Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Brian E Carpenter 
On 15/10/2016 00:57, Holger Zuleger wrote:
>> If the delegated prefix changes, you'll be simply postponing the local
>> communication failure, not prevent it.
> Only if the new prefix is different to the old one.
> 
>> The last year has convinced me that the best user experience is
>> achieved by having an in-home stable ULA prefix to complement the
>> ISP-delegated global prefix[es] [if any], and that all the internal
>> hostnames should resolve to the IPv6 addresses assigned from the ULA
>> prefix.
> Yes, but this is probably a bit different to the AVM behavior. I have in
> mind that the default configuration on Fritzboxes is to announce the ULA
> *only* if the upstream is down. 

Correct, there is an option to change that however.

   Brian

> Then your local active sessions breaks
> twice.

Re: DHCPv6 client in Windows 10 broken after anniversary update

2016-10-14 Thread Brzozowski, John Jason 
Has this been confirmed?  What is next?

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 5:59 AM, Harald F. Karlsen  wrote:

> On 11.10.2016 18:37, Marcus Keane wrote:
>
>> We've raised it with the product group and we are investigating further.
>>
> Great! Also feel free to keep us updated on any findings here on the list
> (especially the ship vehicle and date for the fix).
>
> --
> Harald
>

Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Holger Zuleger 


On 14.10.2016 15:20, sth...@nethelp.no wrote:
>> At the end, the whole behavior is because some host have problems in
>> handling situations where they have an IPv6 address configured and now
>> internet connectivity. But the solution to this requires that the host
>> is able to understand and work with RIO options, which seams to be "at
>> the time" not generally the case.
>>
>> Do we replace one evil by another?
> 
> I like Tore's solution of using ULA for local communication even when
> the external link is down.
That's not the question. The question is: Should a router stop
advertising a default route if the (or better say "his") upstream link
is down.

 Holger




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Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread sthaug 
> At the end, the whole behavior is because some host have problems in
> handling situations where they have an IPv6 address configured and now
> internet connectivity. But the solution to this requires that the host
> is able to understand and work with RIO options, which seams to be "at
> the time" not generally the case.
> 
> Do we replace one evil by another?

I like Tore's solution of using ULA for local communication even when
the external link is down.

Steinar Haug, AS2116

Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread otroan 
Holger,

>>> Imagine a setup with *two* routers.  One of them has broken Internet,
>>> the other is working.  How can the hosts decide if both keep announcing
>>> themselves as "I can reach anything"?
>> 
>> in the general case the host still has to take the 'I can reach anything' 
>> announcement with a pinch of salt.
>> and it should be able to try both (or more) connections and react 
>> accordingly when one fails.
> ...which is the default host behaviour if the OS supports RFC4861.
> Sadly some "user friendly" network mangers breaks this and setting a
> static route with a better metric to just one(!) router.

not really. that only covers the first hop. any failure anywhere else along the 
path would not be dealt with by 4861.

cheers,
Ole

Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread Paul Stewart 
Yes and my understanding with ECMP on the network side is that this is exactly 
what’s happening … and that’s what Cloudflare blog entry is referring to as 
well …

I need to dig into this further - their code on Github for the fix I don’t 
believe will work in our network architecture…  although we are thinking of a 
redesign on that area so now would be a great chance to fix this too :)

> On Oct 14, 2016, at 8:17 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> 
>> Up to now, every time I’ve seen this problem was just related to ICMPv6 
>> being filtered, as many folks do in IPv4 …
> 
> I know several cases where the problem was that the load balancer didn't 
> forward the ICMPv6 PTB to the correct host and didn't handle it itself. No 
> filtering, just bad vendor implementation or "oh, didn't think of that".
> 
> That's why I don't like people using the word "filtering", because this not 
> working isn't always intentional. "Filtering" implies intent.
> 
> -- 
> Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
Right I missed that too, and now reading the article instead of “quick review”, 
I think the solution is there:

https://github.com/cloudflare/pmtud


Saludos,
Jordi


-Mensaje original-
De:  en nombre de 
Paul Stewart 
Responder a: 
Fecha: viernes, 14 de octubre de 2016, 14:09
Para: Mikael Abrahamsson 
CC: , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 

Asunto: Re: contact with One & One ?

You are correct - i misspoke on that … the reported issue from some 
visitors is site doesn’t load.  Sorry for the confusion - need more caffeine 
this morning :)

> On Oct 14, 2016, at 8:05 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, Paul Stewart wrote:
> 
>> honestly we’ve never fixed it.  it works for lots of customer/visitors 
but breaks for others (and they fail back to IPv4) - we thought it was
> 
> Errr, how does this fallback work? I am not aware of any such mechanism.
> 
> Happy Eyeballs is done when the SYN+ACK gets back.
> 
> -- 
> Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se






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Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Holger Zuleger 
>> Imagine a setup with *two* routers.  One of them has broken Internet,
>> the other is working.  How can the hosts decide if both keep announcing
>> themselves as "I can reach anything"?
> 
> in the general case the host still has to take the 'I can reach anything' 
> announcement with a pinch of salt.
> and it should be able to try both (or more) connections and react accordingly 
> when one fails.
...which is the default host behaviour if the OS supports RFC4861.
Sadly some "user friendly" network mangers breaks this and setting a
static route with a better metric to just one(!) router.

Holger



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Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread Paul Stewart 
You are correct - i misspoke on that … the reported issue from some visitors is 
site doesn’t load.  Sorry for the confusion - need more caffeine this morning :)

> On Oct 14, 2016, at 8:05 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, Paul Stewart wrote:
> 
>> honestly we’ve never fixed it.  it works for lots of customer/visitors but 
>> breaks for others (and they fail back to IPv4) - we thought it was
> 
> Errr, how does this fallback work? I am not aware of any such mechanism.
> 
> Happy Eyeballs is done when the SYN+ACK gets back.
> 
> -- 
> Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson 

On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, Paul Stewart wrote:

honestly we’ve never fixed it.  it works for lots of customer/visitors 
but breaks for others (and they fail back to IPv4) - we thought it was


Errr, how does this fallback work? I am not aware of any such mechanism.

Happy Eyeballs is done when the SYN+ACK gets back.

--
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
The issue here is that customers (the ones that browse the broken web sites), 
don’t know about MTU, ICMP, etc.

So I guess is in your side as the “provider” of the content, who is the 
interested party in making sure it works for “all” your possible customers.

Up to now, every time I’ve seen this problem was just related to ICMPv6 being 
filtered, as many folks do in IPv4 …


By the way, interesting article, I didn’t read it before:
https://blog.cloudflare.com/path-mtu-discovery-in-practice/


Saludos,
Jordi


-Mensaje original-
De:  en nombre de 
Paul Stewart 
Responder a: 
Fecha: viernes, 14 de octubre de 2016, 13:52
Para: Mikael Abrahamsson 
CC: , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 

Asunto: Re: contact with One & One ?

At $$$job we run quite a bit of dual stack towards customers as an ISP 
(mainly PPPoE) - our own public website fails the PTB test and quite honestly 
we’ve never fixed it.  it works for lots of customer/visitors but breaks for 
others (and they fail back to IPv4) - we thought it was only external tunnel 
visitors but have found out otherwise… never fully understood what was going on 
and I keep meaning to look at it .. 

NGINX front ends load balanced via anycast … pretty standard Ubuntu 
16.04LTS setup on the server side.  From what I’ve read it seems to be an ECMP 
related problem like what CloudFlare published a blog about … 

Paul

> On Oct 14, 2016, at 7:45 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> 
>> I think is time to retire happy-eye-balls, it is the only way the people 
will react to those issues!
> 
> Happy eyeballs doesn't solve PMTU blackhole.
> 
> So this is actually customer breakage occuring, but I imagine lots of 
ISPs are actually doing MSS re-write and/or announcing lower than 1500 MTU on 
the customer LAN, so even if a customer has PPPoE with 1492 MTU, they still 
won't see this problem.
> 
> I have seen swedish authorities websites with same 
"won't-respond-to-PTB", no answer there either to fault reports.
> 
> -- 
> Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se






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Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Holger Zuleger 
> If the delegated prefix changes, you'll be simply postponing the local
> communication failure, not prevent it.
Only if the new prefix is different to the old one.

> The last year has convinced me that the best user experience is
> achieved by having an in-home stable ULA prefix to complement the
> ISP-delegated global prefix[es] [if any], and that all the internal
> hostnames should resolve to the IPv6 addresses assigned from the ULA
> prefix.
Yes, but this is probably a bit different to the AVM behavior. I have in
mind that the default configuration on Fritzboxes is to announce the ULA
*only* if the upstream is down. Then your local active sessions breaks
twice.

