Re: so, what now?

2010-04-07 Thread Benjamin R. Haskell
On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:

 On Tue, 2010-04-06 at 16:29 -0400, Benjamin R. Haskell wrote:
  On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:
  
   On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 23:43 -0400, Timandahaf wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:
 now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection 
 with ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now?

First, thanks for starting this thread! I did notice that Tuomov's 
pages were down, but since his whole site was down, I was waiting 
for it to come back without realizing he might have taken the whole 
project down.  Quick question: do we know for sure Tuomov has 
severed connections with ion3 permanently or is this our best guess 
at this point?
   
   It's a pretty solid guess...
  
  Tuomo responded to an email on this list on March 22.  Maybe he's just 
  on vacation.   He's complained often about the lack of good, simple web 
  hosting.
 
 Tuomo's website 404'd, the rest of the (host) website and all the other
 accounts look pretty fine to me, doesn't seem like a problem with the
 host at all (although it's still possible).

Bad choice of words on my part: by 'web hosting', I didn't mean the 
server -- I meant the software, e.g.:

http://www.mail-archive.com/ion-general@lists.berlios.de/msg03126.html
Ikiwiki replacement etc. - Tuomo Valkonen

I will have to replace Ikiwiki as the Ion site generator, since it fails 
to work under Cygwin. [...]



   Seems slightly hasty to not wait to hear from the man himself that 
   the project is abandoned-abandoned (as opposed to I've switched 
   to Windows, and don't plan to support this).
 
 i believe forking was already on a lot of people's minds for some time 
 now (as somebody else mentioned), the fact that the website is no 
 longer available merely served as a motivation.

Yep.  Seems reasonable, despite Fake Tuomo's proclamations (ha).


ion3 has been my primary environment for a while now, and I 
won't consider changing. I love its design, philosophy, and 
simplicity, but I'm preaching to the choir here.

I'm all for forking into /one/ fork, and that too only because 
of the licensing issue--please lets not make multiple messy 
forks. Like a few of you, I don't have much time either right 
now, but expect to be able to contribute a more a few months 
down the line. But I can contribute towards getting us going 
right now if needed.
  
  Personally, I don't understand everyone's reluctance to even 
  consider changing.
 
 not true, i suggest you dig deeper into this thread...

You're right of course.  s/everyone's/some people's/


  Ion's great 'n all, but without extremely committed 
  leadership, there doesn't seem to be much point to forking.  (Either it 
  will remain the useful tool it is and only get bugfixes, or it'll bitrot 
  completely.)  Why not branch out and get other similar-minded window 
  managers (under active development) to incorporate some of what you love 
  about ion?
 
 now why didn't 'we' think of that?

Not sure if that's sarcastic.  Doesn't make sense if it is.  My point 
was that moving on might be more fruitful than treading water.


 i believe anybody who could have left has already done so. so...

Touché.

Guess I'll go back to lurking.  (I'm only still here for the occasional 
Tuomo rant.)


  Guessing that won't be a popular sentiment, but whatever.  Not 
  trying to completely discourage anyone -- just adding my $.02.
  
 
 we're ion users, we are used to unpopular sentiments; we should get a 
 prise or something.

Also a good point.

As before, best of luck.

-- 
Ben

Re: so, what now?

2010-04-07 Thread Tuomo Valkonen
On 2010-04-06 18:10 -0400, Benjamin R. Haskell wrote:
 Guess I'll go back to lurking.  (I'm only still here for the occasional 
 Tuomo rant.)

I use Windows. I have only been in Finland three months during
the last year. I'm running out of material.

(Although I could rant about software bloat and ever diminishing
laptop screen heights, etc., which make it impossible to work
around bloatware the brute force way of adding ever more hardware.
But I can't be arsed. Oh, how fscking difficult it's to buy 
a summer jacket these days: almost everything is full of plastic.
I hate plastic noise. I hate plastic against skin.)

-- 
Tuomo


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-07 Thread Adam Duck

On 07.04.2010 15:45, Samer Abdallah wrote:

I thought cation would good - somebody suggested it earlier I think.
A cation is a positive ion for happy smiley people. All the grumps can
start their own fork and call it 'anion'.

Samer.
   


I like this idea!  We could name the nightly builds caution, too :).
+1!


On 5 Apr 2010, at 14:23, M Rawash wrote:

   

On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:48 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
 

If I can suggest a name for an ion3 fork, how about notion :-)
   

people won't be sure how to pronounce it (notion/not-ion), prefect.

wow, caught fire a little early than i thought we would. +1


M Rawash

 
   




Re: so, what now?

2010-04-07 Thread Eider Oliveira
+1 for cation

Eider Oliveira

Site: http://www.eider.blog.br
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eider/




On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Adam Duck adam.ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 07.04.2010 15:45, Samer Abdallah wrote:

 I thought cation would good - somebody suggested it earlier I think.
 A cation is a positive ion for happy smiley people. All the grumps can
 start their own fork and call it 'anion'.

