Re: Xinerama Status?
Hi, Clemens Fruhwirth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 2007-06-22: > Can someone give me a status update on the latest Xinerama support? > Just a few lines, whether it works or if it's broken. Depending on the > answer I might want to bump my xft patches to the latest RC and create > a separate distribution tar ball. It works for me with the latest rc, after being broken in the one before. ciao, -- [*Thomas Themel*] Das passiert den meisten Systemen die gut funktionieren, [extended contact] man hört nichts davon, sie geraten in Vergessenheit und [info provided in] verschwinden dann. [*message header*] - Erwin Burgstaller in at.linux
Re: Xinerama
On 09/04/07, Thomas Themel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,
Thomas Themel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 2007-04-09:
> I'll publish a complete version including the build/install stuff and
> docs after a little testing (maybe after I figure out the bindmap stuff
> that tuomov was referring to :)).
Okay, since it works for me, here goes:
darcs get http://wannabehacker.com/repos/mod_xinerama-3/
or via HTTP: http://wannabehacker.com/src/mod_xinerama-20070409.tar.gz
It works on my personal unecological penis enlargement using a pretty
much unmodified ion3 config. If you encounter any problems, please let
me know. Thanks to tuomov for the outline (and of course the window
manager running it).
Very nice! I was a bit confused for a bit when dopath("mod_xinerama")
did nothing, but adding it to cfg_ion.lua and "killall -USR1 ion3"
applied it. I haven't been using it very long, but it seems to "just
work."
Thanks muchly!
--
Jarrod Lowe
Re: Xinerama
On 4/9/07, Thomas Themel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, Thomas Themel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 2007-04-09: > I'll publish a complete version including the build/install stuff and > docs after a little testing (maybe after I figure out the bindmap stuff > that tuomov was referring to :)). Okay, since it works for me, here goes: darcs get http://wannabehacker.com/repos/mod_xinerama-3/ or via HTTP: http://wannabehacker.com/src/mod_xinerama-20070409.tar.gz It works on my personal unecological penis enlargement using a pretty much unmodified ion3 config. If you encounter any problems, please let me know. Thanks to tuomov for the outline (and of course the window manager running it). ciao, Thank you very much! Great job. I have been thinking about doing it myself but I never found the time... Seb -- I've never played by the rules, but I've played with the rules.
Re: Xinerama
Hi, Thomas Themel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 2007-04-09: > I'll publish a complete version including the build/install stuff and > docs after a little testing (maybe after I figure out the bindmap stuff > that tuomov was referring to :)). Okay, since it works for me, here goes: darcs get http://wannabehacker.com/repos/mod_xinerama-3/ or via HTTP: http://wannabehacker.com/src/mod_xinerama-20070409.tar.gz It works on my personal unecological penis enlargement using a pretty much unmodified ion3 config. If you encounter any problems, please let me know. Thanks to tuomov for the outline (and of course the window manager running it). ciao, -- [*Thomas Themel*] Freedom includes the freedom to be foolish, [extended contact] to be sick. Free choice includes the freedom to [info provided in] choose badly. [*message header*] - P.W. Huber, Orwell's Revenge
Re: Xinerama
Hi, Nick Murdoch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 2007-04-07: > How would I go about installing that module? I'll publish a complete version including the build/install stuff and docs after a little testing (maybe after I figure out the bindmap stuff that tuomov was referring to :)). ciao, -- [*Thomas Themel*] [extended contact] /* Conforms to the XENIX standard. */ [info provided in] - Microsoft Platform SDK errno.h [*message header*]
Re: Xinerama
Thomas Themel wrote: > Hi, > > I just had a first stab at implementing a Xinerama module as outlined in > Tuomo's 2007-01-17 post[0], see attached mod_xinerama.c. Well done! I've been missing ion3's new features since I switched back to ion2 :) How would I go about installing that module?