 Holger




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Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread Paul Stewart 
At $$$job we run quite a bit of dual stack towards customers as an ISP (mainly 
PPPoE) - our own public website fails the PTB test and quite honestly we’ve 
never fixed it.  it works for lots of customer/visitors but breaks for others 
(and they fail back to IPv4) - we thought it was only external tunnel visitors 
but have found out otherwise… never fully understood what was going on and I 
keep meaning to look at it .. 

NGINX front ends load balanced via anycast … pretty standard Ubuntu 16.04LTS 
setup on the server side.  From what I’ve read it seems to be an ECMP related 
problem like what CloudFlare published a blog about … 

Paul

> On Oct 14, 2016, at 7:45 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> 
>> I think is time to retire happy-eye-balls, it is the only way the people 
>> will react to those issues!
> 
> Happy eyeballs doesn't solve PMTU blackhole.
> 
> So this is actually customer breakage occuring, but I imagine lots of ISPs 
> are actually doing MSS re-write and/or announcing lower than 1500 MTU on the 
> customer LAN, so even if a customer has PPPoE with 1492 MTU, they still won't 
> see this problem.
> 
> I have seen swedish authorities websites with same "won't-respond-to-PTB", no 
> answer there either to fault reports.
> 
> -- 
> Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Holger Zuleger 


On 14.10.2016 12:32, Gert Doering wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 12:00:04PM +0200, Holger Zuleger wrote:
>> Of course the default route should *not* be withdrawn.
>> The RA default router announcement says just, "Hey hosts, I'm the way
>> out of your local subnet", and not "Hey host, I have a upstream
>> connection to the rest of the internet".
> 
> If the router has no default route, it should not announce one - this
> is why PIO exists for more specific info.
For cases where a router provides "in principle" only connectivity to a
limited set of prefixes (think of VPN connection) I'm with you.

> Imagine a setup with *two* routers.  One of them has broken Internet,
> the other is working.  How can the hosts decide if both keep announcing
> themselves as "I can reach anything"?
This is just a corner case if both routers have directly the upstream
connection. But then this behavior make only sense if the same prefix is
used for both upstreams, which is seldom the case in residential user
scenarios.
Otherwise you have a lot to do with source specific routing, and yes,
you are right: In this case the source specific default route for the
failed prefix should no longer announced.

Holger Zuleger




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Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
I don’t think it will help …

I’ve got several of their customers, several *months* ago, which opened a 
ticket, and they didn’t get a solution/response …

It may happen that the folks in the ticketing system don’t understand the 
problem or don’t scale it or whatever …

I think is time to retire happy-eye-balls, it is the only way the people will 
react to those issues!

That’s why, the ideal will be to have a direct contact with the team that is 
working on IPv6 …

Saludos,
Jordi


-Mensaje original-
De:  en nombre de 
Kurt Jaeger 
Responder a: 
Fecha: viernes, 14 de octubre de 2016, 12:58
Para: Mikael Abrahamsson 
CC: 
Asunto: Re: contact with One & One ?

Hi!

> > www.corso-kino.de
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> If it helps, point them to this website (still in development/beta):
> 
> https://ipv6alizer.se/
> 
> The result is (verifies what you said):
> 
> INFO:  server-mss 1440, result: pmtud-fail
> ERROR: http://www.corso-kino.de don't listen to PTB

Thanks. It's just around the corner, and I think I can
get them to open a ticket with 1und1 8-}

-- 
p...@opsec.eu+49 171 3101372 4 years to 
go !





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Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Tore Anderson 
* Holger Zuleger 

> Hmm, what's so bad with still using the global prefix until the global
> connectivity comes back and the CPE gets a new one?
> Than it's early enough to set the preferred time of the former prefix to
> 0 and let them time out.
> In this way all local communication will not be interrupted if your
> Internet connection fails.

If the delegated prefix changes, you'll be simply postponing the local
communication failure, not prevent it.

I've run Homewrt for over a year now and have no shortage of annoying
experiences like for instance a movie that is being streamed to my HTPC
from my NAS just suddenly freeze just because the Internet uplink have
gone down and/or the delegated prefix changes.

