Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi Joe, > -Original Message- > From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 7:03 AM > To: t.petch <ie...@btconnect.com>; Templin, Fred L <fred.l.temp...@boeing.com> > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Questio

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi, Tom, On 10/12/2016 2:32 AM, t.petch wrote: > Joe > > Looking some more, I think that the carefully defined terminology is not > then used so carefully! I agree; we have been asking for this sort of feedback for several years. I'm glad to finally receive it, though I would note that the focus

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Joe Looking some more, I think that the carefully defined terminology is not then used so carefully! s.2.2 defines the term 'forwarder' but by 3.5, 'router' moves in and forwarder is never used again. Is this of technical significance, or just a question of the style of the author(?s)? I think

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi, Tom, I do agree that the terminology in the current version is confusing and it would be useful to be both more clear and more consistent. As I noted, I'll discuss this with Mark further and revise. Joe On 10/11/2016 3:05 AM, t.petch wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Joe

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

- Original Message - From: "Joe Touch" Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 7:15 PM > HI, Fred (et al.), > > ... > > IMHO, your draft is getting wrapped up with too many new acronyms for no > > good reason when simple English-language text would make things easier to > >

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu] >> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 11:15 AM >> To: Templin, Fred L <fred.l.temp...@boeing.com>; t.petch >> <ie...@btconnect.com> >> Cc: int-area@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03 >>

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

to understand. Thanks - Fred > -Original Message- > From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu] > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 11:15 AM > To: Templin, Fred L <fred.l.temp...@boeing.com>; t.petch <ie...@btconnect.com> > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-ar

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

HI, Fred (et al.), ... > IMHO, your draft is getting wrapped up with too many new acronyms for no > good reason when simple English-language text would make things easier to > understand. We're dealing with legacy use of the term MTU and path MTU too, though. > In 'draft-templin-aerolink',

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi Joe, > -Original Message- > From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu] > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 10:29 AM > To: t.petch <ie...@btconnect.com>; Templin, Fred L <fred.l.temp...@boeing.com> > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Questions to dr

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi, Tom, On 10/9/2016 3:05 AM, t.petch wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Joe Touch" > Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 12:24 AM > > >> Hi, Tom, >> >> Thanks for pointing that out. I'll try to revise to make that easier. >> >> If you have any other specific examples,

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

gt; Cc: towns...@cisco.com; int-area@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03 > > On Friday, October 7, 2016 8:48 AM, Fred Templin wrote: > > ... > > As per your doc, it is the reassembly buffer size (and not the sizes of any > > links th

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

- Original Message - From: "Joe Touch" Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 12:24 AM > Hi, Tom, > > Thanks for pointing that out. I'll try to revise to make that easier. > > If you have any other specific examples, please let me know (either > on-list or directly). Joe How

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Christian, > On Oct 7, 2016, at 9:57 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: > >> On Friday, October 7, 2016 8:48 AM, Fred Templin wrote: >> ... >> As per your doc, it is the reassembly buffer size (and not the sizes of any >> links the >> tunnel is configured over) that determines

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

On Friday, October 7, 2016 8:48 AM, Fred Templin wrote: > ... > As per your doc, it is the reassembly buffer size (and not the sizes of any > links the > tunnel is configured over) that determines the tunnel MTU. So, in this > example, the > egress could just as well configure a 9KB reassembly

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi, Tom, Thanks for pointing that out. I'll try to revise to make that easier. If you have any other specific examples, please let me know (either on-list or directly). Thanks, Joe On 10/7/2016 10:15 AM, t.petch wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Joe Touch" > To:

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi, I just submitted a new version of the AERO spec that includes a section on packet sizing issues that relates directly to this discussion. Please review Section 3.12 of the AERO document and compare it to what appears in intarea-tunnels. The two documents should be in agreement. Thanks - Fred

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Linda, On 10/7/2016 8:50 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Joe, > > > > Most hosts use MTU path discovery to choose the smallest MTU before > sending the data frame. > Yes, with the caveat that PMTUD doesn't always work (due to ICMP blocking) and PLMTUD is supported only in a few protocols. > If