Re: Xinerama
Thomas Themel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 2007-04-07: > Hints? After a good night's sleep, I figured out that MPLEX_ATTACH_UNNUMBERED is what I was looking for. ciao, -- [*Thomas Themel*] "Die meisten Raucher sterben nicht an [extended contact] Lungenkrebs, sondern erfrieren auf [info provided in] Balkonen." [*message header*] -- Timo Maier in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Doing more with less & Re: Xinerama support
(Perhaps it would be better to take the part of this thread not directly related to Xinerama off-list. Some people may be getting annoyed. But, whatever: I don't particularly like on-topic police myself, due to crappy technologies. Mailing lists suck, as there's no simple light-weight way to redirect discussions elsewhere, as in Usenet. But Usenet/NNTP is also too clumsy too with its rigid or spammed hierarchies.) On 2007-02-01, G.H. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Athcool: I have tried any software possible (?) but I prefer 'powernowd' > which was successful in mad tasks such as my old amd64 3500's "old"? Doesn't sound old at all. My AthlonXP 2500+ (from mid-2003, IIRC) doesn't even have that frequency control shit yet, and I don't consider it old. It only supports whatever athcool turns on (it doesn't actively control anything). (My older Duron 1GHz would, indeed, be quite sufficient for my needs, but its mobo leaked the juices out of its capacitors only after a year, without showing any signs until later, and so I had to get new mobo/cpu/memory, as finding out the broken one of them would've been too laboursome.) > And I think the main goal on using GNU/Linux is about pushing out the > capabilities of cheap hardware... I know... Doesn't seem like people are doing that. No, they're getting bigger penis enlargements instead of... > Multihead: > --- > I don't agree with some arguments proposed in early posts. There are very > many ways of serious criticism on the techno-empiricism exposed here: In > my modest opinion (which is not mine indeed) the brain is just tied to the > senses but no directly "co-responsible" in the cognitive functions, so is > not possible to measure the cognitive capabilities of one individual or > his psychical-motor development in the perspective of his angle of vision > [...] That is indeed a reductionist explanation, and the possibilities > into the multihead settings are not just focused on vision but rater in > the interaction and expressiveness. > ... doing more with less. That's what my multihead criticism is all about: doing more with less. Multihead is wasteful: you don't technically need it to do what you want to do, unless penis enlargement is precisely what you want. As for the psychological side, i.e. your need for penis enlargements, I don't care. I just care what you purportedly need that wasteful extra screen (or other gizmo) for, and whether you technically really need it for that. I can be the judge of technical need if you provide the necessary information, and most of the time, there is not one, because people don't dare to say that it's penis enlargement precisely, what they want. You know, you probably could survive without that computer too. You don't need it to survive. But you need it for many other things, that I can agree with. And a screen too. But you don't need multiple screens, or a really big screen to do these things, just a modest-sized screen. You also shouldn't need a very powerful computer, and certainly not an x86 frying pan, but unfortunately these things are a bit out of any single person's control... (There are processors that demand far less energy for the same computing power as the x86 mount de manure, although their peak power may not be as high. But by using multiple low-power processors (or multicore) in parallel, you could get a lot of computing... That's where I think things will eventually head, if people get into their senses: many low-power computing units instead of a single centralised frying pan.) As you can see, it's all about doing more with less, and multihead is antithetic to that for most uses. As for a penis enlargement, well, rather a screen than a car, if people would just admit that's what they want it for. But better without either. (An urban automobile is like a penis with AIDS and pus, and an SUV the over-bloated same. Now, a train/metro/etc., that's a decent-sized healthy penis... and far more energy-efficient than that gas-guzzling murderous tin can.) > but dividing the screen by two in 17" monitors perhaps is not good > enough. It is. That's all I've ever had, and works great. For programming, for latex+pdf/dvi, for everything I've ever had to do. At least with Ion. And if you're using something worse, well, you could do more with less by switching to Ion. Or creating something even better. Of course you might be doing something that I don't do, that really does demand more screen space even in my opinion, but those handful of people most certainly people do not include techno-toy fetists bragging about their zillion monitor configurations, and crying after broken Xinerama support in Ion. > Finally, I am just thinking about the technical possibility of making > work Ion with some Xinerama alternative, perhaps MergedFB on ati > devices. Maybe repeating somebody in the list, would be possible to > point in that direction considering there are not m
Re: Xinerama support
I will point some things about Xinerama which I don't found in the list, but I am tempted to expose some non-Xinerama issues which many people have pointed too. So skip until Multihead section if you are interested but don't have time enough. Athcool: I have tried any software possible (?) but I prefer 'powernowd' which was successful in mad tasks such as my old amd64 3500's overclocking: I used to have my processor with his default fan at speed limits not googled ;> and even impossible rates for Windows XP (which downsized by a half the bogomips in my old machine) craziness [...] The thing remained cool all the time. Suspend: In the Linux side, other capabilities like software suspend really sucked in every computer tested, including my new Laptop HP dv8305. And I even don't need to repeat anything about 'network interfaces', /dev/cryptopsy, neither including 5 in 1 cards support or the mystery behind the Linux keyboard support: my keyboard lost 4 keys. However, HP dv8000 series are good enough and I can't realize how to adjust the budget only for suspending my chick: Thinkpads are actually expensive. And I think the main goal on using GNU/Linux is about pushing out the capabilities of cheap hardware... I know... Video Drivers: I have tortured my self trying to get ati drivers working. Though I realized how to get the 3D extension working properly after _three months_ of struggling with linux 2.6.17 + Xorg 7.1 + fglrx drivers. I find interesting ati drivers doesn't depend at all on Xinerama to get 'multihead' support, there is 'MergedFB'. I think nvidia has already an extension like that, but I cannot remember. Multihead: --- I don't agree with some arguments proposed in early posts. There are very many ways of serious criticism on the techno-empiricism exposed here: In my modest opinion (which is not mine indeed) the brain is just tied to the senses but no directly "co-responsible" in the cognitive functions, so is not possible to measure the cognitive capabilities of one individual or his psychical-motor development in the perspective of his angle of vision [...] That is indeed a reductionist explanation, and the possibilities into the multihead settings are not just focused on vision but rater in the interaction and expressiveness. That said, multihead would be a good "penis extension" if you think about graphic design, the torturing GUI programming (there are no VIS nowadays ;)), writing in pdf-latex and so on. Ion 3ds-20061223 is great, behaves better with those named floating windows, but dividing the screen by two in 17" monitors perhaps is not good enough. Finally, I am just thinking about the technical possibility of making work Ion with some Xinerama alternative, perhaps MergedFB on ati devices. Maybe repeating somebody in the list, would be possible to point in that direction considering there are not much documentation about? Ion is the best thing that happened into the GNU/Linux 'desktops' (a true revolution which perhaps Tuomo itself even don't realize) so I don't abandon the hope ... -- If god exists, would be not necessary to invent him. Mario G.H.