 Samer.



 I like this idea!  We could name the nightly builds caution, too :).
 +1!


  On 5 Apr 2010, at 14:23, M Rawash wrote:



 On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:48 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:


 If I can suggest a name for an ion3 fork, how about notion :-)


 people won't be sure how to pronounce it (notion/not-ion), prefect.

 wow, caught fire a little early than i thought we would. +1


 M Rawash









Re: so, what now?

2010-04-07 Thread Alexander Rink
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 01:51:53 +0200
M Rawash mraw...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 23:43 -0400, Timandahaf wrote:
  - We need a central place to get ourselves organized and store code. I
 nominate sourceforge (well established, well known, supports git).
 I've speculatively created a new 'notion' project (we can change name,
 details, or even the site later):
  
 http://notion.sourceforge.net/
 
 I've created a sourceforge account, please add me as a team member (with
 some powers): https://sourceforge.net/users/mrawash

Please add me too: https://sourceforge.net/users/fr31g31st

-- 
Alexander Rink a.r...@gmx.net


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Sergej Pupykin



great, please upload libextl and libtu (see attachment), because we need
them to build ion3plus, i'll be making new archlinux PKGBUILDs soon.

http://archlinux-stuff.googlecode.com/files/libtu-3.tar.bz2

http://archlinux-stuff.googlecode.com/files/libextl-3.tar.bz2



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Timandahaf

On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:

now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection with
ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now?


First, thanks for starting this thread! I did notice that Tuomov's pages
were down, but since his whole site was down, I was waiting for it to
come back without realizing he might have taken the whole project down.
Quick question: do we know for sure Tuomov has severed connections with
ion3 permanently or is this our best guess at this point?

ion3 has been my primary environment for a while now, and I won't
consider changing. I love its design, philosophy, and simplicity, but
I'm preaching to the choir here.

I'm all for forking into /one/ fork, and that too only because of the
licensing issue--please lets not make multiple messy forks. Like a few
of you, I don't have much time either right now, but expect to be able
to contribute a more a few months down the line. But I can contribute
towards getting us going right now if needed.

We have at least a few tasks to accomplish ASAP just so we don't lose
continuity or momentum (please suggest other things that need to be done
too):

- We need a new name and so far, I personally like both notion (my top
  favorite) and neon. Do we have any other nominations? Note that we
  can always change the name later. It's good to get moving on things
  even based on a temporary name if we can't reach consensus.

- We need to get the codebase including the latest set of sources (easy,
  many of us have this), and also as much of the associated git repos as
  we can.

- We need a central place to get ourselves organized and store code. I
  nominate sourceforge (well established, well known, supports git).
  I've speculatively created a new 'notion' project (we can change name,
  details, or even the site later):

  http://notion.sourceforge.net/

- We need 2 or 3 managers and/or lead devlopers. IMHO, managers do not
  /necessarily/ need to have in-depth code knowledge, and lead
  developers do not need to necessarily manage, though this can all be
  the same person. Any volunteers?




Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Timandahaf
 On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:
 now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection with
 ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now?

First, thanks for starting this thread! I did notice that Tuomov's pages
were down, but since his whole site was down, I was waiting for it to
come back without realizing he might have taken the whole project down.
Quick question: do we know for sure Tuomov has severed connections with
ion3 permanently or is this our best guess at this point?

ion3 has been my primary environment for a while now, and I won't
consider changing. I love its design, philosophy, and simplicity, but
I'm preaching to the choir here.

I'm all for forking into /one/ fork, and that too only because of the
licensing issue--please lets not make multiple messy forks. Like a few
of you, I don't have much time either right now, but expect to be able
to contribute a more a few months down the line. But I can contribute
towards getting us going right now if needed.

We have at least a few tasks to accomplish ASAP just so we don't lose
continuity or momentum (please suggest other things that need to be done
too):

- We need a new name and so far, I personally like both notion (my top
  favorite) and neon. Do we have any other nominations? Note that we
  can always change the name later. It's good to get moving on things
  even based on a temporary name if we can't reach consensus.

- We need to get the codebase including the latest set of sources (easy,
  many of us have this), and also as much of the associated git repos as
  we can.

- We need a central place to get ourselves organized and store code. I
  nominate sourceforge (well established, well known, supports git).
  I've speculatively created a new 'notion' project (we can change
  name, details, or even the site later):

  http://notion.sourceforge.net/

- We need 2 or 3 managers and/or lead devlopers. IMHO, managers do
  not /necessarily/ need to have in-depth code knowledge, and
  lead developers do not need to necessarily manage, though this can all
  be the same person. Any volunteers?


