Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-31 Thread Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY
When I used the "https" solution as suggested by Jan, my Mac opened the
website without the malware warning and I can read Swamiji's critique of
Rajpopat. The Gaṇakāṣṭādhyāyī software does not run on a Mac in any case.

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 3:43 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Aleksander,
> In that case I have to retract my recommendation to give the website and
> the software "a try, with all due caution".
> I can only add that my "due caution" consisted in keeping my Norton
> Antivirus alert and active, even when I went against its advice not to
> proceed with this site.
> Best wishes,
> Jan
>
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 at 02:21, Uskokov, Aleksandar <
> aleksandar.usko...@yale.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jan,
>>
>> The malware issue is real, my computer was infected with a Trojan by
>> installing the Gangakashtadyayi software.
>>
>> I trust it is a very useful program, but not before this issue is
>> resolved.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Aleksandar
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> --
>> *From:* INDOLOGY  on behalf of Jan
>> E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 7:48:44 PM
>> *To:* Robert Zydenbos 
>> *Cc:* Indology 
>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again
>>
>> Dear All,
>> Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya's reaction and refutation of
>> the unsubstantiated claim that an old puzzle is solved is of special
>> importance because it is backed up by all derivations  (prakriyā) generated
>> by his Ganakashtadhyayi software. The derivation of 'guruṇā' and
>> ‘mantraiḥ’, discussed by Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya, are not given in the
>> thesis, but at
>> https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/solving-grammars-greatest-puzzle
>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cam.ac.uk%2Fstories%2Fsolving-grammars-greatest-puzzle=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=0axjQe%2BbX3wuWWA1TVGMlRJJcLXkM%2BCswEsMzbDC5og%3D=0>
>> in the style of the In Panini We Trust thesis. Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya
>> shows how these forms can be conveniently derived and cites the rules
>> involved in their derivation following the traditional trimuni framework.
>> As for the "malware" warning: leaving out the underlying technical
>> aspects, the only problem with this website and the link is that it still
>> has an http:// address, if it is upgraded to an https:// address there
>> would be no problem and no "malware" warning from your Antivirus. Although
>> http:// addresses are indeed vulnerable for hacks etc. they are not
>> necessarily by themselves malware and in this case I think it would not be
>> entirely irresponsible to give it a try, with all due caution, and open the
>> site (and if that goes well, install the Ganakashtadhyayi software).
>> With best regards,
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 at 20:07, Robert Zydenbos <
>> zyden...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>>
>> Oh! My sincere apologies for that. (I didn't know about this before –
>> perhaps because I haven't used Windows computers in years.) I will have to
>> report this to the swami.
>>
>> RZ
>>
>>
>> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 15:43:
>>
>> When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:
>>
>> Malware Detected!
>> http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QR6MfncWSu3tXv556LDd1ltaDs%2BfC9XsMXRIn9r%2BPwQ%3D=0>
>>
>> Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site
>> you are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been
>> determined to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's
>> network. This web site has

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-31 Thread Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY
In fact, the upgrade from http:// to https:// should be done on the
Taralabalu website or through their provider.
https://rockcontent.com/blog/convert-http-to-https/
Best regards,
Jan



On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 at 02:31, Madhav Deshpande  wrote:

> The Gaṇakādhyāyī software works only on Windows computers. It does not
> work on Apple Macs. For this reason, I have not been able to use it. I used
> Jan's "https://; solution on my Mac, and it did open up the page where
> Swamiji responds to Rishi Rajpopat. I have saved a pdf version for my
> future reference. Best,
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 5:21 PM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY <
> indology@list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jan,
>>
>> The malware issue is real, my computer was infected with a Trojan by
>> installing the Gangakashtadyayi software.
>>
>> I trust it is a very useful program, but not before this issue is
>> resolved.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Aleksandar
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> --
>> *From:* INDOLOGY  on behalf of Jan
>> E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 7:48:44 PM
>> *To:* Robert Zydenbos 
>> *Cc:* Indology 
>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again
>>
>> Dear All,
>> Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya's reaction and refutation of
>> the unsubstantiated claim that an old puzzle is solved is of special
>> importance because it is backed up by all derivations  (prakriyā) generated
>> by his Ganakashtadhyayi software. The derivation of 'guruṇā' and
>> ‘mantraiḥ’, discussed by Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya, are not given in the
>> thesis, but at
>> https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/solving-grammars-greatest-puzzle
>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cam.ac.uk%2Fstories%2Fsolving-grammars-greatest-puzzle=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=0axjQe%2BbX3wuWWA1TVGMlRJJcLXkM%2BCswEsMzbDC5og%3D=0>
>> in the style of the In Panini We Trust thesis. Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya
>> shows how these forms can be conveniently derived and cites the rules
>> involved in their derivation following the traditional trimuni framework.
>> As for the "malware" warning: leaving out the underlying technical
>> aspects, the only problem with this website and the link is that it still
>> has an http:// address, if it is upgraded to an https:// address there
>> would be no problem and no "malware" warning from your Antivirus. Although
>> http:// addresses are indeed vulnerable for hacks etc. they are not
>> necessarily by themselves malware and in this case I think it would not be
>> entirely irresponsible to give it a try, with all due caution, and open the
>> site (and if that goes well, install the Ganakashtadhyayi software).
>> With best regards,
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 at 20:07, Robert Zydenbos <
>> zyden...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>>
>> Oh! My sincere apologies for that. (I didn't know about this before –
>> perhaps because I haven't used Windows computers in years.) I will have to
>> report this to the swami.
>>
>> RZ
>>
>>
>> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 15:43:
>>
>> When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:
>>
>> Malware Detected!
>> http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QR6MfncWSu3tXv556LDd1ltaDs%2BfC9XsMXRIn9r%2BPwQ%3D=0>
>>
>> Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site
>> you are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been
>> determined to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's
>> network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware.
>>
&g

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-31 Thread Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY
Dear Aleksander,
In that case I have to retract my recommendation to give the website and
the software "a try, with all due caution".
I can only add that my "due caution" consisted in keeping my Norton
Antivirus alert and active, even when I went against its advice not to
proceed with this site.
Best wishes,
Jan

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 at 02:21, Uskokov, Aleksandar <
aleksandar.usko...@yale.edu> wrote:

> Dear Jan,
>
> The malware issue is real, my computer was infected with a Trojan by
> installing the Gangakashtadyayi software.
>
> I trust it is a very useful program, but not before this issue is resolved.
>
> Best wishes
> Aleksandar
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> --
> *From:* INDOLOGY  on behalf of Jan
> E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY 
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 7:48:44 PM
> *To:* Robert Zydenbos 
> *Cc:* Indology 
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again
>
> Dear All,
> Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya's reaction and refutation of
> the unsubstantiated claim that an old puzzle is solved is of special
> importance because it is backed up by all derivations  (prakriyā) generated
> by his Ganakashtadhyayi software. The derivation of 'guruṇā' and
> ‘mantraiḥ’, discussed by Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya, are not given in the
> thesis, but at
> https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/solving-grammars-greatest-puzzle
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cam.ac.uk%2Fstories%2Fsolving-grammars-greatest-puzzle=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=0axjQe%2BbX3wuWWA1TVGMlRJJcLXkM%2BCswEsMzbDC5og%3D=0>
> in the style of the In Panini We Trust thesis. Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya
> shows how these forms can be conveniently derived and cites the rules
> involved in their derivation following the traditional trimuni framework.
> As for the "malware" warning: leaving out the underlying technical
> aspects, the only problem with this website and the link is that it still
> has an http:// address, if it is upgraded to an https:// address there
> would be no problem and no "malware" warning from your Antivirus. Although
> http:// addresses are indeed vulnerable for hacks etc. they are not
> necessarily by themselves malware and in this case I think it would not be
> entirely irresponsible to give it a try, with all due caution, and open the
> site (and if that goes well, install the Ganakashtadhyayi software).
> With best regards,
> Jan Houben
>
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 at 20:07, Robert Zydenbos <
> zyden...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
> Oh! My sincere apologies for that. (I didn't know about this before –
> perhaps because I haven't used Windows computers in years.) I will have to
> report this to the swami.
>
> RZ
>
>
> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 15:43:
>
> When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:
>
> Malware Detected!
> http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QR6MfncWSu3tXv556LDd1ltaDs%2BfC9XsMXRIn9r%2BPwQ%3D=0>
>
> Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site
> you are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been
> determined to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's
> network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware.
>
> If you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512)
> 475-9400 or h...@its.utexas.edu, or your departmental help desk, and
> provide the codes shown below.
>
> Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
> URL: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QR6MfncWSu3tXv556LDd1ltaDs%2BfC9XsMXRIn9r%2BPwQ%3D=0>
> Reason: MALWARE
> Threat Reason: Researchers or users identified possible threats.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> ___

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-31 Thread Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY
Thank you, Robert.

If it is useful for the technicians, Windows Defender reports the malware 
attached to the ganakastadhyayi software as “trickbotsc!bit,” whatever that is.

Hopefully all is good in my side, I switched to avast and seem to be virus free 
now.

Best wishes
Aleksandar

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: Robert Zydenbos 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2022 8:33:19 AM
To: Indology 
Cc: Patrick Olivelle ; Uskokov, Aleksandar 

Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

@Aleksandar:

I'm extremely sorry about the virus attack. This is a serious problem in India: 
I recall how once my computer returned from a computer repair shop – and then 
was infected beyond usability. Since then I have stopped using Windows and have 
been a happy user of Mac and Linux (my latest book was layouted using the Linux 
Mint distribution. It has excellent support for Indian scripts).

But that is of little help for those among us who, for whatever reason, are not 
free to choose their operating system – and for victims of current attacks.

@all:

I have reported the problem to Dr. Shivamurthy Shivacharya. He asked me the 
following question:

-
We have two websites:
1) math.taralabalu.in
hosting our news portal
and
2) 
www.taralabalu.org/panini<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taralabalu.org%2Fpanini=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7Cf2b824039c9d42fad51808daea6a6dc8%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638080040083556918%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=x86lMHrWrlRD2mzO5jE%2BQO5rbOmGrdOmB516XTWyQQM%3D=0>
hosting our Panini software

Are they getting malware warning in both the websites?
-

Meanwhile he has had his technicians investigate the site 
www.taralabalu.org/panini<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taralabalu.org%2Fpanini=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7Cf2b824039c9d42fad51808daea6a6dc8%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638080040083556918%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=x86lMHrWrlRD2mzO5jE%2BQO5rbOmGrdOmB516XTWyQQM%3D=0>
 with some two dozen anti-virus programs, and he says the site in itself is 
clean. They are looking into the other site. (Meanwhile I have forwarded 
Aleksandar's second message about viruses in the Pāṇini software to him.)

Robert


Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 16:36:
I got the malware by installing the Panini software mentioned in the note, 
spent a good part of the morning removing viruses and upgrading my antivirus 
protection.

Thereby I arrived at a novel interpretation of the matter at hand: With respect 
to prohibition (of malware), doing something is paramount -- vipratiṣedhe paraṁ 
kāryam.

Yours,
Aleksandar


___
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INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology


Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-31 Thread Robert Zydenbos
@Aleksandar:

I'm extremely sorry about the virus attack. This is a serious problem in
 India: I recall how once my computer returned from a computer repair 
shop – and then was infected beyond usability. Since then I have stopped
 using Windows and have been a happy user of Mac and Linux (my latest 
book was layouted using the Linux Mint distribution. It has excellent 
support for Indian scripts).

But that is of little help for those among us who, for whatever reason, 
are not free to choose their operating system – and for victims of 
current attacks.

@all:

I have reported the problem to Dr. Shivamurthy Shivacharya. He asked me 
the following question:

-
We have two websites: 
1) math.taralabalu.in
hosting our news portal
and
2) www.taralabalu.org/panini
hosting our Panini software 

Are they getting malware warning in both the websites?
-

Meanwhile he has had his technicians investigate the site 
www.taralabalu.org/panini with some two dozen anti-virus programs, and 
he says the site in itself is clean. They are looking into the other 
site. (Meanwhile I have forwarded Aleksandar's second message about 
viruses in the Pāṇini software to him.)

Robert


Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 16:36:

  

  


  I got the 
malware by installing the Panini software mentioned in
 the note, spent a good part of the morning removing viruses and 
upgrading my antivirus protection. 

  


  Thereby I 
arrived at a novel interpretation of the matter at hand:
 With respect to prohibition (of malware), doing something is paramount 
-- vipratiṣedhe paraṁ kāryam.  

  




Yours,

Aleksandar





___
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INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
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Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY
The Gaṇakādhyāyī software works only on Windows computers. It does not work
on Apple Macs. For this reason, I have not been able to use it. I used
Jan's "https://; solution on my Mac, and it did open up the page where
Swamiji responds to Rishi Rajpopat. I have saved a pdf version for my
future reference. Best,