Re: Xinerama support
Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > All I've ever had swsusp do, is crash and panic. I had a funny suspend to RAM too: suspend worked perfectly, but is just forgot to resume, so, I had to hard-reboot the box to restart it. Hmm, it slightly decreases the advantage of suspend to RAM ;-). -- Matthieu
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-31, Joseph Goncalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If it wasn't working on my laptop then I wouldn't of started using Linux=20 > on my laptop. Luckily for me suspend2 works well on my laptops. All I've ever had swsusp do, is crash and panic. And even if it didn't crash, I seriously doubt it works seamlessly with X (and the proprietary NVidia drivers). Not that I have been able to try it recently, because upgrade the kernel is practically impossible. And how about encrypted swaps? Probably needs some serious hacking not nicely and _safely_ integrated into distros to get it working. [[Running over a year old 2.6.14. Newer versions AFAIK no longer have decent SATA drivers with the devices as predictable /dev/hde etc., instead demanding random SCSI mapping insanity and hence udev. An udev itself is crypto-slugware, the kid of crap that I will not have on my system. Plus compiling the kernel is a week long task: one day trying make oldconfig to notice that it doesn't work, a few days for the initial configuration, a few more days fixing it, and then a few days trying to restore the system to be able to run the old kernel. Linux sucks. And the stock kernels in the distributions boot years loading every single module in a random order, so that you dont't get the integrated buzzchip as the first sound card, the wrong ethernet interface as eth0 and so on. And the tools to customise the initrd demand -- you guessed it -- the plague of udev. Linux sucks. Today the network went down and apparently the kernel can't handle my static and dynamic IP not being in the same subnets now, not finding the routes. Newer kernels might not have the bug, but I can't upgrade for the above-mentioned reasons. Linux sucks. I wish FreeBSD got ice1712 driver so I could perhaps switch to Debian/kFreeBSD. Linux sucks.]] -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 07:50, Tuomo Valkonen wrote: > On 2007-01-22, Bruce Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > (One of our concerns at work was heat from CRTs (perhaps bizarrely, > > given that we're in south west London, but we really had been in an > > office where heat was a significant problem, though we aren't, > > now).) > > [And speaking of heat and power consumption, the state of software > suspend in Linux totally sucks, and yet it's one of the most > important features I can think of. It sucks having to leave the > computer on when you don't use it, because it's such a _chore_ to > bring it and all the programs up again, especially as session > management support sucks too (and there's no protocol it for terminal > programs). The hardware suspend support of desktop mobos also tends > to be poor, PSU fan still keeping humming and so on. (And I haven't > heard of that good things of the Linux laptop support either.) That's > one very good reason to use Windows: hibernate. Of course, even > better would be if the computer could run on _really_ low power, > shutting down all the fans, not using the disks except very > infrequently, and so on, but still react to ssh connection attempts > etc. ...). Well, at least with 'athcool' I managed to make the system > run 10C cooler most of the time.] If it wasn't working on my laptop then I wouldn't of started using Linux on my laptop. Luckily for me suspend2 works well on my laptops. pgpFT1kExc46j.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-31, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > just use right hardware ;) for example, hibernate and suspend to ram > works fine on thinkpads. Does it also spin down the couple of external hds? (Because the laptop surely isn't going to have enough disks pace.) How about the box providing a decent sound card? (I've yet to see a tolerable integrated chip that didn't completely distort the sound.) Laptops make quite lousy and expensive tabletop computers, what with an unnecessary screen and keyboard. (The foldable 17" computers aren't that good either. No, they're not laptops. More like dragtops.) Laptop keyboards are crap, just like tapping the table. And with the extra keyboard on the way, the screen becomes unusable as well (in addition to being already otherwise rather tiny for tabletop usage -- and too big to be mobile, really [1]). --- [1] http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/b/archives/2006/08/04/T21_13_29/ -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
just use right hardware ;) for example, hibernate and suspend to ram works fine on thinkpads. thanks, Alex > Tuomo Valkonen (TV) writes: TV> [And speaking of heat and power consumption, the state of software TV> suspend in Linux totally sucks, and yet it's one of the most important TV> features I can think of. It sucks having to leave the computer TV> on when you don't use it, because it's such a _chore_ to bring it TV> and all the programs up again, especially as session management support TV> sucks too (and there's no protocol it for terminal programs). The TV> hardware suspend support of desktop mobos also tends to be poor, PSU fan TV> still keeping humming and so on. (And I haven't heard of that good TV> things of the Linux laptop support either.) That's one very good reason TV> to use Windows: hibernate. Of course, even better would be if the computer TV> could run on _really_ low power, shutting down all the fans, not using TV> the disks except very infrequently, and so on, but still react to ssh TV> connection attempts etc. ...). Well, at least with 'athcool' I managed TV> to make the system run 10C cooler most of the time.] TV> -- TV> Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Here, AFAIK, you're supposed to be able to inspect the product just > like you could in a shop, and to do that, you need to plug it in. The difference of course being, that in a shop you can't inspect that _particular_ item you get, but the display article. And being able to inspect the one you get is the crux of getting a TFT without dead pixels. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Bruce Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> (At least in .fi, it's best to order TFTs online, BTW: the law dictates >> >> Wow. Sounds like a civilised place to live. :) It isn't. > I believe the law here's usually interpreted (by vendors, anyway) such > that if you actually open the box (and, even worse, plug the device > in), then you can no longer use the DSR to return it. Here, AFAIK, you're supposed to be able to inspect the product just like you could in a shop, and to do that, you need to plug it in. Basically the returned product has to be in a shape that it can still be sold as new. > In the meantime using two relatively cheap TFTs seems reasonable. A single TFT is more reasonable, unless you _really_ need the space, (i.e. can justify your need to me and other critics). Most don't, least of all for their home setups. (I suppose Seth here may have a proper need, if he _has to_ _monitor_ the _content_ -- and not just something in general happening -- of an IRC discussion constantly (modulo the product being supported being of any positive value), while doing something else. A rather small screen should suffice for that, though, e.g. that of a laptop if the computer itself was the laptop.) -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
Seth Arnold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > (I rarely need references while programming beyond 'man' in the > scratchpad, so the single display isn't a serious concern when > programming. :) Depends what you're doing, of course. Often I'm working with ITU standards (X.511, etc.), and I have those in PDF. For that matter, quite a few API docs seem to be in annoying frames-requiring HTML, which don't really squash that well. [...] >> (At least in .fi, it's best to order TFTs online, BTW: the law dictates >> an unconditional 14 day right of return, so if there's a single dead >> pixels, just return it, no questions asked. Can't do that with IRL >> shops.) Anyway, unless something really remarkable happens (like > > Wow. Sounds like a civilised place to live. :) Depends on how the member state has implemented the EU directive, of course. And how that law's interpreted by courts and companies. In the UK I believe the intention is that the Distance Selling Regulations provide a similar experience to consumers for things they've bought at a distance to what they'd get in a shop. Specifically, if we buy over the web we can't (necessarily) see the physical box, read what it's got on it, etc. I believe the law here's usually interpreted (by vendors, anyway) such that if you actually open the box (and, even worse, plug the device in), then you can no longer use the DSR to return it. And the legislation only applies to consumers, not business purchases. >> 4800x3600 on 17"), I'm likely to use this display as well, until it >> dies. > > We can dream.. Yeah, I'm waiting for the flexible, printed, high-resolution display. In the meantime using two relatively cheap TFTs seems reasonable. There's lots of experience producing them, so presumably there's less wastage than with less common varieties (unusually high resolution, maybe even widescreen, though I guess widescreen ones are common enough now).
Re: Xinerama support
On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 09:01:28PM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote: > Umm... why do you need to check on IRC an Email all the time? Perhaps I support internal and external users as part of my job; people expect (and get :) good response to their questions and problems. > not being able to concentrate on the work at hand is your problem? If my job required more dedicated programming, absolutely. In fact, when I do the bulk of my programming, I bring my laptop to a location without network access and program free of distractions. (I rarely need references while programming beyond 'man' in the scratchpad, so the single display isn't a serious concern when programming. :) > for year (kicking and hitting helps with dying hardware!), and then got "Technical tap" :) swearing rarely helps though :( > this TFT, using an ancient laptop as a serial terminal while the shop > took two weeks to deliver it (even though they had it in stock). Ugh. Yes, you -can- work in that environment, but that doesn't make it ideal. :) > (At least in .fi, it's best to order TFTs online, BTW: the law dictates > an unconditional 14 day right of return, so if there's a single dead > pixels, just return it, no questions asked. Can't do that with IRL > shops.) Anyway, unless something really remarkable happens (like Wow. Sounds like a civilised place to live. :) > 4800x3600 on 17"), I'm likely to use this display as well, until it > dies. We can dream.. pgpymsfuRFSnc.pgp Description: PGP signature
*****SPAM***** Re: Xinerama support
Spam detection software, running on the system "cbs.krieg.ag", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see admin for details. Content preview: Besides all economic issues with two power sucking devices versus one and gapless widescreen with one psu. My Company gives me only one crappy 16" TFT with bad resolution (1280x1024). But lucky me, i saved a 19" CRT from the crap yard a while ago. So thats what i have to work with. Period. There is no way i can get a 23" TFT, only because it is the better solution. [...] Content analysis details: (2.1 points, 2.0 required) pts rule name description -- -- 0.1 MISSING_HEADERSMissing To: header 2.0 BAYES_80 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 80 to 95% [score: 0.9028] --- Begin Message --- Besides all economic issues with two power sucking devices versus one and gapless widescreen with one psu. My Company gives me only one crappy 16" TFT with bad resolution (1280x1024). But lucky me, i saved a 19" CRT from the crap yard a while ago. So thats what i have to work with. Period. There is no way i can get a 23" TFT, only because it is the better solution. I can live with the argument that no one wants to fix/implement xinerama, because it's a pain, ugly or simply noone is motivated to implement something he does not use. Or whatsoever. That's a fair argument. That i can't use it ore someone thinks it's a bad idea does not mean i don't want it anymore. So please don't tell me i don't want it. ;) Some extra inches penis enlargement are a great thing for me. Moving my eys is much more intuitive and efficient than switching desktops. One screen for useless distractions like chat and email, and one to work on. That is how it worked for me for years. :) Am 22.01.2007 