Re: [Int-area] Comments on "per-app networking considerations" draft

2021-07-06 Thread Sørensen , Frode 
Linda,

Many thanks for your feedback. I generally agree with your comment. However, 
the draft is discussing and comparing different approaches. 3GPP offers one 
approach, and could be considered a kind of managed approach for services 
produced internally to the 3GPP architecture. Another approach is the general 
internet access, and I suggest to drill deeper into the description of that 
architecture. My comments seek to supplement the discussion already included in 
the draft, and as far as I understand, general internet access is also in scope 
of the draft.

Thanks,
Frode

Fra: Linda Dunbar 
Sendt: tirsdag 6. juli 2021 18:00
Til: Sørensen, Frode ; int-area@ietf.org
Emne: RE: [Int-area] Comments on "per-app networking considerations" draft

Frode,

That is a good summary.

3GPP use the notion of “Application Controller” that controls the services for 
applications. It is less likely to be users or application themselves 
exchanging App characteristics with network operators, more like that the users 
and applications register with their specific controllers for the types of 
services they need. Then the Controller exchange with the network.

Linda Dunbar

From: Int-area mailto:int-area-boun...@ietf.org>> On 
Behalf Of Sørensen, Frode
Sent: Sunday, July 4, 2021 12:54 AM
To: int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Comments on "per-app networking considerations" draft

Many thanks for an interesting draft and follow-up discussion on the list. A 
couple of supplementary thoughts from my side:

1) Application-based vs. user-based (or user-controlled)

I think the draft could benefit from distinguishing between these two terms. 
The intro section mentions that “use cases where network operators, or 
applications, might desire for application traffic to be treated differently by 
the network”. Applications don’t have desires per se, while such desires come 
from some person, which could be the end-user, the application developer or 
network operator (if the latter has influence on the implementation of the user 
host, as the draft explains).

The discussion thread on the list is touching the distinction. The user-based 
approach, signalled from the application to the network, mentioned by Yiannis, 
is interesting. In my understanding, the user could either request specific QoS 
treatment per session, or the user could configure this in the application via 
some user-interface. In both cases, this selection would be user-controlled, as 
opposed to operator-controlled.

2) Application categories vs. traffic categories

The draft uses the terms “categories” and “classes” several times, which is an 
essential part of the discussion. I think the text could benefit from 
distinguishing more clearly between whether the categories/classes are 
“application categories” or “traffic categories”. The distinction may be 
subtle, and an example might illustrate the point:

It is essential whether the network operator is classifying the traffic (e.g. 
by using DPI) based on application characteristics – or the end-user is 
selecting any application for special treatment (whereby the corresponding 
traffic is marked). The former case could be understood as an application 
category (and would be application-specific), and the latter could be 
understood as a traffic category (and would be application-agnostic, since any 
application may belong to the traffic category).

3) Regarding application categories

Application categories are easy to relate to when discussing principles, but 
are not that easy when it comes to practical implementation. This is already 
covered to some extent by the discussion thread below, regarding zero-rating in 
particular. A major challenge is how to define the categories and how to decide 
which category specific applications belong to.

One might of course establish procedures regarding such questions (as 
elaborated in the email thread), but it is likely that there will anyway be 
borderline cases, and conflicts may occur. To that end, traffic categories 
which are user-controlled and application-agnostic will be significantly 
different from application categories. Therefore, I think it would be valuable 
to further clarify the description regarding categorization in the draft.


In my view, the draft describes an important topic, providing an 
implementation-independent overview of per-application networking, and 
discussing principal implications of such networking, which could be useful 
when considering different concrete implementations. I support continued 
development of the draft.

Best,
Frode


-- Original Message --
From: Yiannis Yiakoumis mailto:gyiakou...@gmail.com>>
Date: Thursday, June 17 2021 at 2:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Comments on "per-app networking considerations" draft
To: Lorenzo Colitti mailto:lore...@google.com>>
Cc: Int-area@ietf.org

___
Int-area

Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt

2021-07-06 Thread Hesham ElBakoury 
Mark Handley published the paper "*Using ground relays for low-latency
wide-area routing in megaconstellations"* to show that even if we do not
have ISL we can use ground terminals to route traffic with better latency
than fiber links.

Thanks
Hesham


On Tue, Jul 6, 2021, 10:08 AM Lin Han  wrote:

