Before I respond to the rest of Ardeshirs ramblings, I want to correct one error I made in my earlier post. I stated: The overthrow of Spain came from outside with Charles Martel and his barbarous European hordes. Charles Martel defeated the Muslims at the Battle of Tours in 732 AD at the south of France. He never conquered Spain. It was in 1492 that Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella finally conquered Spain.
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| When legalities are involved, Muslims have to go by what the laws of Islam dictates -- whereas non-Muslims have a choice. They could go by their own laws or choose to accept Muslim laws. History is resplendent with examples with
non-Muslims choosing Sharia laws to be judged by over their own laws. Ardeshir wrote: Yes, that is true - historically. Indeed people have often chosen to be judged by authorities like a king or a duke. But that doesn't mean that judgement by an authority like a king or a duke is *good in principle*! It simply means that these people did so choose. |
Er when did I ever mention Dukes and Kings regarding Sharia Law? Again, Sharia Law is based on the Quran and authentic examples of Prophet Muhammad. Islam is against monarchy. There were never Kings and Dukes existing under true Sharia rule. Although Saudi Arabia and many other so-called Muslim nations have Kings, they were installed by Europeans and are against the Quran. Why do you think so many devout Muslims are angry with their leaders and their forms of government? You need to stop rambling Ardeshir!!!
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| My, my you sure did assume a heck of a lot based on part 1 of my essay. More than to satisfy the requirements for democracy, trials under Sharia are more concerned with satisfying the requirement to please G-d. Ardeshir wrote: Exactly. This is the whole point which I was making - Islamic rule is *not* democratic! Thanks for admitting it. |
Ah, your holy of holies democracy! Pssst Ardeshir being more concerned about satisfying the requirement to please G-d, does not negate democracy. In fact much of what you call democracy already existed in the Quran. Muslims believe that Sharia, being divine, surpasses democracy and much of what you call democracy came from the Quran. You need to look at what the democracy builders built, and where they acquired the plans.
Find federalism, the confederation of autonomous and independent, self-governing states, in the Bible ... it's not there. Find it in Greece, in Rome, in any of the claimed progenitors of the American Republic ... it's not there. All you will find are autocratic monocracies, you will not even find comity but only the expedience of relations between singular monopolistic potentates who are respecters of no authority but their own.
Find the prohibition of religious compulsion in the Bible ... anywhere, Old or New. No, rather we find foundations of coercion, license for genocide against the "faithless" of other communions. Beyond the "authorized" congregants, all others are savage and subhuman, devoid of grace or letters and in need of redemption or death.
The idea of man and freedom in the Constitution is more in line with the Islamic idea of man than the Christian idea of man. The freedom to pursue life, liberty and excellence are ideas espoused in the Quran.
The Declaration of Independence of the USA was in reality no more than a re-discovery of many of the major and basic principles given in the Quran. When Thomas Jefferson wrote down the Declaration of Independence, he was influenced by the natural rights theories of John Locke. It is a known fact that Thomas Jefferson "borrowed" many of his ideas for the Declaration of Independence from John Locke. As it turns out, Locke had a degree in Arabic Studies from Oxford University and "borrowed" many of his ideas from the Qur'an. Interesting, the roots of American democracy was in Al-Islam. Rather than deal with that in depth here, I will write another essay entitled Sharia versus Democracy that explores that connection.
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| I understand your sympathies for criminals. That is a peculiar characteristic of the Western mind. Although it has been pointed out very clearly that the punishment for amputating the hand is not administered to those in need but to those in greed. Ardeshir wrote: I know that. But the punishment still is far more harsh than the crime itself. Consider: if I have my car stolen, even if it were brand new, I can work hard for five years or less, and save enough money to buy another. Indeed my insurance will pay for a huge chunk of it - even all of it if I have enough coverage. How long would the criminal have to work, Nashid, to buy himself another hand? |
Yes, and the criminal who got away is encouraged to steal again and again and perhaps in the process committing greater crimes, even murder. How long would the murdered have to work to buy themselves another life Ardeshir? No, cutting the hand is a most merciful punishment that stops the crook in his tracks and serves as an excellent example to deter others from stealing. The person is not taken out of circulation for many years where he or she may have a dependent family who will be hurt by their lack of presence. But they are still able to function albeit without one hand.