um 08:34 schrieb Tuomo Valkonen: On 2007-01-22, Seth Arnold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sometimes it is more economical to purchase two lower-resolution devices than one high-resolution device -- at least, that was the case five years ago when I changed from a 1600x1200 fuzzy CRT to two 1280x1024 LCDs. I didn't want to give up the screen space, but a 1600x1200 LCD was simply not in my budget at the time. You don't need that much space. Your field of vision isn't that big at a "working distance" (as opposed to "monitoring distance") from the screens, so you could just as well switch a workspace as turn your head to the other display. Like I say in the FAQ, the real reason for multihead is penis enlargment most of the time. (I'd even bet money that my two LCDs draw less power than that crummy old CRT. :) Yes. My 17" TFT is supposed to draw 33W "typically" (whatefer that means), while CRTs can easily draw 100W and more. But TFTs may very well pollute and waste energy more during their manufacturing. (There's the issue with dead pixels, and hence scrap panels for one thing. Any real statistics on the proportion of rejected panels?) -- Tuomo --- End Message ---
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Seth Arnold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This makes it far easier for me to monitor > email and IRC (on the left display) while reading reference content (on > the right display). Swapping workspaces requires erasing the reference > content when bringing up the malleable content. Umm... why do you need to check on IRC an Email all the time? Perhaps not being able to concentrate on the work at hand is your problem? > Perhaps I've waited long enough to treat myself to a new display with all > the space I need. :) Nah, there's no too long time. I used my previous dislay (17" CRT) for about 7 years until it died, having been in its dying spasms for year (kicking and hitting helps with dying hardware!), and then got this TFT, using an ancient laptop as a serial terminal while the shop took two weeks to deliver it (even though they had it in stock). (At least in .fi, it's best to order TFTs online, BTW: the law dictates an unconditional 14 day right of return, so if there's a single dead pixels, just return it, no questions asked. Can't do that with IRL shops.) Anyway, unless something really remarkable happens (like 4800x3600 on 17"), I'm likely to use this display as well, until it dies. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Bruce Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (One of our concerns at work was heat from CRTs (perhaps bizarrely, > given that we're in south west London, but we really had been in an > office where heat was a significant problem, though we aren't, now).) [And speaking of heat and power consumption, the state of software suspend in Linux totally sucks, and yet it's one of the most important features I can think of. It sucks having to leave the computer on when you don't use it, because it's such a _chore_ to bring it and all the programs up again, especially as session management support sucks too (and there's no protocol it for terminal programs). The hardware suspend support of desktop mobos also tends to be poor, PSU fan still keeping humming and so on. (And I haven't heard of that good things of the Linux laptop support either.) That's one very good reason to use Windows: hibernate. Of course, even better would be if the computer could run on _really_ low power, shutting down all the fans, not using the disks except very infrequently, and so on, but still react to ssh connection attempts etc. ...). Well, at least with 'athcool' I managed to make the system run 10C cooler most of the time.] -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 07:34:03AM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote: > You don't need that much space. Your field of vision isn't that big at > a "working distance" (as opposed to "monitoring distance") from the > screens, so you could just as well switch a workspace as turn your head > to the other display. I quite like having my malleable content on one screen and my reference content on the other screen. This makes it far easier for me to monitor email and IRC (on the left display) while reading reference content (on the right display). Swapping workspaces requires erasing the reference content when bringing up the malleable content. This constant erasing and replacing content works against my innate ability to remember where content is on a page. When I had a single 1600x1200 display, I could fit reference content and malleable content on screen quite nicely. But it was fuzzy. So I tried 1280x1024 LCD and found myself swapping content enough that it detracted from my ability to get work done. So I bought a second LCD and have enjoyed the extra space. Perhaps I've waited long enough to treat myself to a new display with all the space I need. :) (Pity my video card can't do more than 1280x1024 DVI output. I _really_ don't want to be in the market for a new video card too. Blech.) > Like I say in the FAQ, the real reason for > multihead is penis enlargment most of the time. Perhaps. But some of us find it more useful for reading reference matieral while working on other stuff than advertising our qualities as mates. :) Honestly, expect better from your users. :) The argument for not supporting Xinerama that I can easily appreciate is what it does to your code. Saying "just don't use it" isn't nearly as compelling as "it fuglifies the code". pgp7noXrWpjyn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Xinerama support
Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > Well, there's the issue of bigger displays probably having more > rejects, but the widescreen display is about least half smaller than > a second display, Physically it'll be significantly smaller, but I'd guess the physical stuff (glass, plastic, PSU, etc.) aren't significant compared to the cost of the TFT. But I'm guessing. I wouldn't want to argue that nobody should choose a widescreen monitor rather than two squarer ones. Or a good quality CRT. All seem defensible choices, depending on what you have already, what space you have, whether you're worried about heat. (One of our concerns at work was heat from CRTs (perhaps bizarrely, given that we're in south west London, but we really had been in an office where heat was a significant problem, though we aren't, now).) [...]