> Hi, Jim
>
> I don't have clear answer.
> What I can guess now is that most of current technologies (with
> enhancement) can be used, but some new technologies might be needed to
> solve the satellite specific issues, such as fast mobility, frequent
> topology changes, constraints in satellite power, security in open space,
> etc.
> It is up to the community to decide what new technologies and what new
> protocols will be developed.
>
> Regards
>
> Lin
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: UTTARO, JAMES 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 7:20 AM
> To: Lin Han ; Int-area@ietf.org; i...@ietf.org;
> rt...@ietf.org
> Cc: sa...@jiscmail.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for
> draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt
>
> Lin,
>
> Are you suggesting that the current set of protocols can be used
> with or without enhancements or is the uniqueness of the satellite network
> require new protocol(s) to address the architecture you have laid out..
>
> Thanks,
> Jim Uttaro
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Idr  On Behalf Of Lin Han
> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2021 8:41 PM
> To: Int-area@ietf.org; i...@ietf.org; rt...@ietf.org
> Cc: sa...@jiscmail.ac.uk
> Subject: [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for
> draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt
>
> Hi,
>
> This draft analyzed the problems and requirements for the satellite
> network when it is integrated with Internet by current routing
> technologies.
> It may be relevant and interesting to internet, BGP, IGP. The further
> solution proposals may also come from different groups including research
> initiative SARAH.
>
> Look forwarding to discussion and comments.
>
> Thanks
>
> Lin
>
> -Original Message-
> From: internet-dra...@ietf.org 
> Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 5:07 PM
> To: Lin Han ; Richard Li 
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Lin Han and posted to the IETF
> repository.
>
> Name:   draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net
> Revision:   00
> Title:  Problems and Requirements of Satellite Constellation for
> Internet
> Document date:  2021-07-03
> Group:  Individual Submission
> Pages:  32
> URL:
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fwww.ietf.org*2Farchive*2Fid*2Fdraft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt%26amp%3Bdata%3D04*7C01*7Clin.han*40futurewei.com*7C495bb2e109a743748f6108d93e7fa6f8*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C0*7C637609540278583772*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000%26amp%3Bsdata%3DqoFJMo63iQsH8W9iTaP5Vx*2F4OjIhXHoY*2BrdbcM*2FMntM*3D%26amp%3Breserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!BhdT!xvPiP9_hbkTD5NSajUzwqMhYGZLdFbSjp8NUTJ6PMxLHqI6tW_E4RbgGabg%24data=04%7C01%7Clin.han%40futurewei.com%7Cc54df16138144c7ed23408d940893b44%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637611780428304372%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=xeP%2BMuWGk%2By8UtK8K9Oinjvk50jBp%2FuZQ2
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>  served=0
> Html:
>

[Int-area] FW: Comments on "per-app networking considerations" draft

2021-07-06 Thread Linda Dunbar 

Frode,

That is a good summary.

3GPP use the notion of “Application Controller” that controls the services for 
applications. It is less likely to be users or application themselves 
exchanging App characteristics with network operators, more like that the users 
and applications register with their specific controllers for the types of 
services they need. Then the Controller exchange with the network.

Linda Dunbar

From: Int-area mailto:int-area-boun...@ietf.org>> On 
Behalf Of Sørensen, Frode
Sent: Sunday, July 4, 2021 12:54 AM
To: int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Comments on "per-app networking considerations" draft

Many thanks for an interesting draft and follow-up discussion on the list. A 
couple of supplementary thoughts from my side:

1) Application-based vs. user-based (or user-controlled)

I think the draft could benefit from distinguishing between these two terms. 
The intro section mentions that “use cases where network operators, or 
applications, might desire for application traffic to be treated differently by 
the network”. Applications don’t have desires per se, while such desires come 
from some person, which could be the end-user, the application developer or 
network operator (if the latter has influence on the implementation of the user 
host, as the draft explains).

The discussion thread on the list is touching the distinction. The user-based 
approach, signalled from the application to the network, mentioned by Yiannis, 
is interesting. In my understanding, the user could either request specific QoS 
treatment per session, or the user could configure this in the application via 
some user-interface. In both cases, this selection would be user-controlled, as 
opposed to operator-controlled.

2) Application categories vs. traffic categories

The draft uses the terms “categories” and “classes” several times, which is an 
essential part of the discussion. I think the text could benefit from 
distinguishing more clearly between whether the categories/classes are 
“application categories” or “traffic categories”. The distinction may be 
subtle, and an example might illustrate the point:

It is essential whether the network operator is classifying the traffic (e.g. 
by using DPI) based on application characteristics – or the end-user is 
selecting any application for special treatment (whereby the corresponding 
traffic is marked). The former case could be understood as an application 
category (and would be application-specific), and the latter could be 
understood as a traffic category (and would be application-agnostic, since any 
application may belong to the traffic category).

3) Regarding application categories

Application categories are easy to relate to when discussing principles, but 
are not that easy when it comes to practical implementation. This is already 
covered to some extent by the discussion thread below, regarding zero-rating in 
particular. A major challenge is how to define the categories and how to decide 
which category specific applications belong to.

One might of course establish procedures regarding such questions (as 
elaborated in the email thread), but it is likely that there will anyway be 
borderline cases, and conflicts may occur. To that end, traffic categories 
which are user-controlled and application-agnostic will be significantly 
different from application categories. Therefore, I think it would be valuable 
to further clarify the description regarding categorization in the draft.


In my view, the draft describes an important topic, providing an 
implementation-independent overview of per-application networking, and 
discussing principal implications of such networking, which could be useful 
when considering different concrete implementations. I support continued 
development of the draft.