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 5:21 PM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY <
indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Jan,
>
> The malware issue is real, my computer was infected with a Trojan by
> installing the Gangakashtadyayi software.
>
> I trust it is a very useful program, but not before this issue is resolved.
>
> Best wishes
> Aleksandar
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> --
> *From:* INDOLOGY  on behalf of Jan
> E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY 
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 7:48:44 PM
> *To:* Robert Zydenbos 
> *Cc:* Indology 
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again
>
> Dear All,
> Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya's reaction and refutation of
> the unsubstantiated claim that an old puzzle is solved is of special
> importance because it is backed up by all derivations  (prakriyā) generated
> by his Ganakashtadhyayi software. The derivation of 'guruṇā' and
> ‘mantraiḥ’, discussed by Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya, are not given in the
> thesis, but at
> https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/solving-grammars-greatest-puzzle
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cam.ac.uk%2Fstories%2Fsolving-grammars-greatest-puzzle=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=0axjQe%2BbX3wuWWA1TVGMlRJJcLXkM%2BCswEsMzbDC5og%3D=0>
> in the style of the In Panini We Trust thesis. Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya
> shows how these forms can be conveniently derived and cites the rules
> involved in their derivation following the traditional trimuni framework.
> As for the "malware" warning: leaving out the underlying technical
> aspects, the only problem with this website and the link is that it still
> has an http:// address, if it is upgraded to an https:// address there
> would be no problem and no "malware" warning from your Antivirus. Although
> http:// addresses are indeed vulnerable for hacks etc. they are not
> necessarily by themselves malware and in this case I think it would not be
> entirely irresponsible to give it a try, with all due caution, and open the
> site (and if that goes well, install the Ganakashtadhyayi software).
> With best regards,
> Jan Houben
>
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 at 20:07, Robert Zydenbos <
> zyden...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
> Oh! My sincere apologies for that. (I didn't know about this before –
> perhaps because I haven't used Windows computers in years.) I will have to
> report this to the swami.
>
> RZ
>
>
> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 15:43:
>
> When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:
>
> Malware Detected!
> http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QR6MfncWSu3tXv556LDd1ltaDs%2BfC9XsMXRIn9r%2BPwQ%3D=0>
>
> Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site
> you are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been
> determined to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's
> network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware.
>
> If you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512)
> 475-9400 or h...@its.utexas.edu, or your departmental help desk, and
> provide the codes shown below.
>
> Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
> URL: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJ

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY
Dear Jan,

The malware issue is real, my computer was infected with a Trojan by installing 
the Gangakashtadyayi software.

I trust it is a very useful program, but not before this issue is resolved.

Best wishes
Aleksandar

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: INDOLOGY  on behalf of Jan E.M. 
Houben via INDOLOGY 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 7:48:44 PM
To: Robert Zydenbos 
Cc: Indology 
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

Dear All,
Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya's reaction and refutation of the unsubstantiated 
claim that an old puzzle is solved is of special importance because it is 
backed up by all derivations  (prakriyā) generated by his Ganakashtadhyayi 
software. The derivation of 'guruṇā' and ‘mantraiḥ’, discussed by Dr 
Shivamurthy Shivacharya, are not given in the thesis, but at 
https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/solving-grammars-greatest-puzzle<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cam.ac.uk%2Fstories%2Fsolving-grammars-greatest-puzzle=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=0axjQe%2BbX3wuWWA1TVGMlRJJcLXkM%2BCswEsMzbDC5og%3D=0>
 in the style of the In Panini We Trust thesis. Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya 
shows how these forms can be conveniently derived and cites the rules involved 
in their derivation following the traditional trimuni framework.
As for the "malware" warning: leaving out the underlying technical aspects, the 
only problem with this website and the link is that it still has an http:// 
address, if it is upgraded to an https:// address there would be no problem and 
no "malware" warning from your Antivirus. Although http:// addresses are indeed 
vulnerable for hacks etc. they are not necessarily by themselves malware and in 
this case I think it would not be entirely irresponsible to give it a try, with 
all due caution, and open the site (and if that goes well, install the 
Ganakashtadhyayi software).
With best regards,
Jan Houben

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 at 20:07, Robert Zydenbos 
mailto:zyden...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de>> wrote:
Oh! My sincere apologies for that. (I didn't know about this before – perhaps 
because I haven't used Windows computers in years.) I will have to report this 
to the swami.

RZ


Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 15:43:
When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:

Malware Detected!
http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QR6MfncWSu3tXv556LDd1ltaDs%2BfC9XsMXRIn9r%2BPwQ%3D=0>

Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site you 
are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been determined to be 
a security threat to your computer or the organization's network. This web site 
has been associated with malware/spyware.

If you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512) 475-9400 
or h...@its.utexas.edu<mailto:h...@its.utexas.edu>, or your departmental help 
desk, and provide the codes shown below.

Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
URL: 
http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=QR6MfncWSu3tXv556LDd1ltaDs%2BfC9XsMXRIn9r%2BPwQ%3D=0>
Reason: MALWARE
Threat Reason: Researchers or users identified possible threats.

Patrick


___
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY@list.indology.info>
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C93a32ae3510a42b1576b08dae9ffa088%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079581388441448%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=JMSZnURi5ZBm2BwWqSrI%2FwxhEPJffu0eI1JJ4EMU1EE%3D=0>


--

Jan E.M. Houben

Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite

École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

S

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY
Dear All,
Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya's reaction and refutation of
the unsubstantiated claim that an old puzzle is solved is of special
importance because it is backed up by all derivations  (prakriyā) generated
by his Ganakashtadhyayi software. The derivation of 'guruṇā' and
‘mantraiḥ’, discussed by Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya, are not given in the
thesis, but at
https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/solving-grammars-greatest-puzzle in the style
of the In Panini We Trust thesis. Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharya shows how
these forms can be conveniently derived and cites the rules involved in
their derivation following the traditional trimuni framework.
As for the "malware" warning: leaving out the underlying technical aspects,
the only problem with this website and the link is that it still has an
http:// address, if it is upgraded to an https:// address there would be no
problem and no "malware" warning from your Antivirus. Although http://
addresses are indeed vulnerable for hacks etc. they are not necessarily by
themselves malware and in this case I think it would not be entirely
irresponsible to give it a try, with all due caution, and open the site
(and if that goes well, install the Ganakashtadhyayi software).
With best regards,
Jan Houben

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 at 20:07, Robert Zydenbos 
wrote:

> Oh! My sincere apologies for that. (I didn't know about this before –
> perhaps because I haven't used Windows computers in years.) I will have to
> report this to the swami.
>
> RZ
>
>
> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 15:43:
>
> When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:
>
> Malware Detected!
> http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
>
> Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site
> you are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been
> determined to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's
> network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware.
>
> If you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512)
> 475-9400 or h...@its.utexas.edu, or your departmental help desk, and
> provide the codes shown below.
>
> Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
> URL: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
> Reason: MALWARE
> Threat Reason: Researchers or users identified possible threats.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> ___
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120)

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu *

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
*

*https://www.classicalindia.info* 

LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction,
transmission

et transformations d'un savoir scientifique

___
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology


Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Robert Zydenbos
Oh! My sincere apologies for that. (I didn't
 know about this before – perhaps because I haven't used Windows 
computers in years.) I will have to report this to the swami.

RZ


Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY wrote on 29.12.22 15:43:

  



  When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this 
warning:

  
  

  

Malware Detected!

http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
Based
 on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site you 
are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been determined
 to be a security threat to your computer
 or the organization's network. This web site has been associated with 
malware/spyware.
If
 you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512) 
475-9400 or h...@its.utexas.edu, or your departmental help desk, and 
provide the codes shown below.



Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
URL: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
Reason: MALWARE
Threat Reason: Researchers or users identified possible threats.

  

  
  

  Patrick
  




___
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INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology


Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY
I was able to open the link on my phone without any issues and would
recommend this to others (but am getting the same error message when I try
to open the link on my laptop). The argument contains many links and
tables; otherwise I'd copy and paste it here. (But please email me if you'd
like screenshots.)