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread M Rawash
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 10:31 +0200, M Rawash wrote:
 here's the archived version of ion's website if anybody is interested:
 http://web.archive.org/web/20080516110658/http://modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~tuomov/ion/
 
 
 i'm also interested in getting all the ion3-related code out there, can
 somebody help? here's the list of all of tuomo's repos as they stood in
 Jan 2007:
 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ywt5AFIyKuUJ:www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/repos/+www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/reposcd=1hl=enct=clnkie=UTF-8
 
 i already have ion-3plus, ion-doc-3, ion-scripts-3, libextl-3 and
 libtu-3, and i'll probably be uploading them to git a repo soon. i'd
 like to get mod_ionflux-3, mod_xrandr-3 (especially the former)

all repos are uploaded here (with the exception of 'mod_xrandr-3', which
was obsolete, AFAIK): http://github.com/gwash

libextl-3 and libtu-3 are missing their makefiles for some reason (you
can still get them from ion-3 stable).

M Rawash



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Aron Griffis
M Rawash wrote:  [Mon Apr 05 2010, 09:35:12AM EDT]
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:49 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
 I think it would be appropriate to establish a new mailing list
 ASAP instead of discussing the details of a fork here.

I agree, but shouldn't we decide on a name and a project leader before
that move, or are you thinking of something more temporary?

I was just concerned that it might be disrespectful to discuss on
this list modifications that are anathema to Tuomo's wishes.
However I agree that choosing a name, at least, is pretty
important to setting up a new mailing list... :-)


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Aron Griffis

Timandahaf wrote:  [Mon Apr 05 2010, 11:43:56PM EDT]

First, thanks for starting this thread! I did notice that Tuomov's pages
were down, but since his whole site was down, I was waiting for it to
come back without realizing he might have taken the whole project down.
Quick question: do we know for sure Tuomov has severed connections with
ion3 permanently or is this our best guess at this point?


While I have great appreciation for Tuomo's work, I don't think
the answer to this question matters to me personally. I am hoping
this fork will succeed because I want to pursue functionality
that has so far been blocked (xinerama, xrandr, xft,
iconization, EWMH, built-in support for idiosynchratic
applications, etc).


ion3 has been my primary environment for a while now, and I won't
consider changing. I love its design, philosophy, and simplicity, but
I'm preaching to the choir here.


:-)


I'm all for forking into /one/ fork, and that too only because of the
licensing issue--please lets not make multiple messy forks. Like a few
of you, I don't have much time either right now, but expect to be able
to contribute a more a few months down the line. But I can contribute
towards getting us going right now if needed.


This is the same position I am in.


We have at least a few tasks to accomplish ASAP just so we don't lose
continuity or momentum (please suggest other things that need to be done
too):

- We need a new name and so far, I personally like both notion (my top
 favorite) and neon. Do we have any other nominations? Note that we
 can always change the name later. It's good to get moving on things
 even based on a temporary name if we can't reach consensus.


I've liked a number of suggestions, including particleman, but
notion remains my first choice.


- We need to get the codebase including the latest set of sources (easy,
 many of us have this), and also as much of the associated git repos as
 we can.


I think we should put the current source as-is in a repo, then do
a massive s/ion3/newname/ and modify the top-level documentation
to mention our debt to Tuomo and the heritage of the project,
while pointing users away from Tuomo and to a new bug tracker and
mailing list.

In other words I think the pristine source should be the first
commit to the repo, so even the initial modifications (including
the name change) are recorded.

We should plan to make a first release within a couple months,
containing the simple combination of renamed-ion3 with the
existing out-of-tree modules we collect. Releasing early before
going into more serious development should help us gain momentum
quickly.


- We need a central place to get ourselves organized and store code. I
 nominate sourceforge (well established, well known, supports git).
 I've speculatively created a new 'notion' project (we can change name,
 details, or even the site later):

 http://notion.sourceforge.net/


Looks good, thanks!


- We need 2 or 3 managers and/or lead devlopers. IMHO, managers do not
 /necessarily/ need to have in-depth code knowledge, and lead
 developers do not need to necessarily manage, though this can all be
 the same person. Any volunteers?


I will be happy to contribute on both fronts after a couple
weeks. Right now I'm in crunch mode toward releasing a product at
work so I won't be able to immediately commit any substantial
time toward notion.

Regards,
Aron


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Benjamin R. Haskell
On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:

 On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 23:43 -0400, Timandahaf wrote:
  On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:
   now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection 
   with ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now?
  
  First, thanks for starting this thread! I did notice that Tuomov's 
  pages were down, but since his whole site was down, I was waiting 
  for it to come back without realizing he might have taken the whole 
  project down.  Quick question: do we know for sure Tuomov has 
  severed connections with ion3 permanently or is this our best guess 
  at this point?
 
 It's a pretty solid guess...

Tuomo responded to an email on this list on March 22.  Maybe he's just 
on vacation.   He's complained often about the lack of good, simple web 
hosting.  Seems slightly hasty to not wait to hear from the man himself 
that the project is abandoned-abandoned (as opposed to I've switched 
to Windows, and don't plan to support this).


  ion3 has been my primary environment for a while now, and I won't 
  consider changing. I love its design, philosophy, and simplicity, 
  but I'm preaching to the choir here.
  