Best,
Frode


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Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt

2021-07-06 Thread Lin Han 
Hi, Jim

I don't have clear answer.
What I can guess now is that most of current technologies (with enhancement) 
can be used, but some new technologies might be needed to solve the satellite 
specific issues, such as fast mobility, frequent topology changes, constraints 
in satellite power, security in open space, etc.
It is up to the community to decide what new technologies and what new 
protocols will be developed.

Regards

Lin


-Original Message-
From: UTTARO, JAMES  
Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 7:20 AM
To: Lin Han ; Int-area@ietf.org; i...@ietf.org; 
rt...@ietf.org
Cc: sa...@jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for 
draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt

Lin,

Are you suggesting that the current set of protocols can be used with 
or without enhancements or is the uniqueness of the satellite network require 
new protocol(s) to address the architecture you have laid out.. 

Thanks,
Jim Uttaro

-Original Message-
From: Idr  On Behalf Of Lin Han
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2021 8:41 PM
To: Int-area@ietf.org; i...@ietf.org; rt...@ietf.org
Cc: sa...@jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for 
draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt

Hi, 

This draft analyzed the problems and requirements for the satellite network 
when it is integrated with Internet by current routing technologies. 
It may be relevant and interesting to internet, BGP, IGP. The further solution 
proposals may also come from different groups including research initiative 
SARAH.

Look forwarding to discussion and comments.

Thanks

Lin

-Original Message-
From: internet-dra...@ietf.org  
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 5:07 PM
To: Lin Han ; Richard Li 
Subject: New Version Notification for 
draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Lin Han and posted to the IETF repository.

Name:   draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net
Revision:   00
Title:  Problems and Requirements of Satellite Constellation for 
Internet
Document date:  2021-07-03
Group:  Individual Submission
Pages:  32
URL:
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fwww.ietf.org*2Farchive*2Fid*2Fdraft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt%26amp%3Bdata%3D04*7C01*7Clin.han*40futurewei.com*7C495bb2e109a743748f6108d93e7fa6f8*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C0*7C637609540278583772*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000%26amp%3Bsdata%3DqoFJMo63iQsH8W9iTaP5Vx*2F4OjIhXHoY*2BrdbcM*2FMntM*3D%26amp%3Breserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!BhdT!xvPiP9_hbkTD5NSajUzwqMhYGZLdFbSjp8NUTJ6PMxLHqI6tW_E4RbgGabg%24data=04%7C01%7Clin.han%40futurewei.com%7Cc54df16138144c7ed23408d940893b44%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637611780428304372%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=xeP%2BMuWGk%2By8UtK8K9Oinjvk50jBp%2FuZQ2
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[Int-area] Call for Agenda Items @IETF111

2021-07-06 Thread Wassim Haddad 
Dear all,

In preparation for the Intarea WG meeting (scheduled on Friday, 07/30), please 
send agenda requests to the chairs.
Please indicate short abstract, draft name and time requested


Thanks,

Juan & Wassim
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Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt

2021-07-06 Thread UTTARO, JAMES 
Lin,

Are you suggesting that the current set of protocols can be used with 
or without enhancements or is the uniqueness of the satellite network require 
new protocol(s) to address the architecture you have laid out.. 

Thanks,
Jim Uttaro

-Original Message-
From: Idr  On Behalf Of Lin Han
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2021 8:41 PM
To: Int-area@ietf.org; i...@ietf.org; rt...@ietf.org
Cc: sa...@jiscmail.ac.uk
Subject: [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for 
draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt

Hi, 

This draft analyzed the problems and requirements for the satellite network 
when it is integrated with Internet by current routing technologies. 
It may be relevant and interesting to internet, BGP, IGP. The further solution 
proposals may also come from different groups including research initiative 
SARAH.

Look forwarding to discussion and comments.

Thanks

Lin

-Original Message-
From: internet-dra...@ietf.org  
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 5:07 PM
To: Lin Han ; Richard Li 
Subject: New Version Notification for 
draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Lin Han and posted to the IETF repository.

Name:   draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net
Revision:   00
Title:  Problems and Requirements of Satellite Constellation for 
Internet
Document date:  2021-07-03
Group:  Individual Submission
Pages:  32
URL:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.ietf.org*2Farchive*2Fid*2Fdraft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txtdata=04*7C01*7Clin.han*40futurewei.com*7C495bb2e109a743748f6108d93e7fa6f8*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C0*7C637609540278583772*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000sdata=qoFJMo63iQsH8W9iTaP5Vx*2F4OjIhXHoY*2BrdbcM*2FMntM*3Dreserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!BhdT!xvPiP9_hbkTD5NSajUzwqMhYGZLdFbSjp8NUTJ6PMxLHqI6tW_E4RbgGabg$
 
Status: 
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Abstract:
   This document presents the detailed analysis about the problems and
   requirements of satellite constellation used for Internet.  It starts
   from the satellite orbit basics, coverage calculation, then it
   estimates the time constraints for the communications between
   satellite and ground-station, also between satellites.  How to use
   satellite constellation for Internet is discussed in details
   including the satellite relay and satellite networking.  The problems
   and requirements of using traditional network technology for
   satellite network integrating with Internet are finally outlined.


  


The IETF Secretariat


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