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Of *Joe > Touch > *Sent:* Friday, October 07, 2016 8:33 AM > *To:* Linda Dunbar <linda.dun...@huawei.com> > *Cc:* towns...@cisco.com; int-area@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03 > > > > > > > On Oct 7, 2016, at 8:1

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

- Fred From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 8:33 AM To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dun...@huawei.com> Cc: towns...@cisco.com; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03 On Oct 7, 2016, at 8

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Joe, Most hosts use MTU path discovery to choose the smallest MTU before sending the data frame. If the Tunnel Ingress only uses the Tunnel egress MTU as the size to determine if the frames need to be fragmented, then it will need immediate nodes to do further fragmentation. What if the

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi Tom, > Joe > > I find paragraphs such as > > " Fragmentation is critical tunnels that support TTP packets for >protocols with minimum MTU requirements, while operating over tunnel >paths using protocols with minimum MTU requirements. Depending on the >amount of space used by

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

- Original Message - From: "Joe Touch" To: "Templin, Fred L" ; "Linda Dunbar" ; Cc: Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 4:00 PM > Hi, Fred, > On 10/7/2016 7:43 AM, Templin, Fred L

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

then it is OK to use it. Thanks - Fred From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 9:23 AM To: Joe Touch <to...@isi.edu> Cc: towns...@cisco.com; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03 J

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

On 10/7/2016 9:23 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Joe, > > > > I agree this sentence of you said “. It uses the MTU of the path > inside the tunnel to decide how to fragment.” > > Your above statement contradicts with the following sentence in the > draft: > > “The egress MTU determines the

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Joe, I agree this sentence of you said “. It uses the MTU of the path inside the tunnel to decide how to fragment.” Your above statement contradicts with the following sentence in the draft: “The egress MTU determines the largest IP packet (or fragment) that can traverse either a link or a

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

re-sending cut down to try to get past the intarea size filters (seriously?) Joe On 10/7/2016 9:05 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > > Linda, > > > On 10/7/2016 8:50 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote: >> >> Joe, >> >> >> >> Most hosts use MTU path discovery to choose the smallest MTU before >> sending the data

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

> On Oct 7, 2016, at 8:15 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Joe, > > You said “The egress MTU determines the largest IP packet (or fragment) that > can traverse either a link or a tunnel.” > > If a Tunnel traverse some segments of very old layer 2 network with MTU = >

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Joe, You said "The egress MTU determines the largest IP packet (or fragment) that can traverse either a link or a tunnel." If a Tunnel traverse some segments of very old layer 2 network with MTU = 1500, but the Tunnel Egress node is a modern node with MTU = 2000 bytes. I would think the Tunnel

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

m>; towns...@cisco.com Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03 Hi, Fred, On 10/7/2016 7:43 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: Joe's analogy of ATM AAL5 is also exactly correct. And, as Joe says, the cell size does not matter *as long as the cell size can travers

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi, Fred, On 10/7/2016 7:43 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > Joe’s analogy of ATM AAL5 is also exactly correct. And, as Joe says, > the cell > > size does not matter *as long as the cell size can traverse the tunnel > without > > loss due to a size restriction*. That is why the nominal cell size >

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

cell sizes can be used. Thanks - Fred From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2016 9:48 PM To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dun...@huawei.com>; towns...@cisco.com Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunn

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi, Linda, On 10/6/2016 4:36 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Joe, > > > > I strongly agree with what you said “A link MTU is different from a > path MTU”. > > > > A Tunnel MTU is more like “path MTU” because > > - the Tunnel MTU is the minimum of all the links’ MTU that > the “tunnel”

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Joe, I strongly agree with what you said "A link MTU is different from a path MTU". A Tunnel MTU is more like "path MTU" because - the Tunnel MTU is the minimum of all the links' MTU that the "tunnel" traverse, - the fragmented segments may be out of order when arriving at

Re: [Int-area] Questions to draft-intarea-tunnels-03

Hi, Linda, On 10/6/2016 1:34 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Joe and Mark, > > > > > > You said “Because tunnels are links, they are subject to the same > issues as any link, e.g. MTU..” > > The MTU issue exist between any two points in a network. > A link MTU is different from a path MTU, as