  I'm all for forking into /one/ fork, and that too only because of 
  the licensing issue--please lets not make multiple messy forks. Like 
  a few of you, I don't have much time either right now, but expect to 
  be able to contribute a more a few months down the line. But I can 
  contribute towards getting us going right now if needed.

Personally, I don't understand everyone's reluctance to even consider 
changing.  Ion's great 'n all, but without extremely committed 
leadership, there doesn't seem to be much point to forking.  (Either it 
will remain the useful tool it is and only get bugfixes, or it'll bitrot 
completely.)  Why not branch out and get other similar-minded window 
managers (under active development) to incorporate some of what you love 
about ion?

Guessing that won't be a popular sentiment, but whatever.  Not trying to 
completely discourage anyone -- just adding my $.02.


 notion seems to get the most support amongst those who posted so 
 far...

My favorite, too.

Good luck to anyone willing to commit the time it's gonna take.

-- 
Best,
Ben


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread M Rawash
On Tue, 2010-04-06 at 16:34 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
 M Rawash wrote:  [Tue Apr 06 2010, 01:37:02PM EDT]
 done, http://github.com/gwash
 
 fwiw I think development going forward would be easier if most of
 that stuff was organized into a single repo. I believe in the
 value of logical separation, but having lots of repos isn't
 necessary to achieve that, it just makes life harder with
 multiple simultaneous releases. Consider that libtu and libextl
 exist solely for ion3...

i agree, and these are just backups of the old darcs repos, no future
development or branching is meant to take place there.



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread M Rawash
On Tue, 2010-04-06 at 16:29 -0400, Benjamin R. Haskell wrote:
 On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:
 
  On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 23:43 -0400, Timandahaf wrote:
   On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, M Rawash wrote:
now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection 
with ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now?
   
   First, thanks for starting this thread! I did notice that Tuomov's 
   pages were down, but since his whole site was down, I was waiting 
   for it to come back without realizing he might have taken the whole 
   project down.  Quick question: do we know for sure Tuomov has 
   severed connections with ion3 permanently or is this our best guess 
   at this point?
  
  It's a pretty solid guess...
 
 Tuomo responded to an email on this list on March 22.  Maybe he's just 
 on vacation.   He's complained often about the lack of good, simple web 
 hosting.

Tuomo's website 404'd, the rest of the (host) website and all the other
accounts look pretty fine to me, doesn't seem like a problem with the
host at all (although it's still possible).

  Seems slightly hasty to not wait to hear from the man himself 
 that the project is abandoned-abandoned (as opposed to I've switched 
 to Windows, and don't plan to support this).

i believe forking was already on a lot of people's minds for some time
now (as somebody else mentioned), the fact that the website is no longer
available merely served as a motivation.

   ion3 has been my primary environment for a while now, and I won't 
   consider changing. I love its design, philosophy, and simplicity, 
   but I'm preaching to the choir here.
   
   I'm all for forking into /one/ fork, and that too only because of 
   the licensing issue--please lets not make multiple messy forks. Like 
   a few of you, I don't have much time either right now, but expect to 
   be able to contribute a more a few months down the line. But I can 
   contribute towards getting us going right now if needed.
 
 Personally, I don't understand everyone's reluctance to even consider 
 changing.

not true, i suggest you dig deeper into this thread...

 Ion's great 'n all, but without extremely committed 
 leadership, there doesn't seem to be much point to forking.  (Either it 
 will remain the useful tool it is and only get bugfixes, or it'll bitrot 
 completely.)  Why not branch out and get other similar-minded window 
 managers (under active development) to incorporate some of what you love 
 about ion?

now why didn't 'we' think of that?

i believe anybody who could have left has already done so. so...


 Guessing that won't be a popular sentiment, but whatever.  Not trying to 
 completely discourage anyone -- just adding my $.02.
 

we're ion users, we are used to unpopular sentiments; we should get a
prise or something.





Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread M Rawash
On Tue, 2010-04-06 at 16:15 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote: 
 M Rawash wrote:  [Mon Apr 05 2010, 09:35:12AM EDT]
 On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:49 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
  I think it would be appropriate to establish a new mailing list
  ASAP instead of discussing the details of a fork here.
 
 I agree, but shouldn't we decide on a name and a project leader before
 that move, or are you thinking of something more temporary?
 
 I was just concerned that it might be disrespectful to discuss on
 this list modifications that are anathema to Tuomo's wishes.
 However I agree that choosing a name, at least, is pretty
 important to setting up a new mailing list... :-)

true, that's why i think it's best if we left the development discussion
for a later session, right now we should focus on organisation and
getting something tangible up and running.