The last year has convinced me that the best user experience is
achieved by having an in-home stable ULA prefix to complement the
ISP-delegated global prefix[es] [if any], and that all the internal
hostnames should resolve to the IPv6 addresses assigned from the ULA
prefix.

Tore

Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread Kurt Jaeger 
Hi!

> > www.corso-kino.de
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> If it helps, point them to this website (still in development/beta):
> 
> https://ipv6alizer.se/
> 
> The result is (verifies what you said):
> 
> INFO:  server-mss 1440, result: pmtud-fail
> ERROR: http://www.corso-kino.de don't listen to PTB

Thanks. It's just around the corner, and I think I can
get them to open a ticket with 1und1 8-}

-- 
p...@opsec.eu+49 171 3101372 4 years to go !

Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
There’re tons of them !



Here are a couple of PMTUD test:


tbit from 2001:df0:4:4000::1:115 to 2001:8d8:1001:238f:3cf1:2223:88f2:c80a
server-mss 1440, result: pmtud-fail
app: http, url: http://diskmakerx.com/
[  0.009] TX SYN 64  seq = 0:0
[  0.288] RX SYN/ACK 64  seq = 0:1
[  0.288] TX 60  seq = 1:1
[  0.298] TX233  seq = 1:1(173)
[  0.577] RX 60  seq = 1:174  
[  0.812] RX   1500  seq = 1:174(1440)
[  0.812] RX   1500  seq = 1441:174(1440)  
[  0.812] RX   1500  seq = 2881:174(1440)  
[  0.812] RX 69  seq = 4321:174(9)
[  0.812] RX   1500  seq = 4330:174(1440)  
[  0.812] RX   1500  seq = 5770:174(1440)  
[  0.812] TX PTB   1280  mtu = 1280
[  0.812] RX   1500  seq = 7210:174(1440)  
[  0.816] RX   1500  seq = 8650:174(1440)  
[  0.822] TX 60  seq = 174:1  
[  0.883] RX   1500  seq = 10090:174(1440)
[  0.892] RX   1500  seq = 11530:174(1440)
[  1.651] RX   1500  seq = 1:174(1440)
[  1.651] TX PTB   1280  mtu = 1280
[  3.335] RX   1500  seq = 1:174(1440)
[  3.335] TX PTB   1280  mtu = 1280
[  6.703] RX   1500  seq = 1:174(1440)
[  6.703] TX PTB   1280  mtu = 1280
[ 13.439] RX   1500  seq = 1:174(1440)


tbit from 2001:df0:4:4000::1:115 to 2001:8d8:1000:d2ea:95d2:30d0:d4ad:9357
server-mss 1440, result: pmtud-fail
app: http, url: http://www.legalveritas.es/
[  0.009] TX SYN 64  seq = 0:0
[  0.285] RX SYN/ACK 64  seq = 0:1
[  0.285] TX 60  seq = 1:1
[  0.297] TX238  seq = 1:1(178)
[  0.572] RX 60  seq = 1:179  
[  0.810] RX   1492  seq = 1:179(1432)
[  0.810] TX PTB   1280  mtu = 1280
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 1433:179(1440)  
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 2873:179(1440)  
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 4313:179(1440)  
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 5753:179(1440)  
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 7193:179(1440)  
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 8633:179(1440)  
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 10073:179(1440)
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 11513:179(1440)
[  0.825] RX   1500  seq = 12953:179(1440)
[  1.636] RX   1492  seq = 1:179(1432)
[  1.636] TX PTB   1280  mtu = 1280
[  3.296] RX   1492  seq = 1:179(1432)
[  3.296] TX PTB   1280  mtu = 1280
[  6.616] RX   1492  seq = 1:179(1432)
[  6.616] TX PTB   1280  mtu = 1280
[ 13.248] RX   1492  seq = 1:179(1432)




Saludos,
Jordi


-Mensaje original-
De:  en nombre de 
Mikael Abrahamsson 
Organización: People's Front Against WWW
Responder a: 
Fecha: viernes, 14 de octubre de 2016, 12:32
Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
CC: 
Asunto: Re: contact with One & One ?

On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I’ve discovered, several months ago already, that all the 1&1 web sites 
> with IPv6 support enabled are broken, because they filter PMTUD, so any 
> residential customer with has a reduced MTU because PPP or any other 
> encapsulation/tunnel, etc., is not reaching them.

Do you have an example of a website they host that I can test against?