Tangentially, has anyone been able to download/access the
Gaṇakāṣṭādhyāyī software recently? I remember using it for my PhD, when
I felt it was extremely helpful.

Antonia

On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 at 18:36, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

> Thanks, Patrick. I am getting the same message.
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 6:43 AM Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <
> indology@list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:
>>
>> Malware Detected!
>> http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
>>
>> Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site
>> you are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been
>> determined to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's
>> network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware.
>>
>> If you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512)
>> 475-9400 or h...@its.utexas.edu, or your departmental help desk, and
>> provide the codes shown below.
>>
>> Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
>> URL: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
>> Reason: MALWARE
>> Threat Reason: Researchers or users identified possible threats.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2022, at 7:03 AM, Robert Zydenbos <
>> zyden...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> wrote:
>>
>> Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya Mahaswamiji (of Sri Taralabalu Mutt,
>> Sirigere, Karnataka) has requested me to forward the following link to the
>> list:
>>
>> Panini Sutras: Claim made by the Cambridge University researcher is
>> illogical, invalid and misleading:
>> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1s16ZJB7oX2xgv3-qo_rBP9kjb_7uSQSL3VfenUcxDAKHZ9m0LwyulfvfRPIAeAcFkdQmeSRb3HiwNU5VEk4xVhnB-rZHRRgzYDLV_YqO0L40Y7S9QvoWv-A-vShgyVyONxxOXstZ8LHDhhgBy8Ur_Rh88Nl_MNaxPkVZCMYhW7aSxufSVQ4gFRpd9v6Yhj4Xxgp5Eh0U52A8LZiej-vViOUuniw3p2B6JPlcDvl8oPSap1uscJEbDIEc_qEcx1hSPtV6gFtzSeI6XpA0VE9AZgXeaak1ftnMg08C_Tef6FAPz_fgwKaDyl0QrIItvBJim00t5zL6tUuUEMLzwlQVe8Tw5IcOLHiAWF75DXVN7UFcV-rzqEw93W8gJ8JT1oF2bvYBGVcjo2BUyTua707ZXyB6Ml0X0XjrTFfXhvwwRjvrMbs4yJDJyz4GJ8X-V5lecZjl00iUFANp7pNDNDN4g4tp5tMf9Kn_4AI94j-bdWK21j8Pc3FP3JQ9J1rQ8tU0I_J7ShTKzlFkpZ3o-MnXQRqHpj-tHz8YUwgdzgklEL1DnBAeS9SzB3xNmlJvvav2Ho58equKcXq4LVqz4ETt2xY1Ey36TFOW8DLjZzuEJSUReTeSJ9aMKRH9xqMENN9z/http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901
>> 
>>
>> Readers may know the swami as one of the main organizers of the 1997
>> World Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore and as the developer of the Pāṇinian
>> computer software Gaṇakaṣṭadhyāyī (
>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/11f5WXzzhcXpyExeUa1crlZcyLEjiLQzjvQUBeliqmt1Z3vGlK_h3GEhMFWTtOevvZl3I5ziNppyM87tHEG_eQG1R9sllMFjOwS_-0rgN3PLDV2vz_ed8jzMZR0b8urIUIG_JiSF__0UDrj4VMvfnpohd0FL_SPK_REyVBCv5ADdpFJNiYcfiqvPVNRTiXYJYsd5RVxZZC42qpZ3lQlqtew8B-afnsPGsihhXZBvGj7sCAJmfKi22z5hkMGAX0VppttxljQGf2N-NYRHQS7WZuqwQoqUvA3AdqEJLC7VGchUXtg3C1bUcH3m33lhgzfXy_cNoPHoEPfs4wWzoq78JQerUTOUgVG7dUcPcbNPxUourq7RtKyfE3TRwHJ-6gfsc-SER5daEm3SGK_lepZbGBfGnOmaW8uOlzk9kzW7G3__lUBuu_AcuPIiyYU78LKYTjuMUTKR110n2AXxzc7z3AuzoG3-wI_Xe7gm_ELRR1jZxm_p3x4CiZ4WwUkFRcUyB4LtHaRAqkFPBIrzjGrO5Jy9ZErGsphPrDdQ9ntjqozzwuJwIm2G1Qb5eDdW0xRPCR_xUc7zpUQ2Ct96wWvYcoVbZrXHq3_E92F0p_JFePqsiYZKRn-iAvlWwY5TXwEdE/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.taralabalu.org%2Fpanini%2F).
>> Using the software, the swami 

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY
Thanks, Patrick. I am getting the same message.

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 6:43 AM Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <
indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

> When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:
>
> Malware Detected!
> http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
>
> Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site
> you are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been
> determined to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's
> network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware.
>
> If you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512)
> 475-9400 or h...@its.utexas.edu, or your departmental help desk, and
> provide the codes shown below.
>
> Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
> URL: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
> Reason: MALWARE
> Threat Reason: Researchers or users identified possible threats.
>
> Patrick
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2022, at 7:03 AM, Robert Zydenbos 
> wrote:
>
> Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya Mahaswamiji (of Sri Taralabalu Mutt, Sirigere,
> Karnataka) has requested me to forward the following link to the list:
>
> Panini Sutras: Claim made by the Cambridge University researcher is
> illogical, invalid and misleading:
> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1s16ZJB7oX2xgv3-qo_rBP9kjb_7uSQSL3VfenUcxDAKHZ9m0LwyulfvfRPIAeAcFkdQmeSRb3HiwNU5VEk4xVhnB-rZHRRgzYDLV_YqO0L40Y7S9QvoWv-A-vShgyVyONxxOXstZ8LHDhhgBy8Ur_Rh88Nl_MNaxPkVZCMYhW7aSxufSVQ4gFRpd9v6Yhj4Xxgp5Eh0U52A8LZiej-vViOUuniw3p2B6JPlcDvl8oPSap1uscJEbDIEc_qEcx1hSPtV6gFtzSeI6XpA0VE9AZgXeaak1ftnMg08C_Tef6FAPz_fgwKaDyl0QrIItvBJim00t5zL6tUuUEMLzwlQVe8Tw5IcOLHiAWF75DXVN7UFcV-rzqEw93W8gJ8JT1oF2bvYBGVcjo2BUyTua707ZXyB6Ml0X0XjrTFfXhvwwRjvrMbs4yJDJyz4GJ8X-V5lecZjl00iUFANp7pNDNDN4g4tp5tMf9Kn_4AI94j-bdWK21j8Pc3FP3JQ9J1rQ8tU0I_J7ShTKzlFkpZ3o-MnXQRqHpj-tHz8YUwgdzgklEL1DnBAeS9SzB3xNmlJvvav2Ho58equKcXq4LVqz4ETt2xY1Ey36TFOW8DLjZzuEJSUReTeSJ9aMKRH9xqMENN9z/http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901
> 
>
> Readers may know the swami as one of the main organizers of the 1997 World
> Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore and as the developer of the Pāṇinian
> computer software Gaṇakaṣṭadhyāyī (
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/11f5WXzzhcXpyExeUa1crlZcyLEjiLQzjvQUBeliqmt1Z3vGlK_h3GEhMFWTtOevvZl3I5ziNppyM87tHEG_eQG1R9sllMFjOwS_-0rgN3PLDV2vz_ed8jzMZR0b8urIUIG_JiSF__0UDrj4VMvfnpohd0FL_SPK_REyVBCv5ADdpFJNiYcfiqvPVNRTiXYJYsd5RVxZZC42qpZ3lQlqtew8B-afnsPGsihhXZBvGj7sCAJmfKi22z5hkMGAX0VppttxljQGf2N-NYRHQS7WZuqwQoqUvA3AdqEJLC7VGchUXtg3C1bUcH3m33lhgzfXy_cNoPHoEPfs4wWzoq78JQerUTOUgVG7dUcPcbNPxUourq7RtKyfE3TRwHJ-6gfsc-SER5daEm3SGK_lepZbGBfGnOmaW8uOlzk9kzW7G3__lUBuu_AcuPIiyYU78LKYTjuMUTKR110n2AXxzc7z3AuzoG3-wI_Xe7gm_ELRR1jZxm_p3x4CiZ4WwUkFRcUyB4LtHaRAqkFPBIrzjGrO5Jy9ZErGsphPrDdQ9ntjqozzwuJwIm2G1Qb5eDdW0xRPCR_xUc7zpUQ2Ct96wWvYcoVbZrXHq3_E92F0p_JFePqsiYZKRn-iAvlWwY5TXwEdE/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.taralabalu.org%2Fpanini%2F).
> Using the software, the swami concludes: ‘There is no puzzle to crack in
> the Panini Sutra “1.4.2 - vipratiṣedhe param kāryam”.  This Sutra is well
> understood in the Indian tradition of grammarians. The researcher only is
> misinterpreting it to his convenience.   The traditional understanding of
> this Sutra is: “In the event of a conflict between two rules of equal
> strength, the rule that comes later in the grammar’s serial order wins”.
> But the researcher tries to reject this meaning.’
>
> Robert Zydenbos
>
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ಪ್ರೊ. ಡಾ. ರೊಬೆರ್ತ್ ಜೆಯ್ದೆನ್ಬೊಸ್
> Institute of Indology and Tibetology
> Department of Asian Studies
> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München (University 