M Rawash 



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Henri Salo
On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 23:39:48 +0200
M Rawash mraw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Tuomo's website 404'd, the rest of the (host) website and all the
 other accounts look pretty fine to me, doesn't seem like a problem
 with the host at all (although it's still possible).

The hosting is from club for computer science stundents so it might
be possible that for some reason Tuomo is changing hosting, but I would
like to hear the answer from himself.

---
Henri Salo


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Albert Shih
 Le 05/04/2010 à 15:05:53+0200, Klaus Umbach a écrit
 
 Unfortunatelly I can't call myself a programmer (I do speak a little
 Python, but not enough to even know where to start to write a
 windowmanager). But I would happily contribute to such a project with
 webspace, git/subversion, wiki, mail and other infrastructure, if one
 doesn't want to use something like sourceforge or github.
 

I'm in the same situation. I use ion3 every day, but I'm not a programmer

But I would happily contribute too. 

If you need any help and If I can contribute ask me. 

Regards.

JAS
-- 
Albert SHIH
SIO batiment 15
Observatoire de Paris Meudon
5 Place Jules Janssen
92195 Meudon Cedex
Téléphone : 01 45 07 76 26/06 86 69 95 71
Heure local/Local time:
Mer 7 avr 2010 01:07:22 CEST


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread Albert Shih
 Le 05/04/2010 à 00:54:31+0200, M Rawash a écrit

 Hi. 

 now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection with
 ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now? 
 
 I spent the last few days committedly trying out other WMs, and i can
 say this with absolute certainty: there's nothing out there that's even
 comparable! (the closest thing i could find, in terms of
 what-you-can-do, was 'awesome', but it subscribes to a very different
 philosophy than ion's, and is kind of a mess)
 
 so, I need to hear some ideas about the future of this project (not
 simply suggestions for other WM's; i will NOT switch to anything that's
 currently on the market, and that's my final decision!), I do have a few

I'm totally agree with you. 

I'm using FreeBSD and when Tuomov tell FreeBSD team to remove the ion3
ports (package system under FreeBSD) i'm trying many other WM. And my
conclusion is : At this moment all other WM ... sucks.

Regards.

JAS
-- 
Albert SHIH
SIO batiment 15
Observatoire de Paris Meudon
5 Place Jules Janssen
92195 Meudon Cedex
Téléphone : 01 45 07 76 26/06 86 69 95 71
Heure local/Local time:
Mer 7 avr 2010 00:59:51 CEST


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-06 Thread M Rawash
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 23:43 -0400, Timandahaf wrote:
 - We need a central place to get ourselves organized and store code. I
nominate sourceforge (well established, well known, supports git).
I've speculatively created a new 'notion' project (we can change name,
details, or even the site later):
 
http://notion.sourceforge.net/

I've created a sourceforge account, please add me as a team member (with
some powers): https://sourceforge.net/users/mrawash



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Ben Hutchings
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 03:52 +0400, Mikle Krutov wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 12:54:31AM +0200, M Rawash wrote:
  now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection with
  ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now? 
  
  I spent the last few days committedly trying out other WMs, and i can
  say this with absolute certainty: there's nothing out there that's even
  comparable! (the closest thing i could find, in terms of
  what-you-can-do, was 'awesome', but it subscribes to a very different
  philosophy than ion's, and is kind of a mess)
  
  so, I need to hear some ideas about the future of this project (not
  simply suggestions for other WM's; i will NOT switch to anything that's
  currently on the market, and that's my final decision!), I do have a few
  ideas of my own, but i want to know what everybody else thinks; after
  all, I'm just new-comer compared to the majority of the remaining users
  here (been using Ion for only a few months now), I don't know anything
  about the community (or what's left of it), how it works, or how the
  author's actions affected it. so i think it's best of somebody else took
  the initiative and got this conversation going...
 Firstly, why not to fork ion3 to add needed functionality? (i do not
 know is there any 'no forks' etc in it's license because the ion3's
 page is down)

The last version of the licence can be seen at:

http://git.decadent.org.uk/gitweb?p=ion3.git;a=blob;f=LICENSE;h=fdfa652c68cd5d06ec2383e7ea4429e6dc5cb4d0;hb=e3aec18706513a87eaa7839dfdaf7e0fcd0d8d2a

You can fork it but then you must rename it.  Tuomo said in the past
that this included functional use of the name 'Ion' such as in the
installation directories.  This restriction was introduced in the
copyright licence of ion-3rc-20070506; if you fork an earlier version
then you should only have to consider trademark rights.

 Secondly, there was some project like 'ion3 with scripts in python but
 without tuomo', unfortunately i can not give you it's name or link to
 it. It was dead when i lurked about it, but it has no licensing
 problems - so you can just fork it and write the code you need. 
[...]

Qtile?  wmii?

