBY KURIAKOSE PhD >>>>>> Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE), >>>>>> Royal Enclave, >>>>>> Jakkur Post, Srirampura >>>>>> Bangalore- 560064 >>>>>> India >>>>>> Phone - +91 9448714856 (Mobile) >>>>>> visit my pictures @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/giby >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> - H.S. >>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart >>>> of stone >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > >