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY
I got the malware by installing the Panini software mentioned in the note, 
spent a good part of the morning removing viruses and upgrading my antivirus 
protection.

Thereby I arrived at a novel interpretation of the matter at hand: With respect 
to prohibition (of malware), doing something is paramount -- vipratiṣedhe paraṁ 
kāryam.

Yours,
Aleksandar


Aleksandar Uskokov

Lector in Sanskrit

South Asian Studies Council, Yale University

203-432-1972 | aleksandar.usko...@yale.edu

"The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction"

   https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/

   
https://www.bloomsburycollections.com/book/the-philosophy-of-the-brahma-sutra-an-introduction/


Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov


From: INDOLOGY  on behalf of Patrick 
Olivelle via INDOLOGY 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 9:43 AM
To: Robert Zydenbos 
Cc: Indology 
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:

Malware Detected!
http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901

Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site you 
are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been determined to be 
a security threat to your computer or the organization's network. This web site 
has been associated with malware/spyware.

If you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512) 475-9400 
or h...@its.utexas.edu, or your departmental help desk, and provide the codes 
shown below.

Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
URL: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
Reason: MALWARE
Threat Reason: Researchers or users identified possible threats.

Patrick


On Dec 29, 2022, at 7:03 AM, Robert Zydenbos  
wrote:

Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya Mahaswamiji (of Sri Taralabalu Mutt, Sirigere, 
Karnataka) has requested me to forward the following link to the list:

Panini Sutras: Claim made by the Cambridge University researcher is illogical, 
invalid and misleading: 
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1s16ZJB7oX2xgv3-qo_rBP9kjb_7uSQSL3VfenUcxDAKHZ9m0LwyulfvfRPIAeAcFkdQmeSRb3HiwNU5VEk4xVhnB-rZHRRgzYDLV_YqO0L40Y7S9QvoWv-A-vShgyVyONxxOXstZ8LHDhhgBy8Ur_Rh88Nl_MNaxPkVZCMYhW7aSxufSVQ4gFRpd9v6Yhj4Xxgp5Eh0U52A8LZiej-vViOUuniw3p2B6JPlcDvl8oPSap1uscJEbDIEc_qEcx1hSPtV6gFtzSeI6XpA0VE9AZgXeaak1ftnMg08C_Tef6FAPz_fgwKaDyl0QrIItvBJim00t5zL6tUuUEMLzwlQVe8Tw5IcOLHiAWF75DXVN7UFcV-rzqEw93W8gJ8JT1oF2bvYBGVcjo2BUyTua707ZXyB6Ml0X0XjrTFfXhvwwRjvrMbs4yJDJyz4GJ8X-V5lecZjl00iUFANp7pNDNDN4g4tp5tMf9Kn_4AI94j-bdWK21j8Pc3FP3JQ9J1rQ8tU0I_J7ShTKzlFkpZ3o-MnXQRqHpj-tHz8YUwgdzgklEL1DnBAeS9SzB3xNmlJvvav2Ho58equKcXq4LVqz4ETt2xY1Ey36TFOW8DLjZzuEJSUReTeSJ9aMKRH9xqMENN9z/http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web.cisco.com%2F1s16ZJB7oX2xgv3-qo_rBP9kjb_7uSQSL3VfenUcxDAKHZ9m0LwyulfvfRPIAeAcFkdQmeSRb3HiwNU5VEk4xVhnB-rZHRRgzYDLV_YqO0L40Y7S9QvoWv-A-vShgyVyONxxOXstZ8LHDhhgBy8Ur_Rh88Nl_MNaxPkVZCMYhW7aSxufSVQ4gFRpd9v6Yhj4Xxgp5Eh0U52A8LZiej-vViOUuniw3p2B6JPlcDvl8oPSap1uscJEbDIEc_qEcx1hSPtV6gFtzSeI6XpA0VE9AZgXeaak1ftnMg08C_Tef6FAPz_fgwKaDyl0QrIItvBJim00t5zL6tUuUEMLzwlQVe8Tw5IcOLHiAWF75DXVN7UFcV-rzqEw93W8gJ8JT1oF2bvYBGVcjo2BUyTua707ZXyB6Ml0X0XjrTFfXhvwwRjvrMbs4yJDJyz4GJ8X-V5lecZjl00iUFANp7pNDNDN4g4tp5tMf9Kn_4AI94j-bdWK21j8Pc3FP3JQ9J1rQ8tU0I_J7ShTKzlFkpZ3o-MnXQRqHpj-tHz8YUwgdzgklEL1DnBAeS9SzB3xNmlJvvav2Ho58equKcXq4LVqz4ETt2xY1Ey36TFOW8DLjZzuEJSUReTeSJ9aMKRH9xqMENN9z%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fmath.taralabalu.in%252Fnews.php%253Ftp%253D1901=05%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C69480fb646d34a0ab06c08dae9ab0ddb%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638079218149016370%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=NdqFsgaBeHr%2FORoZsqzRJqOD%2ByYDtHmAPg2406ZZSIA%3D=0>