There's a long list of tiling window managers at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_window_manager#List_of_tiling_window_managers_for_X.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Once a job is fouled up, anything done to improve it makes it worse.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread M Rawash
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 03:52 +0400, Mikle Krutov wrote: 
 Firstly, why not to fork ion3 to add needed functionality? (i do not
 know is there any 'no forks' etc in it's license because the ion3's
 page is down)

I don't think there are any restrictions on forking ion3 (as long as
we're not using the Ion3(tm) name, and adhering to the LGPLv2 licence,
see attachment), actually, I'm surprised there isn't dozens of Ion forks
out there, considering its flexibility, design and the amount of new
concepts it introduced.

 Secondly, there was some project like 'ion3 with scripts in python but
 without tuomo', unfortunately i can not give you it's name or link to
 it. It was dead when i lurked about it, but it has no licensing
 problems - so you can just fork it and write the code you need.


well, python is pretty taxing resources-wise, compared to lua, so i
don't see this is a viable alternative to ion, and as i said there
really isn't a problem with forking ion to begin with.

 Also, i know that xmonad or stumpwm could both be a good alternative
 for the static-frames-with-tabs wm behavior, first only after huge
 code-writing using the existing modules (XMonad.Tabs), and second
 pretty out-of-box - only one thing bothers me - for both of them i
 need to learn completely unknowm programming languages - so i'm stick
 with ion, too. And both of them lack for scratchpad-like function,
 while i'm using it.
 
xmonad needs a haskell compiler with an install size of 680MB+, that's
NOT lightwight! haskell is not Java, there simply isn't that good a
justification for wasting so much space. as for stumpwm, i remember
trying it some time back, i also remember crashing it far too many times
before finally giving up, it just wasn't stable enough for me... 
 
 But i do not see any argument why i should ever bother finding
 alternative to ion, e.g. - it has all the functions i need,
 out-of-the-box or with plugins, it is stable, it builds with current
 x-libraries, etc.


that's pretty much why i'm sticking with ion too.



M Rawash

Copyright (c) Tuomo Valkonen 1999-2009.

Unless otherwise indicated in components taken from elsewhere, this software
is licensed under the GNU Lesser General Public License, version 2.1 (LGPL,
reproduced below), extended and modified with the following terms:

  If the name Ion(tm) or other names that can be associated with the Ion
  project are used to distribute this software, then:

- A version that does not significantly differ from one of the
  copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default.

- Versions not based on the copyright holder's latest release (on 
  the corresponding branch, such as Ion3(tm)), must within 28 days
  of this release, be prominently marked as (potentially) obsolete
  and unsupported.

- Significantly altered versions may be provided only if the user
  explicitly requests for those modifications to be applied, and 
  is prominently notified that the software is no longer considered 
  the standard version, and is not supported by the copyright holder.
  The version string displayed by the program must describe these
  modifications and the support void status.

  Versions for which the above conditions are not satisfied, must be
  renamed so that they can not be associated with the Ion project, their
  executables must be given names that do not conflict with the copyright
  holder's version, and neither the copyright holder nor the Ion project
  may be referred to for support.

  In the text of sections 0-2, 4-12, and 14-16 of the LGPL, this License 
  is to be understood to refer to the LGPL extended with these terms and,
  where applicable, possible similar terms related to the names of other
  works forming a whole. Sections 3 and 13 of the LGPL are void. Where
  contradictory, these additional terms take precedence over the LGPL.

End of terms.


Explanations

Trademarks: With the terms above primarily appealing to copyright law,
should any of the indicated trademarks be found invalid, does not excuse
you from the conditions imposed by those terms. The use of these names
in contexts other than redistribution of this software and modifications,
is outside the scope of the terms above, and governed by applicable
trademark or other laws. 

  With regard to modules and other extensions to Ion(tm), the permission
  is hereby granted to use Ion as part of the name, provided that it
  occurs in a form suggesting that the work is supported by neither the
  copyright holder nor the Ion project: Foo for Ion instead of Ion Foo,
  etc.

Significant change: Bug fixes are insignificant as additions. Basic changes
that are needed to install or run the software on a target platform, are 
insignificant. Additionally, basic/small configuration changes to better 
integrate the software with the target platform, without obstructing the
standard behaviour, are insignificant. Everything else is significant, 
unless expressly 

Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread M Rawash
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 06:26 +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
 
 Qtile?  wmii?
 
 There's a long list of tiling window managers at
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_window_manager#List_of_tiling_window_managers_for_X.

I think we're all aware that there are other tiling WMs, but that's not
the point; i made it clear in my first post that i want us to discuss
the future of Ion, not the future of ion users! everybody can switch a
non-dead WM if they really want to, but this should be a thread for
people who don't...


regards,
M Rawash



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread M Rawash

here's the archived version of ion's website if anybody is interested:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080516110658/http://modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~tuomov/ion/


i'm also interested in getting all the ion3-related code out there, can
somebody help? here's the list of all of tuomo's repos as they stood in
Jan 2007:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ywt5AFIyKuUJ:www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/repos/+www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/reposcd=1hl=enct=clnkie=UTF-8

i already have ion-3plus, ion-doc-3, ion-scripts-3, libextl-3 and
libtu-3, and i'll probably be uploading them to git a repo soon. i'd
like to get mod_ionflux-3, mod_xrandr-3 (especially the former)

thanks
M Rawash



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread M Rawash
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 10:31 +0200, M Rawash wrote:

 ... as they stood in
 Jan 2007:

scratch that, i found a google-cached version that was more recent and
forgot to delete this part.