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| In Islam we are taught that we should not insult the sacred beliefs of others for fear that they out of ignorance will insult G-d. We are taught that we can criticize but we should do so following the way of the Prophets with the tools
of truth and dignity. That is a sure way of liberating ourselves from the inner, rude and uncivilized slave master. Ardeshir wrote:This is right only from a personal point of view. Not from a social point of view. To explain: Each person should say to *himself* "I will try to be respectful, I will try not to insult people - because if I do such things I will just amass bad *karma* for myself" (or words to that effect). But no one *else* has the right to say to him. "*You* must be respectful, and not insult others, otherwise you will be punished"! It is important to realise that society *must* allow everyone the right to offend, because there is no guarantee that the person who is offended is not wrong! |
You still have not answered my question, What makes you think that being a slave to your lower inclinations and the tendency to insult and disrespect others is true freedom? Pssst Ardeshir, true freedom is not only being free from the domination of others, but also being free from the domination of your lower self and evil inclinations. Sharia does not force good behavior on people, rather it encourages it and also advocates standing up for what one feels is right. The Prophet said, The most excellent jihad is the uttering of truth in the presence of an unjust ruler. The Quran also says:
"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as
witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or
your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against)
rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow
not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if
ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily
God is well- acquainted with all that ye do."
(4:135)
So within Sharia is the right to dissent and speak against those things that are wrong. It also goes further with fighting the internal slave master of low inclinations, rudeness, etc. as stated in the verse above, even as against yourselves.
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| The Quran itself invites criticism. It boldly challenges human beings to come up with something superior to it. Ardeshir wrote: In *my* opinion, Beethoven's Ninth Symphony *is* superior to the Qr'an - there is not a single boring passage in the former, while in the latter there are plenty! I submit that the superiority of the Qr'an has been challenged even by the Great Pyramid of Egypt, which (in its original form, not in its now-dilapidated form) was absolutely perfect in form, and in no place boring. I submit that the superiority of the Qr'an is challenged by the *Tao Teh Ching* of Lao Tzu. I submit that the superiority of the Qr'an has been challenged by logic itself - than which not even God can rise higher! I submit that there are indeed *many* things superior to the Qr'an. I am sure many, perhaps most, other non-Muslims will say the same thing. But if only Muslims are allowed to judge what is superior to the Qr'an, how can that be a fair judgement? |
Yes, and I submit that a person who judges a light bulb to be both brighter and bigger than a star is judging too far from a distance and only from his own reference point with no true contact with a star! I submit that such a person is limited in his sight, only seeing things from his own reference point. For surely if they were to get close to the star, they will see that it is billions of times brighter and larger than the light bulb. The Quran is like a star that you are too far away from to appreciate its magnitude and enormous bright light.
The accomplishments brought about by the teachings of the Quran are unequal in the annals of history. The words from the Quran were powerful enough to take a backwards, uncivilized, tribal and uneducated bunch of Arabs subsisting in the desert, and make them the torch bearers of learning, civilization, culture and science to the world. Among the Qurans numerous and illustrious accomplishments is providing the spark that brought about a European Renaissance that brought Europe out of the Dark Ages.
I can go on and on about the Quran that you are too distant from to see and appreciate. But for me and millions of other converts to Al-Islam, there is not one chapter, verse or sentence in the Quran that is boring. I have been a Muslim now for more than 30 years. Every Ramadan we read the entire Quran. Good Muslims read the Quran everyday. I can honestly tell you that each time I read the Quran I find it to be most refreshing, enlightening and never boring. What you need to do Ardeshir is to stop seeing the Quran as a star from a distance and come up close to truly understand what it is saying. Thousands of Americans have since 911 and their number one reason for accepting Al-Islam was reading the Quran. This was despite all the negativity surrounding Al-Islam and Muslims after 911.
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| Ardeshir wrote: But would you accept *my* judgement in this regard? Or would you accept only the judgement of a Muslim, who by definition has got to be biased? |
Now who the hell are you for me to accept judgment from? You have no in-depth knowledge or special insights to offer. Just ego, ramblings and your own prejudices based on ignorance. Oh and lest I forget And Bingo was His name .O! I accept what I see from the Quran for myself as do millions of Muslims. If we are blessed, as Muslims are in the US, to have a Master Teacher like Imam Warith Deen Mohammed to give us further insights, then we are eternally grateful. But your pea brained judgments carry no weight with us.
Salaam
"Strive as in a race to achieve the
goal of excellence in all that you do."
For real insights visit:
http://www.geocities.com/mewatch99/
Regards,
Nashid
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{Invite (mankind, O Muhammad ) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'an) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.}
(Holy Quran-16:125)
{And who is better in speech than he who [says: "My Lord is Allah (believes in His Oneness)," and then stands straight (acts upon His Order), and] invites (men) to Allah's (Islamic Monotheism), and does righteous deeds, and says: "I am one of the Muslims."} (Holy Quran-41:33)
The prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "By Allah, if Allah guides one person by you, it is better for you than the best types of camels." [al-Bukhaaree, Muslim]
The prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also said, "Whoever calls to guidance will have a reward similar to the reward of the one who follows him, without the reward of either of them being lessened at all."
[Muslim, Ahmad, Aboo Daawood, an-Nasaa'ee, at-Tirmidhee, Ibn Maajah]
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