Readers may know the swami as one of the main organizers of the 1997 World 
Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore and as the developer of the Pāṇinian computer 
software Gaṇakaṣṭadhyāyī 
(https://secure-web.cisco.com/11f5WXzzhcXpyExeUa1crlZcyLEjiLQzjvQUBeliqmt1Z3vGlK_h3GEhMFWTtOevvZl3I5ziNppyM87tHEG_eQG1R9sllMFjOwS_-0rgN3PLDV2vz_ed8jzMZR0b8urIUIG_JiSF__0UDrj4VMvfnpohd0FL_SPK_REyVBCv5ADdpFJNiYcfiqvPVNRTiXYJYsd5RVxZZC42qpZ3lQlqtew8B-afnsPGsihhXZBvGj7sCAJmfKi22z5hkMGAX0VppttxljQGf2N-NYRHQS7WZuqwQoqUvA3AdqEJLC7VGchUXtg3C1bUcH3m33lhgzfXy_cNoPHoEPfs4wWzoq78JQerUTOUgVG7dUcPcbNPxUourq7RtKyfE3TRwHJ-6gfsc-SER5daEm3SGK_lepZbGBfGnOmaW8uOlzk9kzW7G3__lUBuu_AcuPIiyYU78LKYTjuMUTKR110n2AXxzc7z3AuzoG3-wI_Xe7gm_ELRR1jZxm_p3x4CiZ4WwUkFRcUyB4LtHaRAqkFPBIrzjGrO5Jy9ZErGsphPrDdQ9ntjqozzwuJwIm2G1Qb5eDdW0xRPCR_xUc7zpUQ2Ct96wWvYcoVbZrXHq3_E92F0p_JFePqsiYZKRn-iAvlWwY5TXwEdE/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.taralabalu.org%2Fpanini%2F<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web.cisco.com%2F11f5WXzzhcXpyExeUa1crlZcyLEjiLQzjvQUBeliqmt1Z3vGlK_h3GEhMFWTtOevvZl3I5ziNppyM87tH

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY
When accessing the first link in Robert’s message, I get this warning:

Malware Detected!
http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901

Based on The University of Texas at Austin access policies, the web site you 
are attempting to access has been blocked because it has been determined to be 
a security threat to your computer or the organization's network. This web site 
has been associated with malware/spyware.

If you have questions, please contact the UT Service Desk at +1 (512) 475-9400 
or h...@its.utexas.edu, or your departmental help desk, and provide the codes 
shown below.

Your IP: 2603:8080:2a00:6b6f:c1c3:2a87:7bff:d6ef
URL: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901
Reason: MALWARE
Threat Reason: Researchers or users identified possible threats.

Patrick


On Dec 29, 2022, at 7:03 AM, Robert Zydenbos  
wrote:

Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya Mahaswamiji (of Sri Taralabalu Mutt, Sirigere, 
Karnataka) has requested me to forward the following link to the list:

Panini Sutras: Claim made by the Cambridge University researcher is illogical, 
invalid and misleading: 
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1s16ZJB7oX2xgv3-qo_rBP9kjb_7uSQSL3VfenUcxDAKHZ9m0LwyulfvfRPIAeAcFkdQmeSRb3HiwNU5VEk4xVhnB-rZHRRgzYDLV_YqO0L40Y7S9QvoWv-A-vShgyVyONxxOXstZ8LHDhhgBy8Ur_Rh88Nl_MNaxPkVZCMYhW7aSxufSVQ4gFRpd9v6Yhj4Xxgp5Eh0U52A8LZiej-vViOUuniw3p2B6JPlcDvl8oPSap1uscJEbDIEc_qEcx1hSPtV6gFtzSeI6XpA0VE9AZgXeaak1ftnMg08C_Tef6FAPz_fgwKaDyl0QrIItvBJim00t5zL6tUuUEMLzwlQVe8Tw5IcOLHiAWF75DXVN7UFcV-rzqEw93W8gJ8JT1oF2bvYBGVcjo2BUyTua707ZXyB6Ml0X0XjrTFfXhvwwRjvrMbs4yJDJyz4GJ8X-V5lecZjl00iUFANp7pNDNDN4g4tp5tMf9Kn_4AI94j-bdWK21j8Pc3FP3JQ9J1rQ8tU0I_J7ShTKzlFkpZ3o-MnXQRqHpj-tHz8YUwgdzgklEL1DnBAeS9SzB3xNmlJvvav2Ho58equKcXq4LVqz4ETt2xY1Ey36TFOW8DLjZzuEJSUReTeSJ9aMKRH9xqMENN9z/http%3A%2F%2Fmath.taralabalu.in%2Fnews.php%3Ftp%3D1901

Readers may know the swami as one of the main organizers of the 1997 World 
Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore and as the developer of the Pāṇinian computer 
software Gaṇakaṣṭadhyāyī 
(https://secure-web.cisco.com/11f5WXzzhcXpyExeUa1crlZcyLEjiLQzjvQUBeliqmt1Z3vGlK_h3GEhMFWTtOevvZl3I5ziNppyM87tHEG_eQG1R9sllMFjOwS_-0rgN3PLDV2vz_ed8jzMZR0b8urIUIG_JiSF__0UDrj4VMvfnpohd0FL_SPK_REyVBCv5ADdpFJNiYcfiqvPVNRTiXYJYsd5RVxZZC42qpZ3lQlqtew8B-afnsPGsihhXZBvGj7sCAJmfKi22z5hkMGAX0VppttxljQGf2N-NYRHQS7WZuqwQoqUvA3AdqEJLC7VGchUXtg3C1bUcH3m33lhgzfXy_cNoPHoEPfs4wWzoq78JQerUTOUgVG7dUcPcbNPxUourq7RtKyfE3TRwHJ-6gfsc-SER5daEm3SGK_lepZbGBfGnOmaW8uOlzk9kzW7G3__lUBuu_AcuPIiyYU78LKYTjuMUTKR110n2AXxzc7z3AuzoG3-wI_Xe7gm_ELRR1jZxm_p3x4CiZ4WwUkFRcUyB4LtHaRAqkFPBIrzjGrO5Jy9ZErGsphPrDdQ9ntjqozzwuJwIm2G1Qb5eDdW0xRPCR_xUc7zpUQ2Ct96wWvYcoVbZrXHq3_E92F0p_JFePqsiYZKRn-iAvlWwY5TXwEdE/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.taralabalu.org%2Fpanini%2F).
 Using the software, the swami concludes: ‘There is no puzzle to crack in the 
Panini Sutra “1.4.2 - vipratiṣedhe param kāryam”.  This Sutra is well 
understood in the Indian tradition of grammarians. The researcher only is 
misinterpreting it to his convenience.   The traditional understanding of this 
Sutra is: “In the event of a conflict between two rules of equal strength, the 
rule that comes later in the grammar’s serial order wins”.  But the researcher 
tries to reject this meaning.’

Robert Zydenbos



--
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ಪ್ರೊ. ಡಾ. ರೊಬೆರ್ತ್ ಜೆಯ್ದೆನ್ಬೊಸ್
Institute of Indology and Tibetology
Department of Asian Studies
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München (University of Munich – LMU)
Germany


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Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-29 Thread Robert Zydenbos
Dr Shivamurthy Shivacharaya Mahaswamiji (of 
Sri Taralabalu Mutt, Sirigere, Karnataka) has requested me to forward 
the following link to the list:

Panini Sutras: Claim made by the Cambridge University researcher is 
illogical, invalid and misleading: http://math.taralabalu.in/news.php?tp=1901

Readers may know the swami as one of the main organizers of the 1997 
World Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore and as the developer of the 
Pāṇinian computer software Gaṇakaṣṭadhyāyī (https://www.taralabalu.org/panini/).
 Using the software, the swami concludes: ‘There is no puzzle to crack 
in the Panini Sutra “1.4.2 - vipratiṣedhe param kāryam”.  This Sutra is
 well understood in the Indian tradition of grammarians. The researcher 
only is misinterpreting it to his convenience.   The traditional 
understanding of this Sutra is: “In the event of a conflict between two 
rules of equal strength, the rule that comes later in the grammar’s 
serial order wins”.  But the researcher tries to reject this meaning.’

Robert Zydenbos



-- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ಪ್ರೊ. 
ಡಾ. ರೊಬೆರ್ತ್ ಜೆಯ್ದೆನ್ಬೊಸ್

 Institute of Indology and Tibetology

 Department of Asian Studies

 Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München (University of Munich – LMU)

 Germany






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Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-20 Thread Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY
Dear Madhav, John, and others interested in this thread.

Below is my ten-cent’s worth of comment. I hope this helps turning the 
discussion to a more balanced assessment of Rajpopat’s proposal. For some 
reason, my mail application lets me insert my comment only at the end of this 
message thread.

All best wishes,

Hans Henrich



On 20 Dec2022, at 08:37, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY 
mailto:indology@list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear John,

Thanks for a balanced commentary. I think there is too much of मया जितम्, 
rather than a calm presentation and evaluation of alternative proposals. The 
first historical question is to reccognize that it is Patañjali who extends the 
scope of 1.4.2 beyond the ekasaṃjñādhikāra [i.e. the scope defined by 1.4.1], 
and where this extension creates problems, Patañjali interprets the word para 
to mean iṣṭa "desired," allowing a so called pūrvavipratiṣedha. As a result, in 
Patañjali's proposal, the choice between paraṃ kāryaṃ and pūrvaṃ kāryam is 
determined simply by looking at what is iṣṭa "desirable" in a given derivation. 
OK. This is what Patañjali's extension of 1.4.2 has given us. Now Rishi accepts 
Patañjali's extension of 1.4.2 to the whole of the Aṣṭādhyāyī, but not his 
understanding that the rule refers to a resolution of rule conflict by 
referring to the order of the rules. Then he takes the word para to refer to 
the order of morphemes in the derivation [left versus right context], and not 
the order of rules in the Aṣṭādhyāyī. This makes the rule 1.4.2 rather 
irrelevant for the entire ekasaṃjñādhikāra, where the order of morphemes in the 
derivation is not an issue. One then has to find new innovative solutions for 
the choice of saṃjñā in this ekasaṃjñādhikāra, while the very placement of 
1.4.2 coming after 1.4.1 becomes rather meaningless. To account for Rishi's new 
interpretation, certain inconvenient rules in the Aṣṭādhyāyī are then labeled 
as possible interpolations. At least Patañjali's extension of 1.4.2 to the 
whole of the Aṣṭādhyāyī does not leave the ekasaṃjñādhikāra high and dry. For 
these and many other cogent reasons pointed out by various scholars on this 
list, I remain unconvinced of these new proposals.
 An alternative investigation may involve keeping the scope of 1.4.2 
restricted to the ekasaṃjñādhikāra, as Pāṇini most likely intended, and see how 
one can account for the derivations for which Patañjali proposes to extend this 
rule to the rest of the Aṣṭādhyāyī. That would be my suggestion. Best regards,

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 4:50 AM John Lowe 
mailto:john.l...@ames.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear all,

what has surprised and worried me most in all this is the way that an 
unsubstantiated claim has been propagated as truth by Cambridge University, and 
by many otherwise reputable newspapers and broadcasters around the world 
including, in the UK, the BBC and the Independent newspaper, without any of 
them bothering to seek independent confirmation.

I would like to note the honourable exception of the NY Times, who I spoke to 
on Friday after they sought a third-party view. After I explained that this is 
not 'Cambridge student solves 2,500 year old mystery', but rather merely 
'Cambridge student proposes new idea, academic community yet to assess it', 
they quite rightly decided that it was not newsworthy. What I think would be 
much more newsworthy is quite how this Trump-esque propagation of what is 
really - at least at this point in time, that is, until or unless the claims 
are proved true and accepted in the academic community - fake news, happened.

It is of course good to see Sanskrit in the mainstream news, but at the expense 
of truth and academic integrity? I am not so sure.

Rishi, I like you and have supported you in the past, but since you have been 
bold enough to declare yourself the saviour of Pāṇinian studies, perhaps you 
will permit me a few critical comments/questions. The 'philological' argument 
you made in an earlier post does not actively support your argument. At best it 
shows that yes, para in the sense 'subsequent, to the right' can apply to 
contexts for rules. But that doesn't mean that 'subsequent' can't also apply in 
the context of the order of rules themselves, that is, it doesn't rule out the 
interpretation you are arguing against. What would be more probative would be 
to show that Pāṇini himself uses a different term for that, so that para cannot 
have the meaning usually assumed.

Then you note that most readers of this list wouldn't follow the detailed 
technical arguments. True perhaps, but what any academic could follow, what I 
would like in this context, and what is missing from your thesis, is any 

Re: [INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-20 Thread Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY
Dear John,

Thanks for a balanced commentary. I think there is too much of मया जितम्,
rather than a calm presentation and evaluation of alternative proposals.
The first historical question is to reccognize that it is Patañjali who
extends the scope of 1.4.2 beyond the *ekasaṃjñādhikāra* [i.e. the scope
defined by 1.4.1], and where this extension creates problems, Patañjali
interprets the word *para *to mean *iṣṭa *"desired," allowing a so called
*pūrvavipratiṣedha*. As a result, in Patañjali's proposal, the choice
between *paraṃ kāryaṃ *and *pūrvaṃ kāryam *is determined simply by looking
at what is *iṣṭa *"desirable" in a given derivation. OK. This is what
Patañjali's extension of 1.4.2 has given us. Now Rishi accepts Patañjali's
extension of 1.4.2 to the whole of the Aṣṭādhyāyī, but not his
understanding that the rule refers to a resolution of rule conflict by
referring to the order of the rules. Then he takes the word *para *to refer
to the order of morphemes in the derivation [left versus right context],
and not the order of rules in the Aṣṭādhyāyī. This makes the rule 1.4.2
rather irrelevant for the entire *ekasaṃjñādhikāra*, where the order of
morphemes in the derivation is not an issue. One then has to find new
innovative solutions for the choice of *saṃjñā *in this *ekasaṃjñādhikāra*,
while the very placement of 1.4.2 coming after 1.4.1 becomes rather
meaningless. To account for Rishi's new interpretation, certain
inconvenient rules in the Aṣṭādhyāyī are then labeled as possible
interpolations. At least Patañjali's extension of 1.4.2 to the whole of the
Aṣṭādhyāyī does not leave the *ekasaṃjñādhikāra *high and dry. For these
and many other cogent reasons pointed out by various scholars on this list,
I remain unconvinced of these new proposals.
 An alternative investigation may involve keeping the scope of 1.4.2
restricted to the *ekasaṃjñādhikāra*, as Pāṇini most likely intended, and
see how one can account for the derivations for which Patañjali proposes to
extend this rule to the rest of the Aṣṭādhyāyī. That would be my
suggestion. Best regards,