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Ole Jørgen Brønner

http://folk.ntnu.no/bronner/temp/mod_ionflux-3.repo.tgz


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Ole Jørgen Brønner

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 00:54:31 +0200, M Rawash mraw...@gmail.com wrote:


now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection with
ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now?

I spent the last few days committedly trying out other WMs, and i can
say this with absolute certainty: there's nothing out there that's even
comparable! (the closest thing i could find, in terms of
what-you-can-do, was 'awesome', but it subscribes to a very different
philosophy than ion's, and is kind of a mess)

so, I need to hear some ideas about the future of this project (not
simply suggestions for other WM's; i will NOT switch to anything that's
currently on the market, and that's my final decision!), I do have a few
ideas of my own, but i want to know what everybody else thinks; after
all, I'm just new-comer compared to the majority of the remaining users
here (been using Ion for only a few months now), I don't know anything
about the community (or what's left of it), how it works, or how the
author's actions affected it. so i think it's best of somebody else took
the initiative and got this conversation going...

regards,
M Rawash



Well, ion is mostly stable and complete, but it does have some problems with 
certain software (java software particularly) and, if I've understood 
correctly, it's desirable to get better multihead support. It would be fun to 
see a graphic engine with support for icons/more control over individual tab 
colors too.

How many are familiar at all with the source? I've poked around quite a bit, 
and uses a slightly modified ion3-plus daily. I don't have much time in the 
nearest future however.

-- Ole Jørgen Brønner



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Aron Griffis
Ole Jørgen Brønner wrote:  [Mon Apr 05 2010, 08:18:53AM EDT]
Well, ion is mostly stable and complete, but it does have some
problems with certain software (java software particularly)

also the fullscreen flash problem

and,
if I've understood correctly, it's desirable to get better
multihead support.

this is right next to integration of xrandr on my wishlist

It would be fun to see a graphic engine with support for
icons/more control over individual tab colors too.

How many are familiar at all with the source? I've poked around
quite a bit, and uses a slightly modified ion3-plus daily.
I don't have much time in the nearest future however.

I'm somewhat familiar with the source.  Like you, I don't have
much time presently though. :-(

Here's more from my wishlist:

 * EWMH support to make ion3 integrate more completely in
   desktop environments such as gnome. I wrote a tiny module
   that updates the pager, but it's not sufficient to allow the
   pager to control ion3:

 http://n01se.net/paste/hYW -- ewmh_pager.lua

 * Migrate more core functionality to lua to minimize the
   portion written in C. For example I re-implemented
   maximization in lua because the version in C was too
   limited and wasn't extensible. (This is for floating
   workspaces.) The same module provides sawfish-like window
   pushing and maximize-fill.

 http://n01se.net/paste/JjS -- directions.lua

Aron


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Ivan Vilata i Balaguer
Aron Griffis (el 2010-04-05 a les 07:48:21 -0400) va dir::

 If I can suggest a name for an ion3 fork, how about notion :-)

*The exact* name I had always thought about for an Ion fork, since nothing
fulfils better Tuomo's requirement for substantially different forks not to be
called Ion, i.e. to be called not Ion. :D

Premonitorily +1

::

  Ivan Vilata i Balaguer -- http://ivan.lovesgazpacho.net/


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Javier Rojas
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 02:58:57PM +0200, Ivan Vilata i Balaguer wrote:
 Aron Griffis (el 2010-04-05 a les 07:48:21 -0400) va dir::
 
  If I can suggest a name for an ion3 fork, how about notion :-)
 
 *The exact* name I had always thought about for an Ion fork, since nothing
 fulfils better Tuomo's requirement for substantially different forks not to be
 called Ion, i.e. to be called not Ion. :D
 
 Premonitorily +1

regardless of what ends up being the name, I'd like to suggest that the
name must be an easily searchable word; notion isn't, although I like
it.

I also have another suggestion (that suffers from the same problem
stated above): cation.

 
 ::
 
   Ivan Vilata i Balaguer -- http://ivan.lovesgazpacho.net/



-- 
Javier Rojas

GPG Key ID: 0x24E00D68


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread M Rawash
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 07:48 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
 If I can suggest a name for an ion3 fork, how about notion :-)

people won't be sure how to pronounce it (notion/not-ion), prefect.

wow, caught fire a little early than i thought we would. +1


M Rawash



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Klaus Umbach
Hello my dear, suffering comrades,

first of all: I found a recent documentation as PDF in my browser-cache:
http://tmp.uxix.de/ionconf.pdf

Since I am using ion3 (and before...) I am looking for a better
windowmanager, but I couldn't find anything that is even close to being at
least as good as ion3.