Re: Xinerama support
Tuomo Valkonen said the following on 2007-01-22 11:13: > ...^Z works [g]reat.) It's truly amazing what you can fit into one monitor, isn't? One monitor Multiple virtual consoles (ick!) Multiple workspaces per console Multiple frames per workspace Multiple tabs with xterms per frame Multiple screens per xterm Multiple vims per screen Multiple tabs per vim Multiple windows per vim tab Who could possibly need one more "multiple" at the top of that tower? ;) -Steve (happy with one!) -- Steven N. Severinghaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://severinghaus.org/
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Bruce Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > but I imagine the costs (environmental and other) even out (physically > bigger screens probably don't cost much more than smaller ones; it > probably depends more on the number of pixels). Yeah, I'd suspect so. It probably isn't easy to produce displays with lots of tiny pixels, and there are bound to be more defects. Infact, I wonder if we'll go back to analogue tech, one day. If it would be possible to produce thin pixel-less displays somehow, working like plotters. I don't know how you'd do that, and it might not work for non-vector graphics, such as moving video, but... it's an interesting prospect anyway. Maybe nano-machines arranging themselves in instructed shapes... :) (Infact, the E-paper techs I am aware of are quite "mechanical", and I wonder if you could control the ink balls floating freely instead of suspended in pixels...) > Quite true, although I'm not so confident about the relative costs. Well, there's the issue of bigger displays probably having more rejects, but the widescreen display is about least half smaller than a second display, there isn't a second PSU with its lossess and costs, less casing, and so on. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > Actually, it's not so much about the size of the screen. I don't find > 19" 4:3 offers anything over 17" 4:3 at the same resolution, or even > a slightly bigger resolution (e.g. 1600x1200 vs. 1280x1024... which would > be more of an enhancement on a 17" screen than between 19" and 17", but not > much of enhancement in either case, as both resolutions are still so poor). Sure, by "size" I really mean in pixels. I'm constrained by company policy to use TFTs (we decided that for reasons which probably aren't so valid any more, so possibly I could argue against that), so that limits my choices. I'm disappointed I can't get the same kind of resolution on a desktop screen that is available on laptops, but I imagine the costs (environmental and other) even out (physically bigger screens probably don't cost much more than smaller ones; it probably depends more on the number of pixels). > It's more about the shape. There's horizontally a bit of space left in > the field of vision after a 4:3 screen, that a widescreen display should > fill. You can comfortably fit two A4 papers on a widescreen display, > wasting less resources than multihead, that normally will have a lot > of screen space outside your field of vision. Quite true, although I'm not so confident about the relative costs. Certainly I don't feel that much advantage in having two screens---a single one with a similar number of pixels would do just as well (especially with ion). I guess if ion regards my existing two screens as one big one that won't be too bad; it would be slightly annoying on the occasions where I want to make some application full-screen, though.
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Renee Klawitter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > That's true, but you do not have to search for the workspace. You can > put the apps you often have to look at (debugger/browser/manuals) on > one screen and your "working area" at the other one and do not have to > type in or cycle through app names ... Umm.. I just have the documentation and such stuff on one side of the screen, and the code on the other. Works great. One project per workspace. Debugger? What's that? fprintf is my debugger! (For the occasional 'gdb backtrace' I usually just use the same xterm running the editor, ^Z:ing back to the shell. The same I use for compiles. Although there would be space for a small compilation/debugging terminal/frame on the documentation side of the screen, I've never got used to switching there. ^Z works reat.) -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Thomas Themel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > Renee Klawitter ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 2007-01-22: >> Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> One question: How do you debug ion ? One tft two xservers ? > > Not sure whether that's how Tuomo does it, but that sounds like a job > for Xnest. Xnest is crap. Firstly, it's buggy and crashes all the time, or causes programs not to work. Secondly, bindings will overlap, and Xnest can't go into a grabbed mode where it would receive all the key presses, as far as I know. VmWare would work better than Xnest! But two servers on one TFT is what I use. How'd you even do anything like that with two servers on separate screens? Two keyboards and mice? What an unusable hack. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
Hi, Renee Klawitter ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 2007-01-22: > Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > One question: How do you debug ion ? One tft two xservers ? Not sure whether that's how Tuomo does it, but that sounds like a job for Xnest. ciao, -- [*Thomas Themel*] I'd say that making microchips, or collecting garbage [extended contact] for that matter, has much more "meaning" than "raising [info provided in] consciousness of ethnic heritage" and other such bullshit. [*message header*]- Anonymous poster on cypherpunks
Re: Xinerama support
Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > You don't need that much space. Your field of vision isn't that big at > a "working distance" (as opposed to "monitoring distance") from the > screens, so you could just as well switch a workspace as turn your head That's true, but you do not have to search for the workspace. You can put the apps you often have to look at (debugger/browser/manuals) on one screen and your "working area" at the other one and do not have to type in or cycle through app names ... > to the other display. Like I say in the FAQ, the real reason for > multihead is penis enlargment most of the time. Maybe so, but we could use gnome too, couldn't we. Is just not convenient enough ... One question: How do you debug ion ? One tft two xservers ? /Renee. -- For contacting me: klawitter(at)email(dot)de -- "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You can comfortably fit two A4 papers on a widescreen display, And should I remind of the floating splits of Ion? I also mostly just split the screen in half horizontally (Mod1+K S), and then float the halves (Mod1+M, float...) for e.g. the browser that unfortunately needs so much space on crappy Web pages, and for workspaces with LaTeX work. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Bruce Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So I use two monitors. Alternatives would be a bigger screen, and > that would work fine, I expect. Obviously printing things out, though > it's handy to have searchable things, and I routinely refer to quite a > lot of material. Or switching between workspaces, of course. It's > just that much more convenient just to have another monitor. Actually, it's not so much about the size of the screen. I don't find 19" 4:3 offers anything over 17" 4:3 at the same resolution, or even a slightly bigger resolution (e.g. 1600x1200 vs. 1280x1024... which would be more of an enhancement on a 17" screen than between 19" and 17", but not much of enhancement in either case, as both resolutions are still so poor). It's more about the shape. There's horizontally a bit of space left in the field of vision after a 4:3 screen, that a widescreen display should fill. You can comfortably fit two A4 papers on a widescreen display, wasting less resources than multihead, that normally will have a lot of screen space outside your field of vision. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
Today Bruce Stephens wrote: What we're doing (well, what I'm doing, most of the time) is no different to having something printed out for reference while I'm working. A friend of mine uses two monitor to have at the same time her emacs and a high definition preview of her documents when LaTeXing her articles (she rotates one of her monitors to have a Portrait preview of the page). As far as I'm concerned, I prefer splitting my screen in half. I don't know whether we can talk about penis enlargement for her ;) but, although there is definitely some show off in this setting, I can understand it might be convenient. Cheers, Arnaud
Re: Xinerama support
Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > You don't need that much space. Your field of vision isn't that big > at a "working distance" (as opposed to "monitoring distance") from > the screens, so you could just as well switch a workspace as turn > your head to the other display. Like I say in the FAQ, the real > reason for multihead is penis enlargment most of the time. What we're doing (well, what I'm doing, most of the time) is no different to having something printed out for reference while I'm working. In some cases the reference is some sane reflowable format, so there'd be no difficulty in fitting everything on one (normal-sized) screen. But often, it's PDF, which (I find, anyway) doesn't fit readably on a 1280x1024 screen concurrently with an editor. Same seems true of quite a bit of web-based documentation. So I use two monitors. Alternatives would be a bigger screen, and that would work fine, I expect. Obviously printing things out, though it's handy to have searchable things, and I routinely refer to quite a lot of material. Or switching between workspaces, of course. It's just that much more convenient just to have another monitor. [...]
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-22, Seth Arnold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sometimes it is more economical to purchase two lower-resolution devices > than one high-resolution device -- at least, that was the case five years > ago when I changed from a 1600x1200 fuzzy CRT to two 1280x1024 LCDs. I > didn't want to give up the screen space, but a 1600x1200 LCD was simply > not in my budget at the time. You don't need that much space. Your field of vision isn't that big at a "working distance" (as opposed to "monitoring distance") from the screens, so you could just as well switch a workspace as turn your head to the other display. Like I say in the FAQ, the real reason for multihead is penis enlargment most of the time. > (I'd even bet money that my two LCDs draw > less power than that crummy old CRT. :) Yes. My 17" TFT is supposed to draw 33W "typically" (whatefer that means), while CRTs can easily draw 100W and more. But TFTs may very well pollute and waste energy more during their manufacturing. (There's the issue with dead pixels, and hence scrap panels for one thing. Any real statistics on the proportion of rejected panels?) -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On Sun, Jan 21, 2007 at 06:36:52PM +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote: > On 2007-01-21, Ulrich Pfeifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You are saying it *should* be easy, but it currently is not - right? > Yep. I don't really need my windows to span both displays. I'm perfectly fine with windows being confined entirely on one screen or the other. But I do like moving windows between the two screens occasionally. (Only when starting a new application, and it comes up on the 'wrong' display. Because I can easily move windows, I've never figured out the winprops support. Would winprops work for the 'standard X multihead'?) > Or forget multihead. It's stupid anyway. Sometimes it is more economical to purchase two lower-resolution devices than one high-resolution device -- at least, that was the case five years ago when I changed from a 1600x1200 fuzzy CRT to two 1280x1024 LCDs. I didn't want to give up the screen space, but a 1600x1200 LCD was simply not in my budget at the time. (I'd even bet money that my two LCDs draw less power than that crummy old CRT. :) In any event, thanks for the fine window manager. I hope to be able to adapt my work habits to fit the new version at some point in the future. :) Thanks pgpmoHifcksTf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Xinerama support
On 21/01/07, Ulrich Pfeifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello, t> Or forget multihead. It's stupid anyway. it serves me very well and I will stick with the latest development snapshot for the next years I guess. I don't think I have the knowledge to implement the module you sketched. Ulrich I agree - I'll also be sticking to the last snapshot with support for multiple monitors and migrating windows between them (whatever that is called in X terms) until someone re-adds support. I simply need the space. It is a pity, but I have no feel for coding graphical environments (always get my X's and Y's wrong :) so I'll probably be forced to abandon ion before to long. -- Jarrod
Re: Xinerama support