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 4:50 AM John Lowe  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> what has surprised and worried me most in all this is the way that an
> unsubstantiated claim has been propagated as truth by Cambridge University,
> and by many otherwise reputable newspapers and broadcasters around the
> world including, in the UK, the BBC and the Independent newspaper, without
> any of them bothering to seek independent confirmation.
>
> I would like to note the honourable exception of the NY Times, who I spoke
> to on Friday after they sought a third-party view. After I explained that
> this is not 'Cambridge student solves 2,500 year old mystery', but rather
> merely 'Cambridge student proposes new idea, academic community yet to
> assess it', they quite rightly decided that it was not newsworthy. What I
> think would be much more newsworthy is quite how this Trump-esque
> propagation of what is really - at least at this point in time, that is,
> until or unless the claims are proved true and accepted in the academic
> community - fake news, happened.
>
> It is of course good to see Sanskrit in the mainstream news, but at the
> expense of truth and academic integrity? I am not so sure.
>
> Rishi, I like you and have supported you in the past, but since you have
> been bold enough to declare yourself the saviour of Pāṇinian studies,
> perhaps you will permit me a few critical comments/questions. The
> 'philological' argument you made in an earlier post does not actively
> support your argument. At best it shows that yes, para in the sense
> 'subsequent, to the right' can apply to contexts for rules. But that
> doesn't mean that 'subsequent' can't also apply in the context of the order
> of rules themselves, that is, it doesn't rule out the interpretation you
> are arguing against. What would be more probative would be to show that
> Pāṇini himself uses a different term for that, so that para cannot have the
> meaning usually assumed.
>
> Then you note that most readers of this list wouldn't follow the detailed
> technical arguments. True perhaps, but what any academic could follow, what
> I would like in this context, and what is missing from your thesis, is any
> attempt at a quantitative and qualitative assessment of the relative
> coverage of your proposal vs the existing proposals. Let us say, for
> example, that the traditional Pāṇinīya model of rule interaction
> recognizes, or at least discusses, 30 exceptions or classes of exceptions,
> and the Kiparsky siddha model say 20. How many of these does your proposal
> immediately account for, without any other mechanisms required? 

[INDOLOGY] paratva again

2022-12-20 Thread John Lowe
Dear all,

what has surprised and worried me most in all this is the way that an 
unsubstantiated claim has been propagated as truth by Cambridge University, and 
by many otherwise reputable newspapers and broadcasters around the world 
including, in the UK, the BBC and the Independent newspaper, without any of 
them bothering to seek independent confirmation.

I would like to note the honourable exception of the NY Times, who I spoke to 
on Friday after they sought a third-party view. After I explained that this is 
not 'Cambridge student solves 2,500 year old mystery', but rather merely 
'Cambridge student proposes new idea, academic community yet to assess it', 
they quite rightly decided that it was not newsworthy. What I think would be 
much more newsworthy is quite how this Trump-esque propagation of what is 
really - at least at this point in time, that is, until or unless the claims 
are proved true and accepted in the academic community - fake news, happened.

It is of course good to see Sanskrit in the mainstream news, but at the expense 
of truth and academic integrity? I am not so sure.

Rishi, I like you and have supported you in the past, but since you have been 
bold enough to declare yourself the saviour of Pāṇinian studies, perhaps you 
will permit me a few critical comments/questions. The 'philological' argument 
you made in an earlier post does not actively support your argument. At best it 
shows that yes, para in the sense 'subsequent, to the right' can apply to 
contexts for rules. But that doesn't mean that 'subsequent' can't also apply in 
the context of the order of rules themselves, that is, it doesn't rule out the 
interpretation you are arguing against. What would be more probative would be 
to show that Pāṇini himself uses a different term for that, so that para cannot 
have the meaning usually assumed.

Then you note that most readers of this list wouldn't follow the detailed 
technical arguments. True perhaps, but what any academic could follow, what I 
would like in this context, and what is missing from your thesis, is any 
attempt at a quantitative and qualitative assessment of the relative coverage 
of your proposal vs the existing proposals. Let us say, for example, that the 
traditional Pāṇinīya model of rule interaction recognizes, or at least 
discusses, 30 exceptions or classes of exceptions, and the Kiparsky siddha 
model say 20. How many of these does your proposal immediately account for, 
without any other mechanisms required? To what extent can all the cases 
immediately accounted for on the previous models also be immediately accounted 
for on your model? What remains unassessed? What kinds of problematic cases are 
there, and what kinds of solutions are you forced into? How do the numbers and 
types of exceptions compare with those of previous approaches, and can this 
tell us anything about the relative value of the different approaches? This is 
not religion or poetry: it is, or at least aims to be, science - so there must 
be some objective verification available.

Your thesis admits that you have not considered the accent rules nor the Vedic 
rules, so at best you can only claim that your proposal works for a specific 
subset of the sutras. I also note that there are examples discussed in your 
thesis which don't immediately fall out from your proposal, and you admit the 
likelihood of more; and for these you propose 'solutions' like: excluding 
derivations involving uṇādi suffixes as being non-Pāṇinian (p. 230); proposing 
that rules which contradict your idea might be later additions to the 
Aṣṭādhyāyī (p. 212); taking forms which are standardly treated as two-step 
derivations as one-step derivations based on a previously fully constituted 
form (p. 231). To what extent are these 'solutions' better or worse, or 
narrower or broader in scope, than what is needed under earlier proposals?

Perhaps these solutions are valid in the particular cases you discuss, or 
perhaps not, but the point is: only if you, or someone else - but really it 
should be you first off - can provide a clear assessment of the overall 
picture, showing that your proposal uncontroversially - that is, in an 
objectively verifiable way - improves the empirical adequacy of the Aṣṭādhyāyī 
as a grammar of Pāṇinian Sanskrit in comparison with earlier interpretations, 
can the field even begin to move towards the point of accepting this as a 
revolution in our understanding. Otherwise, it is just another idea out there - 
a new one, and an interesting one, yes, and one you can be proud of, but not 
necessarily any better or truer than existing ideas.

John







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