I personally would like to have something like awesome is to wmii/dwm for
ion3.

Unfortunatelly I can't call myself a programmer (I do speak a little
Python, but not enough to even know where to start to write a
windowmanager). But I would happily contribute to such a project with
webspace, git/subversion, wiki, mail and other infrastructure, if one
doesn't want to use something like sourceforge or github.

name suggestion: Positron (with a positive attitude! Happy, Happy - Joy,
Joy!)

I would also like to assemble a whole desktop-environment in that style
(PDE) (optionally). I personally don't use ion3 because it is lightweight
but because it is usable (after adding mod_xinerama).

-
Klaus



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Evgeny Kurbatov
On Mon, 2010-04-05 at 08:19 -0500, Javier Rojas wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 02:58:57PM +0200, Ivan Vilata i Balaguer wrote:
  Aron Griffis (el 2010-04-05 a les 07:48:21 -0400) va dir::
  
   If I can suggest a name for an ion3 fork, how about notion :-)
  
  *The exact* name I had always thought about for an Ion fork, since nothing
  fulfils better Tuomo's requirement for substantially different forks not to 
  be
  called Ion, i.e. to be called not Ion. :D
  
  Premonitorily +1
 
 regardless of what ends up being the name, I'd like to suggest that the
 name must be an easily searchable word; notion isn't, although I like
 it.
 
 I also have another suggestion (that suffers from the same problem
 stated above): cation.

Maybe neon ?


Best witches,
Evgeny



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Aron Griffis
Javier Rojas wrote:  [Mon Apr 05 2010, 09:19:56AM EDT]
 regardless of what ends up being the name, I'd like to suggest that the
 name must be an easily searchable word; notion isn't, although I like
 it.

I personally don't think that's really an issue. People will
inevitably search for notion window manager and that will work.



Re: so, what now?

2010-04-05 Thread Jens Jahnke
Hi,

On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:05:53 +0200
Klaus Umbach treibholz-...@sozial-inkompetent.de wrote:

KU Since I am using ion3 (and before...) I am looking for a better
KU windowmanager, but I couldn't find anything that is even close to
KU being at least as good as ion3.

I agree. Ion3 currently beats them all although it has it's problems.

Does anyone know how to get the source? Last time I checked the webpage
it was down.

Regards,

Jens

-- 
05. Ostermond 2010, 17:22
Homepage : http://www.jan0sch.de

Zoe: Sir, we don't want to deal with Patience again.

Mal: Why not?

Zoe: She shot you.

Mal: Well, yeah, she did a bit...
--Episode #1, Serenity


pgpriQJUnOWNJ.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: so, what now?

2010-04-04 Thread Mikle Krutov
On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 12:54:31AM +0200, M Rawash wrote:
 now that tuomov has finally severed his last remaining connection with
 ion, what do we (committed ion users) do now? 
 
 I spent the last few days committedly trying out other WMs, and i can
 say this with absolute certainty: there's nothing out there that's even
 comparable! (the closest thing i could find, in terms of
 what-you-can-do, was 'awesome', but it subscribes to a very different
 philosophy than ion's, and is kind of a mess)
 
 so, I need to hear some ideas about the future of this project (not
 simply suggestions for other WM's; i will NOT switch to anything that's
 currently on the market, and that's my final decision!), I do have a few
 ideas of my own, but i want to know what everybody else thinks; after
 all, I'm just new-comer compared to the majority of the remaining users
 here (been using Ion for only a few months now), I don't know anything
 about the community (or what's left of it), how it works, or how the
 author's actions affected it. so i think it's best of somebody else took
 the initiative and got this conversation going...
Firstly, why not to fork ion3 to add needed functionality? (i do not know is 
there any 'no forks' etc in it's license because the ion3's page is down)
Secondly, there was some project like 'ion3 with scripts in python but without 
tuomo', unfortunately i can not give you it's name or link to it. It was dead 
when i lurked about it, but it has no licensing problems - so you can just fork 
it and write the code you need. 
Also, i know that xmonad or stumpwm could both be a good alternative for the 
static-frames-with-tabs wm behavior, first only after huge code-writing using 
the existing modules (XMonad.Tabs), and second pretty out-of-box - only one 
thing bothers me - for both of them i need to learn completely unknowm 
programming languages - so i'm stick with ion, too. And both of them lack for 
scratchpad-like function, while i'm using it.
But i do not see any argument why i should ever bother finding alternative to 
ion, e.g. - it has all the functions i need, out-of-the-box or with plugins, it 
is stable, it builds with current x-libraries, etc.
-- 
Wbr,
Krutov Mikle