Hello, t> Or forget multihead. It's stupid anyway. it serves me very well and I will stick with the latest development snapshot for the next years I guess. I don't think I have the knowledge to implement the module you sketched. Ulrich
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-21, Renee Klawitter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What do you mean by artificially ? Sounds to me as if this could > easily be changed ... ? X doesn't allow "reparenting" windows from one root window to another. There's no fundamental technical reason why it shouldn't be possible when both root windows have the same bit depths (and hence the same X "Visuals"). There doesn't seem to be anything in the Xlib API that would prevent that either. Some X server implementations and Xlib internals might need some updating, and some crappy programs might also get confused by allowing this, but issues are not insurmountable, and the only real reason why it "can't" be done is, is some hallowed specification saying so. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-21, Ulrich Pfeifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You are saying it *should* be easy, but it currently is not - right? Yep. > So I either stay with the current ion version or implement the module > you proposed - right? Or forget multihead. It's stupid anyway. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
Hello Tuomo, still not sure ... t> I'm saying that you don't need root windows spanning multiple physical t> screens. Plain old X multihead with completely separate screens is t> quite sufficient But I cannot move applications from the one head I don't see any more when I leave the office easily to the other head - right? You are saying it *should* be easy, but it currently is not - right? So I either stay with the current ion version or implement the module you proposed - right? Ulrich Pfeifer
Re: Xinerama support
Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > of Xinerama. Especially if the migration of sub-windows from one > root window to another wasn't artificially restricted, as it What do you mean by artificially ? Sounds to me as if this could easily be changed ... ? /Renee. -- For contacting me: klawitter(at)email(dot)de -- "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless
Re: Xinerama support
On 2007-01-21, Ulrich Pfeifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Are you saying I do not need Xinerama to achieve this or are you > saying that I need to implement that module if I ever want to upgrade > ion? I'm saying that you don't need root windows spanning multiple physical screens. Plain old X multihead with completely separate screens is quite sufficient, and better than the ugly big-ass root window hack of Xinerama. Especially if the migration of sub-windows from one root window to another wasn't artificially restricted, as it presently is. But a single screen is also very sufficient for 99.99% of users. -- Tuomo
Re: Xinerama support
Hi, Today Ulrich Pfeifer wrote: In my setup I do have a laptop and an external LCD with a different resolution when I am in the office. I currently fold my applications from the monitor to the laptop screen when I leave the office. As far I'm concerned, I also have a laptop and an external LCD with a different resolution. I'd thought about a setting like yours but I finally found out it wasn't really convenient (mainly because I did not really make use of the laptop monitor). What I do now is simply cloning the externel LCD to my laptop (thus some parts are not displayed on the laptop) and when I go home, I just unplug the externel monitor, use xrandr and restart ion (with ioncore.restart). It works great. OK, I have an nvidia card and I use the twinview extension to clone the external display but I don't think this is actually needed. And anyway, ion (3ds-20061223) works perfectly fine with it. Cheers, Arnaud
Re: Xinerama support
Hello Tuomo, Tuomo> You either don't really need the information, or you'd Tuomo> simply want plain old X multihead with window migration Tuomo> between screens, something that is only _artificially_ Tuomo> restricted when the bit depths are the same. I don't know enough about X to fully understand your mail. In my setup I do have a laptop and an external LCD with a different resolution when I am in the office. I currently fold my applications from the monitor to the laptop screen when I leave the office. Are you saying I do not need Xinerama to achieve this or are you saying that I need to implement that module if I ever want to upgrade ion? Thanks, Ulrich -- Xinerama configuration: -- Screen "Screen0" -- Screen "Screen1" LeftOf "Screen0" function go_home () local right_screen = ioncore.find_screen_id(0) local left_screen = ioncore.find_screen_id(1) for _, r in pairs(left_screen:managed_list()) do right_screen:attach(r) end end function to_other_screen (r) local left_screen = ioncore.find_screen_id(1) local right_screen = ioncore.find_screen_id(0) local ws = ioncore.find_manager(r, "WGroupWS") local sc = ioncore.find_manager(ws, "WScreen") if sc == left_screen then right_screen:attach(ws) else left_screen:attach(ws) end end
Re: Xinerama support
I should perhaps add that even with a mod_xinerama and _any_ reasonable effort, Xinerama will still have serious problems, at least with programs that try to position their own floating windows, and possibly also ones that use crappy methods to look up windows. The former simply is not doable without updates to the ICCCM to be aware of nested WM window configurations. Currently the ICCCM does not specify how applications should handle multiple levels of WM windows, but also does not disallow it. So one app handles that one way, and another the other way. It is not reasonable to not have the confusing "virtual root windows" for each physical screen if you want the workspaces on each screen to be separate for floating windows, the windows that this problem mostly affects. And if you don't want them to be separate, you don't really need Xinerama support. Configurations with screens of totally differing sizes appearing as one are absolutely stupid (but so is multihead in general, most of the time). Hence, Xinerama is a mostly useless piece of crap of an extension. You either don't really need the information, or you'd simply want plain old X multihead with window migration between screens, something that is only _artificially_ restricted when the bit depths are the same. But the general trend among the X folks is to write crappy mutually incompatible extensions for everything, instead of extending the X protocols. (There's _no_ need for Xrender, Xft and that shit. It would've been sufficient to add extra transparency and blurring bits for programs to set when they can cope with that stuff, and use the old stuff.) -- Tuomo
