-Original Message-
From: yohg...@gmail.com [mailto:yohg...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
Yasuo Ohgaki
Hi all,
2013/7/21 Sherif Ramadan theanomaly...@gmail.com
The problem is I'm not sure where this type of information should
be
documented. It makes sense to put this on the
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
Your example -$a * $a isn't at all the same because -$a doesn't produce
side-effects, only output.
It doesn't have side effects. This is true. So I retract my argument there.
I never said that the compiler might
Hi Sara,
2013/7/20 Sara Golemon poll...@php.net
What's undefined isn't the relationship between preinc/postinc and add.
What's undefined is the use of multiple preinc/postinc operators within a
single expression (preincrements in particular). Our parser grammer, as it
currently stands, does
Hi!
I cannot believe this is true now, but I ask list before I fix doc.
I don't think there's something that needs to be fixed. Undefined
means it depends on implementation and we do not want to commit to a
specific behavior here because implementations may change. This is a
fair warning
Hi!
If there aren't comments, I'll rewrite the example.
There were comments. I explicitly told you that that the behavior is
defined as undefined. You CHOSE to ignore that comment. You CHOSE to
break the documentation.
Besides that, asking for comments and committing the same day is not
Hi Stas,
2013/7/20 Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com
Hi!
If there aren't comments, I'll rewrite the example.
There were comments. I explicitly told you that that the behavior is
defined as undefined. You CHOSE to ignore that comment. You CHOSE to
break the documentation.
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 3:37 AM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote:
Hi!
I cannot believe this is true now, but I ask list before I fix doc.
I don't think there's something that needs to be fixed. Undefined
means it depends on implementation and we do not want to commit to a
Hi all,
Explanation for undefined behaviors.
===
// If a side effect on a variable is unsequenced relative to another
// side effect on the same variable, the behavior is undefined.
$i = 1;
$i = ++$i + $i++; // undefined behavior
$i = $i++ + 1; // undefined behavior
On 07/20/2013 08:00 AM, Sherif Ramadan wrote:
While this is very true it's also a matter of discretion, because the
language doesn't clearly define a lot of things. In fact, one can argue
that there is no language definition at all since PHP doesn't even have a
spec. Though I'm trying to take
Hi!
I agree that we should not rush to commit changes in the midst of
on-going discussion. However, I have to just add to this notion of
undefined behavior that by your definition ALL of PHP is undefined
behavior. Everything we do is an implementation detail. What
This is certainly not true.
After some digging and a little more thought I find that removing this
comment from the example in the docs at
www.php.net/language.operators.precedence does indeed cause more harm than
good. So I'm definitely wrong in saying that it should be removed.
However, I would like to acknowledge the
Hi all,
2013/7/21 Sherif Ramadan theanomaly...@gmail.com
The problem is I'm not sure where this type of information should be
documented. It makes sense to put this on the increment/decrement operators
page, but doesn't seem appropriate the operator precedence page. So to make
sure we're all
Hi all,
Take a look at this bug report.
https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=65087
He complains about documentation of ++/--.
The doc says
http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.operators.precedence.php
---
// mixing ++ and + produces undefined behavior
$a = 1;
echo ++$a + $a++; // may
If run right now, it will always produce the same value (4), but it isn't
*defined* to do so. What that means is that behavior is subject to change
without notice, warning, or justification. This is a somewhat harsh way of
saying Don't write expressions with ambiguous evaluations, that's clowny.
Hi Sara,
2013/7/20 Sara Golemon poll...@php.net
I would ask that you don't fix the docs, as we want to continue to
discourage users from engaging in unsafe behaviors.
If precedence is implemented correctly, there should not be any ambiguity.
If precedence is not implemented correctly, I
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net wrote:
Hi Sara,
2013/7/20 Sara Golemon poll...@php.net
I would ask that you don't fix the docs, as we want to continue to
discourage users from engaging in unsafe behaviors.
If precedence is implemented correctly, there
Hi Sherif,
Thank you for your info!
2013/7/20 Sherif Ramadan theanomaly...@gmail.com
I don't see where there is a bug in the documentation, no.
It is in doc's example code.
--
// mixing ++ and + produces undefined behavior
$a = 1;
echo ++$a + $a++; // may print 4 or 5
--
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:16 PM, Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net wrote:
Hi Sherif,
Thank you for your info!
2013/7/20 Sherif Ramadan theanomaly...@gmail.com
I don't see where there is a bug in the documentation, no.
It is in doc's example code.
Then I would say that example is
Hi Sheif,
2013/7/20 Sherif Ramadan theanomaly...@gmail.com
Then I would say that example is wrong, but people may find reason to
disagree. I'm basing my contention purely off what I see in php-src and the
documented behavior for those operators. To me I see no reason why this
behavior would
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net wrote:
Hi Sheif,
2013/7/20 Sherif Ramadan theanomaly...@gmail.com
Then I would say that example is wrong, but people may find reason to
disagree. I'm basing my contention purely off what I see in php-src and the
documented
Hi Sherif,
I changed the example as follows.
Thank you for your comment.
[yohgaki@dev en]$ svn diff
Index: language/operators.xml
===
--- language/operators.xml (リビジョン 330982)
+++ language/operators.xml (作業コピー)
@@ -225,15 +225,16 @@
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net wrote:
If there aren't comments, I'll rewrite the example.
There were comments. I explicitly told you that that the behavior is
defined as undefined. You CHOSE to ignore that comment. You CHOSE to
break the documentation.
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net wrote:
If there aren't comments, I'll rewrite the example.
There were comments. I explicitly told you that that the behavior is
defined as undefined.
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 9:56 PM, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net wrote:
If there aren't comments, I'll rewrite the example.
There were comments. I explicitly told you that that the behavior is
defined as
Hi Sara,
2013/7/20 Sara Golemon poll...@php.net
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Yasuo Ohgaki yohg...@ohgaki.net wrote:
If there aren't comments, I'll rewrite the example.
There were comments. I explicitly told you that that the behavior is
defined as undefined. You CHOSE to ignore
What's undefined isn't the relationship between preinc/postinc and add.
What's undefined is the use of multiple preinc/postinc operators within a
single expression (preincrements in particular). Our parser grammer, as it
currently stands, does have a predictable order, but that is a side-effect
Sara,
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
What's undefined isn't the relationship between preinc/postinc and add.
What's undefined is the use of multiple preinc/postinc operators within a
single expression
I'm sorry but I can not find any evidence of how
I'm disappointed $a+$a doesn't work as expected :(
On 20 July 2013 06:08, Sherif Ramadan theanomaly...@gmail.com wrote:
Sara,
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
What's undefined isn't the relationship between preinc/postinc and add.
What's
Your example -$a * $a isn't at all the same because -$a doesn't produce
side-effects, only output.
I never said that the compiler might magically produce differing results
for the same input. I said that the language's definition does not declare
a defined behavior for such expressions with
(Piggy-backing on Sara's e-mail, although this is more a response to
Sherif and Yasuo.)
On 19 July 2013 22:33, Sara Golemon poll...@php.net wrote:
I never said that the compiler might magically produce differing results
for the same input. I said that the language's definition does not declare
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