-- 
Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se



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Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread Torbjörn Eklöv 

14 okt. 2016 kl. 12:38 skrev Kurt Jaeger 
>:

Hi!

I've discovered, several months ago already, that all the 1&1 web sites
with IPv6 support enabled are broken, because they filter PMTUD, so any
residential customer with has a reduced MTU because PPP or any other
encapsulation/tunnel, etc., is not reaching them.

Do you have an example of a website they host that I can test against?

www.corso-kino.de

Yes, it fails PTB test

https://ipv6alizer.se?address=http://www.corso-kino.de

/Tobbe



--
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   4 years to go !

Re: contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread Kurt Jaeger 
Hi!

> > I've discovered, several months ago already, that all the 1&1 web sites 
> > with IPv6 support enabled are broken, because they filter PMTUD, so any 
> > residential customer with has a reduced MTU because PPP or any other 
> > encapsulation/tunnel, etc., is not reaching them.
> 
> Do you have an example of a website they host that I can test against?

www.corso-kino.de

-- 
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Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Gert Doering 
Hi,

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 12:00:04PM +0200, Holger Zuleger wrote:
> Of course the default route should *not* be withdrawn.
> The RA default router announcement says just, "Hey hosts, I'm the way
> out of your local subnet", and not "Hey host, I have a upstream
> connection to the rest of the internet".

If the router has no default route, it should not announce one - this
is why PIO exists for more specific info.

Imagine a setup with *two* routers.  One of them has broken Internet,
the other is working.  How can the hosts decide if both keep announcing
themselves as "I can reach anything"?

Gert Doering
-- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

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contact with One & One ?

2016-10-14 Thread JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
Hi,

I’ve discovered, several months ago already, that all the 1&1 web sites with 
IPv6 support enabled are broken, because they filter PMTUD, so any residential 
customer with has a reduced MTU because PPP or any other encapsulation/tunnel, 
etc., is not reaching them.

I tried to contact someone at 1&1 and told their customer to pass the message, 
but nobody responded.

Anyone in the list is working for 1&1 or has the right contact?


Regards,
Jordi




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Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Thomas Schäfer 
I was wrong. Randomly set:  no, manually change possible: yes.
The reason for my confusion was "::" versus ":"
Sometimes reading ipv6-addresses is hard.

Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Holger Zuleger 
>> Great idea, ULAs.
> 
> In the right circumstances, yes, actually. And actually my circumstances
> yesterday were right for a ULA prefix: the ISP failed to give my CE a prefix.
> Today, they gave me a prefix, and so Linux gives me a default route.
Hmm, what's so bad with still using the global prefix until the global
connectivity comes back and the CPE gets a new one?
Than it's early enough to set the preferred time of the former prefix to
0 and let them time out.
In this way all local communication will not be interrupted if your
Internet connection fails.

And sending the old prefix as a hint in the DHCPv6-PD reqest let a
chance open to get the same prefix again.
Then local communication will not be affected by the upstream failure at
all.

Of course the default route should *not* be withdrawn.
The RA default router announcement says just, "Hey hosts, I'm the way
out of your local subnet", and not "Hey host, I have a upstream
connection to the rest of the internet".

BR
 Holger




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Re: DHCPv6 client in Windows 10 broken after anniversary update

2016-10-14 Thread Harald F. Karlsen 

On 11.10.2016 18:37, Marcus Keane wrote:

We've raised it with the product group and we are investigating further.
Great! Also feel free to keep us updated on any findings here on the 
list (especially the ship vehicle and date for the fix).


--
Harald

Re: Linux and ULA support and default route

2016-10-14 Thread Thomas Schäfer 

Am 13.10.2016 um 21:56 schrieb Brian E Carpenter:

On 13/10/2016 21:14, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:

Of note is the fact that the ULA prefix being announced is the ubiquitous
fd00::/64.


0 is a perfectly random number, just like the ubiquitous PIN code 1234.

But yes, this a sloppy job by the FritzBox. Hopefully they've fixed this in
more recent models.


It is fixed. In newer versions it is a random number and can 
additionally changed manually.


Thomas




--

There’s no place like ::1

Thomas Schäfer (Systemverwaltung)
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität
Centrum für Informations- und Sprachverarbeitung
Oettingenstraße 67 Raum C109
80538 München ☎ +49/89/2180-9706  ℻ +49/89/2180-9701